Only Windows 11 Pro will let you install Windows 11 with a local account
158 points by boba7 4 years ago | 167 comments- olivierestsage 4 years agoEvery day I feel like a passive spectator watching the industry move in a direction that is worrying: more telemetry, harsh rules about binary signing that hurt small developers, difficulty of accessing one's own system with full privileges, online accounts required everywhere, pushes to do away with traditional "general-purpose computers" in favor of restricted devices oriented around consumption.
I know that this post is peak HackerNews hipsterism/"old man yells at cloud," so I want to try to make it constructive: what can be done, at this point? What is the strategic move, beyond something like going with Linux or BSD for personal use? Is it too late and we've entered "hope for the best" territory?
Edit: To clarify, I do already use Linux, which wasn't clear from my initial wording. It's just that I worry it isn't "enough."
- flohofwoe 4 years agoBeing a Windows or macOS user starts to feel a bit like living in a Cold War Eastern Bloc country, doesn't it? The government knows what's best for you, now be a good citizen and don't make such a fuzz about it, if we all follow the great vision of the Party the future will be glorious, promised!
The big difference is, if you make a fuzz, Apple or Microsoft won't send the secret police after you (not yet anyway), so I guess the only option left is organized outrage on social media (or flee the country to an uncertain future in the "Free West").
- jiggawatts 4 years agoHave you noticed the curious absence of independent commercial database or cloud platform benchmarks? If you publicly post benchmarks of most commercial database products or public cloud services, you'll get a scary letter from some expensive lawyers threatening to end your career, bankrupt you, and ruin your life.
They're not secret police because they're not secret, and they're not police. But in the same way, even if you broke no laws, they will punish you all the same. Small people punishing other small people for angering their "betters".
Explain to me how this is better.
- conradfr 4 years agoIn the audio world people release plugins named "American Amp" or "Famous British Console".
I wonder if you could post benchmarks of a "Big American Database" and get away with it.
- 4 years ago
- rank0 4 years agoThis can’t be true. Where are you getting this info?
- schmorptron 4 years agoI've also heard this exact same thing from my Databases professor about Oracle and their products.
- redis_mlc 4 years agoThe original reason for the ban on benchmarks is that it's difficult to do a rigorous and fair comparison between two databases. Even if you're an expert on one, it's unlikely you're an expert on two.
However, everybody publishes TPCC results.
The results of a stress test utility by MySQL AB were published, which encouraged various vendors to fix crash problems, thus preparing them for Internet-scale loads.
Source: DBA.
- t8sr 4 years agoAre you suggesting that if you post a performance benchmark about a commercial database that you’ll get threatened with legal action? Do you have anything to back that up? It sounds far fetched, and a cursory search finds many such benchmarks on random people’s blogs.
- conradfr 4 years ago
- pjmlp 4 years agoYou forgot the part that owning a system running anything else makes you dissident, worthy to be invited to a private "talk" with the security state police.
- Razengan 4 years ago> Being a Windows or macOS user
macOS is nowhere near as bad as Windows. You can still use it without an Apple account, and there are no ads/spyware (unless you really want to pick straws) even if you do use an Apple account.
- sneak 4 years agoThat's not true. Apple devices maintain 24/7 persistent connections back to Apple with client certificates based on the unchangeable hardware serial number. Apple knows (or can know) the approximate location of every modern Apple device.
It's better than Windows, but it's still spyware.
- sneak 4 years ago
- jiggawatts 4 years ago
- fouronnes3 4 years agoIt might be time to accept that the general public does not need "general-purpose computers". We're at a fork in the road, and both paradigms of computing are here to stay. It's up to us to make sure our branch of the fork is great at what it does, not fight the one that's backed by the giants. It's not all grim, there are some wins for consumers, not the least of which is security and user friendlyness.
- thomasahle 4 years agoThere is strength in numbers. If most people stop using general purpose computers, those will stop being available except for people with special licenses. When arguments are made about general purpose computing being dangerous, the argument that a tiny minority of nerds like them won't win much support.
- cft 4 years agoThey will be available from China. China is less monopolized economically than the West, especially in hardware manufacturing.
- cft 4 years ago
- api 4 years agoThe general public doesn't understand the difference, but what they do understand is that an unmanaged open computer gets malware while a locked-down machine is much less likely to. This translates to: locked-down machines are more reliable and thus better.
We have to make general purpose computers secure or they die out except for servers and hobbyists.
- floatingatoll 4 years agoEvery time we try, communities such as HN share around ways to disable the security features for their own simple convenience or preference. Thus, a correction:
We have to make GP computer users accept the inconvenience of security, or GP computers will die out.
I don’t think that’s a viable plan.
I’ve seen countless HN and HN-alike folks talk about how they hold the root ssh keys to their kingdoms on a Mac that they’ve disabled SIP on, simply because it inconvenienced them one time (and not for genuine technological necessity).
If you can think of a way to change our collective minds, you have my support, but I’ve tried everything I know and essentially given up talking about such things on HN anymore. Everyone who understands is already doing the right things; everyone that isn’t talks as loudly as possible about their way of doing it, and swarm to shut down any suggestion that they should burden themselves with security.
Good luck.
- floatingatoll 4 years ago
- isodev 4 years agoIndeed, it is not all bad at all. Ecosystems are so well integrated that as a consumer it really makes sense to just pick one and try to stay within the realm of what works out of the box. While advanced users are able to "mix and match" and get deeper into how certain tools work or how to replace them, that's not a task for the usual consumer.
- BiteCode_dev 4 years agoNo but society does.
- ASalazarMX 4 years agoThe future might be going towards affordable jailed devices to the general public, and expensive general-purpose devices for specialists. Definitely most people just want consumption devices.
- ASalazarMX 4 years ago
- hulitu 4 years agoWhatever your smoking... There is no security where all your data goes to google or microsoft.
- thomasahle 4 years ago
- flyinghamster 4 years agoYou're not alone. My disillusionment with what computing has become is reaching the point of me considering a career change, preferably one with as little computer interaction as possible. But that means going back to school.
When even Ubuntu and Raspberry Pi jump on the bandwagon of "oh, we changed your configuration behind your back whether you like it or not," it's hard for me to have hope for the future. But Windows 11 is beyond the pale. As it is, I've already skipped Windows 8 and 10, and 11 is an even harder pass.
- ghthor 4 years agoIt probably is time. This civilization is on the verge of being the next Atlantis. Materialism is thoroughly penetrated all aspects of our lives and we've become wholly dependent on electrification which can be completed knocked out with a kerrington event at any time and it will be all gone, no quick recovery possible.
- olivierestsage 4 years agoI'm on Ubuntu and feeling similarly. OpenBSD is looking more and more intriguing, but the further one pushes off in that direction, the more challenging hardware compatibility and access to important applications become -- or at least, that's my perception so far from the outside.
- fredthomsen 4 years agoCan you provide some more info about the raspberry pi and Ubuntu config changes done without user consent?
- flyinghamster 4 years agoUbuntu: the appearance of ubuntu-advantage-tools, or moving Chromium to a snap. Raspberry Pi: the addition of a Microsoft apt repository without so much as asking.
- flyinghamster 4 years ago
- ghthor 4 years ago
- davidhyde 4 years agoTo me this is a problem of user effort. Free open source software is not advertised as aggressively as paid versions so you have to go out and find it rather than it coming to you. There is still a preconception that paid software is somehow better than free open source software despite the abundant evidence to counter it. If you are scared of Linux then don't be. Something like Linux Mint is closer to Windows 7 (the last UI friendly version of Windows IMO) than Windows 10 and 11. Wine (for running Windows programs on Linux) is so good these days you can sometimes even play graphics intensive games using it.
There are more options than ever before to avoid corporate lock-in nowadays. It just doesn't come to you - you have to go to it.
- api 4 years agoWhat's the best Linux laptop option these days? Are there any with decent build quality, solidness, aesthetics, and reliability compared to recent Macs?
Also how's hardware support? Last time I used Linux on a desktop, admittedly a few years ago, I still had to futz around with wireless and video drivers routinely.
- davidhyde 4 years agoI use a little Intel Nuc which fits in my pocket and set up screens at home and at work and just plug it into a cheap hub on either end. That way I get the equivalent power of a $2k laptop without the noise, upgrade restrictions and sore neck peering down at a small laptop screen.
BUT, if you want to use a laptop then I believe the System76 or Dell XPS line of laptops (just be careful about the nostril camera models) are quite Linux friendly.
Edit: My main PC has an nvidia graphics card (GeForce GTX 1070) and I admittedly had to use the proprietary Nvidia drivers instead of the FOSS equivalent for better performance. Like you I had to fuss around a little to find a version that did not crash my system (I settled on nvidia-driver-460 for Linux Mint 20.1 Cinnamon kernel 5.4). I probably wouldn't go for Nvidia next time and do my homework before buying graphics hardware. But I can play Windows games using Wine and it uses the graphics card which was surprising for me! For anything else like wireless stuff I find that most hardware just works out of the box. I usually just look for the word "linux" somewhere in the description and then I know that it will work. And you usually don't have to install drivers for stuff like wireless cards / dongles, bluetooth, keyboards, and mice. It just works in my recent experience.
- lbayes 4 years agoSince 2016-ish, I've been using the Dell XPS 13 "Developer Edition" (3 models so far), and they're consistently decent machines.
I still have a Linux workstation for big tasks, but XPS has been good enough to wean me off Macs ever since they introduced the touch bar, which was a hard pass for me.
Caveat:
I had to swap the radio in the first one due to driver issues, and I continue to experience occasional issues with Bluetooth, suspend and graphics rendering.
It's not all roses, but the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages (for me at least).
- JCWasmx86 4 years agoI don't know some laptops by name, but look for:
-Intel GPU in CPU (No firmware required/works even without)
-Or AMD GPU, Nvidia is not that linux-friendly. AMD GPU requires firmware-amd-graphics on debian
-Realtek wifi (I heard a lot of bad things about Broadcom). Requires firmware-realtek on debian
- fsflover 4 years ago
- davidhyde 4 years ago
- api 4 years ago
- mysterydip 4 years agoI've changed my personal laptop to Linux, and my development platform from desktop/PC to html5/web. I think (hope?) there's too much momentum with the free web for the same tricks to happen there.
- everyone 4 years agoThe problem is most people are on mobile now. And Apple have crippled the web on iOS cus they want everyone going through the app store. So web stuff will be janky / broken on a decent sized cohort of the populations devices.
ps. Also, forget about iOS. Half the websites I try to use nowadays dont even work on Firefox on desktop and I need to use a chromium browser to get them to work.
- Semaphor 4 years ago> Half the websites I try to use nowadays dont even work on Firefox on desktop
I assume half is hyperbole, but even then, I can’t remember a single site (besides some experimental demos) that doesn’t work for me. What do you do that you encounter so many?
- boba7 4 years ago>This Teams meeting won't run on firefox
>F You
>switch useragent to chrome
>It works
Thank you Microsoft!
- squarefoot 4 years ago"Half the websites I try to use nowadays dont even work on Firefox on desktop and I need to use a chromium browser to get them to work."
Are you sure they don't work because some parts are axed by an adblocker? I use only Firefox without any issues, except a few cases in which turning off or reconfiguring the usual adblockers does the job. And I keep uMatrix on, which blocks a lot of stuff by default.
- kichimi 4 years agoWhich ones? I've not had a single website fail on Firefox for a decade.
- Semaphor 4 years ago
- everyone 4 years ago
- diegoperini 4 years ago> what can be done, at this point?
* VPN for network encryption
* Black hole filters for telemetry
* OS-like special purpose software running as admin to escape from default OS tooling (i.e browsers, game launchers)
* Throwaway accounts for all online services
* VMs for everything else
* A strong stomach to endure this burden
- quijoteuniv 4 years agoYes, linux, wireguard, pihole, ublock, DuckDuckGo , command line, vim and keep continually improving. :)
And patiently explaining windows and apple is not the way :)
- benbristow 4 years agoWorks great until you try and install Photoshop.
- benbristow 4 years ago
- quijoteuniv 4 years ago
- DavideNL 4 years ago> what can be done, at this point?
- Vote for a political party which creates laws to protect privacy
- Donate to companies like Signal, Noyb.eu, EFF who had success fighting for user privacy
- netsec_burn 4 years agoI believe the parent comment is referring to user freedom, not really user privacy. Freedom isn't Signal's strong suit (e.g. strict stance on third party clients and incorporating bloat into their application like MobiCoin), something with federation like Matrix might be a better option.
- netsec_burn 4 years ago
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4 years ago>beyond something like going with Linux or BSD for personal use?
Why is this off the table? This is precisely what you do. The other thing you do is tend your own garden and not worry about what operating system other people use.
- etempleton 4 years agoDare I say that MacOS and Windows are no longer for you or I.
With almost all OS updates I find the focus of new features are things that I never use even on my personal machines as a regular user, though I recognize many people do use these features. Computers are appliances for most people. Steve Jobs vision is coming to full fruition. Smart phones just had to show how it could work. And for most people computers are infinitely more usable and less scary today.
With that being said, I do think Windows 11 looks quite nice and there are a lot of little quality of life improvements. Also the removal of the awful tiles in the start menu will save me time from removing each tile one by one, so I can’t be all mad here.
I imagine if you have Windows 10 Pro you can upgrade to 11 Pro for free. I also wonder if the consumer version of Windows 11 just starts becoming truly free because Microsoft knows they will make money on search, subscriptions, and enterprise.
- toomanyducks 4 years agoThis direction feels too natural to me: there's so much motivation for a corporation to control the consumer that I don't see how any individual solution will enact change as a steeply uphill battle. The whole situation is almost like climate change, where the corporations responsible are too big and too misaligned to change.
If it's not too late to radically alter our economic system to combat climate change (which I certainly hope it isn't) I think we can fix tech by almost extension.
- II2II 4 years ago> Every day I feel like a passive spectator watching the industry move in a direction that is worrying ... What is the strategic move, beyond something like going with Linux or BSD for personal use?
The solution is to stop being a passive spectator and to start making proactive decisions. To make proactive decisions, you will need to decide what is important to you since you will never find the perfect solution. (There never was a perfect solution in any domain, only better and worse ones for a particular situation.)
If you've decided that you need Windows, that's fine. You will have to deal with the consequences of that particular decision, but it does not have to dictate every decision that follows. You can still choose applications that don't impose some sort of consumption model, require online accounts, or depend upon telemetry. I don't know what the situation is like for commercial software under Windows (surely there are some vendors who respect privacy), but there are always open source alternatives to consider. Feel free to choose according to your circumstances. If you're a graphics designer who needs Adobe products for your job, but can get away with LibreOffice for administrative tasks, then choose that mixture. Even though your decision won't put any pressure on Adobe, someone else's decision may (e.g. an office worker who uses Office 365 and Inkscape).
The way I see it, there are two big problems with the computer industry today: people don't like to acknowledge competing products that may better serve their needs when there is already a dominant player, and those who are aware of the alternatives are rarely willing to support them. In effect, this problem is partially the making of consumers who have been behaving as passive spectators.
- tomjen3 4 years agoOur error was to assume that the general person had a need for computation, when all they have a need for is information and communication. Sure in the 90's they brought newer faster computers but back then those newer computers were much better, and some people will buy the iPhone Max Pro when they don't need it, because it is the best/biggest and they are buying a status symbol. I am sure some of the upgrades back then where for the same reason.
For information, you can bring your phone with you everywhere but it is hard to do so with a laptop, so a phone wins. Phones are also easy to use for calls/messages and video, where the camera is actually better than anything available on a laptop.
A few people might want to balance their budgets, but it is also pretty easy to do on your phone, as your bank probably has an app that you can use and if not, your phone is plenty fast to do that.
Gamers might be the last who cares about the more powerful computers, but even then dedicated gamer phones exist, so maybe that niche is also slowly aging out as new gamers grew up with phones.
If you want some sort of solution, I think having a really good Linux build that works and which can be deployed on laptops in the moment a person gets too tired of windows is always a solid idea.
- 4 years ago
- deviledeggs 4 years agoThe plan is to use technology to make it so you can't own anything anymore.
The tech monopolies want their tithe. That's why you can't buy Photoshop or office anymore.
Soon you won't buy Windows, you will simply rent it forever. One day you won't own your phone or computer either. It's far more profitable to extract rent from your customers indefinitely when you're the only game in town.
The government needs to step in. By a great many metrics were living in another 30's gilded age, robber barons and all.
- Black101 4 years agoSince Windows 10, MS is getting its inspiration from Android and iOS... I'd be scared to touch Windows 11.
- emouryto 4 years agoYou are dismissing exactly the strategic move that's within reach.
Windows basically does not exist for home users except a few Western countries, and even there it's just due to inertia.
I've had great success with Ubuntu for non-technical users. For games you get a game console or play something in the browser. For everything else Ubuntu will do just fine.
Same with macOS... Regular folk have no reason to buy macOS. It's pure class signaling at this point.
Of course, there are business tools on each of these OSes, but if you make money with Adobe tools might as well buy the Pro OS.
- Santosh83 4 years agoWindows is particularly prevalent in developing countries actually, outside of tech circles which gravitate more towards MacOS (if it can be afforded) or Linux.
- Santosh83 4 years ago
- flohofwoe 4 years ago
- Zhyl 4 years agoTo everyone reading this who feels uneasy about this, has broader concerns about the direction of desktop computing generally and Microsoft Windows specifically I say this: "give Linux a go".
You may not like it, you may go back to Windows and decide that the dark patterns are worth the cost of things 'just working' etc, but I implore you to at least give it a go. Burn a Live USB. Boot it up and have a look around. If you're coming from Windows 10, try Linux mint or anything with the 'Cinnamon' Desktop.
I say this mostly because the Hackernews crowd is generally pro-Linux as a concept, but sceptical of Linux as a daily driver. Those that do use it as a daily driver will (in my anecdotal experience) have been using it for 5-10 years or more and will have been used to making a good deal of compromises, or are tech savvy enough to have been able to fix things in the bad times.
But in the last few years desktops have gotten really good. You will likely find one that you like out of the latest versions of Cinnamon, KDE or Gnome. Or MATE/XFCE/LMQT if you want to go back for a lightning-quick old school feel.
Since 2018, thousands of games now work. It's now 'good enough' for pretty much all single player games. I ask people who haven't tried Linux since before then to have another try (or at the very least to look up the games they play on ProtonDB to see if they would work nowadays).
In short, a larger (albeit probably still small) number of people who would have jumped the Windows ship in 2015 instead of going to 10 will actually be able to do so now instead of upgrading to Windows 11.
- jlkuester7 4 years ago+1 Don't get overwhelmed by the miriad of Linux distros to choose from. As OP said, start with Linux Mint. It is super user-friendly and based on Ubuntu/Debian which makes it stable and widely supported in terms of applications, drivers, etc. You can always switch to something more exotic later if you want, but IMHO Mint is one of the best there is for a normal Desktop experience.
- pongo1231 4 years agoWhile using Linux itself as my desktop OS isn't a problem for me (I'm quite comfy with Arch + KDE, also yes the obligatory I use arch btw :p), my problem so far which has always caused me to just go "f it, back to Windows I go" has been productivity.
Basically what I'm missing is an equilavent to Visual Studio for my line of "work" (game modding and reverse engineering with IDA + x86dbg and working with the win32 API). Writing and especially debugging windows binaries with mingw + winedbg has been painful for me so far, also I simply couldn't find any IDE/editor I could get comfortable with (I've tried VS code, kdevelop, qt creator and vim so far). Contrary to that VS simply let's me create a new project with a few clicks which lets me immediately get to work, gives me premade Release / Debug configurations with (mostly) sane defaults, an intuitive GUI for managing compiler + linker settings, running and debugging with the click of a button with multiple views for resource consumption, local vars and what not, the ability to easily debug dump files, etc. etc. Essentially in the time I tried to get basically anything done on any of the other toolsets I've probably already done some actual work on VS. It just works perfectly for my use case.
The last time I've tried running Linux I actually went through the effort of setting up a KVM VM with dGPU pass through + intel gvt-g to drive the SPICE display (I have a laptop with an integrated + dedicated gpu and that seemed like the most intuitive setup) and - while it did work fairly well - the refresh rate was kind of off (even after patching QEMU to allow for more than the hardcoded 30Hz) and there was some weird stutter that I couldn't resolve (I've tried setting up virtio devices + installing the corresponding drivers, enabling hyper-v enlightments, changing the amount of vcpus, core pinning, static hugepages, etc. already, nothing helped in my case unfortunately). Those along with the realization there isn't much of a point of not simply running it in bare metal if I'm going to be in the VM most of the time anyways, brought me back to where I am right now: running Windows out of necessity / comfort.
Not sure what to classify this wall of text as (a mixture of rant and search for suggestions?) but that's essentially the cause of the "dilemma" (nothing short of a first-world problem basically) I'm in right now: I want to run Linux as my desktop OS and regularly try to do so but as soon as I want to be productive I just have to reach out to Windows again.
- abraxas 4 years agoWhat's the status of SteamVR on Linux? VR is the sole reason I still have a windows machine around.
- devetec 4 years agoAn article about this: https://boilingsteam.com/the-state-of-virtual-reality-on-lin...
- devetec 4 years ago
- fsflover 4 years ago> Burn a Live USB. Boot it up and have a look around.
Note however that if your device is designed to run Windows you may have occasional problems with WiFi or suspend. This is not a Linux fault. I am using a laptop designed for Linux and it is rock-solid.
- Spivak 4 years agoOh it’s 100% a Linux problem. You can’t just be like “well driver support for this hardware is bad” and throw up your hands. It might be spiritually the manufacturer’s fault but the end user will never care.
The fact that there’s no way for non-technical users to figure out if a given hardware configuration will actually work for them makes it a non-starter, especially when the spectrum isn’t “works perfectly” or “fails catastrophically” but the frustrating middle where it kinda works but not always. Suspend might work on Tuesday, multi-monitor will fail with this dongle but not this one. Nvidia Optimus will only work three times ever and you can’t turn off the dedicated GPU to save power or pass it through to a VM because of how it’s wired.
Fedora is my daily driver but I would never suggest that it’s as easy as “oh just install Fedora” when I had to painstakingly research every piece of hardware in my laptop to see what the support was like.
- fsflover 4 years ago> The fact that there’s no way for non-technical users to figure out if a given hardware configuration will actually work for them makes it a non-starter
There is: Buy a computer with preinstalled Linux. I did and it works. You can later install another Linux flavor and it will work, too. Even Qubes OS works for me with reliable suspend and WiFi.
> You can’t just be like “well driver support for this hardware is bad” and throw up your hands. It might be spiritually the manufacturer’s fault but the end user will never care.
Would you also complain if your Windows installation doesn't work reliably on a Macbook? This is a user's fault if they are trying to use the device in an unintended way. Although the Linux community is trying to support everything, this is practically impossible.
- fsflover 4 years ago
- Spivak 4 years ago
- nokya 4 years agoFour reasons I gave up Linux each time I tried: 1. Laptop battery falling to half what I get under Windows. 2. No full-disk encryption, there is always one partition that stays in clear. 2. There is no hibernate. 3. I need to run Office apps (I can't force my employer and all our clients to suddenly forget Office).
The day these issues are resolved, Windows is no more. To me at least.
- _-david-_ 4 years agoFor #1 have you used tlp? This has made my battery quite comparable to windows. It may depend on the laptop though.
For #2 as far as I know it is possible and I believe OpenSuse does this by default. https://en.opensuse.org/SDB:Encrypted_root_file_system
- nokya 4 years agoHi D., thanks for the advice on tlp, I had never heard of it. I noted it down for my next tryout.
For Suse, I will be honest, I am not brave enough to switch to another distribution now that I have learned my basics on another one. If tlp works well, I could give it a try though.
thanks!
- nokya 4 years ago
- _-david-_ 4 years ago
- jlkuester7 4 years ago
- xg15 4 years ago> Microsoft does allow you many, many options to guard your privacy within Windows 10—but it’s also betting you won’t bother.
I think this sums up the issues I have with most of the discussions where "consumer choice" or "personal responsibility" are touted.
Yes, those are valid and important concepts - but if a company is emphasizing "choice" while at the same time having a vital interest that people "choose" against their own interests (or even manipulating people to that effect), the argument becomes obvious bullshit.
It's like food companies emphasizing "consumer choice" whenever stricter regulations are on the table, yet at the same time opposing anything that would actually allow consumers to make an informed choice (like easy to understand nutrition labels).
- JCWasmx86 4 years agoTracking/Telemetry should always be opt-in. Or at least like:
Do you want to send following data: <Data that will be collected,...> <legalese>:
Big font: NO Small font: Yes
This would be the fairest design for all. Users would be able to make informed consent, vendors get data on a moral good way.
- yrro 4 years agoThey would just do what most web sites do, and ask users again and again, every day, multiple times per day until the user cracks and irrevocably opts in.
- yrro 4 years ago
- makecheck 4 years agoThis is kind of how I felt when originally using Facebook, LinkedIn, etc.; sure they have dozens of “privacy settings” but (1) I did not really want to spend hours checking all the boxes a certain way, (2) they could change at any time, e.g. some awful new setting would invariably appear, naturally with an equally-awful default value (from the user’s point of view), and (3) there is no guarantee these things are coded correctly.
For (3), there’s a pretty good chance just from code rot that your “settings” may not always work. Certainly not if some company’s entire business model seems to depend on the more anti-consumer values for “settings”, you can bet they will not heavily invest in testing their accuracy.
And the real problem for privacy-related settings is that if they ever fail to protect you, even being buggy for just a short period of time, your information is then out there. Leaked. Gone. Even if you close the barn door, the animals have left. It is the type of software that has to be working 100% of the time to really protect data.
So I don’t really want privacy “settings”, I want privacy, period. That should be the default and only behavior, where the user has the only keys.
- JCWasmx86 4 years ago
- Santosh83 4 years agoEverybody is focusing on local/MS account. But for me the more insidious requirement is mandating TPM chip. Not only in the short term a ton of computers will either have to be discarded (because you can't add a TPM chip to an existing system despite 'open' PC architecture), or stay on outdated Win10, in the long term the DRM implications are worrying.
- dogma1138 4 years agoMany PC motherboards have a TPM header either dedicated or sometimes shared with the USB 3.0 header.
You can buy a 20 pin TPM module for about £3 which can plug into the standard header and for about £7-8 for those snowflakes like ASUS that use the same 20 pin interface but with a slightly modified pin out.
The only question would be the BIOS initialization, but many OEMs have already released new BIOS revisions with added/better external TPM support or have announced their intention to do so.
For those system who don’t have a TPM header, Intel PTT and AMD’s PSP fTPM would provide the required compatibility.
And this is a good thing if this was still optional it would not put pressure on manufacturers to add TPM support as a standard feature.
Windows 10 will be supported to at least 2025 with feature updates and probably longer with critical security updates.
The fact that people complain about this is ridiculous.
- devetec 4 years agoTPM modules are not £3. They're $50 or more now. Many people use older hardware without TPM support, and many people don't know what TPMs are and how to add them. Entire enterprises of hardware would have to be upgraded. It's a ploy to create more sales for hardware manufacturers.
- dogma1138 4 years agoNo they aren’t $50… since I don’t want to include eBay/Amazon here is from CCL computers in the UK for £8.99 https://m.cclonline.com/product/214437/90MC03W0-M0XBN/Compon...
Here is an ASRock one for £13.99 from Scan https://www.scan.co.uk/products/asrock-trusted-platform-modu...
- dogma1138 4 years ago
- jumpman_miya 4 years agoTaste those boots
- devetec 4 years ago
- xg15 4 years ago> or stay on outdated Win10
This will be the most straight-forward thing to happen. I predict that MS will have to start another massive campaign to get people to upgrade again, like they did with WinXP. I wonder how well that will work if it means buying a new PC though.
- PaulKeeble 4 years agoIn the XP days we were still looking at fairly substantial improvements in CPU speeds, but the past decade has been really disappointingly poor on that front and people are fully aware that old PCs can more than happily cope with their software needs. It is much harder to force them to do something where the tangible benefits of doing it are reduced so dramatically.
- xg15 4 years agoIndeed - but I believe it was already difficult in the XP days. From personal experience, many of my non-technical peers initially saw no point in updating at all: They were perfectly content with their PC's performance, and had all programs they needed. Sweeping UI changes and old programs not working anymore was seen as significant risks.
MS had to rely on a lot of developer advocacy, an increased focus on the risk of unpatched security vulnerabilities (a valid point IMO) and a general narrative of avoiding "outdated software", (as if software had an expiry date) to increase the willingness to update. Even with that, in the end they had to patch XP to add nag screens to make people update.
Now, with less performance improvements, less developer advocacy (I hope) and more obvious anti-features, I imagine they will need to employ even more force to make people update.
- xg15 4 years ago
- PaulKeeble 4 years ago
- johnwalkr 4 years agoI predict they will give up this requirement. Not only do a lot of systems not have TPM and secure boot, probably half of windows 10 systems don’t have them set up correctly to meet the requirement which means a ton of people will meet the requirements on paper and then get confused as to why windows won’t upgrade.
- dafelst 4 years agoThe strange thing is that Microsoft know exactly how many win10 machines already meet this requirement via their telemetry, so ostensibly they have made this decision with full knowledge (assuming no data mining fuck ups, which are disappointingly common at MS) of how many machines will or won't be able to upgrade.
Some options:
- they don't care about the machines that don't have compatible TPMs (lower value customers?)
- a ploy to drive hardware sales?
- something else?
- johnwalkr 4 years agoI kind of doubt it is a business decision. It probably comes from a security requirement for Windows Hello or something else. Or it could be from a technical manager that doesn't want to support endless configurations. Either way, I just can't imagine that the backwards-compatibility DNA of MS will let this stay.
- johnwalkr 4 years ago
- dafelst 4 years ago
- yrro 4 years agoHow is the TPM used for DRM?
- Santosh83 4 years agoBy establishing an unbreakable trusted software chain, which in turn will enforce DRM.
- Santosh83 4 years ago
- dogma1138 4 years ago
- tpoacher 4 years ago"In unrelated news, piracy levels have steadily increased since Microsoft unveiled the latest version of their popular OS. Bizzarly pirates seem to be targetting the 'Pro' variant exclusively. Microsoft officials stated that this is a worrying sign that even stronger online security and surveillance is necessary. The company has therefore been working on a new authentication system, which will require the user to be hooked up to an EEG at all times to remain connected to their session. Microsoft said this will be their most secure platform yet!"
- devetec 4 years agoYou can't really pirate Windows. They offer download links for free for anyone to use. You can use it for free and while you have an "Activate Windows" watermark, it'd be fine. The only way to get Windows Pro would be to get a license key, which can't really be pirated also.
- scrps 4 years agoWhy EEG though? Just link it to DNA. Plus added bonus of hardware lock-in for MS to roll out some new biometric hardware, I think SmartPrick would be an apt name for it.
- tpoacher 4 years ago"MS is proud to announce our combined EEG+SmartPrick based 'always connected' technology..."
- tpoacher 4 years ago
- devetec 4 years ago
- jlkuester7 4 years agoMy list of applications that I need to run on Windows, instead if Linux, has almost completely disappeared (I can only think of one). I have used Linux for probably 15 years and can say that the user experience has never been better (for the lay person that just wants something that works).
The final nail in the coffin of Windows for me is Steam Play. So many of my Windows games just work, right out of the box on Linux. It feels like magic compared to the old days of trying to hack together a workable Wine config...
- nirui 4 years agoWell that's really a bold move, given the current states of their (confusing) account system and it's (even more confusing) integration, see:
- https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10...
- https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10...
- https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10...
Or just search "Microsoft Account Problem".
- nly 4 years agoMy suspicion is the option to allow installation via a local account (by disconnecting the network) will remain come RTM. They're likely just pressing the issue now to gauge reaction.
- 14 4 years agoMy reaction will be to finally bother to install a Linux installation. Sure a lot of people say that then do nothing but seriously after losing my hotmail account and not being able to reach anyone for help and knowing my password and still being locked out I have no plans on creating another Microsoft account.
- TheFreim 4 years agoI can sympathize with losing an old Hotmail account. I had a live/Hotmail account that got locked years ago and it's impossible for me to remember details I used. The accounts linked to the email are very near and dear to me and I still get sad thinking about how ill never be able to login again.
- TheFreim 4 years ago
- orev 4 years agoThey have already been pushing this heavily in the Windows 10 installer to either “gauge the reaction”, or more likely, to let everyone know that this is coming and there’s nothing you can do to stop it. The time of “gauging the reaction” is over and now it will be the requirement.
- 14 4 years ago
- sschueller 4 years agoEvery so often after a patch Tuesday windows 10 will try to force me the login with a MS account. I have to hit ctrl-alt-del a few time and logout of the local user to get around this garbage. I am so sick of this.
I wish everything I needed ran in linux.
- 0xy 4 years agoWhat do you need that doesn't run on Linux or some combination of virtualization or software tools?
I cut Windows out of my life almost entirely after the encroachment of user hostile policies such as telemetry and have found I don't really miss much.
- scrps 4 years agoFor me it has been Fusion 360 and Adobe CC that has kept the one windows hold-out alive among my systems. I've been trying to transition to freecad and gimp (would be very grateful for any lightroom/photo management suggestions for linux) but I just haven't had the time to learn them throughly enough to switch.
- scrps 4 years ago
- mysterydip 4 years agoDoes everything else you need either run under Wine or a locked-down windows 7/8 VM?
- sschueller 4 years agoIt's mostly music software, but I have to give it a try in a win VM.
- throwaway675309 4 years agoSame for me. I've heard that attempting to use WINE/JACK for progs like ableton can add measurable latency which can be detrimental when using ASIO, but maybe a full VM would work better.
- throwaway675309 4 years ago
- sschueller 4 years ago
- Causality1 4 years agoIf you need bare metal Windows performance you could always dual boot Windows AME.
- stinos 4 years agoThis is on Windows Home then?
- edgeform 4 years ago[citation needed] on that attempted forced MSA claim. I use a local account from inception and have not had a single issue being bothered to use an MSA.
- Santosh83 4 years agoAgree with you. Used to use an MS account on the old installation, whose HDD died. Now using Win10 Home with local account and it hasn't tried to sneak me on to an MS account after the install process itself, where I still found the option to skip creating an online account as early as three months back. Supposedly Home is most restricted Windows version.
However this does mean I don't get sync and other fancy features like locating the device and other remote stuff. Not particularly bothered, but I do wonder if my old MS account will get deactivated after a certain period of disuse. Perhaps I'll just login on the browser to keep it alive.
- sschueller 4 years agoI'll make photos next time. All I can tell you is that I have win10 pro with a local account and from time to time after update I get forced through some stupid wizard which I can't skip unless I ctrl-alt-del out. There is no skip button or do this later button.
- Santosh83 4 years ago
- 0xy 4 years ago
- siddhant09 4 years agoCould future of computing be just computer clients leveraging the cloud compute? If services like Google Stadia becomes as ubiquitous as email, no average user would bat an eye on required web login.
You want to render a complete VR map of a nation? Maybe you require petabytes of ram and compute power of a today's server farm? Worry not, your phone weighing 140g can do it, all by leveraging cloud compute.
Even if this future doesn't materialize, incentives for MS are clear and this requirement shall open up more integration opportunities than before.
Also there is no competition.
Linux has the following problems which have largely remained unsolved, since the community fails to even recognize them as an issue.
1. No 1080p or 4K video playback on Netflix.
2. Not even 720p video playback on Amazon Prime Video.
3. Games take a performance hit.
4. Single click installations of .deb almost never works. .exe and .dmg are a much better user experience.
5. Ubuntu store is broken. It sometime loads, most times it doesn't.
6. Absence of Adobe.
7. An average user is expected to open up terminal when things go wrong and thing often do go wrong.
An OS company can divide their customers into Developers, Video/Audio Editors, Content Consumption, Office work and Gamers. Linux only and only caters to us Developers.
- kijin 4 years ago> local account users ... won’t be able to sync content or use Windows 11’s ability to sync or recommend content from other devices.
Is that meant to make you feel like you'd be missing out on something? Do people still fall for this kind of language, or is it just the marketing department patting themselves on the back?
Yeah, I'd love to cripple my own ability to get "recommended content" (we all know what that is) from anywhere at all.
- shrubble 4 years agoThank God for the massive increase in CPU power of ARM microcontrollers and the retro-computing movement.
Such as the Teensy 4.1, which can run CPM in emulation among other things. With a large capacity SD card, you could store a great deal of info on a non-compromised device.
I believe that people will start using them as secure methods to store personal information away from the prying eyes of Microsoft et al.
- isodev 4 years agoFrom the article: > The Windows 11 Home MSA requirement isn’t permanent, just unavoidable.
Combine that with the fact that "essential telemetry" can't be disabled by normal means (and thus Windows will continue to send "diagnostic" data to Microsoft) and it seems one's PC is not unlike one's Android phone...
One of the most commented features of Windows 11 seems to be the ability to run Android apps. I was very excited about it... but then, if I want to use my Android apps on Windows 11, I am going to need not only my Google account, but also my Microsoft account and something called an Amazon account. That's a lot of accounts to just run an app. A lot of third parties to share my personal data with. A lot of Terms of Service to read and a lot of GDPR "consent" clicks for me to give away my privacy.
While I definitely appreciate "end to end" working ecosystems, it was always a bit of a relief to be able to go back to an "open" PC. I guess that choice is still available, as long as it's not powered by Windows.
- Krasnol 4 years ago> I am going to need not only my Google account, but also my Microsoft account and something called an Amazon account
I can't imagine there won't be ways around all that pretty soon.
- Krasnol 4 years ago
- jftuga 4 years agoWhat are the best Linux distros for developers?
- e-clinton 4 years agoI don’t think this is about telemetry. I think this is about Messaging. With Teams being integrated into Windows, every Win11 user will be a new Teams user and will push Teams to the billions of users eventually.
- sstephant 4 years agoYou don't own the system anymore, the system owns you :/
- isodev 4 years agoTechnically we still own the hardware, we are just installing the "Windows Service" (OS as a Service?) on it.
- binarybanana 4 years ago>Technically we still own the hardware Nope, signed firmware updates and no way to downgrade after the fact means the manufacturer ultimately has more control over "your" hardware than you do. You still "own" it in a legal sense, but not in the sense that it's completely under your control and only does what you think it does.
I think a way to override that forced signed firmware crap should be mandated by law, but things are going the other way. If flashing unsigned firmware voided the warranty and made goatse show up at boot or whatever to warn about possibly unwanted modification that would be fine. Not having that option at all is bad for making full use of the hardware, bad for privacy and bad for security.
- binarybanana 4 years ago
- isodev 4 years ago
- everyone 4 years agoI'm betting that windows 10 LTSB will be supported until windows 11, or 12 (or whatever) LTSB is released.
(ps. I cant switch to Linux 100%, I need to use windows for work as I am a game dev.. It's probably possible to do my job entirely in linux with wine and whatnot, but in software development it is a pretty bad idea to make ones job unnecessarily more difficult and complicated, and throw up barriers to shipping)
- mickotron 4 years agoMy PCs at home run linux. I run a Windows 10 VM on qemu/KVM for work, and that has worked for me for 16 months of remote work.
The crazy hardware requirements for windows 11 won't apply to VMs apparently. And my work will provide me with a Microsoft account, so that is fine. Plus it's a work-only machine, clear segregation.
- aj3 4 years agoLTSB is already not supported by various games, Adobe products and even MS Office.
- binarybanana 4 years agoLTSC does work fine though, at least for all games I tried and it's supported until 2029. Question is how long you'll be able to get drivers and when games stop working on it. Dunno about other software, I only use Windows are a game console OS in a VM.
- binarybanana 4 years ago
- mickotron 4 years ago
- _Understated_ 4 years agoMy $0.02
I've been on Windows forever. Since DOS 3 or 4 I think (giving away my age there!) and until recently (last few years) it has fulfilled every one of my requirements, that is, games, development, consumption.
I'm a .NET developer so the Windows ecosystem was a no-brainer: Visual Studio just works... sort of. As an end-user everything works: I don't need to install drivers, hit the command line or anything.
Windows has been great over the years.
However...
The last few years have been a downward spiral. Not just downward, but accelerating downwards.
It started (for me at least!) with the forced upgrade from Windows 7 (or 8, can't remember), then came the utterly shit Windows updates - The updates for Windows 10 are shite. Plain and simple. A couple of years ago I'd had enough so I disabled Windows updates so that I could install them well after their release date as I was sick of being their beta-tester. There are literally bugs with every update now. I know we are talking about a few years ago, but I absolutely did not have issues with updates on Windows 7. Ever! Windows 10 has at least one show-stopping bug every couple of months now (it seems like that anyway).
It's now getting to the point that not only do I have less control over my own paid-for installation of Windows, but each update reduces my control ever more... I've harped on about it before (not just in this post, but others too) but disabling updates is a lesson in frustration. It's possible to do it but if you update later, they are switched back on - happens every time!
Then there's the telemetry! I'm not going to labour this point as it has been done to death already over the years but the sheer fucking arrogance of a company that takes my money, reduces my control over my paid-for product, then says "oh, we're going to take data from your operating system whether you want us to or not" is beyond the pale! Yes, yes, I know Android spying is the stuff of legend but it has been like that from day one! It's how Google makes its money. Microsoft used to not be dicks about you having control over your OS. Those days are long gone.
Dark patterns! Let me say NO to things and then just fuck off please! Why does everything have to be infantilized? Why does the YES button say "Yes please! I want rainbows and unicorns" and the NO button say "I'm a climate-denying terrorist if I click this". Worse, is when the "no" button says "maybe later" or "not right now". I hate that crap. And why do you have to make the positive button (I say positive, but I mean the button that's more beneficial to Microsoft!) massive and outlined when the other one is tiny and just text? Microsoft aren't the only ones that do that... I need to point that out!
The need for the OS to constantly keep me informed, or tell me about X, or jump in my face with this thing, or show me the latest news tipped me over the edge.
I want my operating system to do the following:
1. Store and launch my software
2. Be secure
3. Stay out of my way!
That's it.
I've had a few goes at Ubuntu and found it lacking. Nothing major but a few annoying things related to hardware: sound popping, graphics glitching, FF crashing, printer stopping working. Stuff like that but I'm on Pop! OS now. Just installed 20.04 the other day after playing with 20.10 for a couple of weeks (not a fan of 21.04 and I like the LTS idea especially when my livelihood depends on said computer!).
I can still programme .NET stuff with Rider (getting the hang of it, it's quite nice and it is way more responsive than VS which has become a buggy nightmare over the years!). Docker allows me to run SQL server (still use that quite a lot) and, interestingly the Docker SQL image runs faster than SQL server when it was installed natively on my Windows box... weird! It's very noticeable too.
Anyway, I'm too old to fight with the OS any more, and POP! seems to be ticking all the right boxes for now. I have to keep a W10 VM around for a couple of things but it's off most of the day.
Edit: I had a go at the "leaked" version of Windows 11 and I wasn't enamored. As a friend of mine once said: "Same shite, different smell!"
- GordonS 4 years agoI agree with a lot of what you are saying, but wanted to add a counter-anecdote about updates.
We have 3x Windows 10 laptops, a MBP that dual-boots with Windows 10, and a Windows 10 tower. On top of that, I also run a Windows 10 VM.
All are running Enterprise edition (I have the Microsoft Action Pack, which includes 10x Enterprise eds licenses), so it doesn't force updates (though it can be a little naggy at times, but I think that's fair enough for security updates at least).
All machines are kept updated at least weekly, though I stay away from the bigger "feature updates" until they've had time to bed-in.
I haven't had a single problem at all with Windows 10 updates during the years I've been using it.
As an aside: even as a relative Windows fanboi, Windows 11 seems like a pointless and unwanted exercise in moving things around and making colours more garish for no reason - a waste of a version bump.
- _Understated_ 4 years agoFor me, the errors were rarely major although I do remember an update breaking access to my printer: that required reinstallation.
I sometimes had network issues after updates. Things like Outlook not being able to connect as the icon in the tray showed I wasn't online despite being online.
There were others, all fairly small but they were part of a pattern of worsening quality... they seem to be prioritizing looks and features over stability. Visual Studio is guilty of this too: feature-tastic but less stable than older versions.
Borked updates can be worked around: I disabled Windows update and put up with them but add to that the notifications, infantilization, less control, dark patterns and it all adds up to a "different" Microsoft than the Windows 7 days.
I was a bit of a fanboi too: Microsoft's ecosystem got me to where I am today in my career but no more. I'm done with the tech oligarchs and their increasing levels of control: Linux works really well for me and my clients use it for their infrastructure so no better time than the present :)
- _Understated_ 4 years ago
- GordonS 4 years ago
- tim333 4 years agoThough can't you just register an account like MickeyMouse123 @hotmail and use that? I know it's annoying but doesn't seem the end or the world. That said I dumped Windows after 7 and am a happy Mac/Linux user.
- fouric 4 years agoCould one get a fake Microsoft account with an email address and phone number tied to a service like Mailinator? Sure, if it were possible it would only be a temporary solution, but that's better than nothing.
- andrepew 4 years agoNo because security of the system is tied to security of that email account because the password can be reset through it. The Microsoft account serves as the means to authenticate in Windows.
- andrepew 4 years ago
- c7DJTLrn 4 years agoThat's OK. I have great faith in the huge community of hackers and tweakers that mess around with Windows - there will inevitably be a PowerShell script or Registry tweak for getting around it.
- phendrenad2 4 years agoI'd love to see the Venn diagram of people who are put off by this, and people who still need to run windows programs and can't switch to Linux. Probably no overlap at all.
- BiteCode_dev 4 years agoThe subtext here is that you can't install Windows 11 Home you don't have an internet connection.
- 2Gkashmiri 4 years agoAs long as rdpwrap works
- anotheryou 4 years agothey really know how to encourage piracy
- xony 4 years agoAnother Window Vista making
- lambada 4 years agoWindows 10 (any version) doesn’t let you install it without a microsoft account these days - it used to, but they removed that function during one of the updates. They do let you transition to a local account after install though. That caught me by surprise when i had to reinstall a fresh copy of Windows 10 at one point
So a version that does let you install with just a local account right off the bat is a strict improvement from my point of view.
Maybe the article authors were unaware of that change to the Windows 10 install process - it certainly would explain the odd slanting.
Edit: interesting, from the replies it looks like you either have to not connect to the network or say you are going to join a domain (which was untrue in my case) that explains why i couldn’t find the option then!
- viraptor 4 years agoYou can still install Win 10 with a local account if you don't configure / unplug the network. A couple months ago I could also skip the online account on win 10 pro by going through some dark pattern (maybe failing to log in, then selecting offline option?)
- 14 4 years agoThis was the user hostile trick I used last time. Tell it no internet connection and set up local account. I imagine one day everything will be 5G connected and then Microsoft will expect the account no matter where you are.
- resoluteteeth 4 years agoYou just have to say that you're going to join a domain. It doesn't make you actually join a domain and it let's you create a local account. No need to unplug it or fail to log in or anything like that.
- 14 4 years ago
- tonyedgecombe 4 years agoWindows 10 (any version) doesn’t let you install it without a microsoft account these days
Yes it does, I did it this week.
- dsissitka 4 years ago> Windows 10 (any version) doesn’t let you install it without a microsoft account these days - it used to, but they removed that function during one of the updates.
Unless things have changed in the last eight days this isn't right.
- Springtime 4 years agoI did a fresh install late last year on Pro (using the official v2004 ISO) and this wasn't the case while being offline during the install. Has it changed since?
Edit: typo, had 'online' while I meant 'offline'.
- rphln 4 years agoI also installed Pro some weeks ago using the May 2021 ISO and didn't have to use a Microsoft account despite being online. I don't remember having to sidestep any dark patterns either, though maybe I've just become desensitized to them.
edit: Specify that I was online while installing.
- II2II 4 years agoI've done a fresh install of Home and Pro in the past couple of months. There is no requirement to use a Microsoft account if there is no network connection. I also did a fair amount of configuration before connecting to the network, and a lot of the third-party apps that typically get installed alongside Windows were not installed.
The end product was nice, but jumping through the hoops to get there was a pain. It's also rather annoying that I cannot figure out which particular setting(s) prevented the installation of third-party apps.
- nly 4 years agoFor Pro the 'offline account' option is there, but if you select the 'Home' edition it flows like this (1 minute silence video):
- rphln 4 years ago
- 4 years ago
- 4 years ago
- viraptor 4 years ago