How the CIA used Crypto AG encryption devices to spy on countries for decades
962 points by allard 5 years ago | 330 comments- NamTaf 5 years agoReading between the lines on this, it's plainly apparent why there's been repeated attacks on encrpytion by the US government. From this, through RSA's Dual_EC_DRBG, to the present day, it's obvious that the US highly values rigging the deck to aid their decryption, and that the current democratisation of encrpytion protocols is a threat to them.
I mean, you only need to read their repeated admissions that without MINERVA their intelligence recovery would've dropped from ~80% to ~10% to see why they're trying to play the same game plan again and again. Whether that's through puppetmastering encryption companies like in this article, sneaking it in via bribes (RSA's Dual_EC_DRBG), or most recently trying to legislate it through (FB, Whatsapp, etc. E2E encryption), it's all essentially the same play.
As a corollary to all this, it's another point of evidence that strong encryption really is beyond the reach of even the biggest three-letter-acronyms, and that there's no secret sauce technology out there letting them mass-decrypt everything. If there was, then perhaps there wouldn't be such a strong push to rig the deck in the first place. At least that's heartening.
- netsec_burn 5 years agoPutting my tinfoil hat on, after reading the Snowden disclosures I'm convinced that they do have limited means of attacking encrypted communication but they would rather rely on these (expendable) means. Once they lose their crypto vulnerabilities it will force them to be even more overt.
- dmix 5 years agoThe key difference is that decrypting something would likely need to be targeted and on a case-by-case basis, as it would take specialized work, as opposed to these sorts of attacks (much like tapping all of the pipes which transit data underseas or elsewhere, which still goes on in every country or working directly with the ISPs and mobile operators which happens in most countries) which allows mass dragnet surveillance.
I think most of us would be fine with the NSA doing what they do if it was targeted, like the police getting warrants to break privacy only in important cases for public safety.
The problem will always be mass interception. Not only domestically either, as there is nothing protecting any foreign communications being intercepted in the US (and I'm sure Five eyes+ bypasses these legal roadblocks whenever needed). Which is why the push for encrypt-everything is so important. But as we've seen repeatedly, even when investigating the president and his people, even the allegedly "significant domestic protections" offered by FISA are a joke and basically rubber-stamp.
WhatsApp and iMessage and other non-SMS communication as well as email providers finally adopting proper transit encryption probably has reduced the amount of this sort of unfiltered "intelligence" gathering by 90%+. But I'm sure there's still tons of mobile apps and websites which aren't doing things properly and are filling up their databases.
- einpoklum 5 years ago> I think most of us would be fine with the NSA doing what they do if it was targeted
You think wrong. That fact that there are opposing world states engaging in this nefarious, oppressive, terrible acts and they're not all aligned doesn't legitimize any of these states' activities.
The NSA should essentially be shut down, or cut down to a small agency operating in public with a much more limited mandate. And no secret FISA courts all of that spy-movie crap. That should just stop, period.
- maqp 5 years agoiMessage is so riddled with problems from using weak RSA key sizes (1280 bits), to using RSA in the first place (thus no forward secrecy), to apple essentially managing the public keys for the user (which allows transparent MITM due to lack of public key fingerprints).
Also, both iMessage and WhatsApp are proprietary, thus it's almost impossible to verify the code you're running is safe. You're right in that E2EE has become more common, but seeing how the intelligence agencies have targeted major vendors like Crypto AG and RSA, we should be extra careful with popular, proprietary systems.
- AtlasBarfed 5 years agoAll it takes is one elected president who could upend the other branches, and the three letters become much more scary.
But thats just a partisan political beliefs, right?
- tripzilch 5 years ago> I think most of us would be fine with the NSA doing what they do if it was targeted, like the police getting warrants to break privacy only in important cases for public safety.
Except it's not getting a warrant, but simply deciding whether to spend resources. Which is not something that, like a warrant, I would be fine with.
Also there's another difference, technically it'll never really be on a case-by-case basis, because they can store all the encrypted communication (text chats, just store everything, easily). And they can in hindsight decide to decrypt any of that history (depending on ample metadata).
Or maybe they have a tiered system, a first-pass filter that detects a very vague definition of "possibly maybe interesting" (again, metadata) that would never ever pass a warrant request. Then just store everything that passes the filter, forever, and decrypt when needed.
- _-___________-_ 5 years ago> WhatsApp and iMessage
Don't both of these have default/recommended configurations that back up your chats to cloud services?
- einpoklum 5 years ago
- JoeSmithson 5 years agoWhat documents from the Snowden leaks convinced you of that?
- onetimemanytime 5 years agoI think so too but reserve them for Bin Laden or "Iran is planning a Pearl Harbor type attack" cases, otherwise people would stop using these methods of communicating. Maybe very few people within the CIA /NSA even know of such abilities.
- chiefalchemist 5 years agoNo tinfoil hat necessary. You're simply being practical. I mean, only the naive expect honesty from the three-letter acronyms. Honest is not their job.
- totalZero 5 years agoI think this very suspicion is the reason Tor usage inflected down in Germany after the Snowden disclosures.
- nyolfen 5 years agosnowden explicitly said pgp was safe
- tptacek 5 years agoHow on Earth would he know? He's not a cryptographer. Much of what we've learned from the Snowden disclosures has been through experts granted access to the SCIF that houses the documents he exfiltrated. He didn't carefully review those documents before collecting them.
I think it's really difficult to come to any kind of firm conclusion about what NSA can and can't break, even with a background in the material. I tend to doubt NSA has a world-beating RSA class break locked away. But I don't think people should be making decisions based on Snowden's personal technical opinions.
- jMyles 5 years agoHe said that, from his vantage point, analysts at BAH didn't have access to capabilities to break PGP emails.
To be sure, that's an important fact. And it does mean that PGP (and for that matter, similar cryptosystems with robust implementations) create a palpable and useful protection against this kind of analysis.
But in the event that the NSA (or other agencies engaged in signals intelligence) have an attack wholly unknown to the literature, it's unlikely that it will be provided in the same toolchain as hunky-dory man-in-the-middle style attacks, such as those disclosed in Snowden's famous slides.
I'm not saying NSA can break PGP - I think they almost certainly can't. But Snowden's revelation on this point shows only that the analysts he was supporting don't have access to novel attacks, not that novel attacks don't exist.
- maqp 5 years agoWell not exactly. Snowden was extremely vocal about NSA going around encryption and stealing keys from the endpoints. I've collected those statements here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3euYBPlX9LM
PGP uses RSA which means it's not forward secret. That means, when the agencies hack endpoints to steal PGP keys, they can use them to retrospectively decrypt all PGP-encrypted emails that user has received from their contacts, even if the user has deleted the original message long since.
So no, NSA can't break RSA (assuming it's at least 2048 bits) or AES, but they can bypass the encryption by hacking endpoints. PGP's algorithms are not weak, the key management is extremely weak.
- tptacek 5 years ago
- Forgivenessizer 5 years agoSNEAKERNETWORK (an humble submission to cure some crypto ills)
It's time to resurrect the one time pad (not referring here to 2 factor authentication (2FA), I should hope to include 2FA FIDO in a Sneakernetwork standard), but rather the process of generating random data, shared between only two people, for the purpose of the most primitive of systems of encrypted communication. Simplest, but most secure(!!!)
There is a lot of research in this area, and each issue can be addressed (for example, the risk of reuse can be solved in various ways).
What we need is a way to "sneakernetwork" our otp random data to our friends. Like a business card, only where it's a mutual otp between these friends. For most people, 99% of important communications could be handled this way, through only a single contact. Certainly one could easily text for life with a single SDHC card of otp. And an SSD could handle phonecalls. A lifetime of video calls (again, between the two parties) aren't out of reach either.
What we also need is a networking protocol that supports forwarding through the web of trust messages to parties known only at the fringes of one's social network. For example, connections of the 1st degree are sneakernetworked contacts. Like you visit your mother, you share an otp blob. Now, even if your mother is in another country you can never visit, you can always talk to her about politics or religion without any worries about oppressive authorities. But out from there, anyone who is in your mother's 1st degree network can be added to your own 2nd degree network, depending upon her permissions. This kind of p2p interworking.
Before you object that "real" encryption is also needed, I agree, "real" encryption in addition to otp (it needs to be throughout a well-designed sneakernetwork system). But otp is superior, and, if you have to choose, choose otp.
There is no reason why the security of assymmetric encryption should matter to ordinary (or the majority of extraordinary) people.
It might be different for you, but 100% of the people I've had important conversations with have been friends I know from life, family, which I unsurprisingly know from life, and financial institutions of various kinds, which have offices for physical contact.
And I know the very thought of otp makes some people ill. It reminds one of hack jobs. Yet there it is, as factual, the best encryption, perfectly suited to normal people, and with data capacities at the level where it's beyond practical. What we lack is adequate paranoia and vision in the tech community.
- dmix 5 years ago
- edm0nd 5 years agoI'm pretty sure the US government is why the TrueCrypt devs stopped all work. They got hit with a national security letter (NSL) or heavily leaned on and pressured to stop making their product so awesome and un-breakable.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 5 years agoFrom the TrueCrypt webpage: http://truecrypt.sourceforge.net/
> WARNING: Using TrueCrypt is not secure as it may contain unfixed security issues
The fact that they use awkward wording that contains words whose first letters that start with NSA (not secure as) is pretty suggestive that you are right.
- pstuart 5 years agoWow. In a different timeline I'd dismiss that as tinfoil hat time, but in this one it seems spot on.
- maqp 5 years agoNo the actual message is "Using TrueCrypt" -> UTC -> Coordinated Universal Time. The real culprit are the time thieves as explained in the book "Momo and the Time Thieves".
Your mind will see what it wants.
- paulryanrogers 5 years agoIndeed, a great call out. Props also to the French company sponsoring the Veracrypt fork.
- jfk13 5 years agoDoesn't seem like awkward wording to me (as a native English speaker, fwiw); just a routine disclaimer.
I suppose the fact that it contains words that start with TIN (TrueCrypt is not) provides sufficient justification for your hat, anyhow.
- pstuart 5 years ago
- Someone1234 5 years agoI'm sure they were pressured, but the USG has deep pockets if they wanted someone to stop doing something they just throw a few million at them and call it done, there's far less chance of PR blowback then.
Even just reading this article should show you that they kill you with kindness when they want to keep things hush-hush. If someone is developing a free tool, and are offered a retirement-tier payoff to stop, they're going to stop.
- monocasa 5 years agoThey didn't kill lavabit with kindness.
- jhart99 5 years agoI always assumed that this is exactly what happened to Skype and Whatsapp.
- whatshisface 5 years agoIf an average person got a huge windfall, that would raise a lot of attention, and people would wonder how they got the money. Police use sudden unexplained riches as a way to watch out for criminal activity, and everyone who knew the receiver of the windfall would ask questions. Between $10M and the other option, it may be easier to kill them with killing.
- monocasa 5 years ago
- rebuilder 5 years agoI'm not sure that makes sense. The US could compel the devs to compromise their product but not keep them from issuing a cryptic statement and stopping work on the product?
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5 years agoWell, there is an argument that IC does not have a problem with other interested parties chasing their tail trying to figure out what that really meant similar to the way government occassionally releases few tidbits about Kennedy assasination just to keep the flames flowing and activist distracted from what is going on right now.
There is value in misdirection.
- criddell 5 years agoIt doesn't make sense for two reasons to me. For one, the government can't compel you to do work. That's slavery.
Also, it's open source software. TrueCrypt going down didn't change the security landscape at all.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5 years ago
- vfclists 5 years agoWhy then aren't they able to do the same with LUKS, dm-crypt, cryfs, bitlocker etc?
Does that mean they are only available because the 3 letter agencies can hack them?
- lawnchair_larry 5 years agoYou must have a low threshold for “pretty sure”, because there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest this. Also, it’s open source. Also, the author recommended bitlocker as a replacement. Also, the authors may not even be American (the original author of E4M wasn’t). Doesn’t really add up.
- tptacek 5 years agoOf all the cryptographic tools to mythologize, a crappy last-generation full-disk encryption tool?
- jonathanpierre 5 years agoIs that just a rant or do you have an actual reason to call TrueCrypt crappy? It was at least somewhat solid and it definitely had a great mindshare at the time. It wasn't niche.
Also, describing small-scale intervention in cryptography by services "mythologic" in a thread about news about large-scale intervention in cryptography by those services is a bit odd.
- ameister14 5 years agoI mean, Paul LeRoux is associated with it and he's been mythologized already himself
- tomc1985 5 years agoWhy is it crappy?
- 93po 5 years agoIt was the only non-microsoft option that was accessible and easy to use and free for Windows. And MS's FDE is likely compromised and backdoored.
- jonathanpierre 5 years ago
- jimbob45 5 years agoBut the source-available VeraCrypt still exists and is maintained.
- fredgrott 5 years agono read the damn project notes on the ones that forked Truecrypt its obvious why as it needed fixes and someone clone and forked it to fix it. Not every action is NSA-CIA rigged..they are not hidden bogey men(women) and canni fact be defeated with light, truth, programming, and math
- turk73 5 years agoThat sucks. No fan of the intel agencies in this country, they are the Deep State and will harm us just as readily as they would harm communists or terrorists. They are as much responsible for destroying our freedom as they are protecting it. The world needs strong crypto, even if it enables evildoers because it also protects the little people. Strong crypto makes the playing field level, something that control freaks all despise.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 5 years ago
- nimbius 5 years ago>the current democratisation of encrpytion protocols is a threat to them.
This is absolutely true and nowhere was it more evident than the Speck fiasco. Watching the old guard of the NSA show up and hammer a crypto forum with stonewalling and smug G-Man hand-waving would have been acceptable in 1995, but watching it take place after the snowden revelations was just cringe-worthy. The answer from the community wasnt just no, but hell no.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nsa-speck-removed-linux-4-...
I suspect things like ED25519 and LetsEncrypt were probably a much more damning blow to the day-to-day business of warrantless telecom spying than we're led to believe, and its only going to get closer to that 10% pre-MINERVA figure as time rolls on. the Signal protocol has gained massive traction, and things like Tails are easy enough for a power user. Once someone rolls out a slick CSS frontend for wireguard its back to greasing the palms of guys like RSA in the hopes snooping corporate networks is just as fruitful as snooping the public internet.
CryptoAG tips the governments hand on exactly why it disfavors crypto now. its not terrorists or posthumous parallel construction of $latest_shooter. its about control.
- mirimir 5 years agoYes, and it started with the development of minicomputers and PCs, which facilitated the process, starting in the late 70s.
- mirimir 5 years ago
- brightball 5 years agoThat thought is one reason why I've always questioned this advice:
"Don't roll your own encryption."
I've always understood the arguments for it but that the advice is so widespread seemed a little counter intuitive. It always seemed, to me at least, that having millions of encryption algorithms out there would be inherently more secure than a lot of people standardized on one because the risk to any one would be so compartmentalized by comparison.
- ninly 5 years agoThe "don't roll your own" argument isn't against having lots of encryption algorithms, though. It's because it's nearly impossible for a nonspecialist to implement tools that other specialists can't fairly easily recognize as broken and exploit (whether cryptologically broken or due to side-channel exploits).
- bosswipe 5 years ago> other specialists can't fairly easily recognize as broken and exploit
Is there any supporting evidence for this claim? If I took an AES library and changed the order of some inner loop wouldn't it require extensive statistical analysis to notice the difference? Which means instead of throwing a bunch of compute at decrypting me, along with the masses 10 years from now, you would need to get a specialist to specifically target me and spend considerable time.
- bosswipe 5 years ago
- 5 years ago
- maqp 5 years agohaving millions of encryption algorithms out there would be inherently more secure than a lot of people standardized on one
Enclosing letters in paper the thickness of which has a million variations doesn't mean one of them is magically more secure than one made from two inch thick steel. The point of encryption is it's a standard that needs to be interoperable. Also, NSAs of this world aren't breaking modern ciphers. They're circumventing encryption by going for the keys: There's three choices
1) If communication system uses TLS-encryption (e.g. Telegram cloud messages), there's no need to break encryption, just hack server and read messages from there.
2) If the system uses E2EE where user has no way to verify fingerprints (e.g. iMessage, Confide), compromise the server legally or by hacking it, and perform undetectable MITM attacks.
3) If the system uses E2EE where fingerprints can be verified, hack the user's endpoint to steal their private keys and perform undetectable MITM attack (or just steal their chat logs or take screenshots).
So, to sum it up, the game when modern ciphers are used, is not with cipher security, but everything else around it.
- hadcomplained 5 years agoI agree with the sentiment. The common argument against rolling out your own encryption just baffles me. Because there are plenty of ways to roll out your own encryption safely and in such a way that drastically eliminates the possibility of getting broken. Following is just a few ideas easily implemented even by a mediocre engineer.
For the easiest, you can just apply multiple encryption algorithms in succession (of course with different keys). Although the algorithm of AES is considered safe, it can be broken through a side-channel such as a backdoor, which secretly stores keys used somewhere. But if you apply another algorithm after AES, be it ChaCha20 or Blowfish, it can only gets reinforced.
Another trivial way to safely roll out your own encryption is to increase the number of rounds in ciphers that are considered safe. The increased number of rounds only strengthen the algorithm. And it's just changing a few magic numbers in the source code - you can get extra security for little expense of time.
Both methods provide esay-to-implement ways to safely 'invent' a new encryption algorithm without a proper knowledge of cryptography. If people start doing any of the above regularly, it would be a headache for those enjoying to exploit vulnerabilities in common crypto implementations.
- UncleMeat 5 years agoThis isn't really "roll your own". This is "run with non-standard parameters". This is a much smaller footgun, though you can really screw this up.
World experts in practical crypto regularly ship implementations that have serious errors that remain undetected by other world experts for years. This shit is hard.
- pfundstein 5 years agoTo support both sides on this one, you could roll your own crypto on top of a third party crypto like AES. That way you get the benefits of both: You have the tried and true AES backing you up if your custom crypto is cracked, and you get security and obfuscation benefits from rolling your own crypto.
- hadcomplained 5 years agoFor downvoters - constructive counterarguments are welcome.
- UncleMeat 5 years ago
- ninly 5 years ago
- garbage_88224 5 years agoYour cellular phone modem is both remotely programmable and has full root memory access 24/7.
Let that sink in a bit.
- tptacek 5 years agoYour "cellular phone" does not in fact have "full root memory access 24/7". In modern phone designs, the baseband is a USB peripheral. The notion that the closed, secret baseband is a DMA backdoor into AP memory is a message board meme, not engineering reality.
- hjkgfdfgh 5 years agoThat may be true of Apple, and is true of the PinePhone and Librem, but for the majority of Android devices, that's blatantly false.
On Qualcomm chipsets in particular heavily utilize shared memory for baseband to application processor communication.
- hjkgfdfgh 5 years ago
- tptacek 5 years ago
- _-___________-_ 5 years agoGiven that the US has operations aiming to capture large amounts of Internet traffic, and given that most interesting Internet traffic is encrypted nowadays, doesn't it follow that they probably have a way to decrypt at least some of it? Capturing DNS queries and HTTP requests to aging websites that still haven't enabled TLS seems not worth the trouble.
- glitchdigger 5 years agoIt’s pretty straightforward. They 0day, hardware backdoor and infiltrate the ranks of root CA’s. This is covert information war from blank-check black op military agencies we’re talking about. They will kill people if they have to and sleep at night like babies because it is a utilitarian philosophy these people hold, not some Kantian dream.
- glitchdigger 5 years ago
- chiefalchemist 5 years ago> If there was, then perhaps there wouldn't be such a strong push to rig the deck in the first place. At least that's heartening.
Intelligence isn't about truth and transparency. It's about deception. They're not going to run a Super Bowl advert saying they can crack anything. That's not how it works.
- navidr 5 years agoWhat is MINERVA? Google didn’t give any related results.
- JorgeGT 5 years agoThe codename for Crypto AG.
- reaperducer 5 years agoIt's explained in the article.
- sounds 5 years agoThe paywalled article? I didn't read it.
- sounds 5 years ago
- JorgeGT 5 years ago
- netsec_burn 5 years ago
- blattimwind 5 years agoIt has been known for a pretty long time that the Crypto AG is affiliated with or controlled by intelligence services. It was also always firmly in the "security through obscurity of our own cipher designs" department. Their C-52 (52 as in "1952") cipher machines were designed to enable decryption by Western intelligence.
> Le Temps has argued that Crypto AG had been actively working with the British, US and West German secret services since 1956, going as far as to rig manuals after the wishes of the NSA. These claims were vindicated by US government documents declassified in 2015.
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-9088423.html (1996) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG#Compromised_machines
- Ragnarork 5 years ago> Andreas Linde, the chairman of the company that now holds the rights to Crypto’s international products and business, said he had no knowledge of the company’s relationship to the CIA and BND before being confronted with the facts in this story.
I'm quite curious about this. As you said it's been known for a long time that, without knowing the full extent of the ties, there was ties between Crypto-AG and US agencies (at least). I find hard to believe the candor that this M. Linde displays here...
- fanf2 5 years ago
- jumelles 5 years ago> There were also security breaches that put Crypto under clouds of suspicion. Documents released in the 1970s showed extensive — and incriminating — correspondence between an NSA pioneer and Crypto’s founder. Foreign targets were tipped off by the careless statements of public officials including President Ronald Reagan. And the 1992 arrest of a Crypto salesman in Iran, who did not realize he was selling rigged equipment, triggered a devastating “storm of publicity,” according to the CIA history.
> But the true extent of the company’s relationship with the CIA and its German counterpart was until now never revealed.
- eternalban 5 years agoI saw this article and that is exactly the first thought that popped up. Second thought was why is Washington Post feigning ignorance of this fact.
- rtsil 5 years agoThey didn't, following the arrest in Iran and subsequent release of a Crypto AG salesman in 92, they cite the salesman as talking with news organizations, they also cite a Swiss TV broadcast in 1994 and reports from Baltimore Sun in 1995.
The new fact is that the company was co-owned, then fully owned by the CIA.
- rtsil 5 years ago
- AndyMcConachie 5 years agoThis thread needs to be at the top of the heap. I've read the WaPo article and it would be interesting to know exactly what's newly being revealed in it.
- xhkkffbf 5 years agoThey have a little bit at the top claiming that it's newsworthy because they had access to a complete internal history which is rarely declassified. Okay. I'll buy that. And at the end, they mention a good article from the Baltimore Sun that is MORE THAN 20 YEARS OLD! But that's at the end.
Along the way, I wouldn't blame any reader for assuming that this is entirely new information.
- beerandt 5 years agoThe main (new) thing is that it was 100% CIA and German Intelligence owned, followed by 100% CIA owned. Not sure exactly how big of deal that really is...
(Edit: other than being a longtime profit center for CIA slush money.)
It's all a bit fishy, especially since it's admittedly sourced from within the agency. A lot depends on if it was an approved leak or not. With the divestment in 2018, and no other really new information, I would suspect sanctioned leak, as there was nothing to lose.
The question is what was gained by whom? And why the timing? There's nothing in the story that's pressing topical information.
Between the Amazon government cloud contract lawsuit, and being 1 week post impeachment, there's quite a few opposing angles that would all seem plausible. Wapo reward for some Agency cooperation maybe? Rabbit holes in every direction.
- beerandt 5 years ago
- xhkkffbf 5 years ago
- Ragnarork 5 years ago
- snowwrestler 5 years agoGives you a sense of why the U.S. intelligence community is so nervous about having Huawei at the core of the domestic 5G network. Would not be fun for the U.S. to have done to them what they've done to others.
And as a U.S. resident, even as I acknowledge and deplore what the U.S. intelligence services have done to others, I still don't want China to do that to me. This is not an area where equitable (but bad) treatment makes things right IMO.
- raxxorrax 5 years agoFunny, I don't really care China spying on me as much since they just don't have any handles that would be relevant. Your own government spying on you is much more dangerous. And since I don't have influence on policies of China, I can at least hold domestic politicians that strive for more surveillance accountable. At least theoretically.
History shows that government isn't your friend at all. The US might be a rare exception from time to time. But even that would be very, very limited.
Doesn't mean I wouldn't mind 5G spyware from another country.
- chungus_khan 5 years agoEven saying that the US is your friend isn't really true. The Tuskegee syphilis experiment and MKULTRA were only ended in the 70s, Orlando Letelier happened the same decade, as did the discovery of Operation Mockingbird and other Church Committee findings. Every peek we've had into that world since then continues to come up dirty too. Operation SHAMROCK was considered a big deal at the time, but we've since then allowed American intelligence to vastly eclipse anything even conceivable at the time.
Other countries programs aren't good or anything, but anyone who's deluded themselves into thinking the US is some kind of clean actor, not participating in this sort of stuff, or only using it for good is more optimistic than I could ever manage being.
- dependenttypes 5 years agoRuby Ridge and Waco siege happened only in the 90s as well. Currently we have killer drones assassinating people without trial, CBP ignoring policies (https://vc.gg/blog/so-its-been-a-while.html), sending agents to scare activists (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6946909), and police blowing up houses of innocents and refusing to compensate them (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21399770).
- frandroid 5 years agoFor those, like me, who didn't know about Letelier:
- dependenttypes 5 years ago
- ben_w 5 years agoYou might be a god-fearing clean-shaven American, but I strongly suspect the number of Americans who have secrets they can be blackmailed over is at least one percent. While I’d like to change every society so such secrets are not big issues, I don’t expect that to happen, and 3.5 million Americans being potentially blackmailed by a superpower is something I’d prefer to avoid even though I’m not an American and don’t expect to live in the USA.
- blattimwind 5 years ago> but I strongly suspect the number of Americans who have secrets they can be blackmailed over is at least one percent.
1 %? I assume 80+ %. E v e r y o n e has secrets.
- blattimwind 5 years ago
- SkyMarshal 5 years agoAs a US citizen and resident I would far more prefer to have to contend with the US Govt than the CCP on this matter. At least in the US there is some legal procedure, accountability and civil society culture around limiting govt power. With the CCP there is none of that, neither for Chinese citizens nor foreigners.
It’s clear that the CCP is assembling a database of information on everyone in the developed world, not just in China, and that they intend to use it as part of their soft power arsenal (along everything else from economic incentives to Confucious Institutes).
The CCP is much more frightening and less accountable than the US Govt, especially as they reach parity in soft and hard power.
- pinkfoot 5 years ago> At least in the US there is some legal procedure, accountability and civil society culture around limiting govt power.
No: go read about National Security Letters.
- pinkfoot 5 years ago
- Seenso 5 years ago> Your own government spying on you is much more dangerous.
That really depends on the government, and how heavily they rely on domestic surveillance as an instrument of political control. It also depends on the geopolitical and diplomatic situation, and the risks that stem from that.
In China for instance, domestic surveillance is a clear threat any of its citizens that choose to be dissidents and advocate for change. For instance, I have friends there who are very angry about the coronavirus situation, but have to be careful about what they say and how they say it to avoid risking government attention. Even with an extremely dark and cynical view of the US government, that kind of threat is far less for US citizens.
Foreign spying can be dangerous to you, personally, but usually in a more indirect and collective way [1]. The most obvious example of this is war. If your country loses one to a more brutal and oppressive adversary, you'll likely find yourself is a worse, if not outright bad, position. On a smaller and more mundane scale, foreign industrial espionage could put you out of a job.
[1] You may be a target of foreign direct spying if you're friend of a dissident, a government employee, a government official, or have access to valuable technology or trade secrets, etc.
- dumbfounder 5 years agoYes, you may not care if you are spied on, as I do not. But do you care if our Congresspeople are spied on by China? I sure as heck do.
- pradn 5 years agoYou don't have to live in China for the Chinese government to have power over you. The threat of releasing your secret emails or browsing history is enough to get people to change their behavior. The internet enables such remote threats to your reputation.
- 5 years ago
- drummer 5 years agoYou might not care if China spies on you, but you might put others in danger who you communicate with. They could get to them through you. This goes for all spying agencies.
- microcolonel 5 years ago> Funny, I don't really care China spying on me as much since they just don't have any handles that would be relevant.
This is an incredibly foolish line of reasoning. Compromising the trust and sovereignty of individuals in the U.S. is an extreme risk, and it can come for anyone. The U.S. government at least will tend not to try undermining the U.S. economy except through specific policy initiatives; the Chinese government has a permanent interest in controlling the U.S. economy, and holding the threat of compromise over our heads.
No government is your friend, but there's really no comparing the abusiveness of the CCP, both at home and abroad, to the U.S. equivalent, and I'm honestly shocked that I ever have to remind people in the west of this.
- chungus_khan 5 years ago
- fanatic2pope 5 years agoWhen this stuff is used against you, it is FAR more likely going to be from a domestic group hostile to a political opinion you might have. Imagine if an outfit like Cambridge Analytica had the resources of a nation state helping it collect and process information about who might support any given policy (and be given the carrot) and who might oppose it (and be given the stick). That's the scale of threat we face. While certain governments around the world are asking for mandatory back door access to encryption, rest assured they have a "plan B" for getting access to your information without it, and the 3 letter departments are front and center in those plans.
- shostack 5 years agoI'm not clear if your post was implying this was the case or not, but this is an interesting, well-sourced article on the links between Cambridge Analytica and Russia [1].
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/17/us/politics/cambridge-ana...
- Forgivenessizer 5 years agoIt's not very important if it's paywalled. ie you wouldn't paywall what is necessary to bring about the savlation of humanity.
- Forgivenessizer 5 years ago
- shostack 5 years ago
- Seenso 5 years ago> Gives you a sense of why the U.S. intelligence community is so nervous about having Huawei at the core of the domestic 5G network. Would not be fun for the U.S. to have done to them what they've done to others.
Exactly. Huawei even kinda smells the same. From the OP:
> As Widman settled in, the secret partners adopted a set of principles for rigged algorithms, according to the BND history. They had to be “undetectable by usual statistical tests” and, if discovered, be “easily masked as implementation or human errors.”
> In other words, when cornered, Crypto executives would blame sloppy employees or clueless users.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/03/28/hcsec_huawei_oversi...:
> Huawei savaged by Brit code review board over pisspoor dev practices
> "The work of HCSEC [Huawei Cyber Security Evaluation Centre]… reveals serious and systematic defects in Huawei's software engineering and cyber security competence," said the HCSEC oversight board in its annual report, published this morning.
- dontbenebby 5 years ago>Gives you a sense of why the U.S. intelligence community is so nervous about having Huawei at the core of the domestic 5G network
Makes me wonder what we've done using the fact US companies (ex: Cisco) control large swathes of the internet's infrastructure.
- sumedh 5 years ago> US companies (ex: Cisco) control large swathes of the internet's infrastructure.
Wouldn't China/Russia make some noise if they had proof the Cisco was hiding something in their infra?
- dontbenebby 5 years agoI thought the whole point of such things is it's near impossible to prove?
Also complaining means you reveal what you know, which helps narrow what you don't know.
- modo_mario 5 years agoI think they're pretty good at keeping it hidden and remote. It was proven the US did economic espionage on a German firm but the snowden files showed a range of other European companies also targeted. No doubt they also focus on "less friendly" targets industry, infrastructure and politics.
- dontbenebby 5 years ago
- sumedh 5 years ago
- AndyMcConachie 5 years agoThe political squabble over 5G/Huawei is as much about western vendors using fear of China to prevent competition.
Why should Cisco/Juniper/Ericsson/etc compete with Huawei when they can more easily use political pressure to exclude them from the market?
- rtkwe 5 years agoIt wouldn't be so bad with ubiquitous end to end encryption though right? If everything was encrypted in transit it wouldn't really matter if Huawei (and by extension the supposition goes the Chinese government) because they'd just see noise.
Guess they would also be able to do location tracking though and that's not so easily solved.
- freeflight 5 years agoEven end to end encryption often leaves them with metadata [0]
[0] https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2014/05/10/we-kill-people-base...
- maqp 5 years agoWhich is why you'll want to use some open source onion-routed app like Briar, Ricochet, Cwtch, TFC, or Session.
- maqp 5 years ago
- ckocagil 5 years agoGovernments are focusing more and more on end-to-end encryption. It can be banned within the next 5 years. They could need to manufacture some consent before that (e.g. mention e2e in the news every time a major crime is committed).
- 5 years ago
- maqp 5 years agoNot going to happen, considering djb vs US declared code free-speech; E2EE is implemented in code so you can't ban it without violating the constitution.
- 5 years ago
- snowwrestler 5 years agoI mean, you can do a lot with metadata.
Also, I think quite a bit of telecomm traffic is encrypted by the telecomm carrier itself. For example I don't think my iPhone, by default, encrypts/decrypts SMS or voice calls on the device. To the extent text messages and mobile phone calls are resistant to dumb eavesdropping, that's provided by the mobile carrier. So having access into all the equipment at the carrier would be a nice centralized place to sit and observe/record.
- tinus_hn 5 years agoThe US government does not get to dictate mobile phone standards so that is irrelevant. Besides, it’s not like the US government doesn’t have its hand in the sniffing cookie jar, they don’t really want the traffic to be indecipherable.
- pbhjpbhj 5 years agoYes, this is my understanding. But, haven't USA for Adobe history wrt "backdooring" the encryption algorithms themselves (ie private knowledge allows decryption to be made plausible [but still costly]).
- xorcist 5 years agoThere is also the risk of disrupting network operations at some unfortunate time, especially since these new networks are thought to be dominated by machine-to-machine communications.
- Spooky23 5 years agoThere is metadata, but you also have frequent bugs or other errata that render encryption vulnerable.
A nation-state type actor can hoover up everything and retroactively decrypt.
- freeflight 5 years ago
- thrwowman1 5 years agoOr maybe simply because the US intelligence not having a backdoor is why the're demonizing Huawei in Europe for example. That doesn't imply that Huawei does have a backdoor, simply that they'd not be able to spy anymore...
- vinay427 5 years agoNot sure how that makes sense when the alternatives to Huawei proposed and supported by the US are European, primarily Ericsson and Nokia.
Where is the self-interest in the US pressuring European (mostly EU) countries to use EU competitors?
- vinay427 5 years ago
- huaweiward 5 years agoNot because they uniquely enable the user to switch off their 2G radios and thereby defeat now trivial MITM?
- yumcimil 5 years agoit could be as simple as Huawei refusing to install a backdoor for them.
- raxxorrax 5 years ago
- apexalpha 5 years agoWhat a treat to read a well written piece based on decent research. It's a long read but well worth your time. Kudo's to the journalists who helped uncover it.
And the 'coup of the century' is far from clickbait, it's definitionally warranted for what the CIA and BND did here.
It's a little ironic as well, especially since the US is so keen on blocking Huawei over espionage concerns.
- noelsusman 5 years agoThere's nothing ironic, weird, or surprising about the US wanting to stop other countries from doing to them what they do to other countries. It's hypocritical in some sense, mostly because the US tries to project itself as the good guys, but it's just basic international relations. That's how every country has always operated and will always operate.
- einpoklum 5 years agoThe US mostly tries to project itself as "the good guys" to its own inhabitants, and secondly to the local and international media. But in most of the world you are often faced with the business end of a US-operated or US-financed weapon.
- jorblumesea 5 years agoTo be fair, it's a spectrum. The US has its share of bodies, but it also doesn't grind its citizens into a pulp with tanks when they protest.
- jorblumesea 5 years ago
- smolder 5 years agoPeople seem to take for granted that things like that will never change, but always is a very long time --much longer than modern history. I hope you don't just expect/accept that we should kill ourselves off as opposed to reaching some kind of sustainability.
- dunkelheit 5 years agoRight, the decision to avoid huawei is totally justified, but the hypocrisy is something to behold. Even here on HN, where people supposedly shouldn't be falling for propaganda so easily, there is a lot of indignation when e.g. the Chinese are caught doing something shady. If someone then points out that this is in some sense normal and US agencies are doing the same or worse stuff it is instantly dismissed as whataboutism.
- eeZah7Ux 5 years agoEven if something is "in some sense normal" it is still completely unacceptable.
- eeZah7Ux 5 years ago
- einpoklum 5 years ago
- tptacek 5 years agoThe fact that the US has repeatedly succeeded in SIGINT capers like this makes their concern about Huawei kind of un-ironic, right?
- pjc50 5 years agoWell, yes, but for third parties like the UK it makes it much more explicit that the choice is between the system that might be compromised by Huawei and the system that might be compromised by the US. Except the UK has its own little joint venture of security inspection of Huawei systems ...
- tsimionescu 5 years agoAlso, the UK is one of the Five Eyes nations, explicitly sharing intelligence data with the US and vice-versa. I'm sure they're not 100%open, but if there is any nation on Earth that would not overly fear US spying and prefer it to Chinese spying, it would be the UK.
- vinay427 5 years agoThe alternatives that the US supports are European (Ericsson and Nokia, IIRC) so I see little benefit for at least EU countries regardless of their ties to the US to choose Huawei in this case.
- OBFUSCATED 5 years agoplease expand..
- tsimionescu 5 years ago
- turk73 5 years agoMy take is that Huawei was bugging their hardware the same way the NSA does it and there can be only one. Plus, the US doesn't want Chinese bugged hardware.
- saber6 5 years agoOn the contrary. When you are a master of the dark arts, you can't help but see other practitioners around every corner.
- pjc50 5 years ago
- navadr 5 years agoNo, this is not original research, this isn't being uncovered now, and I'm not sure why this is being republished now in 2020.
There have been detailed leaks since 1995 on cryptome.org and crypto mailing lists about CryptoAG, including details about the message format and the bits used to leak parts of the key (16 bit leak, IIRC).
The CryptoAG story has tainted all Swiss-based crypto/security firms since 1994.
[1] https://www.cryptomuseum.com/people/hans_buehler.htm
[2] Verschlüsselt, Der Fall Hans Bühler, ISBN 3-85932-141-2. 1994 - Book written by former CryptoAG employee Hans Buehler (1994).
- xhkkffbf 5 years agoExactly. The piece does give a hat tip to the good article written by their rival, the Baltimore SUN, more than 20 years ago. But that's buried near the bottom.
- maqp 5 years agoThe news is this:
"CIA owned CryptoAG in collaboration with the intelligence establishment of West-Germany"
- xhkkffbf 5 years ago
- jvanderbot 5 years agoI take this plainly without irony as evidence for the restriction of foreign government-controlled infastructure in series with trusted communication.
- FisDugthop 5 years agoHypocritical, not ironic. You mean to highlight that the USA does not treat other sovereign states like the USA expects to be treated. There is no ironic contrast between the USA funding Crypto AG and China funding Huawei.
- tynpeddler 5 years agoI think it's pretty clear that the US expects to be treated exactly like they've treated other nations.
- tynpeddler 5 years ago
- beerandt 5 years ago>based on decent research
The story was handed to him by the Agency, or agents of. The only "research" seems to be calling the names in the story for fact checking, and wapo couldn't even determine if some of them were alive or dead.
This story is dangerously close to being nothing but a CIA press release.
- ChrisCinelli 5 years agoOk, what so you think the purpose is?
- beerandt 5 years agoSpecifics? No telling...
But it is the CIA, so I'm assuming information was used as currency in paying off a favor to wapo.
Plus they get to brag about a huge success story in times where the public has... doubts ... About the competency and value of the intelligence community in general. Without revealing much that want already public knowledge.
Factor in the timing of FASA court investigations, the impeachment, and the AWS government cloud suit, and there are thousands of directions it could take.
- beerandt 5 years ago
- ChrisCinelli 5 years ago
- Seenso 5 years ago> It's a little ironic as well, especially since the US is so keen on blocking Huawei over espionage concerns.
It's not ironic to play a game to win. Saying this is ironic is like saying it was ironic for the US to try to keep the North Koreans/Chinese from winning the Korean War because the US had just won WWII.
- noelsusman 5 years ago
- danso 5 years agoThe popular belief is that the CIA and its intelligence colleagues will go to any lengths to protect its power and secrecy. But apparently a Crypto engineer discovered the secret conspiracy in 1977, and even fixed vulnerabilities on behalf of the Syrian state – and the CIA was content to leave him alone for the next 40 years?
> In 1977, Heinz Wagner, the chief executive at Crypto who knew the true role of the CIA and BND, abruptly fired a wayward engineer after the NSA complained that diplomatic traffic coming out of Syria had suddenly became unreadable. The engineer, Peter Frutiger, had long suspected Crypto was collaborating with German intelligence. He had made multiple trips to Damascus to address complaints about their Crypto products and apparently, without authority from headquarters, had fixed their vulnerabilities.
> Frutiger “had figured out the Minerva secret and it was not safe with him,” according to the CIA history. Even so, the agency was livid with Wagner for firing Frutiger rather than finding a way to keep him quiet on the company payroll. Frutiger declined to comment for this story.
- wycy 5 years agoTwo parts of interest that jumped out to me:
> The overlapping accounts expose frictions between the two partners over money, control and ethical limits, with the West Germans frequently aghast at the enthusiasm with which U.S. spies often targeted allies.
> Hagelin had once hoped to turn control over to his son, Bo. But U.S. intelligence officials regarded him as a “wild card” and worked to conceal the partnership from him. Bo Hagelin was killed in a car crash on Washington’s Beltway in 1970. There were no indications of foul play.
- johnflan 5 years ago> There were no indications of foul play. Yup
- sailfast 5 years agoHave you ever driven on the beltway?
- wycy 5 years agoI have. Nowadays it's generally slow enough that it's hard to imagine dying in an accident there. But this was so long ago that I imagine things were different with the Beltway back then, and of course cars were much more deadly at the time too.
- wycy 5 years ago
- sailfast 5 years ago
- johnflan 5 years ago
- mxcrossb 5 years ago> U.S. officials were even more alarmed when Wagner hired a gifted electrical engineer in 1978 named Mengia Caflisch. ... But NSA officials immediately raised concerns that she was “too bright to remain unwitting.”
Wow, those are words to aspire to
- drummer 5 years agoYou cannot get a better compliment than this.
- drummer 5 years ago
- cameldrv 5 years agoThis story was originally reported in CovertAction Quarterly 22 years ago: https://covertactionmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/... (Page 36)
- istinetz 5 years ago... What? This is a well written article covering essentially the same information. This is so confusing, why did nobody react back then? Why did governments continue to buy equipment from Crypto AG?
Amazing. The only explanation I can think of is that CovertAction had much worse reputation and could be easily dismissed as conspiracy theory.
- istinetz 5 years ago
- reddog 5 years agoIt follows that private VPN firms would be a similar target for deep pocketed state intelligence agencies. What do you think the chances are that the VPN service or software you use hasn't been co-opted, compromised or is outright owned by state actors in China, Europe or the US?
- e12e 5 years agoIt would be hopelessly naive to assume that intelligence services don't run a large number of VPN providers an tor relays, just as the used to run mix master smtp (email) relays.
- freeflight 5 years agoWhile at the same time taking out the competition they can't get to comply [0]
[0] https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/30/cyberbunker_cb3rob_...
- freeflight 5 years ago
- DethNinja 5 years agoYou can never trust VPN but it is important to have a legal case. Let’s say VPN is in a country where mass surveillance is illegal, then at least in future you can sue the VPN company if they are found out to be breaking their contract.
- mratsim 5 years agoA country like Switzerland or Liechtenstein?
- mratsim 5 years ago
- e12e 5 years ago
- just_steve_h 5 years agoIt certainly does make one wonder who else in the worlds of high technology (and journalism!) May be – wittingly or unwittingly – working for Uncle Sam.
I've seen some deep integrations that have made me despair of any organization being free from the overweening influence of the "security services." I'm talking about groups as large as multi-billion dollar public US technology infrastructure companies and as small as anarchist cells planning to attend a political convention.
Sometimes it seems that internal turf battles, budget disputes, careerism, and rank incompetence are our only protections against the machinations of the National Security State.
- paganel 5 years ago> as small as anarchist cells planning to attend a political convention
For what it's worth I fully expect a great percentage of any anarchist cell to actually be double agents/"agents provocateurs", in the end I think that's why the Okhrana [1] was so good at its job (relatively speaking, of course).
As a matter of fact I think that the "Western" three-letter agencies are at a disadvantage because they're focusing too much on data collection and interception, they're too technical, so to speak, this is still a "humans-heavy industry" (for lack of a better phrase) and without controlling and understanding said humans all the information in the world will do almost nothing to further said secret agencies' goals.
- WarOnPrivacy 5 years agoUS Telcos have been jointed at the hip w/ the USIC for generations. AT&T's history of proactively helping the US spy on US Citizens+Everyone hints at the company's deep desire to be a spy entity in it's own right.
Even though the knowledge of that is/was public, it wasn't widely know until the Edward Snowden revelations - largely due to the relative disinterest of US news orgs (even when faced with clear evidence of US's ethical lapses -- eg: Mark Klein whistleblows AT&T's NSA taps on the internet backbone).
Most of the US Press still behaves as if USIC's primary goal was safeguarding the public instead of furthering the interests of US Gov & political financiers.
- blattimwind 5 years agoWorth pointing out that the rules around telco accounting are pretty much designed to give Interested Parties a single point to siphon off call metadata.
- blattimwind 5 years ago
- cpr 5 years agoLook up Operation Mockingbird on wikipedia.
The same is still going on in spades.
- WarOnPrivacy 5 years agoI don't think an operation like that is necessary. Most journalists seem to be eager to prove themselves as patriots by under-reporting Gov malfeasance, especially in IC matters where understanding a complex issue gets trumped by deadlines.
Thank-you editors for our chronically uninformed electorate.
- WarOnPrivacy 5 years ago
- paganel 5 years ago
- leowinterde 5 years agoThe same report by the ZDF (second german television): https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/cryptoleaks-bnd-cia-o...
- drummer 5 years agoThe CIA's current strategy is placing spies in all major tech companies: https://news.yahoo.com/shattered-inside-the-secret-battle-to...
- willvarfar 5 years agoBeing able to read diplomatic messages is a definite gold-mine.
Of course, knowing the contents of diplomatic messages isn't always enough. A good example is described in Peter Wright's Spycatcher: the Brits were breaking the French diplomatic cipher, using an ingenuous attack on the electromagnetic noise of the cipher machine in the embassy. But all this intelligence was unable to stop De Gaulle thwarting their entering the European Common Market.
- C1sc0cat 5 years agoAssuming they aren't coded as well or double enciphered
eg XXX in 21Land is a WW
- C1sc0cat 5 years ago
- mindfulhack 5 years agoThis article has made me decide to never mistake Huawei's ties to Chinese government surveillance for US political nonsense ever again.
I may not like our current US president, but it doesn't mean he can't use truths as political instruments.
Due to China's and Russia's human rights abuses, they are who I dislike the most. It might be by a small margin, but I would feel more comfortable having the CIA and NSA spy on me any day, than China or Russia.
What's wild is that I know many in China would feel the same way - but in the reverse.
- Psyladine 5 years ago>Their [Soviet Union & China] well-founded suspicions of the company’s ties to the West shielded them from exposure, although the CIA history suggests that U.S. spies learned a great deal by monitoring other countries’ interactions with Moscow and Beijing.
Fascinating use of 'negative space' in intelligence. Also appreciated the dig at Reagan, apparently gross intelligence breaches at the highest levels aren't anything novel.
- WarOnPrivacy 5 years ago> gross intelligence breaches at the highest levels aren't anything novel
True. Same portrayals too. If breacher is an R they're incompetent, it's a D they're a traitor.
- WarOnPrivacy 5 years ago
- bobosha 5 years agoRelated question: do modern diplomats/negotiators automatically assume their comms are compromised? Are their "secure" lines ever truly secure? Surely they know the NSA/CIA would be listening.
- tinus_hn 5 years agoNot all communication is compromised; for example for an embassy it could be practical to use a true one time pad which is uncrackable and attempts to intercept the key would lead to a diplomatic incident.
Much of their communication probably isn’t that sensitive though.
- nroets 5 years agoUntil the people slip up and use the same pad twice https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/19/russia_one_time_pad...
- nroets 5 years ago
- WarOnPrivacy 5 years agoThey've all got massive bureaucracies above them that tightly control what they can do.
Also, everyone wants to eventually end their shift and go home. That means just doing what you're told & screw the damage done.
- einpoklum 5 years agoSomewhat surprisingly, it seems they don't. Just look at the diplomatic cables Wikileaks obtained. I mean, ok, they were leaked and not decrypted, but people were assuming that texts which can be accessed by tens of thousands of people would not leak.
- sangnoir 5 years ago> do modern diplomats/negotiators automatically assume their comms are compromised?
Post wikileaks Diplomatic cable leaks - I think they assume their comms may eventually be compromised, but I don't think they assume their comms can decrypted in a matter of seconds.
- tinus_hn 5 years ago
- adventured 5 years ago
- Apofis 5 years agoThanks, it gets irksome at some points that a large number of submitted content on HN is paywalled. I can't subscribe to all of these, just to read a couple of articles a month per publication.
- mellosouls 5 years agoYes. It would be useful to have an accessible version posted with the original each time, and for it to be a preferred guideline for submitters.
Though to be fair, I'm not sure if there are copyright issues involved, which might make such a guideline difficult.
- AnimalMuppet 5 years agoIt is posted each time. Under the article, there are a number of little links ("flag", "hide", "past", and so on). You want the one that says "web".
- AnimalMuppet 5 years ago
- tinus_hn 5 years agoIf only the newspapers would just provide all their content for free, but without ads and tracking!
- Apofis 5 years agoI wonder if there's a Wikipedia style news site?
- Apofis 5 years ago
- mellosouls 5 years ago
- Apofis 5 years ago
- rjsw 5 years agoA slightly related article is this [1].
- burakemir 5 years agoTL;DR Swiss firm Crypto AG sold tech to governments for decades, but turns out to be owned and operated by CIA and BND who benefited from backdoors. From their POV, a wildly successful operation, beyond imagination.
> At times, including in the 1980s, Crypto accounted for roughly 40 percent of the diplomatic cables and other transmissions by foreign governments that cryptanalysts at the NSA decoded and mined for intelligence, according to the documents.
- RachelF 5 years agoMakes you wonder about other Swiss based encryption providers like Proton Mail?
Proton Mail would be a great honey pot for the CIA.
- tareqak 5 years agoSame story from the Associated Press: Switzerland investigating alleged CIA, German front company - https://apnews.com/fbd5fe4261c8b326f860936de7c32a87
- leroy_masochist 5 years agoWould be cool if the Agency did relatively more of this kind of thing and relatively less of, for example, paying psychotic Afghan pedophile warlords hundreds of millions of dollars for reneged-upon power sharing agreements and HUMINT of dubious value.
- not2b 5 years agoIt has long been known that the NSA had their hooks into Crypto AG; for example, that's how they managed to intercept Libyan communications. What's new is the report that the CIA actually partly owned the company.
- dropoutcoder 5 years agoMy new startup focuses on human nervous system faraday cages embedded into next generation fashion technology. This tech covers your entire body, keeping you safe from remote scans, and includes realistic facial and body disguises. For your safety, our tech constantly scans your thought patterns and memories and keeps them safe with a static filled triple scrambled encryption method, and encodes them into specially placed augmented cellular technology at undisclosed locations in the body.
For funding, please visit https://CE.YA/
- AndyMcConachie 5 years agoI love it!
- AndyMcConachie 5 years ago
- not_buying_it 5 years agoCan anyone here point out an actual case where the NSA was able to break or legitimately hack someone's crypto? I was under the impression that their track record was basically nil on this, and that virtually every instance of them spying on encrypted info boiled down to some sort of inside job that actually resulted in the encryption being weakened or thwarted. People speak about these guys like they have off the charts abilities, yet the available evidence is not so indicative of that. Just looks like a big government operation kinda bumbling along to me.
- glitchdigger 5 years agoIf they had that ability they certainly wouldn’t broadcast that capability, but I’ve seen enough crazy shit in the legal 0day market alone to think they have some insane capabilities. However, you’d never know If they could crack RSA/AES, but assuming quantum computing is on its way I’m sure it won’t be long or happened 8 years ago.
- glitchdigger 5 years ago
- etiam 5 years agoThere may be some new documents available now, but the story as such seems to have been known for a while. I first learned of it last summer while reading some of the drafts for Ross Anderson's update of his excellent Security Engineering.
See chapter 26, https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/book.html
- mpoloton 5 years agoThere was a documentary about this company and other surveillance topics aired on Swiss TV in last November.
https://www.rts.ch/dossiers/la-suisse-sous-couverture/
It's in French and may not be accessible outside Switzerland but I highly recommend it.
- 5 years ago
- edge17 5 years agoIt's weird this article talks like this is new information. I guess it's not probably not widely known, but this stuff was discussed in James Bamford's Puzzle Palace, published in the early 1980's (nearly 35 years ago).
- NN88 5 years agoJohn Schindler (Former NSA) has hinted Signal isn't secure either...
- rafaelvasco 5 years agoThis is one of the reasons why my tinfoil hat has been shinier than ever;
- hownottowrite 5 years agoI’m surprised no one is talking about all the companies that have In-Q-Tel as an investor.
- anonu 5 years agoAnyone have a link to the leaked doc referenced in the article?
- allovernow 5 years agoAnd that's why we can't trust Uncle Sam with backdoors. You bet your ass they'll be reading everything and we won't find out for decades, if ever.
- yspeak 5 years agoI'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
There's no scandal here. Asking the US to disband spying is like asking the US to disarm.
This certainly does give credibility to suspicions regarding Chinese manufactured hardware.
- microcolonel 5 years agoIs there a list somewhere of companies who are known to have bought and installed Crypto AG devices?
- Allower 5 years agoWar crimes, hang em
- PhantomGremlin 5 years agoI have to disagree with the headline. The "intelligence coup of the century" came much earlier, during WWII.
The Allies were reading a good deal of both Japanese and German encrypted communications. This saved the lives of many Allied solders and, perhaps, tipped the balance of the war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(cryptography)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra
David Kahn's book, the Codebreakers, is a good introduction to cryptography and has a lot of this history in it.
- mzs 5 years agoalso how Poland kept the Bolsheviks from sweeping across Europe
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/2016/10/05/polish-ciphers/
- Psyladine 5 years agoIn terms of scope & scale you may be underselling the title. Enigma, while perhaps more far-reaching in its consequences for computerization, did not have consistent application its breaking would suggest. American code-breakers had more success against the Japanese in practical terms, Midway most especially, but the imperials were a doomed effort[0]. As the cliche goes, British intelligence, American steel, and Russian blood, all of which overshadowed by the Bomb.
To put it bluntly, the equivalent would have to be, say, informing Stalin about Barbarossa, or cracking Purple before Pearl Harbor.
What the article describes, is the most thorough and long-running (known) intelligence operation in modern history. It is simply unparalleled in strategic depth and tactical implications, not to mention how it must have shaped global politics, economics & social development.
- mzs 5 years ago