Big Pharma Greed’s Knows No Bounds
64 points by sfusato 2 years ago | 75 comments- wallscratch 2 years agoThey literally just saved the world, and we’re not going to give them any credit for it…?
- nsonha 2 years agowhat a simp, they have been "saving the world" since forever, it's how they make money. But sure we should give them credit for something we've already paid, now. Zero percent of that money is going into lobbying for their interests instead of the public's.
- atonse 2 years agoAnd we paid them extremely well to do so.
They made $18bn in profit. And the founder is with $6bn.
That’s plenty of credit.
- ProjectArcturis 2 years agoWhat's the economic value of returning the world to normalcy? It's in the trillions.
- pritambaral 2 years agoAnd how much of those spoils does Big Pharma deserve solely? Were there not other players who had a hand in this victory? Should they not share in the reaped economic value?
I'm talking, of course, of the public that paid for the development and roll-out of the vaccines.
- pritambaral 2 years ago
- ProjectArcturis 2 years ago
- lakomen 2 years agoThey were funded by public money...
- temptemptemp111 2 years ago[dead]
- nsonha 2 years ago
- nullish_signal 2 years agoI want an end to Pharmaceutical Ads in the USA
- nosianu 2 years agoIn support, the headline from four days ago:
> 70% of drugs advertised on TV are of “low therapeutic value,” study finds
> Ads often tout new, pricey drugs that are not much better than old, cheaper ones.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2023/01/most-prescription-dr...
Also:
> The US is one of only two countries that allows direct-to-consumer (DTC) drug advertisements, such as TV commercials. (The other is New Zealand.)
- Mountain_Skies 2 years agoAmazing how many of them don't even bother to advertise what the drug does. They just show happy people who say they use that brand of drug, often with zero context of what it actually does. It's mainly for brand affinity now.
- austinprete 2 years agoI’ve been curious about this as well, turns out these ads are classified by the FDA as “reminder ads” and aren’t legally required to list any risks since they don’t list uses [0]. Presumably great for reinforcing positive associations around a drug once it’s already somewhat well known, but morally questionable at best.
[0] - https://www.fda.gov/drugs/prescription-drug-advertising/basi...
- austinprete 2 years ago
- Mountain_Skies 2 years ago
- TrueGeek 2 years agoI spend $900 a month on an anti-seizure drug. At least, until I hit my $6,500 deductible.
The company that makes it is publicly traded so I looked up their financials. The drug is a generic and the patent expired decades ago. Very little is spent on “R&D”. Almost all of their money goes to “advertising”.
- rawgabbit 2 years agoDoes https://costplusdrugs.com have your medication?
- TrueGeek 2 years agoNot yet. I signed up for their alerts though and they’re adding new ones pretty quickly.
- TrueGeek 2 years ago
- dragonsky 2 years agoDid you happen to find if the same drug is available as a generic?
I use a daily medication. Every time I got to get t he script filled I get asked if I want the brand name or the generic. There is a two or three times price difference, why would I ever get the brand name?
- TrueGeek 2 years agoOh yeah, I definitely checked. There are two companies that make it. Both are priced exactly the same though.
- TrueGeek 2 years ago
- rawgabbit 2 years ago
- musicale 2 years ago"Breaking news: thousands rejoice as greedy big pharma exec serves lengthy prison sentence."
"Now a word from our sponsor: Crapitab - ask your doctor for a reason to take it! (Warning: stop taking Crapitab immediately if you experience any of the following symptoms, including but not limited to: insomnia, rash, multiple organ failure, breathing cessation, prolonged unconsciousness, or death.)"
- nosianu 2 years ago
- seaourfreed 2 years agoDon't worry. Congress is going to protect us, and stop all wrong doing. Just kidding. Congress is going to sell us out. Congress will create any and all corruption that the pharma industry want.
- amadeuspagel 2 years agoIf you produce something socially useless, no one cares how much you charge for it, but if you produce something that saves lives, then it's "greedy" to charge as much money as possible for it.
- pdonis 2 years ago> if you produce something that saves lives, then it's "greedy" to charge as much money as possible for it.
If you take billions of taxpayer money to fund your research and get special access to information from government agencies like the NIH that the taxpayers paid for, and then you try to quadruple the price of what you're producing after you've already sold billions of units at a nice tidy profit, yes, that's greedy.
If pharmaceutical companies were free market entities who took all of the risk of developing new drugs, then it might be justifiable for them to charge whatever the market will bear. But that's not how drug research works in our society; in our society, we already pay for much of the research with our taxes, so pharma companies that are doing parts of the research and producing the drugs are not operating in a free market. They are benefiting from government largesse, and there are limitations that go along with that.
- phpisthebest 2 years ago>>If you take billions of taxpayer money to fund your research and get special access to information from government agencies like the NIH that the taxpayers paid for, and
And exemption from all legal liability for your product even if due to quality control issues during manufacturing....
- nhchris 2 years ago> in our society, we already pay for much of the research with our taxes
I don't know if there was a study done for the Moderna vaccine funding, but the AstraZeneca vaccine research was 97% publicly funded, so "much" is an understatement.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/apr/15/oxfordastraz...
- blooalien 2 years ago> … "and there are limitations that go along with that."
There would be limitations if those governments involved weren't populated almost entirely by corporate owned puppets.
- phpisthebest 2 years ago
- happytoexplain 2 years agoYou're putting the word greedy in quotes, but what you're saying is exactly correct. People will pay anything to save their own life. If the market is allowed to react to that in an unrestricted manner, that quickly raises the wealth floor on being able to save your own life, which is, patently, morally incorrect in cases where the profit margin is high. It is antithetical to civilization. The fact that people who disagree with that high-level concept in the broad sense are not vanishingly rare is a desperate societal emergency.
- tombert 2 years agoIsn’t this the exact justification that Martin Shkreli used?
It’s not hypocritical; when your life literally depends on something, and they have a monopoly on the only thing that will save your life, it’s absolutely greedy to try and maximize profits.
When Apple overcharges for an iPhone, there are a few things that make this less evil:
1. There are lots of different smartphones out there that you have the option to buy instead. Even when I worked at Apple I found it surprisingly easy to get by on an Android for my first three months.
2. I don’t die when I don’t have an iPhone.
- throwawaymaths 2 years agoNot justifying fleecing taxpayers, but you also generally don't pay for drugs, your insurance or Medicare does. Most pharma (including iirc shkreli's) companies have access programs.
Not justifying Martin or excessive pharma prices but it really is the case that we should disabuse ourselves from the notion that one should be entitled to life-saving care.
That process comes with a lot of externalities. Most drugs are incredibly costly to manufacture in terms of environmental damage (petrochemical solvents and cosolvents, water for purification, etc). I loved my dad but when he was dying I remember wondering why our society was bearing the ~100k per week cost because he didn't want to die. When mom was too weak to pull the plug I stepped in and made the hard (easy?) choice.
- becuzThrowaway 2 years ago> but it really is the case that we should disabuse ourselves from the notion that one should be entitled to life-saving care.
I couldn't disagree more. If it truly is life-saving (as opposed to death-prolonging) care, we really should _dedicate_ ourselves to the notion that each of us should be entitled to life-saving care. That should be an explicit part of the social contract.
Oh, and btw, society was NOT paying ~100k to keep your dad alive. Assuming you're here in the U.S., if you were looking at medical bills to figure out that number, SURPRISE! those numbers are just made up. (Seriously, they're fiction)
That's not to say that you made the wrong choice with your dad, mind you. We do tend to prolong life way past the point of cruelty in this country.
- hjkl0 2 years ago> it really is the case that we should disabuse ourselves from the notion that one should be entitled to life-saving care.
I can’t imagine this point of view being very popular in places where universal health care is available.
And personally, I can’t imagine living in a place where it isn’t.
- becuzThrowaway 2 years ago
- throwawaymaths 2 years ago
- Swenrekcah 2 years agoYes it is. It’s the “as much money as possible” part that makes it so.
It’s fine to charge cost plus some nice profit.
But trying to maximise the price in a medical context is morally equivalent to finding a person dying in the desert and making them sign all their assets over to you before giving them water.
- from 2 years agoWhat people also don't realize is that they only have the 20 year patent period to make money in. After that the drug is copied by generics companies. This incentivises innovation while also not placing a permanent burden on the economy. Pharmaceuticals are 10-20% of healthcare spending and probably have a very good $/lives saved ratio. Isn't it great how you can just take cefalexin instead of having to get cut open and have an infection drained? 90% of all prescriptions in America are for generic drugs that cost almost nothing. It's easy to blame pharmaceutical companies because it is a somewhat concentrated industry but no one questions why their local urgent care physician is making $275,000 a year to basically Google symptoms and give out prescriptions.
- tombert 2 years agoI can’t speak for anyone else, but I absolutely question every aspect of why healthcare in the US is overpriced, including but not limited to overcharging for stuff that is a glorified search on webmd.
- sanp 2 years agoThe 20 year period is based on the assumption that allowing it is beneficial to society overall (inventor shares details to further human knowledge and in return gets to monetize). If this assumption is no longer valid (when pharma companies overcharge) then why should we continue to support such an arrangement?
- Sebguer 2 years agoYou're preaching a completely false dichotomy here, especially given that much of the research is publicly funded or heavily based upon existing public research, anyway.
- from 2 years agoI assume you're referring to studies like https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1715368115 that say publicly funded research has contributed to many major drugs. Yes that is true, but exactly how much is hard to quantify. If designing a new drug just required mooching off existing research the return on investment for making a new drug wouldn't be so high -- there is a reason every week small cap pharmaceutical companies on the NASDAQ either 10x or go to zero because of a drug approval/rejection. They are taking an enormous amount of risk! The average drug that gets approved cost a billion dollars to make.
And I can find studies like: https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57126
> In 2019, the pharmaceutical industry spent $83 billion dollars on R&D. Adjusted for inflation, that amount is about 10 times what the industry spent per year in the 1980s.
- from 2 years ago
- mlsu 2 years agoThis is the sad reality. Doctors, hospitals, and healthcare admin. staff consume the fat of healthcare market failure. But nobody wants to blame them -- they like their doctor; being a doctor is hard, so if you are a doctor you deserve a Ferrari.
- tombert 2 years ago
- detrites 2 years agoWhether true or apocryphal, there exists this intriguing idea that in China's past, they had a system of medicine where doctors were paid a salary when the client was in good health, which immediately ceased if they fell ill.
What's interesting about this, is the rest of the world typically does exactly this, with almost everything but not medicine. With medicine, people can pay more and more for products and services that are working less and less.
- luckylion 2 years agoWe do that with "almost everything"? I can't think of anything.
I don't think e.g. phone service is comparable, because while you might not pay when the service is down, the service's uptime doesn't depend on you. If you destroy your cell phone, you can't use the service, but the service is still working.
If you sold "medicine as a service", it would just include that, but it couldn't guarantee that you'd always be healthy, no matter what choices you made.
- detrites 2 years agoSure we do, as soon as anything degrades or completely stops working, whether a product or service, we ditch it and/or it is worked on until it's fixed.
Whereas with medicine, people will sit there and let the system slowly and agonisingly fail them over and over again, at tremendous personal expense, until they are literally dead.
Medical malpractice - that is, a medical professional getting their treatment provably wrong to the point it causes death instead of prevents it - has been a leading cause of death (in the top 5) for decades.
It's somewhat of an inversion of capitalism that such a dysfunction persists in just this one area.
Your analogy with cellphones doesn't relate this because cellphones work.
If instead, they also ranked top 5 out of all failed any-distance communications methods, alongside smoke-signals, pigeons, cans-on-a-string and megaphones, development would be focused on until they rank better.
When medical malpractice ranks in the bottom 5 causes of death, the positive mechanisms of capitalism will be functioning in this area.
- detrites 2 years ago
- ProjectArcturis 2 years agoIf that were the system, doctors would be incentivized to sign up as many healthy young people as possible, and to fire them as patients as soon as they got sick.
- detrites 2 years agoAgree, it's not a system that would work as I described it - for me it just raises interesting questions.
One way it could be modified would be if doctors had a cap on patients, couldn't refuse to treat their existing ones, and couldn't take on new ones. The cap amount being based on life expectancy balanced against a competitive income.
- detrites 2 years ago
- luckylion 2 years ago
- manuelabeledo 2 years agoWell, yeah? That is, essentially, the definition of greed: a "selfish and excessive desire for something".
I would say that excluding people from accessing life saving drugs, is definitely "greedy", even more so if the company has received a massive influx of cash from the government, like Moderna.
- thomassmith65 2 years agoWorded differently: the less captive the audience, the less significant is the issue of price-gauging.
- robnado 2 years agoWorded differently: when the demand curve is inelastic, changes in price don’t change demand much in the short term. For more elastic curves, higher prices reduce demand a lot more, which incentivizes setting a lower price if businesses are to optimize profit.
- anticensor 2 years agoYeah, pricing-based manipulation works only best if supply is completely inelastic but demand is completely elastic.
- anticensor 2 years ago
- robnado 2 years ago
- scotty79 2 years agoThat is correct. If you are away from me then I don't care. If I'm falling to my death but you somehow managed to grab the rope and can stop my fall and pull me back up but instead you use this opportunity to demand as much money from me as possible then calling you "greedy" is literally mildest what anyone can call you.
- lost_tourist 2 years agoThe hep c vaccine is one of the biggest examples of this. No money, no cure.
- lost_tourist 2 years ago
- guerrilla 2 years agoYes, when your life doesn't depend on it, then you don't care as much if someone is trying to exploit you.
- sanp 2 years agoThey make money because patents prevent others from producing that “something”. The justification for patents is that the inventor gets to milk their invention in return for sharing how they did it. This is based on the an assumption that society as a whole benefits from this arrangement. So, if society as a whole is not benefiting from patents because pharma companies are charging obscene amounts then it is time to get rid of patents for medicines (or regulate how much pharma companies get to charge).
- harimau777 2 years agoIt's more: If you withhold something that saves lives from people who can't afford it, then it's greedy.
- bobkazamakis 2 years ago...yes? Why is "greedy" in scare quotes?
- pdonis 2 years ago
- ur-whale 2 years ago
- solarkraft 2 years agoNo way, a company that is greedy. I'm more amazed by how much restraint some companies have shown during the pandemic; they could've milked the public even more than they have.
I don't really get the outrage here. Barely anyone still needs the vaccine and there's at least one good alternative, so who are they hurting except for themselves because nobody will buy their vaccine now?
Now if Pfizer/BioNTech were to raise the price to a similar level, there would actually be somewhat of a problem (.. for the US government, since they still pay for it, right?).
- akomtu 2 years agoGreed is a fundamental force of nature that gives life to the capitalism machine and our society. Money are the carrier particles of greed, they enable it to reach far. Corporations are the star-like centers of greed. Even though greed is poisonous, it's far better than fear that was the force behind master-slave societies of the past.
The next iteration of our society will run on pure ambition: the desire to be better, more knowledgeable or skillful, than others.
- based_karen 2 years ago[dead]
- pandeiro 2 years ago[flagged]
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 2 years agoEven at 100x the price, the COVID vaccines have more consumer surplus than most things people buy.
I want pharma and medical innovation to be huge money makers. I want founders and early employees in companies that innovate in these spaces to be fabulously wealthy. I want ambitious young people to dream of becoming a billionaire by curing cancer rather thank making a social media app.
- sokoloff 2 years agoI agree in part and disagree in part. I want there to be a financial incentive to improve the lives of humanity via medical advances, whether that’s pharmaceutical, surgical, assistive devices, etc.
I also want to leave money for the rest of the economy, so that doesn’t really leave room for $5200/year/person for 2 COVID shots. (That’s about 7.5% of GDP just for COVID shots if every American gets 2 such shots per year, which is pretty obviously untenable.)
- gtvwill 2 years agoDidn't really cure anything tho I'f they price treatment out of reach of the masses. It'd just be better seeing rules in place so billionaires don't exist. The concept one individual can have so much is absurd. Basically a sign of a failing society to allow such polarization between wages at the top and the bottom.
- hourago 2 years ago> I want pharma and medical innovation to be huge money makers.
I want citizens to not die of treatable diseases. Our goals seem to be different.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 2 years agoI want citizens not to die of untreatable diseases. It is better to have very expensive treatments for a disease than no treatments for a disease.
- hourago 2 years ago> It is better to have very expensive treatments for a disease than no treatments for a disease.
False duality. We can have treatments fairly priced. The only reason that this ones are so expensive is because monopolies and corruption.
- envp 2 years agoWhat good is a treatment if you can’t access it? If you’re poor enough even food poisoning is “untreatable”.
- hourago 2 years ago
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 2 years ago
- scotty79 2 years agoThat's not what happens in Big Pharma. In anything but covid their huge money makers are marketing, lobbying and bribery. Medical innovation lies somewhere at the bitter end.
Successful covid vaccines didn't come from Big Pharma. Moderna and Novartis were not that.
- bloodyplonker22 2 years agoI would like people to innovate as well, but covid vaccines are probably one of the worst examples that you could have used.
- sfusato 2 years ago> I want pharma and medical innovation to be huge money makers. I want founders and early employees in companies that innovate in these spaces to be fabulously wealthy.
Sure, in an utopian world that would work. But, here on planet Earth, that would massively increase the incentives of fraud. There are already huge issues with this. Increasing the payout by x100 would do more harm than good in this context.
- sokoloff 2 years ago
- pg_bot 2 years agoBig Pharma also pays billions in taxes to fund agencies like the NIH. While there are certainly a lot of shenanigans with intellectual property rights and market exclusivity at the end of the day we do get extreme value from pharmaceutical companies. If there was more competition, we would not see price hikes as often as we do.
- xracy 2 years agoPeople pretend like competition is some magic thing that could crop up, and not a thing that requires constant regulation to prevent companies from engaging in anti-competitive behavior. Every company is incentivized to engage in anti-competitive behavior. If you want more competition, they need to be strictly regulated.
- xracy 2 years agoAs proof of this, consider how incentivized even sports teams are to cheat in what would otherwise be a fair competition.
- xracy 2 years ago
- xracy 2 years ago