Ask HN: Hybrid or Full EV Car in Flyover States for 2023 (US)

11 points by droobles 2 years ago | 31 comments
Hello fellow Hackers who read News,

My wife and I are about done with our ICE cars that are both coincidentally reaching their end of life. We're thinking about trading in the cars and taking advantage of 2023 tax credits towards an EV or Plug-In Hybrid. My only reservation with going all-out on a full EV car is we like to road trip around the South (Ozarks, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, etc) and we live in a decently sized city the Midwest; we're not confident that our region and where we like to travel has a reliable charging network. A lot of opinions I've seen on Reddit, for example, seem to be mostly from people out West or North East where there are very strong charging networks.

EV and Plug-in Hybrid/Traditional Hybrid owners who drive around the Midwest and Rust belt, what do you think?

Also, I'm fine with encouraging a general discussion on the state of EV adoption in the US or elsewhere in 2023 because I know that will just naturally come up in child comments.

Please no flame wars on car preferences. Thank you and have a great day!

  • breput 2 years ago
    If you do a lot of short range commuting and have a way to charge it at home, a PHEV could work - but good luck trying to buy one right now.

    Otherwise get a hybrid or Tesla, period. There are nice non-Tesla EV cars available but the charging infrastructure, even in high EV-density states, is unreliable. This should improve in the next 3-5 years but you can not currently depend on the chance of finding working CCS fast chargers to justify any non-Tesla option for road trips in many parts of the country. Also note that very few non-Tesla fully electric vehicles are currently eligible for the tax credit due to not being built in, or batteries sourced from, North America. Edit: [3]

    I recently came back from a 1800 mile road trip across the central western USA in a Tesla Model Y and never had a moment of concern about the charging infrastructure, including rolling into a Supercharger at 4 AM with 2% state of charge and just knowing that it would work. There are definitely areas, mostly west of the Mississippi, with significant pockets without good Supercharger coverage[0] although with an adapter you can also charge Teslas at CCS stations or even at RV parks.

    If you want to see how your situation might work, A Better Route Planner[1] and PlugShare[2] are good resources for being able to specify your car and route and see how an EV may work for you. But honestly, just get a Model Y Long Range with the full $7,500 tax credit and enjoy!

    [0] https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&bounds=57.514620727135494%2...

    [1] https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

    [2] https://www.plugshare.com/

    [3] https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax2023.shtml

    • seanmcdirmid 2 years ago
      In general, if an area isn’t covered by a Tesla super charger, it isn’t covered by CCS L3 chargers either. Canada is a bit different however.

      I have an i4 and am planning our first road trip in it. I’m keeping it simple, we will just go from Seattle to Wenatchee. I don’t think we could make John Day Oregon reliably yet, even in a Tesla that would be hard.

      • breput 2 years ago
        It looks like an easy trip, honestly.

        ABRP shows[0] plenty of Superchargers along the route and a suggests only a total of 50 minutes of charging which are nicely spaced for eating and breaks, although I'd probably add a buffer in there as well.

        Round trip[1] has more stops, obviously, but easily doable without any more planning than getting in the car and driving.

        The i4 is a cool looking car, but maybe you could rent a Tesla from Hertz (the devil) or something like Turo and give it a try?

        [0] https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=0ef3d1ec-9efc-419...

        [1] https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=44efaba5-b904-4a1...

        • seanmcdirmid 2 years ago
          The i4 can get there, but the last leg is a long one, and you have only one L2 charger for the whole town when you arrive…we’ll, it’s 60kw or so, it might work.
    • syntaxing 2 years ago
      I don’t live in a fly over state but I do own a Ford Escape PHEV (probably the most affordable option for a PHEV). Range wise, a PHEV would go further than a typical ICE by a large margin. On a full tank, I can easily go 400 miles+ driving 75 mph+ for most of the drive. Mind you, I’m on a 11 gallon tank. If I stay local, I usually hit a combined 100 mpg. Which means with my electric and gas usage, I fill up my tank every 1K miles. I have free charging at work and it’s one way about 25 miles which means I almost never use gas for my work commute.

      I think one thing people don’t talk enough about is how much increase quality of life the EV portion brings. Idling for a drive thru? Zero gas. Napping in your car during lunch when it’s 90 degrees outside? Well it’ll be a cool 70 inside your car with zero gas or engine noise. The driving feel of a PHEV is also significantly better, instant torque and the electric to engine crossover is so smooth that you don’t even notice it. Also regen break saves a ton. I was stuck in an unforeseen traffic jam for about 5 miles with stop and go traffic. I barely used more than 5 miles of electric range since regen recovered so much energy.

      Edit: Almost forgot to mention the best part about having a hybrid or PHEV! There is no on/off engine that all new regular gas cars have.

      • droobles 2 years ago
        Thanks for you point of view on being a PHEV owner. These were all the benefits I was hoping for.
      • toomuchtodo 2 years ago
        I have driven 100k miles cross country in my 2018 Model S since 2018 and have never encountered a down supercharger (and primarily supercharge vs charging at one of my homes). It’s why we only buy Teslas (despite the shenanigans). YMMV. My friend with a Bolt doesn’t road trip after how hard it was to get it from where he bought it near DC down to Central Florida.

        A plug in is a great compromise if you’re not ready to commit to a full EV and have range anxiety. The charging story will improve over time.

        https://supercharge.info/map

        https://www.plugshare.com/

        • droobles 2 years ago
          These maps seem to illuminate that I may have underestimated how much charging networks have grown, looks promising! Looks like at least most hotels offer some form of charging. Your anecdote about your friend though definitely drives home that range anxiety for me.
      • cbhl 2 years ago
        I live in the west so I won't comment on charging networks. However, I currently drive a PHEV, so leaving some thoughts more generally about things I learned when I started:

        - EVs are most energy efficient at slower speeds (varies by temperature, but in my experience, in the range of 30-45 mph) whereas ICEs are most efficient at highway speeds (65 mph). The energy consumption at different speeds varies enough that in-car range estimates can be off by a lot.

        - Some PHEVs can recharge the EV battery from the gas engine; others only can recharge the EV battery from being plugged in. Check before buying.

        - Using heating / A/C will reduce EV range noticeably. This is much more noticeable than ICE (where heating will reuse heat from the engine, and A/C is powered by the alternator).

        - The PHEVs I've seen don't support DC Fast Charging at all. You can only use L2 chargers or the provided (slower 110V) AC adapter.

        - For an EV, DC Fast Charging plugs tend to lock for "safety". A malfunctioning charger can leave you stranded.

        - Nobody seems to be selling new PHEV Sedans except Toyota (who released a new Prius Prime this year; not eligible for tax credit under new rules and its charger only goes 16A which is slow even for L2 but would be fine for overnight-charge-at-home-and-commute-to-work use). Honda and Hyundai discontinued PHEVs in 2021, 2022 respectively to focus on just selling EVs and ICEs.

        - The tax credit rules changed for cars put into service after April 18th, 2023. Cars must "meet critical mineral and battery component requirements". In particular, certain Teslas are eligible again, only certain PHEVs (currently no sedans) meet the new requirements. [0][1]

        [0] https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/credits-for-new-clean...

        [1] https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax2023.shtml

        • toast0 2 years ago
          > EVs are most energy efficient at slower speeds (varies by temperature, but in my experience, in the range of 30-45 mph) whereas ICEs are most efficient at highway speeds (65 mph). The energy consumption at different speeds varies enough that in-car range estimates can be off by a lot.

          IMHO, this is the best thing about a hybrid/phev. You can (and your car generally will) use what's best for the conditions and tends to run the ICE at high efficiency when it runs.

          > Some PHEVs can recharge the EV battery from the gas engine; others only can recharge the EV battery from being plugged in. Check before buying.

          There are several hybrid designs. The style that Toyota calls 'hybrid synergy' style is probably the best. The ICE is directly connected to motor one, the wheels are directly connected the larger motor two, and motor one and two are connected via a planetary gear. This allows for several paths for power to the wheels: the ice can power them alone through the gears, motor 1 can run as a generator and the electricity can power motor two which turns the wheels, and many combinations. Also, electricity from the battery can power one or both motors. This is also somstimes called eCVT, as the effective ratio between the ICE and the wheels depends on what the motors are doing. It's not exclusive to Toyota, Ford and FCA also use this arrangement in some if their hybrids.

          My PHEV has a pretty lame battery only range, but the highway range on a single tank is the best of any car that uses gas that I've driven while it also has the smallest tank. It's a 2013 though, and I think PHEV battery only range has incresed in the last decade? Personally, I'm a terrible person and only got a PHEV for the carpool stickers, but it's hard to get rid of it because the fuel costs are so low and it goes two years between oil changes at low usage. When I replace it, it will probably be for another PHEV that can act as a backup generator for my well (240v@30amps, some of the hybrid f-150s will do that, but I want my trucks to be single cab, and I'd rather a smaller truck too)

          • droobles 2 years ago
            I think this is a very balanced take. Your point on checking to see if the gas engine will charge the EV battery is really important to keep in mind and I'll make sure I do that.
          • chris222 2 years ago
            You could probably get away with a Tesla no matter where you live in the U.S.

            If you don’t like Teslas a PHEV makes a lot of sense. You will charge for most daily driving but still have the ability to road trip.

            CCS charging networks are not there yet.

            • popularonion 2 years ago
              I live in a flyover state, bought a Tesla in 2020. In my area they’ve added barely any new Superchargers at all since I bought the car.

              I’m sure it’s different in CA/TX/NY, but I’ve been really surprised at how stagnant the charging network has been. I would take a hard look at at the Supercharger network in your region as it exists today and assume that’s what exactly you’re going to have for the next 5 years. Don’t factor in future expansion.

              • breput 2 years ago
                It is disappointing to see Yet Another California location added, although the voting system[0] does seem to be filling in some big gaps in lower traffic areas, like Kalispell, MT.

                But yeah, there are huge gaps in the Dakotas, portions of Iowa, Kansas, and Missouri where one could not travel without some major planning or Supercharger alternatives.

                [0] https://www.tesla.com/supercharger-voting?v=2&bounds=81.6784...

              • brudgers 2 years ago
                A hybrid has no more range issues than a gas car.

                Electric?

                Depends on what one means by “road trip.”

                One thing if a road trip is about A to B on interstates, and you like to stop awhile every few hours because it’s on the itinerary.

                If a road trip is three digit state highways without much plan, that’s a different thing when it comes to electric vehicles.

                Though I can see how finding chargers might be part of the adventure.

                And I can see how finding chargers might bring up the subject of divorce.

                All depends on how and why and where you travel.

                Good luck.

                • CalChris 2 years ago
                  If you’re going to road trip in an EV you have to plan out your charging in advance. Luckily there are apps for that, PlugShare in particular. You should have adapters so that your car can charge at RV parks. Charging will force you to stop which is both good and bad. It’s better if you can stop at interesting places. Again that takes planning.
                  • simfree 2 years ago
                    Depends on the charging network your car has access to (CCS or Tesla), and how much pain your willing to put up with to charge (eg: is spending hours at a Level 2 6Kw charger acceptable?).

                    Perhaps another aspect to consider is whether you might go electric with one vehicle, and plug in hybrid with the other.

                    • reducesuffering 2 years ago
                      I can't speak on the Midwest charging network, but if you have any range-related concerns, I doubt you can go wrong with a '23 Toyota Prius Prime PHEV, getting 44 mile range on Electric-only and 550-600 mile range overall with 127 MPGe.
                      • yablak 2 years ago
                        Keep in mind the new prius is much smaller than the 22, which itself is smaller than previous year models. They're being delivered now. Sit in one before you decide. We've long driven priuses but decided against this year's models.
                        • droobles 2 years ago
                          Great point. Do you know how much the size compares to a Kia Soul? We love our Soul for it's utility and size in an urban setting but for obvious theft-related reasons we don't want to own it for too long. :)
                          • reducesuffering 2 years ago
                            Kia Soul:

                                Headroom (Front/Rear): 39.4 in.
    Shoulder Room (Front/Rear): 55.5 / 54.7 in.
    Hip Room(Front/Rear): 53.5 / 52.8 in.
    Legroom (Front/Rear): 41.1 / 38.8 in.
    Cargo Volume (Seats Upright): 24.2 cubic feet
    Cargo Volume (Seats Folded): 62 cubic feet
                            '23 Prius Prime:

                                Front head room: 38.0 in.
    Front shoulder room: 55.3 in.
    Front hip room: 54.7 in.
    Front leg room:  42.4 in.
    Cargo Volume (Seats Upright): 20.3 cubic feet
    Cargo Volume (Seats Folded): 26.7 cubic feet
                            I'm having a hard time believing the Kia Soul has so much more cargo space with the seats folded.

                            https://www.kiacerritos.com/2022-kia-soul-interior/

                            https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/prius-prime/2023/features-spe...

                      • local_crmdgeon 2 years ago
                        $15 bucks you live in KCMO.

                        If you are into Midwestern pride, I'd wait until Factory Zero opens and buy one of the GM electrics. Can't get more homegrown than Detroit, and by then the CCS chargers at Walmart will have opened.

                      • derekp7 2 years ago
                        What about getting whatever works for home base, and then renting a car for road trips?
                        • droobles 2 years ago
                          We did consider that, but we plan on taking enough enough weekend trips and trips to parents in rural areas that it may be too frequent to rent for each longer trip.
                        • ZeroGravitas 2 years ago
                          Are getting two new cars or trading both in against one new one?

                          If two then one EV and one PHEV might make sense as you could skimp on the battery a little.

                          • droobles 2 years ago
                            Trading in both to just get one, we've identified with our current driving habits we only need one car. I should've clarified that in the post, my bad.