ReactOS 0.4.14

198 points by jeditobe 3 years ago | 84 comments
  • ianai 3 years ago
    I wonder if this is anybody's ace in the hole yet? I've done plenty of legacy systems support to know there's value in being able to say "this is a currently supported and active project that supports some tech otherwise unavailable on a commercially supported OS." i.e. the people still supporting Windows XP for things.
    • ankalagon 3 years ago
      Is there any known/public system that use ReactOS? Is there a goal for this OS? a use-case? Any dev-story I can read?

      I'm not criticizing their work or passion, au contraire, it's a spectacular effort the developers are doing, developing an OS with the same API than Windows 2000 from scratch. For me they are giants.

    • krylon 3 years ago
      In a former job, I was a sysadmin at a company that does process engineering for industrial plants, and sometimes the automation/SCADA people would turn to me for help. It was very exciting to me, because a) I got to leave the back office for a short while and actually engage with a customer and b) I got to see firsthand and learn (a little, at least) about industrial plants, which was fascinating.

      I find history fascinating, and I have soft spot for retro/vintage technology, so I got to see and touch some interesting stuff. One customer was doing an upgrade in 2015(!!!) from Windows NT 4.0 to Windows XP (!!!). They could not go further, because they were dependent on some piece of hardware whose vendor had gone out of business, leaving behind device drivers that would not work on any Windows after XP.

      For this kind of customer, I think, the prospect of an operating system where those device drivers would continue to work while also supporting more recent hardware would be very attractive.

      Industrial installations apparently have lifetimes that are far longer than what even "enterprise" operating systems offer, and replacing that Windows NT 4.0 box with a Windows 7 box (let's not even think of anything more recent) is a huge challenge just from the technical perspective. But it gets a lot more hairy when things like certification and compliance to legal requirements come into play, where you cannot just upgrade a box from Windows XP to Windows 10, because then you lose your certification, and re-certifying the installation is a costly and (I assume) tedious procedure.

      TL;DR: I believe there could be pretty lucrative market for ReactOS in industrial applications. It would require a fair amount of up-front capital to get going, but if you can provide support for large-scale industrial customer to keep their systems running for twenty or forty years, there has got to be a lot of money in it.

      • oneplane 3 years ago
        At some point I'd imagine that requiring the source code for such critical components for a long-lived machine is going to be the only sustainable way forward. At this point you'd end up reverse engineering device drivers or using 'unsupported' configurations to keep going.

        Of course the fact that a company that no longer exists can't support such a configuration doesn't matter because they aren't there anymore to care about any of it.

        • MisterTea 3 years ago
          At work we have a glovebox running DOS. The software is written in MS/GW/Q basic and only works with a specific set of ISA IO cards. The manufacturer is long gone but one of their techs bought out the remainder and now gate keeps the software. He has the source but refuses to update, sell, license or release it. Last we spoke to him he wanted $20000 to write a new control program in visual basic using a PCI card and refused to release source code. We flat out said no. The plan is once there are no more spare parts on the shelf the whole thing is getting gutted and a modern PLC system installed in-house.
          • fsflover 3 years ago
            Such stories are exactly the reason why Stallman created FSF.
          • rckoepke 3 years ago
            I have a lot of experience in the industrial SCADA domain. I largely agree with you, but I will say that historically most installations have had all the relevant source code available to them, or owned by them.

            In most cases, the limiting factors for lifespan were: 1) Inability to get replacement hardware 2) Inability to find anyone who can understand the source code.

            There's really no way around issue #1. Having the software source doesn't really help that much because most of the time they'll use "migrations" every 10-15 years to rewrite the code using updated understanding of how they want the plant to work. Kicking off a SCADA upgrade is used as a wonderful convenient excuse to drive a lot of meetings/paperwork processes to define "How can we improve safety, improve reliability, make life easier for the human operators, etc?"

            Nowadays, the thing time-limiting many SCADA installations are licensing for Windows LTSB and PLC/DCS vendor software. Often times newer versions will require new Dell/HPE servers for compatibility. It's expensive, but also not expensive enough to focus on changing.

            The main point is that while licensing artificially limits "longevity" of a machine, closed-source does not. Instead, unavailable replacement hardware limits "longevity" more than "closed source" does.

            • csdvrx 3 years ago
              > Instead, unavailable replacement hardware limits "longevity" more than "closed source" does.

              Just look at the price of used serial consoles with Sixel support.

              Some hardware can be replaced by software... but not all of it.

              • krylon 3 years ago
                From what little insight I could gain, I agree about the hardware problem. The customer I was talking about was nervously trying to find a reliable supplier of motherboards with ISA slots and parallel ports.

                I really love the nostalgia this kind of hardware stirs in me, but I am glad I do not have to deal with that kind of trouble. (A few years ago, I read on another forum about an IT guy getting a call on the weekend from a desparate customer looking for an HDD using some standard that predates non-S-ATA... MFM, I think?)

              • kk6mrp 3 years ago
                Does management really understand how long the equipment is going to be used when it is purchased? From what I've seen, upper management has done the cost analysis before purchasing but maintenance is going to ultimately going to be be responsible for keeping the equipment running. By this point in time, those that approved the purchase are likely retired.
                • stinkytaco 3 years ago
                  I'm not sure what an acceptable time horizon for these types of things is in an industrial setting, but as a middle aged person in management, I'd consider anything that lasts until after I retire a success. I don't deal a lot in mechanical systems, however, but I can certainly see someone who's not fully versed in a technology thinking 20-30 years is a longer lifespan than almost anything they interact with on a daily basis. What is the expected lifespan of system with a microchip that presumably needs to be updated, secured, etc on a regular basis?
                • aspaceman 3 years ago
                  I would find it more likely that old device drivers get decompiled and reverse engineered.

                  Heck I think there's a lot of value in an emulator for old device drivers. Who cares what the source was when you just execute the black box in a highly regulated sandbox? (Note doesn't work for some medical software). I think medicine and astro / aero are the few places that would require full decompilation of an original driver.

              • mdp2021 3 years ago
                How does ReactOS attempt avoiding being affectable by malware? Does it "fully" inherit the "attack surface" of the system it tries to be compatible to? Or are there improvements? Is one supposed to run anti-malware software over it (or keep it networkless)?
                • mixmastamyk 3 years ago
                  Mostly not. A lot of the attack surface has not been implemented yet. :-D

                  When it has, fewer services are running at startup.

                  Generally, it doesn't copy the atrocious early security default configs that were later changed.

                  Don't believe it ships with an old browser or email client, so ~60% of potential issues gone right there.

                  • mschuster91 3 years ago
                    > Is one supposed to run anti-malware software over it (or keep it networkless)?

                    As the biggest vector for malware is not an insecure operating system but user negligency (e.g. by opening malicious attachments in e-mails), it is advisable to have anti-malware software on every machine, regardless of the operating system.

                    • marcodiego 3 years ago
                      > biggest vector for malware is not an insecure operating system but user negligency

                      This is victim blaming. Windows have been teaching users to install from third parties since 90's, added auto-run features to removable media, hid files extensions making it difficult to detect files that could do harm, took a decade to implement processes isolation, never added a good package manager and spent years making fun of FLOSS.

                      Windows users may have a twisted view about security. I personally heard a few of them saying things like "linux is safe because nobody uses it" or "you MUST use an anti-virus". They may sound naive of negligent but in fact, they were carefully trained for decades to behave that way.

                      • samtheDamned 3 years ago
                        > Windows have been teaching users to install from third parties since 90's

                        in this instance ReactOS is more secure than windows from the era it's replicating thanks to it's software center

                        • will4274 3 years ago
                          > Windows have been teaching users to install from third parties

                          ? Installing directly from the source instead of from an intermediary is good, not bad. Walled garden and 1P-only app stores are worse than the problems they fix.

                          > added auto-run features to removable media

                          Imagine computers just working. Who would want that.

                          Seriously, Microsoft has a lot to be criticized for, but none of the things in your comment make the list.

                          • mschuster91 3 years ago
                            You have exactly the same issue in Mac users, though. Yes, Apple has an app store and added confirmation prompts and certificate checks in executables for everyone else, but people still download random stuff and ignore all security warnings.
                          • CountSessine 3 years ago
                            That is, historically, completely false. Windows before WinXP SP2 was a wide-open door for malware. I still remember the whole summer of malware where the IT had to do an emergency shutdown of the whole building network at the switch to stop Blaster from spreading one afternoon.

                            So hopefully ReactOS, while implementing Win2k, includes the XPSP2 mitigations?

                            • projct 3 years ago
                              Blaster was a worm (self-transmitting and replicating without user interaction.) I was in IT when it came out.

                              XP SP2 had the firewall enabled by default in 2001, which blocked incoming SMB protocol requests and other related ports by default ("file and printer sharing" exception checkbox.)

                              Additionally, a security patch for Blaster was released July 16 2003. Blaster itself showed up August 11 2003, so you had almost an entire month to evaluate the security patch.

                              So in order to be affected by Blaster they had to 1. enable sharing of folders on client machines (connecting to servers does not require this firewall exception.) and 2. fail to apply a security patch for a wormable exploit in a timely fashion.

                              That's not wide-open, that's (if they have control of client machines) IT department failure to act responsibly.

                            • Underphil 3 years ago
                              This does not answer the question. If you don't know the answer, it's best not to respond.
                              • ashtonkem 3 years ago
                                > e.g. by opening malicious attachments in e-mails

                                And how pray tell do those malicious emails take over a system if an insecure OS isn’t at fault too?

                                • maskedinvader 3 years ago
                                  This seems no longer true with apples imessage 0 click example [0] for instance. Perhaps you can say using iPhone and iOS which has such a crazy bug is user negligency .

                                  - [0] - https://9to5mac.com/2021/07/19/zero-click-imessage-exploit/

                                  • alophawen 3 years ago
                                    This is nothing new, back in Windows 95 days you could run arbitrary code on a machine just by sending network data.

                                    It is also the kind of bugs that tend to get fixed fast once they are discovered.

                                    The biggest attack vector has for many years been user negligence like randomly opening email attachments, following strange links or just click yes on any pop up.

                              • Koshkin 3 years ago
                                From the About page:

                                > ReactOS looks-like Windows

                                But even Windows does not look like Windows anymore.

                                • Piskvorrr 3 years ago
                                  Windows BFP (before Fisher-Price) ;)
                                  • layer8 3 years ago
                                    I’m disappointed that ReactOS seems to have adopted the flat UI design now.
                                    • feldrim 3 years ago
                                      Flat? Where? I think it's just like Server 2003 or XP Classic theme. Is there a flat UI theme?
                                • Snetry 3 years ago
                                  Its great to see ReactOS still going.

                                  I wonder how much of the newer Wine gaming stuff could be used for ReactOS

                                  • krylon 3 years ago
                                    I think I recall reading something about the two projects cooperating in some form, although I am very fuzzy on the details. But it would create ... synergy! ;-) There is an obvious overlap in what both projects try to achieve, and it's not small.
                                    • AtlasBarfed 3 years ago
                                      With the amount of pirated XP in the wild in China, China should be funding the hell out of this to be independent of Microsoft. So should Russia, the EU, Africa, South America, Japan, etc. Well, I keep saying the same thing about linux as well. I think Linux should be getting billions in yearly support, heck this should be getting 100 million
                                      • tmikaeld 3 years ago
                                        I guess native GPU drivers are the biggest thing that's missing to enable gaming.
                                        • Koshkin 3 years ago
                                          Well, one of the main goals of ReactOS is in fact to be able to use native Windows drivers.
                                          • fps_doug 3 years ago
                                            That's what seems to get a bit weird as time passes. IIRC, they aim at being NT5.2 aka Windows 2003 compatible, but if they don't support newer driver models, that would rule out using any recent GPU, as nVidia doesn't exactly ship XP drivers for the RTX 3080. Curious what their current plans are for this issue.
                                            • monocasa 3 years ago
                                              That's going to be an uphill battle. Graphics drivers of the kind old enough to run on ReactOS do real nasty things to the kernel like binary patching core components at load time. Raymond Chen sort of talks about this here: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20040305-00/?p=40...
                                        • LeSaucy 3 years ago
                                          I love watching Druaga1 install these on ancient hardware.
                                          • knowsuchagency 3 years ago
                                            How is this different from ReactJS? </s>
                                            • Koshkin 3 years ago
                                              One cannot be too careful there. Lindows was sued into oblivion, and so would “Freendows” or “FreeNT” or anything in that vein…