UPS is working on a fleet of 50 custom-built electric delivery trucks

136 points by hackme1234 7 years ago | 73 comments
  • Jakob 7 years ago
    Germany’s Post Office built and used ~2,000 custom-built electric delivery trucks in 2016 and deployed ~10.000 per year since 2017.

    UPS’s 50 seems very low for 2018 in comparison.

    One article about them: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-24/even-germ... They are called StreetScooter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StreetScooter

    • jcrawfordor 7 years ago
      I can't help but notice that the StreetScooter is significantly smaller than a typical UPS truck. It looks in the size range of a Ford Transit Connect, while most UPS trucks are Utilimaster curb vans that are something like 25' in length. I suspect that the balance of vehicle size and mileage might make this kind of adoption rather difficult for UPS - I live in a city, but not a very dense one, where I'm pretty confident that UPS trucks can regularly clock a couple of hundred miles per day.

      Incidentally this city is also in the process of adopting a fleet of battery-electric transit buses, but it's been a very rough process for the same sorts of reasons - very large vehicles that run very long routes in this relatively far-flung city. The buses failure in testing to deliver the promised 270 mile range has been a major issue with them, as the roughly 200 they're able to do isn't sufficient to complete their planned schedule.

      • fencepost 7 years ago
        In at least some parts of Germany they're more likely to encounter narrow streets where the typical US brown UPS truck might have real difficulty navigating.

        I also suspect that the routes are shorter than you might think, because there are a lot of stops and they are not moving all that fast for most of the trip. I suspect most UPS trucks probably average well under 25 miles per hour for most of their travel which would put an 8 hour day around 200 miles. In denser areas like cities it could be significantly less than that. If a truck makes a 1-minute stop to toss a package on your porch then drives half a mile in another minute and repeats, it's still only covering 15 miles and 30 packages an hour.

        I wouldn't be surprised if UPS trucks within cities tended to be below 50 miles/day most of the time, and since they control driving routes very tightly they can easily put these trucks only on appropriate routes.

      • eventualhorizon 7 years ago
        This is a pilot run of 50. Think of them as prototypes. They will use what they learn from these prototypes to build a larger fleet. If they can make these purchase price competitive with their current trucks it will be a huge win.
        • blattimwind 7 years ago
          Meanwhile DHL/Streetscooter has already sold at least a few hundred of these.
          • cptskippy 7 years ago
            Streetscooter's volume is 4 cubic meters, a single UPS truck is closer to 20 cubic meters.

            Saying they should just use Streetscooters is like telling a family of 5 to use a motorcycle.

        • 7 years ago
          • michaelt 7 years ago

              UPS’s 50 seems very low for 2018 in comparison.
            Depending on how your delivery business is structured (customer density, and what type of driver's license your drivers have) your efficiency may be constrained by (a) driving time/distance, (b) vehicle legal curb weight, (c) vehicle reloading time or (d) at-customer delivery time.

            If your company is constrained by (a), (b) or (c) current electric vans will make that limiting factor worse. Post offices are mostly constrained by (d) which makes it easier for them to deploy electric vehicles.

            None of these problems are insurmountable, but current electric trucks aren't drop-in replacements for diesel trucks.

            • oh_sigh 7 years ago
              Keep in mind this is UPS, a private company, and not USPS, the US postal service. The algebra for private companies doing this is different than the government.
              • philfrasty 7 years ago
                German „Deutsche Post“ is not a government owned company (any more). Listed on the stock exchange with 80% of the stocks owned by other than state owned entities.
            • rdl 7 years ago
              I put in a preorder for the Workhorse W-15 pickup at CES (I'd been following them for a year). $1k fully-refundable, same as Model 3.

              http://workhorse.com/pickup/

              80 mile electric-only range is great, and it gets electric incentives (federal and more importantly for me, exempt from 40% import duty to Puerto Rico). The great thing as a pickup truck is it works as a stationary power source for tools, either from battery or generator. It's probably inferior to a Tacoma or something for offroad/etc. use, but is still adequate. Apparently their main market for these is the electric utility market, for outside plant maintenance/etc.

              • slimsag 7 years ago
                I didn't see this mentioned on their site anywhere / had to Google it. The truck is $52,000.. I can't imagine picking that over a Tundra for $31,120.
                • seanmcdirmid 7 years ago
                  Incentives + taxes. I didn't know Puerto Rico normally had a 40% tax on vehicles! Kind of like how a Tesla Model S is economical in Norway given the taxes on the alternatives.
                  • rdl 7 years ago
                    The Puerto Rico tax is...weird. It goes up highly progressively on value (I think 40% over 40k), it seems to be different for importer/dealer vs. individual, etc., but the 2015 electric exemption is nice.

                    (But, in exchange via act 20+22: zero capital gains (LT/ST), zero tax on dividends, and consulting/services/export revenue are taxed at 0-4% -- all guaranteed through at least 2035. Seems to be becoming quite the hub for traders and cryptocurrency people, plus some saas/consultancy types, which becomes interesting to me for network effect reasons.)

              • the-dude 7 years ago
                In The Netherlands, DHL uses bikes : http://www.dhl.com/en/press/releases/releases_2014/express/d...

                I absolutely hate DHL as a recipient in NL, but this is pretty cool. They have other green vehicles too ( gas, electric ).

                • sschueller 7 years ago
                  The Swiss Postal service has a similar fleet of vehicles ranging from hybrid, gas and electric.

                  https://www.post.ch/-/media/post/ueber-uns/medienmitteilunge...

                  https://www.post.ch/de/ueber-uns/unternehmen/medien/medienmi...

                  • jsumrall 7 years ago
                    What do you think about the Picnic delivery trucks?

                    Background: I work at Picnic, an online supermarket in the Netherlands, and we have a large fleet of small electric trucks for delivering in cities and neighborhoods.

                    https://i.imgur.com/Howtq17.jpg

                    • tequila_shot 7 years ago
                      how is gas green?
                      • epicureanideal 7 years ago
                        Maybe they meant natural gas (actual gas) rather than the liquid fuel we call "gas" as short for "gasoline".
                        • fastbeef 7 years ago
                          Biogas can be generated by fermenting sewage. All buses in Stockholm run on it, it burns extremely clean and is carbon-neutral since it utilizes carbon already in the present carbon cycle.
                        • Spooky23 7 years ago
                          Low emissions.

                          The alternative IC engine is typically diesel and spews lots of carcinogenic particles and compounds.

                          • the-dude 7 years ago
                            You may have a point. It burns cleaner ( liquified natural gas ).
                          • zappo2938 7 years ago
                            I rode my push bike from Portland to Cheyenne, WY. I figure I burnt 10,000 calories a day.The environmental cost of logistics of growing and shipping that many human consumable calories probably drastically out weighs that of burning gas in a car to travel that distance. Maybe someone can do the math.
                            • omgwtfbyobbq 7 years ago
                              It depends on what those calories are. If you're eating inexpensive veggies/fruits/starches/grains, you're probably around 200-300mpg equivalent on a bike. If you're eating steaks, then you're probably pretty close to a car.

                              https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/11/mpg-of-a-human/

                              • Armisael16 7 years ago
                                You're doing a lot worse than that if you're hauling mail around.

                                The numbers also get a lot worse once you consider the energy cost of shipping your food to you (as both your article and the person you were responding to noted).

                          • pjc50 7 years ago
                            It's a pity that the UK used to have a huge fleet of low-speed electric doorstep delivery trucks, devoted to milk and groceries; but they were all phased out just prior to the internet era.
                            • Theodores 7 years ago
                              ...along with postmen on bicycles. The Royal Mail moved to hand pushed trolleys for health and safety reasons.

                              I imagine how good that bike fleet would be today if they added electric assistance. Sure bicycles might not be great for the final mile delivery of someone's Amazon order of 50litres of mineral water but that is the point.

                              • Symbiote 7 years ago
                                > The Royal Mail moved to hand pushed trolleys for health and safety reasons.

                                I think it's more likely that they moved to trolleys for cost, and gave the excuse that it was "health and safety".

                                • oger 7 years ago
                                  German post uses both electric pushcarts and electric bicycles...
                              • ams6110 7 years ago
                                UPS has an interesting approach to their trucks. They call them "cars" first of all, and they are a custom design. Nobody else can buy them, and when they wear out and they are done using them they crush them.

                                I never really understood why that made sense, when all the other courier companies use Sprinters or some other standard vehicle. They must see it as a competitive advantage.

                                • MisterTea 7 years ago
                                  They destroy them for brand protection. See this comment: http://hankstruckforum.com/htforum/index.php?PHPSESSID=1e65b...

                                  I once saw a heavy wrecker flatbed in the late 00's hauling three ex-ups trucks with standard shift to the scrap yard. They were hastily painted white with a roller to hide the UPS color and logo but you could still see the logo through the shoddy paint job and brown patches along the edges.

                                  • kalcode 7 years ago
                                    >They destroy them for brand protection. See this comment:

                                    Comment has some sound reasoning why they feel that way.

                                    Curious though, why do you post/take that commen on a forum that was copied from an unnamed forum as fact?

                                    • RyJones 7 years ago
                                      It's a (supposed) copy of a newspaper article.

                                      I searched for the original publication and can't find it.

                                • gt_ 7 years ago
                                  Rural American mail trucks are being replaced with barely-running junk minivans or really whatever can be purchased for the cheapest possible amount, probably the lease emission-aware solution I can think of. I’m not sure if these are workers providing their own transportation on contract or what, but I have seen some very sketchy vehicles delivering mail in multiple states around the US lately.
                                  • Spooky23 7 years ago
                                    Rural delivery has always been private vehicles. Carriers with spouses who have good jobs buy right hand drive Subaru’s. Everyone else drives some hooptie mobile.

                                    A lot of farm spouses used to do this gig. A moderately reliable car and a mechanically inclination is a key to success — cars need brakes every 3-6 weeks.

                                    USPS in general started buying more low bidder commercial vehicles because their package volumes have increased and the bespoke, cheap mail trucks were too small.

                                  • jws 7 years ago
                                    The USPS is in a pinch for vehicles. Their LLVs (the boxy mail truck, Long Life Vehicle) are at end of service life and being extended with costly maintenance. They need to hit alternative fuel targets with the replacements, electric looks like the win for most of the trucks, but they aren't there yet so they keep fixing things.

                                    It seems likely that stopgap vehicles are a reasonable answer. In my suburban area I'm seeing minivans where I used to see LLVs.

                                    There is a nice exposition of LLVs and the electric replacement option here: https://www.greatbusinessschools.org/usps-long-life-vehicle/

                                    • sillyquiet 7 years ago
                                      rural route carriers, who are generally independent contractors working for the USPS to serve low volume highly-dispersed routes, (what used to be called star routes) have provided their own vehicles since forever.
                                    • nwah1 7 years ago
                                      When EVs advertize 100 mile range, that means in the best conditions. Heavy loads would reduce that. Cold weather itself can make your range worse, and additionally any kind of heating or AC will reduce range further.

                                      I recently purchased an EV with a "100 mile range," and it so far hasn't achieved higher than a 70 mile range, given the cold weather, even with 100% charge, no climate control, and no real load. Turn on the heat, and suddenly you lose another 20 miles of range.

                                      And it can take ages to charge, with current technology. I don't think this sounds too practical for deliveries, quite yet. But somehow, there are Lyft and Uber drivers who have these.

                                      • ryanianian 7 years ago
                                        It probably makes most sense in urban areas where a totally full truck can leave the local depot and fully unload in less than 15 miles. That's the case with my local UPS (in the greater NYC area). Electric vehicles are perfect for this scenario.

                                        (This said I'm sure they'll have to have contingency plans for when the things run out of juice but that's probably the same plan they currently have for accidents or breakdowns)

                                        • kwhitefoot 7 years ago
                                          Which EV did you buy? I have a 2015 Tesla S 70D and the weather, heater, etc., don't seem to make as much difference as you say. But it is the only EV that I have any first hand knowledge of.

                                          Mind you, the real range is nearer 200 miles so I rarely need to worry about running out. On a 10 A, 230 V, single phase connection (Norway) it will add more than 80 miles overnight (say 18:00 to 06:00) so it is perfectly practical for everyday use.

                                          At a Tesla Supercharger it takes an hour to go from 20% to 80%, that is adding over 100 miles.

                                          • pedroaraujo 7 years ago
                                            Tesla seems to be the only company nowadays invested in developing an actually good electric vehicles I never understood why the other car companies insist in producing crappy EV products and yet so expensive for what they are worth.

                                            I wouldn't recommend buying an EV that is not Tesla.

                                            • kwhitefoot 7 years ago
                                              What's wrong with Nissan Leaf or Hyundai Ioniq?
                                            • kayamon 7 years ago
                                              A UPS truck probably wouldn't need to turn on the interior heater -- those trucks usually have an open cab anyway, and the driver spends so much of their time outside the vehicle that it's probably not worth the effort.
                                              • antishatter 7 years ago
                                                I wonder if their estimates are taking into account the type of work the truck will be doing.
                                              • madengr 7 years ago
                                                Regeneration makes sense for frequent starts and stops, though delivery drivers often drive pretty aggressively, so I wonder if they will really get 100 miles range with inefficient driving?
                                                • sdfasdasfsf 7 years ago
                                                  Regen cancells some (most?) of "aggressive driving" leaving speed (i.e. wind resistance) as the major killer of range. If they're deployed in thick urban areas that might not be an issue.
                                                  • sokoloff 7 years ago
                                                    With aggressive driving, it's very easy to move braking loads into the friction brakes, making a 100% loss. Even when you cycle energy out of the battery and back in via regen, there are losses (to heat).

                                                    Driving carefully in my LEAF, I can get 4.2-4.5 miles per kWh. Driving like an ass, it's easy to get that figure down under 2.

                                                    • devy 7 years ago
                                                      Agree with what you said mostly. The energy efficiency of EVs are also definitely vehicle dependent (brake regen design, power to weight ratio, power module design, motors, power electronics). I drove an i3 before and was getting 4.6 avg m/kWh and a few times that I've been testing Honda FitEV, that went up to 4.8-5.2 m/kWh without me changing my driving style. But since EV has full torque for the entire range of allowable RPMs, driving aggressive is easier and more manageable. In some of the strong regen EVs like i3, I can get it hover at around 4 m/kwh even with a fairly aggressive driving style (first shooting out of the red light stop, last coming to an stop at the red light etc.)
                                                      • athenot 7 years ago
                                                        Also get 4.2 miles/KWh here. Maybe they will build in some kind of feedback for the trucks. The leaf has (had) the little trees that appear on the dashboard; maybe UPS can track this and issue a token incentive (free meal, bonus) at the end of the month if the delivery schedule is accomplished with less energy.
                                                  • zaroth 7 years ago
                                                    Speaking of custom built electric delivery vehicles...

                                                    I've been thinking of something purpose built to carry only small cargo and no passengers, i.e. 8 cu ft and 100lb total cargo capacity, with a limited range designed to make delivery runs and then return and charge (or maybe just swap power packs).

                                                    Nuro [1] is working on something in this vein. I think their vehicle is much too big personally, I would start with something that could carry maybe 30 lbs and 2 cu ft of cargo and scale up from there. While the walking-speed Starship [2] seems like it went too far in the other direction. But it seems like there is space for a cargo-only vehicle that could be extremely useful in the city, particularly if it's an on-demand model where businesses can hail them with an API call.

                                                    The question is whether a robot like this--which doesn't carry people but still has to operate on the roadways--does it make the AI problem materially easier to solve?

                                                    And in the spirit of fake-it-till-you-make-it, why not launch the service today by paying "operators" to remote control the vehicle over 4G links with just enough software to do collision avoidance and safely pull over if the operator disconnects?

                                                    [1] - https://nuro.ai/ [2] - https://www.starship.xyz/

                                                    • computer22 7 years ago
                                                      They're also purchasing bike trailers in Germany... and will deliver by e-bike. https://www.facebook.com/hinterhercom/photos/a.4964467670573...
                                                      • aventrix 7 years ago
                                                        A bit of an aside, but you have to wonder how much electricity they could save on air conditioning by painting their trucks white instead of brown. Perhaps they don't use any AC at all, which means their delivery drivers are stuck in that solar oven all day. I know they now at least paint the tops of their trucks white.

                                                        Edit: Fixed typo.

                                                        • asteli 7 years ago
                                                          Given that the cab is usually left completely open, and that the cargo area isn't enclosed when it's in use, I'm not sure it makes sense to use aircon in a delivery vehicle,
                                                        • nateguchi 7 years ago
                                                          Royal Mail (in the UK) is currently trialling an electric post van [1].

                                                          [1] https://electrek.co/2017/08/23/royal-mail-new-electric-auton...

                                                          • 7 years ago
                                                            • reaperducer 7 years ago
                                                              FedEx has been using all-electric delivery vehicles in Chicago for at least five years.
                                                              • pvsdileep 7 years ago
                                                                Though UPS is slow in the race it is very good strategy to tackle the problem. Most UPS or USPS vehicles need only 100-150 miles range, they can charge overnight. No need to wait for a crazy vehicle which has 500 mile range
                                                                • ecommerceguy 7 years ago
                                                                  Fantastic. We shipped 17 tons with UPS in the last year, each shipment utilized their carbon neutral shipping option. I'm glad to see the last mile is getting a bit greener and hopefully more efficient.
                                                                  • xxpor 7 years ago
                                                                    Hasn't UPS had all electric trucks in Manhattan for a while now?
                                                                    • ryanianian 7 years ago
                                                                      Not everywhere....There's a diesel UPS truck parked and idling across the street from me in midtown right now...
                                                                    • yorby 7 years ago
                                                                      Around here, UPS also use small vehicles similar to golf carts in the busy seasons
                                                                      • Feniks 7 years ago
                                                                        They'll need this in Europe. Lots of cities are clamping down on pollution.
                                                                        • dx034 7 years ago
                                                                          They already have that. In Germany, mail is delivered by custom-made electric vehicles (streetScooter) and at least in London, UPS already uses electric trucks for delivery.
                                                                          • jsumrall 7 years ago
                                                                            I'm working at an online supermarket called Picnic, in the Netherlands, and we deliver with small electric trucks. It works well in cities and suburban areas. People seem to like seeing the trucks in the neighborhoods compared to larger box trucks used by other delivery companies. It's small and quiet, which makes it less of a nuisance.

                                                                            https://i.imgur.com/Howtq17.jpg

                                                                          • stevenAthompson 7 years ago
                                                                            They can't get UPS WorldShip to print a label properly (after decades of development). I certainly wouldn't want to ride in any vehicle they designed.