FTX collapse, Tether operations have links to online-poker cheating scandals

311 points by abriosi 2 years ago | 326 comments
  • themgt 2 years ago
    It's incredible that SBF was being touted by Sequoia, WEF, Fortune, chumming it up with Clinton and Blair in the Bahamas, getting meetings and kid glove treatment with the SEC, relatively glowing profile as a "do-gooder" by the NYT.

    All while FTX had a Chief Regulatory Officer who was basically a career white-collar criminal. It beggars belief that anyone who dug half an inch into this story wouldn't have seen 90,000 watt flashing red warning signs.

    Crypto turned into a haven for replaying every form of financial fraud ever invented on an epic speedrun against retail "investors", and a whole lot of powerful people and institutions have dirty hands. The idea all of this could be adequately explained by stupidity rather than malice strains credulity.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/14/business/sam-bankman-frie...

    • AlexandrB 2 years ago
      With every crypto collapse there seems to be an associated failure by the media to do any real digging. The same thing happened with Theranos where, with a few exceptions, the media fawned over Elizabeth Holmes.

      It's hard to tell if the media has gotten worse at their jobs or they've always been this bad and I'm just getting older. There are plenty of earlier scams and bubbles (Enron, dot-com bubble) that slipped under the radar until thing went to shit, so I suspect the latter.

      • boplicity 2 years ago
        > It's hard to tell if the media has gotten worse at their jobs

        It's not that "the media" has gotten worse at their jobs. Rather, there simply a lot less funding for reporters. The hit in funding has become much worse in local reporting -- especially local newspapers. However, if this is viewed as a training ground for the few large national/international news organizations, it's easy to see how this has a profound impact for even the large and well funded publications.

        There's simply much less reporting happening than their used to be, and it's a real problem.

        https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/07/13/u-s-newsroo...

        https://www.statista.com/statistics/626459/number-employees-....

        • commandlinefan 2 years ago
          > a lot less funding for reporters

          There's plenty of funding for and to reporters who aren't trying to discover the truth but instead manufacture it.

          • bmelton 2 years ago
            I don't know if this is right or wrong, but if I were running a news agency, I would think that glowing puff pieces would be one of the first things I'd eliminate in the event of a financial crunch.

            Is there a reason we think they persist?

            • mccorrinall 2 years ago
              The first statistic you link is a newsroom statistic. This cut makes sense, because newspaper now get their news from big agencies.

              Newsrooms are completely different from investigative digging into stuff.

            • brookst 2 years ago
              “The media” is mostly just a bunch of 20-40 year olds with liberal arts bachelors degrees, trying to make ends meet and feed their families.

              Serious investigative reporters with the smarts and experience to dive deep were always the exception, maybe a handful in the world at any given time.

              So IMO, “they’ve always been this bad” is the answer, but it’s not entirely fair. Kind of like saying the cooks at McDonald’s have always been this bad; in fact it has never been their job to do world-class work.

              • pjc50 2 years ago
                > Serious investigative reporters with the smarts and experience to dive deep were always the exception, maybe a handful in the world at any given time.

                Correct answer.

                People dramatically underestimate the extent to which reporters are stenographers: they go to relevant people, get quotes, write some background around the quotes (which itself is derived from previous statements), and hit publish.

                Almost every business article you see is push-driven. The business being covered will issue a press release and it gets rewritten into articles.

                The press are pretty good at attribution: if the NYT says that "Bob said X", you can be pretty sure that an NYT reporter heard Bob say X. That doesn't tell you anything about whether X is true or not.

                • ok123456 2 years ago
                  It wasn't just 'The Morning Call.' It came from the top from the elite, international, consensus making publications like The New York Times and the Washington Post. These are the papers of record that have the resources to still do real journalism. We're harangued by them how 'democracy dies in darkness' every time we click one of their links, and yet they chose to give all these guileless grifters flattering coverage more often than not.
                  • zmgsabst 2 years ago
                    Dominos would be my counterpoint: their pizza was just bad and they could do better. And they did.

                    I think it’s entirely possible that an industry with low competition and high nepotism could just be doing their jobs poorly.

                    Isn’t that why Joe Rogan is more popular than CNN?

                    • vba616 2 years ago
                      >So IMO, “they’ve always been this bad”

                      Vass you dere, Charlie? [1]

                      Misinformation/disinformation may, I suppose, have always been pretty much this bad, but the writing quality and intelligence in the mainstream media was not.

                      "Journalism" today reads like an assignment written by a near-illiterate freshman engineering student in the compulsory English class, by the standards of the mid-90s. At best.

                      And I think the reason is obvious - modern advertising technology proved that decent writing adds essentially zero value and forced everybody to accept it.

                      So the people with liberal arts degrees are not wrong to hate techies. But once, even techies wrote better.

                      We used to live in a world where elites guessed at what ordinary people wanted, and once the data-driven creed took over, it turned out they were mostly wrong. But optimization taken too far is evil.

                      [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Pearl

                      • MichaelCollins 2 years ago
                        > “The media” is mostly just a bunch of 20-40 year olds with liberal arts bachelors degrees, trying to make ends meet and feed their families.

                        Sounds like the "Yuppie Nuremberg Defense" from Thank You For Smoking, in which a tobacco lobbyist excuses himself by saying he has a mortgage to pay.

                        • MrPatan 2 years ago
                          > “The media” is mostly just a bunch of 20-40 year olds with liberal arts bachelors degrees, trying to make ends meet and feed their families.

                          It's even worse. 50 years ago that's still what they were, but they had the "power" of defining reality. Politicians, millionaires, and other actually powerful people had to suck up to them or with the narrative-shapers against them they would have real problems.

                          But that reality is breaking (if not totally broken). Social media, feed algorythms, recomendation engines, etc, are taking those narrative-shaping powers from them. So they get less respect.

                        • hn_throwaway_99 2 years ago
                          I think this is an odd take, given that it was the WSJ that broke the Theranos story and CoinDesk that broke the FTX story.

                          Yes, true investigative reporting is rare (and expensive), but good work is still being done.

                          For the media at large, given the volume of stuff you can read, much of it is plain "story-telling" or "narratives", and I do think the media is more likely to go with things that fit the narrative of the day than look at things with a critical eye.

                          With Theranos, the media absolutely wanted to highlight a "female Steve Jobs", and Holmes used that to her advantage. Similarly, with SBF, given all the smarmy characters in crypto, he fit the narrative of "the good guy", "the next JP Morgan" coming to save the financial system for good.

                          • BoardsOfCanada 2 years ago
                            > Yes, true investigative reporting is rare (and expensive), but good work is still being done.

                            Still, it's weird to have to read about this at poker.org first instead of any "respected" news source.

                          • HWR_14 2 years ago
                            At least with Theranos, the was the media excuse of "new technologist isn't sharing the secrets of her device yet, but she showed enough to get big-names as investors and #37 on the Fortune list with as much revenue as MSFT is signed on to the tech to make it seem believable".

                            With Enron, they were very very good at obfuscating their scam. But it was the WSJ affiliate that was the first mover on Enron being fishy. A major short seller saw that article and shorted the stock, then turned a tip into another reporter. That reporter then pretty much started its downfall. It was, possibly, the best example of the media being the guardians against a scam since the internet started.

                            • MichaelCollins 2 years ago
                              Enron was unlike Theranos, in that Enron was originally a legitimate company while Theranos was a scam from the beginning. Enron was a company that sold natural gas, a real product, that became a scam as they used increasingly dodgy accounting practices to push their stock ever higher. Theranos on the other hand never had a real product, and before Theranos even started Holmes was informed by experts (particularly Phyllis Gardner) that it would never work.

                              In the early days of Enron, an investigative journalist would have found a real gas trading company. But at no point in the history of Theranos would an investigative journalist worth their salt have found a real company.

                            • bmitc 2 years ago
                              It’s not just the media. The investors are the primary ones to blame here, in my opinion. They literally gave hundreds of millions a of dollars to a company with a compliance officer with a history of financial fraud and scams and then touted the CEO as a boy wonder. The fact that they invested lended a lot of credence, for better or worse, to FTX.
                              • opportune 2 years ago
                                What is the incremental revenue or profit per hour worked for a serious hard hitting investigative piece, vs other crap that is much cheaper to make (like regurgitating press releases)?

                                Not to mention the fact that a lot of investigative leads likely either don’t pan out, are not newsworthy, or ruffle feathers better left unruffled (news media relies on connections and access for leads on stories, and their customers are advertisers, ie large corporations).

                                There is not much of a market for investigative journalism. IMO tort law or class-action suits could fill that niche too if the incentives were more aligned (gotta be a lawyer to make anything off a class action) and the playing field were more even - arbitration clause says what?

                                So lacking an incentive for either of those the next best thing is short selling, which also sucks because it’s time-based, risky, requires capital, and isn’t relevant when something doesn’t have a direct link to a tradable security

                                • mountainb 2 years ago
                                  Journalists who do puff profiles on business and political figures don't do any investigating. Investigative journalists who investigate on their own initiative are rare. Most just ride on the coat-tails of plaintiff lawyers, prosecutors, and public scandals as in this case. It's not really clear if newspapers suffer reputational harm from puff pieces that are later repudiated.
                                  • camgunz 2 years ago
                                    At least Matt Levine called FTX a Ponzi scheme to SBF's face [0], to which SBF had no real rebuttal (he tried to make a borrowing argument... but leveraging your Ponzi gains is also classic Ponzi).

                                    It's stunning to me that that interview didn't crash FTX by itself, and it indicates that the industry (fintech, VCs, crypto) is engaged in a huge pump and dump. It's legitimately criminal.

                                    [0]: https://archive.ph/fGLat#selection-3973.7-3973.12 (27:13)

                                    • 0cf8612b2e1e 2 years ago
                                      I think it is worth noting that Theranos went after people who investigated them. Used the enormous war chest and high profile backers to crush anyone who challenged the official narrative. How many nascent stories get killed because a broke reporter feels threatened?
                                      • MichaelCollins 2 years ago
                                        How many "journalists" wrote glowing puff pieces about Holmes and Theranos, when they could have simply written about other companies and people instead? Quite a few as I recall.
                                      • cokeandpepsi 2 years ago
                                        It's not the media's fault these people commit crimes
                                        • TacticalCoder 2 years ago
                                          It's the media's fault if they cannot be bothered to Google for two minutes that the chief lawyer at Alameda/FTX happens to be involved in a big poker scandal which... defrauded players.

                                          Especially when there were tweets as old as 2018 at the very least describing the very scam Alameda/FTX/SBF was pulling.

                                          @bitfinex'ed, a Twitter account which exposes tether for the scam it is since maybe a decade (and tether shall eventually fall), has been posting proof of all the wrongdoings. Including the ties between Alameda an Deltec (tether's bank in the Bahamas) since the very start of the scam.

                                          It's also the media's fault that they re copy/pasting everywhere that it's "leveraged trades gone wrong, sending SBF in a death spiral".

                                          That's not the story at all yet that's what these scummy media are publishing.

                                          The story is that the goal was, from day one, to not only defraud people/investors but also to do a regulatory capture of the crypto exchanges market by greasing politicians and working hand in hand with officials and ex- officials who all knew each other.

                                          If there were still investigative journalists around, there's material for quite a story.

                                          But it's better to present SBF as an altruistic woke kid who, sadly, was sent into a death spiral after a few bad leveraged trades.

                                        • eternalban 2 years ago
                                          > slipped under the radar

                                          No, sorry, that is their job description. But since we're using radar as analogy, let me introduce to your new friend, IFF (Identify, Friend or Foe).

                                          • r00fus 2 years ago
                                            I think the radar analogy is flawed at best w/r/t the press.

                                            Part of the problem is that the press is owned/regulated by the people in the very institutions that fund the scammers.

                                          • WeylandYutani 2 years ago
                                            You need to have massive balls to go after billionaires and their army of lawyers.

                                            And the public doesn't help with their hero worship of tech douchebags.

                                            • xhkkffbf 2 years ago
                                              People on this site routinely post links to evade paywalls. They celebrate ad blockers. But now many of the same people are wondering why "the media" didn't stop a tech fraud? You get what you pay for.
                                            • zozbot234 2 years ago
                                              Wait, wasn't the NYT supposed to take a very critical look at everything in "tech", as a matter of editorial policy? Why were they giving such a glowing (no pun intended!) endorsement of crypto, of all things? Something doesn't add up here.
                                              • burkaman 2 years ago
                                                Did you read it? I would not call it glowing at all, it seems pretty matter of fact and actually somewhat negative if you read between the lines. Opening with an anecdote about some scripted banter with Anthony Scaramucci (not a name that NYT readers have any good associations with), and then:

                                                > The laughter has faded. Over the last few days, the collapse of a so-called stablecoin called TerraUSD has sent the crypto market into meltdown, accelerating a dramatic sell-off that tanked the price of Bitcoin and Ether, the two most valuable cryptocurrencies. At Baha Mar, Mr. Bankman-Fried was throwing a giant party for the industry; this past week, he was attempting to restore calm, tweeting long threads about the state of the market.

                                                Then discussing how his awkward, unkempt appearance is actually calculated and intentional. And look at the final paragraph:

                                                > Outside, the convention center was emptying, as hundreds of crypto enthusiasts headed for the airport. It was the calm before the coming meltdown. To leave the resort, guests had to walk through the Baha Mar casino, the largest in the Caribbean, a brightly lit hall of flashing slot machines.

                                                The whole thing is framed around this guy hanging out with celebrities and lobbying government officials while his market crashes. Reading it for the first time 6 months after it was written, I think it holds up as an accurate profile with a bit of foreshadowing of what was to come.

                                                • settrans 2 years ago
                                                  In case you're not being facetious, Sam was the single second largest donor to the Democratic Party.
                                                  • HWR_14 2 years ago
                                                    He donated in the primaries. He told the democrats he would donate again in the general, but didn't. Like a month ago there was articles like "Where is the $100MM Sam promised the Democrats, he's donated nothing in the general"
                                                    • Marazan 2 years ago
                                                      To Democratic Primary races. To get the pro-crypto candidate over.
                                                      • 2 years ago
                                                        • 2 years ago
                                                        • jmull 2 years ago
                                                          ...NYT...Why were they giving such a glowing (no pun intended!) endorsement of crypto

                                                          I don't think they did.

                                                          To check my memory, I clicked on to the "Cryptocurrency" keyword to see the crypto-related stories going back. It's mostly reporting news (which is mainly bad) and skepticism.

                                                          Is the next crypto narrative is going to be "why didn't the media save us?" I guess it makes about as much sense as all the previous crypto narratives.

                                                          • _jal 2 years ago
                                                            "The lamestream media, whom I never listen to, failed to warn me!"

                                                            Anyone else remember those folks who suddenly realized climate change was actually happening and immediately started whining about how the media failed to tell them?

                                                            People failing to think critically about how media works while simultaneously whining about how the media works will never cease to amuse me. It is almost exactly like taking a bus to the end of the line and then yelling at the driver for taking you there.

                                                          • jasonwatkinspdx 2 years ago
                                                            SBF likely hired a PR firm that pitched the story to a writer they're friendly with.
                                                            • doorman2 2 years ago
                                                              Crypto doesn't pose an existential threat to the NYT business model like social media and search do. I.e. The NYT is in the advertising business. Google, Facebook, et al are direct competitors.
                                                              • HWR_14 2 years ago
                                                                > The NYT is in the advertising business. Google, Facebook, et al are direct competitors.

                                                                The NYT is in the "providing content to lure people to advertisers" business. They don't sell ads to third parties. They could be very symbiotic with Google, for example. If Google was searching their content, bringing readers in, and supplying ads. But, instead, Google scrapes their content and helps people never visit their site at all.

                                                              • twright 2 years ago
                                                                I think crypto aligned itself more with finance in the last year or two. E.g. Super Bowl ads, big bank partnerships and that may influence how a company is covered. The culmination of this was Roose’s “Latecomer’s Guide to Crypto” which was generally uncritical.
                                                                • headsoup 2 years ago
                                                                  The dollars add up, every time.
                                                                  • hef19898 2 years ago
                                                                    Not for Wirecard, or FTX.
                                                                  • rideontime 2 years ago
                                                                    Yeah, a lot of us have questions that Kevin Roose won't answer.
                                                                    • MichaelCollins 2 years ago
                                                                      Perhaps that default-critical stance is just how they thought to solicit "donations" from the industry.
                                                                    • xorcist 2 years ago
                                                                      VCs buys anything they think they can unload on PE, funds, or even retail later down the line.

                                                                      It's not specific to crypto. Theranos was a similar fraud, and so was WeWork.

                                                                      They can make a public spiel about how they were deceived as long as they want, but to anyone following them at the time it was obvious they were going in with their eyes open. Whether the product works or not is simply not their top priority when making an investment.

                                                                      edit: I'd like to point out to the people who clearly disagree with the above that the dude running this scheme from Bahamas was openly taking drugs and playing videogames in meetings with investors. It's even mentioned in the VC material. Yet they did shower him with money. Please do tell what kind of due diligence could possibly miss the warning flags that maybe this company wasn't completely honest?

                                                                      • Mistletoe 2 years ago
                                                                        The funny thing is Michael Lewis (Moneyball, Flash Boys, The Big Short) has been following Sam around for the last six months. He just got an incredible ending to his book.
                                                                        • bmitc 2 years ago
                                                                          Is there more to this? As in, he was actually in the Bahamas documenting things and Sam? This was not a red flag to anyone at FTX or involved with FTX?
                                                                          • Mistletoe 2 years ago
                                                                            No he was writing a book about SBF before all this went down. Probably about how awesome he was. Although you could be right and I’m sure he had some hunches it was all a mess after digging deeper. Then he got an incredible M. Night Shyamalan twist at the end.

                                                                            SBF and crew were probably basking in their own genius too much to realize how most Michael Lewis books end up. They probably thought they were more Moneyball than The Big Short.

                                                                          • nytesky 2 years ago
                                                                            Was Moneyball Jonah Hills first big role? Now he will take a star turn as Michael Lewis’s SBF.
                                                                            • mikeyouse 2 years ago
                                                                              Superbad did like 50% more at the box office than Moneyball.
                                                                          • user3939382 2 years ago
                                                                            To say this as gently as I can, do you really think people like Blair or the Clintons are the good guys?

                                                                            HSBC teaches us that the US govt happily approves of financial crime as long as it's large and they get their cut: https://www.investopedia.com/stock-analysis/2013/investing-n...

                                                                            Madoff's mistake was probably not sharing with the right people, and that the optics were a bridge too far.

                                                                            • lzooz 2 years ago
                                                                              Sam Bankman-Fried donated $40M to the Democratic Party, making him the second-biggest donor of the party.
                                                                              • pjc50 2 years ago
                                                                                Like most political donors, he gave to both sides. https://www.forbes.com/sites/zacheverson/2022/11/11/checks--...

                                                                                " The $69 million spent by Bankman-Fried and his deputies on the 2022 midterms likely would’ve done little to plug FTX’s reported financial hole, but it couldn’t have hurt. Bankman-Fried told Forbes last month that “in the end, I care about policy more than politics,” adding that “my giving has been bipartisan, and my goal is to help support great policy makers.”

                                                                                    Bankman-Fried has supported Republicans during this cycle, primarily through his $2 million contribution to the blockchain and cryptocurrency-focused GMI super PAC. But the bulk of his giving, including $27 million to the Protect Our Future super PAC and $6 million to the House Majority super PAC, has gone to support Democrats. Bankman-Fried told Forbes last month that “much of this was for primaries, rather than D vs R general elections” ($33 million of his contributions were made during the first four months of 2022.) "
                                                                                • hunterb123 2 years ago
                                                                                  $67 million (D) vs $2 million (R) is significant. It also depends who it was given to.
                                                                                  • yonaguska 2 years ago
                                                                                    I'd be interested to know exactly which primaries he donated to. The two sides are not Democrat/Republican, it should be finally obvious to everyone else after these midterms that the sides are actually Trump Republicans vs Democrats+GOP.
                                                                                  • 2 years ago
                                                                                    • jimcavel888 2 years ago
                                                                                    • winternett 2 years ago
                                                                                      Jack from Twitter pumped crypto and NFTs heavily as well. It was likely a coordinate plot that will never result in punishment, but regardless, the money is gone. Many were warned that it was fraudulent early though... A whole lot of people lost their money based on pure willful ignorance, and that can't be given a pass either.
                                                                                      • Balgair 2 years ago
                                                                                        Looking on the bright side:

                                                                                        This whole crypto failure is going to act as a bit of an 'innoculant' for any relaxation of financial laws. If anything, it should lightly strengthen support for further financial regulation of Wall Street and the like. All responses to any loosening up of the banks can reasonably be countered with 'Yeah, but look at what happened with Crypto.' So I guess that's at least something.

                                                                                        • georgeecollins 2 years ago
                                                                                          The question is, did the VCs get tokens along with their investments? They may have already made money from selling them before the collapse while giving a sheen of respectability to FTX. That would make sense because then they wouldn't need to do any diligence.
                                                                                          • indymike 2 years ago
                                                                                            > Crypto turned into a haven for replaying every form of financial fraud ever invented on an epic speedrun against retail "investors"

                                                                                            Best description of all that is wrong with crypto. It's a human problem, not a tech problem.

                                                                                            • jgalt212 2 years ago
                                                                                              Clinton and Blair are old. I'm starting to think this is no different from a scammer extracting a credit card number over the phone from your formerly astute great aunt.
                                                                                              • that_guy_iain 2 years ago
                                                                                                > Crypto turned into a haven for replaying every form of financial fraud ever invented on an epic speedrun against retail "investors", and a whole lot of powerful people and institutions have dirty hands. The idea all of this could be adequately explained by stupidity rather than malice strains credulity.

                                                                                                This was clear years ago. That is why I've been avoiding crypto like the plague.

                                                                                                • ekianjo 2 years ago
                                                                                                  > a "do-gooder" by the NYT.

                                                                                                  sbf was giving tons of cash to the democratic party so NYT cant find anything bad to say about him

                                                                                                  • COGlory 2 years ago
                                                                                                    I'll have you know he donated to both sides: He also gave $5,800 to 6 different left-leaning Republicans.

                                                                                                    https://www.forbes.com/sites/michelatindera/2021/10/21/the-w...

                                                                                                    • TacticalCoder 2 years ago
                                                                                                      that's not much compared to the $40 millions he gave to the democrats...
                                                                                                    • astrange 2 years ago
                                                                                                      The NYT is the most "bothsides" political media you'll find; any political story will be reported as "why are the Democrats doing a bad job?".

                                                                                                      This is the basis of NYT Pitchbot.

                                                                                                      • ekianjo 2 years ago
                                                                                                        > The NYT is the most "bothsides" political media you'll find;

                                                                                                        Who does believe that for more than 1 second?

                                                                                                      • kibwen 2 years ago
                                                                                                        Did you even bother to read the article? Because the answer for everyone here seems to be "no", have a read that doesn't require a click:

                                                                                                        A growing force in political fund-raising, he has a super PAC that recently gave more than $10 million to a Democratic congressional candidate who supports some of his philanthropic priorities.

                                                                                                        In public, Mr. Bankman-Fried can sometimes seem uncomfortable, tapping his foot or twirling a fidget spinner. But the awkwardness is part of a calculated self-presentation. Over countless tweets, interviews and TV appearances, he’s positioned himself as a mad-scientist-cum-diplomat — a straight-talking brainiac willing to embrace regulation of his nascent industry and criticize its worst excesses.

                                                                                                        Now Mr. Bankman-Fried is trying to leverage his fame to set policy in Washington, at a moment when the risks of crypto trading are growing increasingly stark; he makes regular trips to the Capitol from his base in the Bahamas, meeting with regulators and testifying in Congress. If he’s successful, he could become one of the most influential figures in the new era of technological experimentation that supporters call web3, writing the rule book for a slew of risky investment products that are increasingly reshaping the internet, finance and even the arts.

                                                                                                        But his detractors say his advocacy is driven by self-interest. His political contributions have prompted complaints that he’s distorting the competitive landscape to advance his own agenda. And the charm offensive in Washington has alarmed consumer advocates who argue that FTX is exacerbating the volatility in crypto markets and putting investors at risk.

                                                                                                        FTX serves as a portal to the crypto world. With the click of a button, a curious investor can turn dollars into Bitcoin, Dogecoin or Ether. It’s as simple as buying paper towels from Target — except that the value of a digital asset can be wiped away overnight amid the types of market gyrations that have sent cryptocurrency prices crashing over the past month. In the United States, crypto exchanges occupy a regulatory gray area: It remains unsettled whether the tokens are securities, commodities or something else entirely. Mr. Bankman-Fried has been pitching a regulatory structure with expanded authority for the Commodity Futures Trading Commission, which is smaller and less aggressive than the Securities and Exchange Commission and has traditionally been more sympathetic to the crypto industry.

                                                                                                        FTX is headquartered in the Bahamas partly because 80 percent of its $1.1 billion in global revenue stems from a trading instrument that remains illegal in the United States. On the FTX platform, investors can borrow money to make enormous bets on the future prices of cryptocurrencies, leading to potentially astronomical gains — or catastrophic losses.

                                                                                                        So not only is the article extremely up-front about the fact that SBF donated to the Democratic primaries (and as far as I can tell, none at all to the general election), it's far from "glowing" (it's a banal, if colorful, profile) and, contrary to the parent commenter's claims, nowhere does it claim that he is a "do-gooder", rather using the phrase in the context of how EA advocates think of themselves.

                                                                                                        The sheer irony of people railing against misinformation in media while willfully misinforming people on social media.

                                                                                                      • TacticalCoder 2 years ago
                                                                                                        > It's incredible that SBF was being touted by Sequoia, WEF, Fortune, chumming it up with Clinton and Blair in the Bahamas, getting meetings and kid glove treatment with the SEC, relatively glowing profile as a "do-gooder" by the NYT.

                                                                                                        That's the real story here.

                                                                                                        I transcribed a discussion between Chamath Palihapitiya and Brian Armstrong and others talking about this. Here's what he was saying about all these people who've been very blind and didn't do any due diligence:

                                                                                                        "I just want to say the second uncomfortable thing out loud which is there are a lot of venture firms in SV in this period of both not doing any work or due diligence who also took the extra step and actually created classes and teached teams how to create these tokens.

                                                                                                        And those artifacts --those video links and artifacts-- are sometimes on their website, they're still on YouTube, they're inside of Twitter, and what these folds would do when we talked about this, the game that they played was they would get a team they would create a token, they would also buy equity at a crazy valuation, the equity was locked up but the tokens were not, and then they would put them on an exchange and sell them to unsuspecting people and they would be able to dump these tokens and if you look inside that trend those were the trend of "securities" instead it was done in an unregulated way.

                                                                                                        They're going to start to look at a bunch of other tokens and token sales and you're going to end up looking at some very well known venture firms in silicon valley.

                                                                                                        That token is not the only token that's been engineered by SV firms and it is also no the only token that's going to zero that's been engineered by SV venture firms site.

                                                                                                        There's videos (still) today on some of the most well-known Venture firm sites on how to do this.

                                                                                                        They're instructing people how to do this. It's what they did.

                                                                                                        but I really also hope they figure out these other tokens as well ... ... and you will see these are unregulated securities that were sold by our brethren..."

                                                                                                        It is, to me, about much more than "cryptocurrencies are scam".

                                                                                                        Many in SV are deep into this. There are officials and ex- officials implicated too.

                                                                                                        People have been dumping worthless tokens created by the tens or hundreds on people all the while the media were presenting SBF as an altruistic trustable white knight.

                                                                                                        That's the real story here.

                                                                                                        Complete with SBF being the biggest or second biggest donor to Biden's campain for presidency though a fund which SBF's mom (a lawyer and teacher at Stanford) was running. And SBF's father, also a lawyer and teacher at Stanford, recorded explaining how he's helping FTX with charity and regulations.

                                                                                                        > Crypto turned into a haven for replaying every form of financial fraud ever invented on an epic speedrun against retail "investors", and a whole lot of powerful people and institutions have dirty hands. The idea all of this could be adequately explained by stupidity rather than malice strains credulity.

                                                                                                        Exactly. I'm glad some at least this for what it actually is.

                                                                                                        Thankfully some people warned and described the very scam SBF was pulling the day FTX launched (in 2018 ?). Before that several had already noticed Alameda Research was behind crypto market manipulation and pump and dumps of shitcoins.

                                                                                                        The signs were all out there and nobody looked.

                                                                                                        • hash07e 2 years ago
                                                                                                          • hef19898 2 years ago
                                                                                                            What anti-semtism are talking about?
                                                                                                          • bitcharmer 2 years ago
                                                                                                            Also, this is Alameda's CEO.

                                                                                                            https://youtu.be/aW6SqLXw944

                                                                                                            Un fucking believable.

                                                                                                        • svara 2 years ago
                                                                                                          > Friedberg, who served as FTX’s general counsel before taking on the company’s regulatory role, was recently described by Coingeek’s Steven Stradbrooke as being “almost comically inappropriate” for the job. The description appears apt, given Friedberg’s long history of not complying with various jurisdictions’ regulations, but rather, evading them.

                                                                                                          Can't make this up. Reads to me like, on the contrary, they couldn't have found anyone more qualified.

                                                                                                        • theCrowing 2 years ago
                                                                                                          There is a German saying: "Wo ein Trog ist kommen die Schweine." roughly translates to "Where there is a trough - the pigs will come." Rather fitting for all the crypto meltdowns in the last years.
                                                                                                          • louwrentius 2 years ago
                                                                                                            Crypto has attracted almost every type of criminal under the sun, to the detriment of 'regular' people who got conned into this stuff and is now left holding the bags.

                                                                                                            That German saying is on point and really sad.

                                                                                                            • threeseed 2 years ago
                                                                                                              > Crypto has attracted almost every type of criminal under the sun

                                                                                                              This is actually quite a profound statement.

                                                                                                              Is there actually anything in human history that can come close to rivalling this ?

                                                                                                              We have everyone from teens promoting shitcoins on TikTok, to household celebrities like Matt Damon, to white collar criminals, to arguably VCs, all the way to nation states like Iran and North Korea.

                                                                                                              • Stranger43 2 years ago
                                                                                                                Doing the wild west days America had a bunch of what was called wildcat currencies issued by private banks with dubious backing in either non existing gold reserves or over inflated property holdings.

                                                                                                                look up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildcat_banking it's kind of an interesting period in finance that got kind of forgotten as it did not exactly end well.

                                                                                                                • matt_s 2 years ago
                                                                                                                  I would give a pass to any celebrity that was paid to be in advertisements. They are paid to make an appearance and say lines convincingly.

                                                                                                                  We don't have written accounts of the tulip craze but I would imagine there were a lot of nefarious activities underway then. This is more global and the movement of money is transparent but anonymous in some ways. I think a hard part for a criminal enterprise like a drug cartel is the cash to crypto laundering that needs to happen in the amounts that it needs to. My guess is it was easier for shady banks and other crypto products to do shady things since its all just bits and bytes.

                                                                                                                  • tsukikage 2 years ago
                                                                                                                    Whenever you have a space where boundaries are not imposed and actions merely have externalities rather than consequences for the actor, malicious actors that find it difficult to act how they want elsewhere flock to this space; this makes being in that space more and more painful, and so if the space remains lawless, people who can exist elsewhere abandon it, until the space is inhabited mostly or only by malicious actors.

                                                                                                                    We see this in online communities. We see it in the real physical world. And, yes, we are seeing it play out in crypto.

                                                                                                                    An online community without restrictions or boundaries doesn't look like one's fond memories of university dorm chats over a glass of wine; it looks like 4chan or the dark web.

                                                                                                                    A country without effective governance doesn't look like the romanticised media depictions of the wild west or your favourite science fictional post-scarcity anarchy utopia; it looks like Somalia.

                                                                                                                    A financial system without regulations doesn't look like your family kitty; it looks like, well, the crypto ecosystem.

                                                                                                                    Humans can't do better unless we all start to consistently choose cooperate/cooperate in prisoner's dilemma, and one quick look at, well, any community anywhere today shows we are a long way away from that.

                                                                                                                    This is not a technical problem, and cannot be solved with a technical solution. Humans do not know how to solve it. I wish we did. Historically, the most aspirational attempts to solve this problem have been the ones with the most gruesome outcomes.

                                                                                                                    • blantonl 2 years ago
                                                                                                                      The western United States was pretty wild for a while until it was "tamed"
                                                                                                                      • WeylandYutani 2 years ago
                                                                                                                        Years back when TOR was new I stumbled on a site selling "family videos with kids" for ethereum. Soured me on crypto enough never to fall for it.
                                                                                                                      • pibechorro 2 years ago
                                                                                                                        3rd party exchanges and banks.. basically like it always has. Crytpo, aka your keys, are still fine.
                                                                                                                        • throwawaysleep 2 years ago
                                                                                                                          • 2 years ago
                                                                                                                        • TheMaskedCoder 2 years ago
                                                                                                                          Actually, this seems like a rather interesting defense of crypto. To use the metaphor, did the trough create the pigs? Or did it only draw a horde of pre-existing pigs to one place? Perhaps the amount of quasi-criminals that we are seeing in the crypto sector right now is just a sign that crypto was highly successful and not a condemnation of crypto in and of itself.
                                                                                                                          • Semaphor 2 years ago
                                                                                                                            You are half right. It obviously did not create the pigs, but the "trough" is the place for easy pickings: Crypto. Of course Crypto did not create scammers, scammers simply have an easy time scamming people there.
                                                                                                                            • ajhurliman 2 years ago
                                                                                                                              Agreed 100%, but troughs are good for other things besides feeding pigs. I hope the actually innovative, non-scam projects don't have their name tarnished too much by all the pigs.
                                                                                                                            • sebastialonso 2 years ago
                                                                                                                              Am I understanding this correctly? The very fact that the Crypto scene was filled with criminals is direct evidence that "it works"?

                                                                                                                              Is this a soft implication that the same scene should "continue" to exist as it currently is?

                                                                                                                              • wffurr 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                Successful at what, enabling criminal activity?
                                                                                                                              • 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                • thejosh 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                  Also "schadenfreude" :-).

                                                                                                                                  (pleasure derived by someone from another person's misfortune).

                                                                                                                                  • 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                    • hef19898 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                      Also a nice word, but not the same as OP bon mot.
                                                                                                                                    • peteradio 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                      Reminds me of the American phrase "What exactly were you expecting?!"
                                                                                                                                    • mrleinad 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                      Larry was right for once [1].

                                                                                                                                      [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BH5-rSxilxo

                                                                                                                                      • simongray 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                        Larry the character maybe; not Larry the real person.
                                                                                                                                        • mrleinad 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                          I'm really not sure where the line is between those two.
                                                                                                                                          • simongray 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                            The real one is promoting crypto by playing a "foolish" version of himself on camera in exchange for money.
                                                                                                                                          • snake_plissken 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                            There is no difference tho? The show is about him playing himself.
                                                                                                                                        • new2this 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                          Clickbait title. Tether is only vaguely mentioned and there is nothing related to Tether operations- only to an employee at Tether.

                                                                                                                                          While this article covers an interesting topic, the title is clearly an attempt to bandwagon on the "Tether is next" narrative while contributing nothing substantial to the conversation

                                                                                                                                          • shkkmo 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                            Tether is pretty specifically, if briefly mentioned. What is vague is the description of what provable role Stuart Hoegner had with UB's lawbreaking.
                                                                                                                                            • 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                            • 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                              • CPLX 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                > The second near-failure of UB occurred when the site was riddled by extensive credit-card fraud during its first year or so of operations. That led parent company ieLogic to develop an antifraud software suite called ieSnare that was so effective that the company was able to license it to other online concerns.

                                                                                                                                                That’s a pretty interesting little side story.

                                                                                                                                                • RL_Quine 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                  Feels sort of nonsensical honestly. Credit card anti fraud is entirely reactionary, there’s no magic bullet, you’re just papering over the cracks of an absolutely broken payment system. Every service will see different fraud, it will always be changing, there’s no one fits all solution. Very frequently the “rules” of the systems aren’t solid and everybody trying to exploit them knows that.
                                                                                                                                              • bedhead 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                As if crypto wasn’t useless enough, it’s always at the center of endless scams. What’s it gonna take for people to walk away from this poison?
                                                                                                                                                • once_inc 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                  "Crypto" is useless. Bitcoin isn't. Maximalists have been warning against this stuff happening for nearly a year now. Ever since Luna collapsed, those voices grew louder, but the yield-farming degenerates chose not to listen.
                                                                                                                                                  • SketchySeaBeast 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                    > "Crypto" is useless. Bitcoin isn't.

                                                                                                                                                    What unique properties does Bitcoin have that makes it useful that other cryptocurrencies don't, beside first mover advantage?

                                                                                                                                                    • once_inc 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                      Bitcoin is provably the only decentralized system that has permissionless, borderless, digital scarcity. Other cryptocurrencies are less secure (the many direct forks, such as Bitcoin Cash and the like), less decentralized (Solana, BNB), less permissionless (any system that can be halted by its operators) or less scarce (Ethereum's emission schedule can be changed by a single organisation).

                                                                                                                                                      Bitcoin's value (not in terms of money, but in terms of usefullness) is an emergent property of the combination of proof of work, the difficulty adjustment, and its peer-to-peer nature. Other cryptocurrencies suffer because their founders have changed one or more of those properties in an attempt to "fix bitcoin" (bigger blocks! faster blocks! more blocks!), but that cripples the resulting emergent value.

                                                                                                                                                      If Bitcoin is directly cloned as Coinbit, and miners flock to it, and it achieves a greater total hash rate than Bitcoin, then its value supersedes Bitcoin's. Bitcoin's first mover advantage makes this unlikely (though non-zero).

                                                                                                                                                      • xorcist 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                        Not sure if the question is meant seriously but there are important differences between a serious attempt of private currency and any one of the "less serious":

                                                                                                                                                        Bitcoin has a real multi stakeholder maintainership, where no single party can hard fork the currency or change the rules in any important way from the ones the users signed up for. This is what people mean when they say hard forks should be close to impossible to pull off. The only exceptions are where there is absolute consensus, such as pure security issues.

                                                                                                                                                        Closely related to the above, the issuance model is clearly known to everyone in advance and will not change. The issuance is not the same thing as the consensus rules. That helps force stakeholders to play fair.

                                                                                                                                                        There is no founder or foreground representative that has an undue influence in development. Even the core developers will have to convince everyone that their changes are sound and will not change the rules of anyone's investment, and more often than not, ends up with them dropped if consensus can not be reached.

                                                                                                                                                        Again related to the above, there was no pre-mine. Since there was no central party, no one owned any coins before the public blockchain started. So no one could sell or promise any future winnings. There's this whole founding myth to build culture on, and npt everything may be true, but what's clear is that an effort was made to prove there was no pre-mine (someone included today's paper in the genesis block, before which per the protocol no coins can exist).

                                                                                                                                                        The first mover advantage does not enter this. You could start a new serious attempt at a currency along the same lines as above, but very few bother when you are competing with outright scams. Personally I believe we have to wait some time to shake out the scammers before we can see any serious attempts at competing.

                                                                                                                                                        • MichaelCollins 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                          I'm guessing the logic is something along the lines of "all crypto is crap... except for the crypto I have of course."
                                                                                                                                                        • nuclx 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                          Privacy coins aren't. The problem with Bitcoin is, that it CAN be regulated to death.
                                                                                                                                                          • once_inc 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                            And privacy coins come with the appended issue that software issues could hide an inflation bug, which isn't provable at that moment. Is Bitcoin anonymous? Nope, but with some diligence, you can be quite protected.
                                                                                                                                                        • hef19898 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                          A new poison? Crypto is the latest promise of fast, easy money. There will be new ones.
                                                                                                                                                        • arisAlexis 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                          This has nothing to do with Tether the author added it jut as a sauce, hilarious
                                                                                                                                                          • JustLurking2022 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                            Tether has similarly been caught in the past using the funds behind their supposedly "fully backed" tokens for highly speculative investment. So far it's just such a big scam that no one has been able to create a large enough run to topple it... so far.
                                                                                                                                                            • arisAlexis 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                              Not really but it’s a long discussion. In any case in this sense the author coul also throw other kinds of conspiracies unrelated. True journalism ! Add your sauce
                                                                                                                                                          • shkkmo 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                            > Stuart Hoegner, another former UB lawyer, holds a similar regulatory-compliance post with rival crypto firm Tether

                                                                                                                                                            Both Tether and FTX hired former white collar criminals from the same company to head their regulator compliance.

                                                                                                                                                            • arisAlexis 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                              You justify this title because of some other company hired an unrelated lawyer that worked on a case with another lawyer 15 years ago? Seriously now lol
                                                                                                                                                              • jjulius 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                >You justify this title... Seriously now lol

                                                                                                                                                                What's with the snark? The title itself is technically accurate. That is "a link". There's nothing to justify. What you want to do is debate the strength of that link. That's fine, but it does nothing to change the accuracy of the title. A connection is a connection, like it or not.

                                                                                                                                                          • stephc_int13 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                            I wonder if there are cases of large scams where the perpetrators are smart enough to avoid being caught.

                                                                                                                                                            Not all criminals end-up behind bars.

                                                                                                                                                            I suspect that some scams can go unnoticed for long enough.

                                                                                                                                                            I also suspect that scam opportunities are exploding.

                                                                                                                                                            • linuxftw 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                              > perpetrators are smart enough to avoid being caught.

                                                                                                                                                              IMO, many startups are scams on some level. VC A funds company X. VC A also funds company Y. Company Y 'decides' to use company X's hot new product and has a lofty enterprise license. This happens a few more times. Company X now has very large revenues, VC's friends at big-nation-bank decide it's time to IPO and cash out.

                                                                                                                                                              • joecasson 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                I wish a VC's recommendation or direction was all it took to get a deal done. Getting a "lofty Enterprise license" through procurement is so much harder than you are stating. They can make an introduction, sure, but very few VCs are micromanaging to the point of determining a portfolio company's tech stack.

                                                                                                                                                                Source: a decade of VC funded Enterprise saas company selling experience

                                                                                                                                                                • bombcar 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                  However there have been cases of a product being used internally because a board member recommended it. I’ve seen small versions of it myself.
                                                                                                                                                                  • linuxftw 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                    My source: Worked for a startup hosting company, our biggest clients were backed by the same VC's as us.
                                                                                                                                                                • xiphias2 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                  It's not that they are smart.

                                                                                                                                                                  It seems more to me like governments don't want to take financial crimes (specifically fiditiary duty) seriously, as it would make precedent for bankers who do the same crimes, just less visibly (bailouts).

                                                                                                                                                                  • JofArnold 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                    More likely it's a question of resource. I expect there's more crimes than people available to prosecute.
                                                                                                                                                                  • sbarre 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                    Any kind of electronic gambling setup is amenable to insider scams.

                                                                                                                                                                    Keep it low-key, don't get greedy, and you can probably milk it forever.

                                                                                                                                                                    • michael1999 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                      Lots of people building real businesses do shady things on the way up. John Hempton wrote up a great example of this about a failed short play against Steve Madden Shoes[0]. Steve Madden may have been a fibber, but he made shoes people wanted to buy. The value of the shoes was larger than the fakery.

                                                                                                                                                                      But when you are selling financial services, this kind of fakery almost always blows up because the accounting is the product. And if the accounts are fake, the thing is fake. Fake accounts always leave a hole that can only grow with each cycle of fraud. Dan Davies wrote a great book titled "Lying for Money" on the whole sorry process[1]. Galbraith called it the "bezzle".

                                                                                                                                                                      [0] - http://brontecapital.blogspot.com/2011/05/steve-madden-count... [1] - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/38605195-lying-for-money

                                                                                                                                                                      • michael1999 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                        Lol. Just discovered that Munger coined febezzle to describe the "wealth effect" a boom/bubble produces. That gap between value created and quoted market cap can grow very large even without manifestly criminal activity. This is effectively a "bezzle", and likewise, will only grow until it explodes. Which is why the longer a bubble runs, the more painful it is when it pops.

                                                                                                                                                                        http://mungerisms.blogspot.com/2009/09/philanthropy-round-ta...

                                                                                                                                                                      • Gasp0de 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                        Tether is one of them, I suppose. No one has been caught (yet).
                                                                                                                                                                        • datavirtue 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                          Sure. Look into any dictator that was installed by the CIA. Emboldened by their power and shady alliance with the US, they usually go on a financial crime spree--stealing billions.
                                                                                                                                                                        • wly_cdgr 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                          Disgusting. SBF and this Friedman guy need to be literally physically flogged to a sobbing mess in the public square and then put into the ring for eight rounds with Mike Tyson. Better than they deserve. Absolutely vile. It is bad enough to cheat as a player/trader but to be responsible for the integrity of the platform and act like these guys is beyond the fucking pale
                                                                                                                                                                          • vba616 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                            Friedman or Friedberg? When calling for violent reprisals against people with common names, you should at least make sure it's the right one.
                                                                                                                                                                            • wly_cdgr 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                              You are right. Friedberg.

                                                                                                                                                                              But, what I am calling for is not a lawless reprisal but something a little closer to appropriate punishment than either is likely to get. Punishment that many people in countries with much more history culture and civilization than ours, like China, would agree is gentle and mild for these kind of crimes. In China someone like SBF would likely just be executed, and yes, this seems on the harsh side of reasonable and deserved - but only just.

                                                                                                                                                                              • 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                          • mberning 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                            It’s amazing to me that enough people still believe in the crypto scam to keep pumping BTC above $15k. I guess they are still managing to mint fools at a fast enough pace to keep the price up.
                                                                                                                                                                            • flanked-evergl 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                              https://www.ft.com/content/428c7800-c72d-4c59-9940-4376fea6e...

                                                                                                                                                                              > Sam Bankman-Fried stormed on to the US political scene with multimillion-dollar donations that led lawmakers, particularly Democrats, to believe he was ushering in the next generation of donors. But in a matter of days, his business empire collapsed into bankruptcy and the prospect of millions more in donations evaporated.

                                                                                                                                                                              https://fortune.com/2022/11/10/sam-bankman-fried-ftx-joe-bid... (https://archive.ph/BBpQN#selection-417.0-424.0)

                                                                                                                                                                              > The 30-year-old Bankman-Fried has been a major force in Democratic politics, ranking as the party’s second-biggest individual donor in the 2021–2022 election cycle, according to Open Secrets, with donations totaling $39.8 million. That ranks only behind George Soros (about $128 million) but ahead of many other big names, including Michael Bloomberg ($28.3 million). What’s more, he had promised to spend far more on Democrats moving forward, predicting in May that he’d fund “north of $100 million” and had a “soft ceiling” of $1 billion for the 2024 elections.

                                                                                                                                                                              • bamboozled 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                Sorry, why is this comment relevant to the parent?

                                                                                                                                                                                Because he donated money to Democrats it makes people still want to invest in cryptos, is that the message?

                                                                                                                                                                                • andybp85 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                  it's that money talks, especially to people who don't understand technology enough to spot obvious bullshit. which of course isn't a justification for anything other than why the price of bitcoin is relatively impervious to logical analysis.
                                                                                                                                                                                  • flanked-evergl 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                    Don't blame crypto for a fraudulent organization that was more politically connected than almost any other organization.

                                                                                                                                                                                    If you want to complain about BTC, complain about BTC. FTX was not BTC.

                                                                                                                                                                                • scrlk 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                  It's likely that market makers are holding the ~$15k floor to prevent a liquidation cascade.
                                                                                                                                                                                  • ahtihn 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                    Market makers aren't in the business of keeping prices up.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Market participants that do this aren't market makers anymore.

                                                                                                                                                                                    • acdha 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                      Tether appears to have been doing this for years. At some point they’re going to have a real audit and that’s likely to be very interesting.
                                                                                                                                                                                  • Gasp0de 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                    It's not Bitcoin that is the scam, it is companies run by criminals to steal peoples money.
                                                                                                                                                                                    • candiodari 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                      Because there are too many people that are in the situation that state actors steal from them more than these scams do.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Anyone doing international money transfers. Hell, that included intra-EU money transfers not 5 years ago.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Anyone in a bunch of countries. Lebanon being the most recent addition. Venezuela, Columbia, Turkey, Russia, Greece (sort-of-not-quite-anymore) ...

                                                                                                                                                                                      Anyone in legal but unfairly treated business/professions. Situations vary from country to country. From sex work, even website admins, to "the unbanked", who can expect the authorities to impound their money at the drop of a hat.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Anyone who wants to do large cash transactions safely without using a bank. And that DOES NOT mean drugs. Reality: you do this because you're afraid bank transactions can be reversed, which is possible in a bunch of places. Large, in the EU, has now become smaller than the cost of a used car.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Recently, if your transaction involves anyone on social security, your or their bank transactions may be monitored very closely by non-judicial institutions. If this is unwanted (and I guarantee it'll be unwanted) that will means you either use cash or crypto, depending on the amount. Although a lot of people in this segment haven't really discovered crypto yet.

                                                                                                                                                                                      • candiddevmike 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                        Tether keeps BTC above 15k IMO. They keep printing more anytime it starts to dive. Will tether survive the bank runs?
                                                                                                                                                                                        • d3nj4l 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                          I've seen a lot of people say this (and I'm sure you're all correct!) but I never understod the link between BTC and Tether. Multiple attempts to explain it have gone over my head. Am I just stupid?
                                                                                                                                                                                          • once_inc 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                            Consider it such: there is a company that wants bitcoin to stay above 15k. Every time the order books show a significant decline below 15k, that company issues new tokens that are treated as dollars by exchanges in order to buy bitcoin.

                                                                                                                                                                                            This stays very much viable. Right up to the point that it isn't. Then, people will wonder what is backing those tokens, and if they want to risk the event that they aren't worth their advertised value. Then, a liquidation crunch happens and the company collapses in onto itself.

                                                                                                                                                                                            • aliqot 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                              bitfinex.
                                                                                                                                                                                            • paulpauper 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                              people said this about 20k too. nothing can prop this up. same pattern of dropping 2-4k in a week.
                                                                                                                                                                                            • rxyz 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                              BTC has survived a lot of "crypto scams" though
                                                                                                                                                                                              • xorcist 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                Wouldn't we expect to see BTC hold or even gain when everyone is trying to exit their "crypto" positions?

                                                                                                                                                                                                After all, BTC is the reserve currency of all these crypto scams, as you call them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                • rglover 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                  No, because the USD market price is psychological, just like the stock market [1].

                                                                                                                                                                                                  And no, BTC is not the reserve currency; Ethereum is. Nearly all of these "crypto tokens" are just ERC-20 contracts that run as contracts on the Ethereum network. They're not even cryptocurrencies, just contracts with sets of rules that mimic the properties of a currency.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/mr-market.asp

                                                                                                                                                                                                • louwrentius 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                  I don't think there are enough people believing in crypto or specifically BTC. I believe that it's all insider trading, and fraud that keeps the price above $0.
                                                                                                                                                                                                  • max51 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Would it be less a scam for you if they did a 1-to-1000 split and 1BTC was 15$?!

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Using the sticker price to decide if a crypto/stock is a scam or not a very good idea.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    • stephc_int13 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                      A very large pool of people have skin in the BTC game, some of them are billionaires with market manipulation power, like the Winklevoss twins.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • k__ 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                      What's collapsing again and again are the companies that try to force TradFi ideas onto the DeFi ecosystem.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      So, in terms of "crypto scam," there's nothing to see here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • maeln 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Every collapse has been self made. I don t see how the institution have anything to do with that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                        • k__ 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Sorry. With institutions, I meant companies like FTX.
                                                                                                                                                                                                        • JustLurking2022 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Except those are the same companies bringing in all the buyers of crypto that prop up the price. Without scammers, the price drops like a rock.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          • flanked-evergl 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                            [deleted]
                                                                                                                                                                                                            • maeln 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                              > He had vowed to give up to $1bn to political candidates linked to causes he supported, a pledge from which he later backed away.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              I can too promise the moon and never deliver.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          • paulpauper 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                            It's a dead cat bounce. It fell 20% in a week, so a tiny bounce is expected. It will be faded soon enough. (already is). Probably 12k soon.
                                                                                                                                                                                                            • tootie 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                              Is everyone fleeing exchanges and just buying classic BTC and Eth?
                                                                                                                                                                                                              • 2sk21 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                How does one buy Bitcoin or Ethereum outside of exchanges?
                                                                                                                                                                                                              • mozman 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Why even use an exchange?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                • bombcar 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Because people want to speculate and transaction fees are high outside exchanges.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • tootie 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Why buy crypto at all? Irrational behavior.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                • HebericNewt 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If someone offered you 1BTC for $10k right now you would bite their hand off. At $14k it would be still some of the easiest money you've made in your life.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Even if you have the most cynical opinion of cryptocurrency, you must admit it's alive and well. It is as long as there are enough people who believe that it is - and your honest answer to the above would reveal that you know that to still be very true.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Kudos 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If someone offered me 1BTC for $10k right now, I would assume I'm being targeted or scammed somehow, since crypto is rife with grifters and fraud.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • mberning 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sure, I’m not stupid. I would turn around and sell it to some other fool. And thats the problem. There is honestly no price I could buy it at where I would be willing to hold.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • DebtDeflation 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        https://i.imgur.com/fsCmqVh.png

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I just don't understand all of the "BTC will never fall below <some level not far from the current price>" thinking.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • herendin 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          >There is honestly no price I could buy it at where I would be willing to hold.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Really no price? Even given the opportunity to buy at $10, you still wouldn't hold?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • ethagknight 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          And it's the same argument as Santa Claus in the movie The Elf. So long as enough people stand in Central Park singing the same song, all is well, just be sure to leave before the party is over, the Clausometer goes to 0, and the police horses trample you.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • throwawaysleep 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Oh absolutely. Had I known the absurdity of crypto would still have been going on this long, I would have set up a bunch of rug pulls and run away with the money.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Interrst rate hikes kill zombie companies. Scams put dumb people under the lash of their betters.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • mindslight 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Scams put dumb people under the lash of their betters

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Continuing this line of thought, isn't the next level of "betters" the people who would readily employ violence to get retribution on those who scammed them? Or even those who would just employ violence to take what they want in general?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I can understand the law of the jungle as-it-currently-is point that boils down to "lol normie rubes fell for advertising", but extrapolating that out into an overarching moral judgement makes no sense unless you're also repudiating the specialization of labor that has led to most of our current prosperity.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • LastTrain 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It's all scams and frauds and you are upset... because you weren't in on it?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • Bud 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • cheri9 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              [dead]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • chaosbolt 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • loceng 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Is there truth to the U.S. sending money to Ukraine -> Ukraine funding FTX -> FTX being 2nd largest donor to Democratic party in the U.S.?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Timeline:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  - April 25, 2019: Biden announces his presidential campaign.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  - 13 days later, Sam Bankman-Fried, son of Barbara Fried (co-founder of political fundraising organizations), launched FTX crypto exchange.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  - The exchange is an overnight success. Sam Bankman-Fried (SBM) becomes biggest donor to Biden.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  - Most of the FTX team is reported to have flown to Hong Kong now, so China, the CCP is their safe haven?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • teh64 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Here is an actual source: https://cointelegraph.com/news/ukrainian-government-launches...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Quote: “Aid For Ukraine shows how the global crypto community and the traditional financial system can work together,” said Solana Labs co-founder Anatoly Yakovenko. “Crypto donations to the DAO are stored and governed on-chain, then transferred to FTX, a centralized exchange, to be sold for fiat USD sent via SWIFT to the Ukrainian government.”

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    So basically people in the US (not the US government) sent money to Ukraine using FTX as an exchange to fiat (lol). Seems the whole thing is more like a PR thing than anything else.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • loceng 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      How can we know who sent it though? You can't state the truth as one way or another, at least not yet.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • mminer237 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        We certainly don't have any evidence for the extraordinary claim that the divided government is embezzling funds into cryptocurrency, and then convincing the entire government of a sovereign nation to embezzle them back to one political party.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You could say we don't have proof that Rishi Sunak isn't an alien from Alpha Centauri sent to Earth to eliminate donuts without holes, but you don't just make up extraordinary claims for no reason. It is logical to assume the simplest, boring thing is the truth unless you have evidence otherwise, a la Occam's razor.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • boole1854 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      U.S. sending money to Ukraine: True

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ukraine funding FTX: Mostly false. This appears to be a confusion related to the fact that Ukraine launched a website accepting cryptocurrency donations that were processed via FTX [1]. However, as far as I can tell, there was no funding of FTX by Ukraine other than possibly FTX earning transaction fees for processing the donations.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      FTX being 2nd largest donor to Democratic party in the U.S.: Semi-true. SBF was the 2nd largest donor, not FTX the company. [2]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      [1] https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/03/14/ukraine-partners-...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      [2] https://fortune.com/2022/11/10/sam-bankman-fried-ftx-joe-bid...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • mminer237 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ukraine purchased Javelin missiles and other US military equipment with its military aid: https://www.defensenews.com/congress/2019/09/25/what-you-nee...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Ukraine didn't contribute to FTX at all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • yonaguska 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From what I'm reading, Ukraine used FTX to facilitate donations to Ukraine. I'm waiting for more details on the claim that Ukraine actually directly funded FTX. In other funding news- FTX did fund one of the studies that "debunked" Ivermectin as an effective covid treatment. There's definitely a strong political slant to this scandal.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • mikeyouse 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I love that proving that a bunch of frauds who were promoting a drug that didn't work at all shows a "political slant". Funding studies to show which drugs treat (and don't treat) covid is unambiguously good and it's insane that it's considered political.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Edit: Great timing - DailyBeast literally just published a story exposing how the leader of one of those idiotic COVID misinformation groups spent her millions in ill-gotten gains: https://www.thedailybeast.com/covid-misinformation-group-ame...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • yonaguska 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It is insane that it's political. But that's what you get when pharmaceutical companies both test their products on behalf of the regulatory agencies and spend money on politicians. And there are incentives to either not study repurposing existing drugs or even spending money on proving they shouldn't compete with your patented drugs.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Let's talk about Andrew Hill and how a grant from Bill Gates resulted in him changing course on his Ivermectin findings.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I've been seeing articles here on hn for years disparaging corruption within academic journals, but suddenly with COVID, every journal maintained impeccable ethics right?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • loceng 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              There are plenty of studies and cohort analysis of Ivermectin studies that show it is highly effective with the right protocol; most of the Ivermectin studies showing it doesn't work aren't using proper doses, nor at the right time, nor for long enough period of time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • loceng 2 years ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              And quite interesting that most of the FTX team/founders are reported to now be in Hong Kong - arguably knowing they have the protection of China?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • jimcavel888 2 years ago