New Hampshire on the cusp of enshrining software freedom into law
257 points by leahlibre 2 years ago | 103 comments- leahlibre 2 years agoA hearing for a bill will take place in New Hampshire on February 16th, 2023, for a bill that, if passed, will require state agencies to accommodate libre software users in public-facing applications, so that people do not have to use proprietary software to access state services on the internet.
Your help is needed. More information is available in the linked article.
- CharlesW 2 years agoI read the article, but didn’t see a list of the proprietary software that’s required to interact with New Hampshirite state agencies. Are there examples of this problem?
- kerkeslager 2 years agoI'm not sure of New Hampshire's stage agencies, but the most common problem I've experiences interacting with government agencies is PDFs. The format is fairly well-designed to be easy to read so many libre software alternatives can view PDFs, but forms are another story. If a PDF form hasn't been tested in libre readers, it would be unwise to assume that it works in libre readers (or even some proprietary readers). And if testing discovers that it doesn't work, getting it to work isn't necessarily possible with the PDF editing tools available, as making their editors compatible with libre readers isn't exactly a priority for Adobe.
- gerdesj 2 years agoI recently edited a pdf form using Okular (KDE app on Linux - Arch in this case). It was a pretty involved multi page bank mortgage related form. The app that designed this beauty was running on a Mac (can't remember more but I did see Mac in some metadata on it). One field went a bit odd - it would show one number and print another after I got my data entry a bit wrong and corrected it. Clearly a bug.
I passed the form over to Chrome's pdf handler and got the same result. I also passed it through Windows based stuff - I run an IT company. Same result. I did eventually manage to clear the fault.
If I recall correctly it was the day field for date of birth. My DoB is 7th December - I'm a Brit so 7/12. The field wanted 07 for single digit days and I entered 7 followed by the month numbers. So I ended up with 71 in the day field. Field validation was probably not a consideration for an admin in a bank tasked with knocking up a form used by millions of people! If that thing was from IT then they should look for another job.
Anyway - Okular worked the same way as the rest and shared their faults. It did at least manage to look much prettier and work very, very quickly.
- kevin_thibedeau 2 years agoThe problem is new style PDF forms implemented with JS. Old style PDF forms should be handled by open source readers.
- CharlesW 2 years agoThat hadn't even occurred to me, thank you!
- gerdesj 2 years ago
- TylerE 2 years agoIt’s not as bad currently, but 10 years ago it wasn’t that unusual to find things like government and bank websites using freaking ActiveX.
These days I would imagine it means things like not publishing videos with (only) proprietary codecs, or using some sort of non-standard non-open 2fa or something.
- kerkeslager 2 years ago
- Dalewyn 2 years ago>Your help is needed.
With all due respect, speaking as someone not in New Hampshire, your (and the article's) request to me and others like myself is a subversion of democracy.
This New Hampshire state bill is being deliberated in the New Hampshire state legislature, to be eventually voted on by New Hampshire state legislators voted in by and representing the people of the state of New Hampshire.
As a strictly state matter, any influence from outside the state of New Hampshire is a subversion of democracy in the state.
- AnthonyMouse 2 years agoThe people of New Hampshire and the United States have voted to protect free speech including by people who live outside of the state and the union.
Corporations from other states and countries who don't like this bill make use of that. Proponents can too.
- Dalewyn 2 years agoYour right to free speech ends where their right to free and fair elections begins.
There is nothing fair about a state vote corrupted by voices outside of the state, let alone outside of the country.
- Dalewyn 2 years ago
- gameman144 2 years agoIt's not asking us to falsify votes or commit fraud or anything, just asking for people to sing the virtues of this approach.
As an analogy, say Colorado passed a law that New Hampshire is also considering passing. In that case would you consider it interference for people from Colorado to speak in New Hampshire saying "You guys shouldn't pass this, it worked out poorly for us in Colorado"?
- Dalewyn 2 years ago>would you consider it interference
Generally speaking: Yes.
- Dalewyn 2 years ago
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 2 years agoTrade groups in the US routinely try to influence state legislation outside the state where they are domiciled, and sometimes outside the country.
For example, the Business Software Alliance (BSA), founded by Microsoft, operates in over 30 countries. It engages in both lobbying and litigation, around the US and around the world. Individual companies engage in lobbying outside of trade groups as well.
https://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240234078/Government-op...
The irony of the parent comment is that "tech" companies, the ones that disseminate proprietary software, have done and continue to do more to "subvert democracy" than any individual in history has ever done, and they do this more or less free from civil liability or criminal prosecution.
This bill is interesting because, as it currently reads, it does not force the state to use non-proprietary software. It is not stopping the state from purchasing Microsoft software licenses, for example. Instead it prohibits the state from forcing the residents of NH to use proprietary software in order to interact with the state agencies:
"21-W:1 Mandatory Use of Proprietary Software Prohibited. No person in the state of New Hampshire shall be required to use proprietary software for any interaction with the government, including, but not limited to: the filing or payment of taxes, remote appearance for court proceedings, the taking of standardized tests or the completion of coursework by school students, applying for or receiving unemployment benefits, or other similar benefits, unless the government agency has determined that the proprietary software is the only means available for the required interaction. In such cases of proprietary software use, the agency shall post a notice of its determination and the use of proprietary software on the agency's website."
This is a topic that comes up on HN with moderate frequency. For example, a website tries to force the user to use a specific client, which is effectively proprietary software under the control of a "tech" company.
The client might be a Big Tech advertising-sponsored web browser that no one except Big Tech employees ever audits, modifies or compiles, regardless of whether the source code is available. It might be a closed mobile app that pins TLS certificates to stop anyone from observing what data it records about its user and sends to the "tech" company, sometimes called "phoning home" to the "mothership".
The website might use something like Cloudflare in the name of "protection" primarily to restrict clients to a certain browsers controlled by Big Tech that can be leveraged against users (ad targets) for data collection, surveillance and advertising.
https://www.cloudflare.com/solutions/protect-websites-applic...
- 2 years ago
- throwaway892238 2 years agoSometimes democracy gets things wrong. States have historically liked to do fucked up shit and then hide behind "states' rights".
- Dalewyn 2 years ago[flagged]
- Dalewyn 2 years ago
- AnthonyMouse 2 years ago
- CharlesW 2 years ago
- cjpearson 2 years agoThat price is going to scare away most voters. $1000 per citizen for something that few people care about.
You could argue that the cost estimation is a worst-case scenario. It assumes that 90% of the affected software will be made compliant, but it's also possible that they just use proprietary exception for most applications. It would cost much less in that case, but it would do so by abandoning the purpose of the bill.
The bill died in a unanimous vote last time around, and it's not going to anywhere close to success this time either. However some other parts of the 2022 bill (considering libre solutions for new applications, limiting NDAs and non-competes, allow audits of software used in criminal cases) are more feasible and might stand a chance if they're also split into new bills.
- leereeves 2 years ago> $1000 per citizen
How did they reach that figure? $1.4 billion dollars seems like far too much.
Edit: Interesting. Their methodology talks about rewriting all the state's public-facing server side applications to be open source. (Hence the cost.)
I thought the bill was just requiring that the public be able to use libre browsers and apps on their own devices to access state services, not that the state's server code had to be open source.
- AnthonyMouse 2 years agoSuggestion: Pass a bill requiring all new or upgraded systems to be non-proprietary. Then it has no current-year budgetary cost.
The problem with doing it this way is you're accounting for the bill as the cost of upgrading all government systems [to non-proprietary ones], which is on the same order as the cost of upgrading all government systems in general -- something that happens eventually but on its own budget.
So require upgrades to be to non-proprietary systems. Then you just wait. In maybe ten or fifteen years pass a bill requiring any remaining proprietary systems to be replaced, which by then will be fewer of them and by then will be the ones that most need to be replaced.
- cjpearson 2 years agoYou can read their methodology in the bill text [0]. In short, there are 271 applications they found that must be brought into compliance and estimated the timeline and staffing costs based on similar recently completed projects.
[0] https://gencourt.state.nh.us/lsr_search/billText.aspx?id=188...
- default-kramer 2 years agoI don't think the bill requires the server side to be open source. I think it is sufficient as long as the client side can use libre software to interact with the government. (But this is not explicitly stated in any of the links I followed.)
Another comment mentions fillable PDFs not working in non-Adobe software. This seems like the most likely culprit to me. And in general, if someone has to go back over the entire surface area of an application and re-test everything to find all the quirks like this, I can start to understand how that huge cost estimate might make sense.
- AnthonyMouse 2 years ago
- default-kramer 2 years agoYeah, these estimates blew me away. https://gencourt.state.nh.us/lsr_search/billText.aspx?id=188...
I guess there are all kinds of aspects of the government I'm not even aware of, but still... Everything I see is always browser-based with maybe some PDFs. What even is "NH FIRST (statewide ERP)"? Why does the general public interact with an ERP at all? I'm assuming this bill means that individuals should not be compelled to use proprietary software, but if it includes businesses also then the price tag makes more sense.
- pessimizer 2 years ago> You could argue that the cost estimation is a worst-case scenario.
It probably should be. What might improve the bill is trying to get a similar bill passed in a few other state legislatures and working with them as a group to lower costs.
- fatnoah 2 years agoThe bill pegs the cost at nearly $300M/year for 5 years, with the funding coming from the state's "General Fund". According to the State of NH, that fund supports about $1.7B in total spending. There's no way a state with such a limited fund and desire for taxes is going to spend such a large percentage of the budget on that effort.
- 2 years ago
- leahlibre 2 years agoAs someone who I respect once told me:
Freedom isn't free.
- leereeves 2 years ago
- nerdjon 2 years agoThis feels like a case that I really need an article explaining this not from their prospective.
On here https://libreboot.org/news/usa-libre.html one of the examples given:
"Bans state agencies from using proprietary software - maybe this could include schools, in the future!"
"Bans state agencies from purchasing proprietary software if libre software exists, for a given task"
That seems... excessive and way to heavy handed. Doesn't that reduce the ability of a specific agency to choose either the best or just what people are familiar with (which means what people will be effective with) software for a given task/department?
Or am I completely misreading what this is saying?
Advocating and educating people on open source or free available software is a good thing, but straight up requiring its use if it exists seems really bad and kinda counter to the culture that this kind of software should have.
- AnthonyMouse 2 years agoRequiring people to use any particular software is bad.
The government wanting to use libre software and passing a bill saying that it shall use libre software is not that.
- nerdjon 2 years agoHow is it not given those 2 quotes?
This sounds like it is requiring the use libra software even if the alternative is superior.
- AnthonyMouse 2 years agoIt's not a law that prohibits citizens from using proprietary software, it's a law that prohibits the government from doing it. But the government is the thing enforcing the law, so it's really just the government choosing not to use proprietary software itself.
- AnthonyMouse 2 years ago
- nerdjon 2 years ago
- AnthonyMouse 2 years ago
- leepowers 2 years agoDoIT estimates the project will take at least 5 years to make the necessary changes resulting in a total state general fund cost of approximately $1.47 Billion .... Total Annual Cost $293,894,620
The Department states historically the cost of implementing a new application, whether replacing an existing application or implementing applications where none existed before, is three to seven times the cost of purchasing the software licenses. [1]
Do the people of New Hampshire believe so strongly in using non-proprietary software that they're willing to take on this extra cost? Is there widespread support and understanding of free or libre software amongst the population?
My experience has been that people have a transactional relationship to software, not a values-based one. Which is the main reason the various free software movements have yet to gain wide spread traction. People don't seem to care about how software is created and how it is licensed but whether it meets a particular need. (I need to file my taxes. I want to listen to music. I want to book a reservation, etc.) The challenge is not necessarily to "make software free" but to first get people to view software through a holistic, non-transactional lens.
The hurdle for this legislation will be convincing legislators to spend $1.47bn on a software replacement that doesn't add any additional features. I mean, are citizens really going to care that the web-based interface they use to file their taxes is no longer using proprietary software under the hood? If they're viewing software through the transactional lens then this plan will seem wasteful and non-productive.
[1] https://gencourt.state.nh.us/lsr_search/billText.aspx?id=188...
- giantg2 2 years agoI'll be downed hard for this, but...
If it doesn't provide any benefits, then this is a philosophical change. Seems almost like a case for separation of church and state.
- whateveracct 2 years agoPhilosophy and ideals are a perfectly fair argument when it comes to legislation like this. Even if it doesn't pass the MBA sniff test.
- giantg2 2 years agoWhy? There could be better ways to implement, like just applying this as systems meet their natural end of life rather than rewrites. If we're fine with ideological legislation, then why not for other things?
- giantg2 2 years ago
- whateveracct 2 years ago
- giantg2 2 years ago
- smeej 2 years agoWas a NH resident for years (recent ones, even). Can't think of a single time I had to interact with a state agency that required proprietary software. It would stand out if I had.
The closest I can even think of is if they're using Zoom for remote hearings? Never had to have a hearing about anything.
This seems like a solution in search of a problem.
- brk 2 years agoSame. Former NH resident and have been a Linux / free software proponent for decades. For the most have not even had a functional Windows machine most of the time. Do not ever recall a scenario where I encountered some kind of proprietary software. We had multiple houses, cars, boats, dogs, other property. All kinds of things that I had to register or deal with the state on annually and can’t recall any issues.
- midoridensha 2 years ago>The closest I can even think of is if they're using Zoom for remote hearings?
As a Linux user, I don't even have a problem with this personally. Zoom is a free download, or you can use it in a browser (the native application works a lot better though). It may not be FOSS, but it doesn't keep me from using Linux, or require me to pay anything to attend a meeting. The FOSS alternatives to Zoom honestly are not good, especially if you're dealing with some kind of meeting with dozens or hundreds of participants. Even MS Teams works OK for Linux users; you just use it in a browser window.
With so much stuff working in browsers these days, OS choice just isn't the problem it used to be 15-20 years ago. The only thing I can think of offhand where I had a problem was with a fillable PDF form I had to use for work a year or two ago: only actual Adobe software would work. I ended up having to use Wine, and even then had a lot of trouble.
- fatnoah 2 years agoThere are many web-based things that technically require Internet Explorer, even though other browsers seem to work fine. The real issue is likely that most of the things were built with IE in mind and only formally tested on IE. I feel like the real first step is simply to audit the functionality of these things in various browsers to see if they actually work properly or not.
- smeej 2 years agoEven Windows is now rolling out an update that removes IE from systems and replaces it with Edge.
Suffice it to say this problem doesn't require a government solution.
- smeej 2 years ago
- brk 2 years ago
- userbinator 2 years agoAs the state whose official motto is "live free or die", this might be the only place in the US where things like this may get noticed.
That said, given how I've been mainly on the Windows side for the past decades and that hasn't stopped me from learning or being in control (although that is increasingly being taken away by the excuse of "security"), maybe enshrining the right to reverse-engineer and modify proprietary software is more important.
Ironically, the Libreboot logo is remarkably reminiscent of John Deere's.
- snvzz 2 years ago>16 February 2023, 1PM: prohibiting, with limited exceptions, state agencies from requiring use of proprietary software in interactions with the public (house bill: HB 617-FN)
Seems pretty basic to me. What's concerning is that it isn't already law everywhere.
- imoverclocked 2 years ago> … alongside the rest of humanity in a collective development effort, as opposed to the alternative where we would be restricted by companies like Microsoft or Apple, who only care about controlling us to make money.
I was optimistic until I read this sentence.
So, does this bill mean that products like MS Office can’t be used in schools because it would force students to use proprietary software? Is it just targeting websites that use extensions that are only usable in a certain browser?
The stated goals seem good at first glance but then the justifications go off the rails for me.
> You can’t become a competent programmer by using Windows or MacOS.
MacOS is BSD based and runs most OSS so, I’m not even sure how they are coming up to this point.
Similarly, Windows has been used for development and teaching development at universities for a long time.
- Swenrekcah 2 years ago> So, does this bill mean that products like MS Office can’t be used in schools because it would force students to use proprietary software? Is it just targeting websites that use extensions that are only usable in a certain browser?
Isn’t it rather that schools can’t force students to use proprietary software? They can have an Office license but they also have to maintain (or pay someone to) something like LibreOffice.
I spent a year in a German university and all the computers could boot up to windows, Linux or BSD depending on the user’s preference.
- lalopalota 2 years ago> So, does this bill mean that products like MS Office can’t be used in schools ...
It means that the courts, government, etc. cannot require a form or document be submitted in Word format; their website can't require Internet Explorer or Chrome to be usable; stuff like that.
- impossiblefork 2 years ago>So, does this bill mean that products like MS Office can’t be used in schools because it would force students to use proprietary software? Is it just targeting websites that use extensions that are only usable in a certain browser?
Wouldn't that be sensible though?
If the software is gratis and FOSS, then all the children can use it in whatever context they want.
This is not true for MacOS or Windows. People may not own MacOS devices or have the money for the licenses.
- __MatrixMan__ 2 years agoIt would be quite sensible.
If a private company tricked your school into training you on their stack... that's not an education, it's an ad (and corruption to boot). If you job wants to use MATLAB, they can train you on MATLAB. Your python/octave/whatever skills will transfer.
- imoverclocked 2 years agoI agree in spirit but not in practice.
I used to think everybody using Matlab thinks like a programmer. The problem is that many people who use Matlab are something else first. Matlab is just the tool available to them that has a very specific set of functionality and a GUI to make it somewhat accessible. Octave is a great piece of software but I stopped championing for others after knowing enough scientists that just want to use a library for a minute that only works in Matlab because of some quirk or special function that doesn't exist in Octave.
Another reason this doesn't quite work in practice is the interview. Imagine, potential employer asks if you have ever used Matlab. Two potential responses here: 1) No, I've used octave though. 2) Yes.
Both are good answers but, convince me the typical employer wants to hear 1 over 2.
- imoverclocked 2 years ago
- 2 years ago
- __MatrixMan__ 2 years ago
- thewebcount 2 years agoAgreed. This was such a stupid take that it’s going to turn off most who read it. I think the goal of the bill is great, but I wouldn’t take it seriously after reading this person’s take on it and would assume it was put forth by ideologues who have unrealistic expectations of how people actually live.
- traverseda 2 years agoThe author of this blog post does not appear to be in any way affiliated with the author of this bill, or even live in the US for that matter.
The head of the libreboot project has been involved in some controversy in the past, and I'm presuming this was written by her. It's not surprising to see her phrase this in some indelicate ways, given past hot takes, but I don't think you should let that affect your opinion on the bill itself too much.
- lostmsu 2 years ago> You can’t become a competent programmer by using Windows or MacOS.
Not gonna fly with over 50% of engineers. For a good reason too
- Swenrekcah 2 years ago
- Scubabear68 2 years agoI’m tempted to say this is a result of the politics of our times, but I guess extremism has been around forever.
In this case they are taking what is, at its core, may be a pretty good idea, and then they load it down with rhetoric. And hence guarantee to turn off people with slightly different opinions, and confuse people who haven’t the slightest clue what they are talking about.
Given that nearly everyone in the Western World works for some kind of corporation, starting off by calling them evil is not going to get you very far.
- anigbrowl 2 years agoDon't expect government to go open source. Use open source to supersede government functionality.
- AnthonyMouse 2 years agoHow do I use open source to supercede filing taxes or pulling permits?
- anigbrowl 2 years agoYou don't get to just do it all at once. In the case of permits, for example, you could work towards something that documents agreements between groups of neighbors. My suggestion is that open source can be used to develop alternative governance structures, not that it is a free pass to get out of legal obligations.
- AnthonyMouse 2 years agoThe point is that legal obligations shouldn't mandate the use of proprietary software. There shouldn't be a government filing process that requires a proprietary application to fill in fields in a PDF or only accepts documents in Microsoft formats. Tax dollars should never go to Oracle.
- AnthonyMouse 2 years ago
- anigbrowl 2 years ago
- AnthonyMouse 2 years ago
- micromacrofoot 2 years agoCalling this “libre software” instead of “free software” seems very self-serving
> You can’t become a competent programmer by using Windows or MacOS. Linux or BSD are your only real choice, because that’s where all the interesting development happens.
uh excuse me?
- asoneth 2 years ago> Calling this “libre software” instead of “free software” seems very self-serving
How so?
When talking to a non-technical audience my experience has been that the term "free software" is misinterpreted more often than not. If a name always requires an ancillary explanation ("...as in freedom, not beer") and collides with a common and wildly different meaning then it is not a good name.
"Open Source" advocates realized early on that the name was a fatal liability and switched to a significantly better one.
Trying to rebrand free (as in freedom) software movement as "libre" is probably too little, too late but I don't think it hurts to try.
- micromacrofoot 2 years agoBecause the people doing it seem to run LibreOffice
- asoneth 2 years agoPerhaps. It's also possible that this reverses causality and that they use the product name "LibreOffice" because of the existing term "libre software", rather than using "libre software" primarily because that's what the product is called.
After all, "libre software" has been used in English since the 1990s, the EU was writing legislation about libre software in the 2000s, the Free Software Foundation has hosted an annual LibrePlanet conference since 2006, and even gnu.org recommends using terms like "free (libre) software".
- asoneth 2 years ago
- micromacrofoot 2 years ago
- nhooyr 2 years agoHe's not wrong. Certainly when it comes to the full scope of being a programmer, Linux and BSD are your only real options. You can't easily add a new filesystem or screw with the kernel on macOS/windows without having to buy hundreds of dollars worth of their books and attend conferences.
There isn't really any good detailed up to date documentation online about either. The docs for linux/bsd aren't perfect either but at least there you can always fall back on the source. That makes a massive difference.
For example, one of the reasons I switched from Java to Go back in the day is that I could actually read the source code of the APIs I was using. So I could fully understand the standard library whereas in Java it was all obfuscated bytecode. I'm not sure if the situation has changed with OpenJDK but my point stands, an open core system is far superior platform for learning.
- anigbrowl 2 years agoIt's not that Linux/BSD don't offer the most freedom (though as many have pointed out MacOS is essentially BSD with an Apple WM/GUI). It's the snobbishness of saying 'only ____ makes you a TWUE PWOGWAMMER'.
You can see this to some extent in other professions. Cardiologists and neurosurgeons get paid big bucks because their job is life or death stuff and requires skill and innovation. But would you want to work with a cardiologist that goes around sneering at every other kind of medical professional and saying they're not real doctors? Of course not, because they're assholes and when people like that screw up they'll blame their colleagues or patient rather than admit fault.
Back in the tech context, you can pursue authenticity into absurdity. You're not a real programmer unless you use (language). You're not a real programmer unless you contribute the language. You're not a real programmer unless you get into kernel hacking. Sure, you call yourself a programmer, but do you even assembler? Programming? Sorry, I design chips. Chips? Do you even basic circuit designs. Me, I roll my own capacitors built from carbon nanotubes...and so on up through materials science, physics, and mathematics.
- LeFantome 2 years agoWell, you cannot directly “screw with the kernel” on Windows. I am not sure how that is keeping you from growing as a developer exactly though. You can write your own kernel from scratch using Windows as your host platform. And, of course, you can build a filesystem to use with Windows. You can even make it Open Source as well which many have.
If you do want to “screw” with the system on Windows, one option would be to replace the MS stuff one DLL at a time. You might take a DLL from ReactOS for example and make it work with your version of Windows, extending or altering it as you desire.
- jt2190 2 years ago> For example, one of the reasons I switched from Java to Go back in the day is that I could actually read the source code of the APIs I was using.
What APIs were you using? I haven’t used Java in a while but one of the main attractions for me was that I could download and read the source code. (I’d been in the closed-source Microsoft ecosystem before that.)
- micromacrofoot 2 years agoof course they’re wrong, there are thousands of competent programmers working on windows and macos, I love linux I just hate this kind of hyperbolic self-aggrandizing
- userbinator 2 years agoYou can't easily add a new filesystem or screw with the kernel on macOS/windows without having to buy hundreds of dollars worth of their books and attend conferences.
There isn't really any good detailed up to date documentation online about either.
That's not true, at least for Windows. MS has published a lot of docs on their site, e.g.:
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/i...
What does get in the way with newer versions of Windows is driver signing, but that's not a huge obstacle.
- redeeman 2 years ago> whereas in Java it was all obfuscated bytecode.
uhm... when was this? the jdk has included "src.zip" since.... forever(atleast 15 years). This included the entire class library, and any half competent IDE could(and still can) view it directly if you simply went "view source".
This goes back to before oracle purchased sun, and as such way before openjdk aswell.
- yCombLinks 2 years agoJava went open source in 2006. The first go release was 2009
- anigbrowl 2 years ago
- asoneth 2 years ago
- 1659447091 2 years agoI don't see new benefits to users as the user already has a choice in what computer they buy and what software to use. As far as I know, schools provide students with computers and if you use your own there are already ways to work with different file formats. I use OSS on MacOS all the time, works fine.
US government data.gov provides many formats that require neither Apple nor Windows. File your taxes using a pen, envelope and stamp or use the online sites - no proprietary software needed. Use forms online through their web portal. I'm just not seeing where the friction is here to require a law.
>>If no laws exist that protect libre software projects, then they are vulnerable.
How so? People picking MacOS/Win over Linux because it's easier for them is a choice we already have. If you want to mess around with Linux, knock yourself out, but my parents won't. It also seem to want to force MacOS and Windows source code to be available for anyone to browse (poach)
>>because if states stop relying on proprietary software licenses, the money they currently spend on that can instead be spent elsewhere, or on paying programmers
That is what I'm already assuming I'm doing by buying MacOS because Apple pays the programmers that create their software that I choose to buy. So I'm supporting the programmers that made the software I use, as are the states when they pay Microsoft or who ever.
A less directly related concern I have is that it reads as an outside group meddling with US law in order to force/manipulate a cascading effect, presumably because whatever country they are from is going to follow the US? Or on a less conspiral thought, it's abusing US law for something better severed by Marketing.
>>I once again call to action, any person that lives in New Hampshire or the surrounding states in the USA. Your participation could help secure the rights of all libre software users and developers, well into the future. I myself do not live in the US, so I’m hoping that my American readers will listen well to what I have to say. [*note i appreciate the disclosure]
>>...it will provide the libre software movement a foot in the door, that could lead to greater reform at a later date, and strengthen the entire movement. This is because of the knock-on effect it would have: as more people benefit from it, more states (in the US) and countries outside of the US may follow, implementing similar laws.
- NickNaraghi 2 years agoHow would this affect something like Tornado Cash?
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 2 years agoProgrammers have got to be the stupidest profession with regard to money.
Every single profession, be they doctors, lawyers, actors, artists, tries to increase the value of their work. Programmers go out of their way to devalue the result of their work (software), with the result that the main ways to make money from software is either to use it to power ads, use it to power commerce (Amazon), or use it to power hardware (Apple) but not really to sell software itself.
- TeMPOraL 2 years agoYet somehow, they're much more monetarily successful than the other professions, both individually and as a field.
> Programmers go out of their way to devalue the result of their work (software)
Here's where I think you're wrong. Programmers, like doctors and lawyers and actors and other professionals, are ultimately being paid for their labor, not the result of it. Result is the desirable thing, but from the professional's point of view, it's just a side effect.
You may think otherwise when looking at e.g. doctors and lawyers, but that's because the results is almost always one-off and thus impossible to copy. When a doctor diagnoses and cures my condition, it's not something I can pirate and reuse the next time, or give to a friend. When a lawyer writes a document for me, I may be able to reuse or share that document, but the actual value is in that lawyer's signature - or provenance in general.
Software is free on the margin. So are musical pieces, movies, TV shows, etc., which is why there's a lot of whining of artists (and/or their publishers) about the Internet killing them, etc. But, again, those artifacts are just side effects for the profession. Money is being made on selling labor.
From that point of view, if you ignore the utopian ideals and the general pay-it-forward morality, FLOSS is still perfectly sensible thing for the profession: software is free on the margin, therefore worthless to sell directly - but it makes sense for you to make more of it, because it's a credible signal of your competence. That is, the way most people make money on FLOSS contributions is by using those contributions to build reputation and relationships, and then leveraging those to increase the amount of money they can charge for their labor.
Or, in other words, at the individual level, the software profession lives by a generalized form of CV-driven development.
- lukifer 2 years agoPerhaps you've never heard of Doctors Without Borders, pro bono, community theater, or the Creative Commons?
There is more to life than merely maximizing one's bargaining leverage.
- orbital223 2 years agoDoctors without borders provide free labor to needy children in war torn countries. Programmers provide free labor to first world corporations worth millions of dolars.
- TeMPOraL 2 years ago> Programmers provide free labor to first world corporations worth millions of dolars.
The equivalent of this for doctors is called residency. It's an early stage in their career, during which they're laboring for free or being severely underpaid, in exchange for (sometimes) some experience, and finally for a stamp that certifies they're the real deal now - which lets them start charging for their labor properly.
Software career progression is less streamlined and less credentialized - there are many paths to necessary skills, and many ways of proving you have them. Open source work is one way to credibly demonstrate the necessary skills, and can substitute for or complement your education or work history in your quest for negotiating a higher salary.
- TeMPOraL 2 years ago
- orbital223 2 years ago
- r_hoods_ghost 2 years agoYep. The ideology around foss developed as it did precisely because it's original proponents did not have to make a living from developing and selling software, but were instead academics who already had an income from elsewhere (tenure, grants, mummy and daddy etc.)
- pdntspa 2 years agoThere are so many people out there who are now technology practitioners because they had a chance to self-train on the same tools that professionals use, which are freely available at no cost since paid software is vastly more expensive than they could ever hope to afford.
Programmers aren't stupid, we are fortunate that we can make our living using the software we build rather than being forced to sell it.
Open-source software is a gift to the world and humanity. But of course there is going to be the peanut gallery that thinks everything should be profitized.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 2 years agoActually, most of these companies provide their commercial tools either free or deeply discounted to students so they can learn.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 2 years ago
- michaelmrose 2 years agoThe purpose of a profession is to add useful value to the world not to extract as much value from it and give as little as possible. People don't need "software" they need services and products that in turn are enabled by software which is why in general why the production of software is highly paid.
- TeMPOraL 2 years ago