What won me over: Rear window was easier to see through, the above mentioned Carplay/AA support, not a fan of Tesla's extreme minimalism extending to things like air vents, brand tainted by Musk.

While I have an EV6 (and my wife an ID.4), if I was on the market now, there's a ton of low-mileage Model 3 and Y out there, and the prices have come down significantly.

That's situation here in Cyprus, thus in spite of a lot of people with money willing to buy, only 0.8% of cars sold are electric vs ~20% in poorer countries that do have Tesla dealerships. Because when Tesla is there, everyone else tries hard to sell their electrics too.

This is not true, it's not 2017 anymore. Everyone is designing their EVs from "the ground up".

How is it that people can both think that Tesla will dominate because building EVs is simpler, but also that the legacy auto world can't figure out how to do it?

Most automakers have long since stopped basing their electric cars on platforms designed for ICE cars that have have EV components badly squeezed into whatever space they can 'find'.

They've been making platforms designed specifically to include EV drivetrain components for a while, and many have shifted to EV-specific platforms.

There's also literally nothing wrong with platform-sharing, by the way; it's more efficient use of design, manufacturing, and service/support networks. The "it must be PURELY designed from the GROUND UP to be a EV" is largely marketing who-haa that hasn't been relevant for a while.

The Ford Lightning? It's largely based off the F150. Who cares? It's still a brilliant car that has been selling like hotcakes and will convert a TON of good-ol-boy types to driving an electric vehicle.

But here's a list of cars with EV-specific platforms:

* Audi e-tron * BMW i-series * Chevy Bolt and Bolt EUV, as well as their entire Ultium platform of cars, which I believe includes the HUMMER) * Porsche Taycan * Ford Mach-E * Hyundai Ioniq 5 (and Kia equivalent) * Lucid Air * Rivian * Mercedes EQS * VW ID series * Polestar

I'm probably forgetting some?

All have things Tesla doesn't: an extensive dealer network for sales and service, a healthy parts distribution channel, the build quality and reliability people expect from such an expensive car, no worries about bullshit like being banned from getting parts because the company thinks your vehicle shouldn't be on the road, transmission/motor units that are properly sealed so they can be driven in heavy rain and through puddles without issue, windows that spontaneously shatter, their cars randomly braking on the highway, self-driving systems that like to slam into the back of emergency vehicles on the shoulder...

The one thing I absolutely hated about driving a Tesla was regenerative breaking. They should’ve made it optional.

I loved the Ford Mach-e GT.

Consumer Reports had it as the best EV for reliability.

    I've also driven my Nissan Leaf since 2013 with zero shop visits outside of tire shops.

Anecdote about a Nissan Leaf: I'll never forget being on holiday in Sri Lanka, walking through a tiny, countryside village. I was on my way to see a Buddhist temple. I was surprised to see an all-electric Nissan Leaf. It blew me away. I guess she is still driving it today!

One surprise finding was that a major part of the EV faults were due to the 12v lead acid battery that some EVs (like Tesla) are now shipping lithium replacements for.

https://insideevs.com/news/667690/tesla-model-3-reliability-...

How many miles/kilometers have you driven?

Toyota is first and foremost a car company. Top notch car, fifth-rate tech.

Which, honestly, can be said for lots of things.

Regarding cheap (-ish) EVs, you have Stelantis (Peugeot, Opel, Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Citroen, Chrysler). They sell a small hatchback, VW Polo sized, as an EV with, if memory serves well, a range of 300 km, for about 25k € in Germany. It is available as a Peugeot 208e, a Opel Corsa e and, more expensive and a cross-over SUV thingy, a Peugeot 2008e.

So it sure is possible. And a prime choice for a second car, in our case an EV for four, decent range and luggage space is simply out of budget for now. A smaller one, the classic second car, totally possible. But hey, you only replace cars if you have to, and now that is the big one. So no EV yet...

We recently decided to use for a 2000+ mile road trip instead of using our ICE minivan, and I was blown away with how well the Tesla did as a long road trip vehicle.

We had no range anxiety because of the Super Charger network, and stopping to charge for 45 minutes after driving for 3 hours was far more enjoyable than anticipated.

Where it really did well was also surprising. Have you ever been going up a slight grade on a long highway stretch and find yourself needing to pass a slower vehicle? Most cars I've owned, when already going 65+, take a bit of time to pass a truck going up a hill. Even my 400HP+ modified Subaru STI takes its time as it needs to build turbo pressure and RPMs before it'll get fast enough to comfortably pass up hill.

The Model 3 doesn't even know there's a hill. It'll go from 60 to 120 as fast as it goes from 0-60 like the hill doesn't exist. Fully loaded with 4 adults and their stuff too.

Combine the raw power the car has with the climate control, good sound, full glass roof, ample cargo space and legroom, and it's the best car I've ever used on a long trip, no question. It's just not sub-$40k (at least for most people - I bought mine for $35k from a family member).

They’re pretty reasonably priced here in the UK.

We never have charging issues, and we've gone to rural Saskatchewan, tourist Quebec and all parts in between. The trans-Canada has great supercharger coverage, rural Saskatchewan has welders you can unplug and tourist Quebec has chargers at the hotels.

I bet our battery lasts longer than yours. 99% of driving is local, we plug in at 50% and charge to 80%, which is a lot easier on a big battery like ours than the small battery you have. Even on road trips it basically stays between 20 and 80.

Unfortunately for VW, they are trying to cash in on the "cool" factor and nostalgia for the vintages buses and the vehicle is outrageously expensive. For $60k, I don't features in addition to gimmicks and the backseat is pretty tight. Not to mention the interior tech and controls for this first generation of VW ev's is comically bad.

I've been wondering how many others are frustrated like I am.

I've hit the 10 year mark on my current ICE vehicle, and I sorta assumed EVs would be a lot more common and cheaper now. Even the small vehicles are being sold for luxury prices, and the 7-seaters (which I'm looking at) are priced in the high-end-yesteryear-sports-car tier.

I'm seriously considering just buying a Tahoe or Telluride and waiting another 10 years for an EV.

I.e. where people would buy a lot more utility cars before, they now buy more expensive bigger cars even if they don't need them. Those buying bigger cars are now buying SUVs.

Dacia ate the market of economy cars of FIAT, SEAT, and Pegeot, while those tried to move up market.

That's also why Dacia has the Duster ("SUV for poors") in their line up.

And who wants to buy a used Tesla (or any EV) even if the price was competitive?

The range degrades with the battery and replacing it costs more than the car is worth.

That's the trick, people living in apartments are not supposed to own and operate their own cars going forward.

As a live in an apartment myself I wasn't aware of that fact at the beginning, I kept asking myself: "how am I supposed to charge my car if I'm living on the 8th floor?". Turns out I was looking at the whole thing through the wrong lenses.

What's really perverse about it (there's no better word to describe it) is that us, people living in apartments, do currently have a smaller carbon footprint compared to people living in actual houses, and yet we are the ones being punished as a result of measures which are meant to improve our global carbon footprint. So the solution for me, if I'd still want to own a personal car, would be to increase my carbon footprint by moving to an actual house on the ground, preferably in suburbia because cheaper (where there's also no proper public transportation to speak of).

Intuitively, I guess most people would certainly be fine charging once a week for half an hour when going out (restaurant, shopping or else), given the average distance driven per week.

Provided Tesla can deliver spare parts, which they frequently can't for months, which is a story in itself (hint: having to support x iterations may work for SW, but not for cars that are on the road for 10+ years)

I change my tires every 20,000-25,000 kms

for me it means every 3 years

my car runs on LPG, which is half the price of gas

Never ever done any particular kind of maintenance in over 10 years.

You can buy 6-7 brand new "my cars" with the money spent on a Tesla.

Yes, it's a cheap car, I chose it exactly because it's cheap and robust, I use it in a city, I park it on the road, there's no need for a >45k car, I would argue it's borderline stupid to buy a very expensive EV to drive it in a city.

EVs are expensive by default, their TCO might be lower in perfect ideal scenarios, until you run into an issue, most of the cost is due the complexity, non-EV cars are much much much dumber and simpler.

You can't independently fix an EV, there's no way.

What people really need to do is the actual calculation, instead of saying things like "the Tesla will make it up over its lifespan". Will it, really?

The difference between a model Y and Corolla is, what, $10k-15k? That is a huge difference to make up. Most of the maintenance requirements a ICE has are required by an EV, too (less oil changes). Parts are way more expensive on the Tesla than the Toyota.

Oh, and do you think that governments are going to just let EVs operate on subsidized electricity forever? No, they will directly tax it in the future. Meanwhile, gasoline prices could decrease over time as the world transitions to greener sources. After all, have to pump the oil (increase supply) while it has value.

TL;DR People who buy a Tesla to "save money" are likely in for a shock.

But yeah, Tesla’s interior build quality is not really comparable with other luxury cars.

Nobody wants to sell electric cars for cheap, why throw away the margins you can get by selling them for more?

I don’t see a great opportunity for them to lower costs more on a cheaper model. Tesla already went through the exercise of making the cheaper version and people are paying premium prices for it anyway.

if there were, Corolla would outsell Tesla Y by a large margin.

People willing to drop that on a "repair" would probably rather buy upmarket instead. Which leaves a lot of older EVs driving around with potentially really poor ranges and clogging up charger networks.

We will have to see how it plays out. But they are lower maintenance.

When tesla owners say "sporty" they mean acceleration. Yes Teslas have mad acceleration. Not disputing that. But thats not a sporty drive. If anything thats more what you would get from a muscle car, which offers pure torque at the cost of basically everything else, which is what Tesla offers. Tesla isn't a sports car, it is a muscle car trapped in a sports car body.

Drive a Porsche, or Mercedes (C or S classes, the A classes are a joke), or BMW. These give you a sports drive. Smooth suspension, finely tuned transmission shifts, snappy steering, etc. These traits make up sporty drives. While power plays a component in that, it's not pure torque.

I realize that Tesla doesn't have a transmission before someone spits that out to me. But look at the electric Porsches and BMWs who mimick a transmission range to give you that, it isn't just a linear line like a Tesla. That's the difference between a mechanical drive and an emotional one. This is also why neither of these company's current offerings can beat out Tesla in 0-60 time. They could come close or beat it if they wanted to, but their clientele isn't looking for that, they want a traditional shift and acceleration so they offer that instead.

That said car enthusiast types were never Tesla's target market post-Roadster and they've excelled at building a product the public likes for other reasons as you've mentioned.

Disclosure: Early TSLA investor, no current exposure

Or my wife's Audi where the black coating on all the interior plastic scrunched up and peeled off. And that same car had a CVT transmission with so many failures Audi actually paid off repairs via a class action lawsuit (I got a check for around $4k! first and only time a class action actually benefitted me and not the lawyers). Oh and the defective Bosch ignition coils that caused misfires.

For what it is worth my Model Y (Dec 21) doesn't have odd panel gaps or other problems. It has extremely minimal maintenance requirements. I don't care about the price of gas or even electricity because my solar panels charge it for free. And it is fun to drive.

Not everyone will like the ride, the features, or whatever else... but they are selling every single one that rolls off the fully-booked production line.

Hi! I'm an actual Tesla owner. My Model X is approaching 3 years old.

It is the worst car I have ever owned. Almost everything that can break on it, has broken. I would care much less if Tesla would actually try to fix it when you take it in for service (as mine has been for a total of weeks), instead they lie and say things like "that's normal" when it clearly isn't.

I hate the car, I hate the service experience, and now, for a fun bonus extra, I hate Elon.

I will never buy another Tesla.

- "Electric vehicles are less reliable than gas cars, according to a survey of UK drivers." [1]

- "Kia was the most reliable EV maker in the study, while Tesla was the least reliable." [1]

- "Consumer Reports Still Ranks Tesla Reliability 27th Out Of 28" [2]

- "The Model Y still has body hardware issues with the tailgate and door alignment, paint defects, and multiple other problems." [2]

[1]: https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-least-reliable-ev-bran...

[2]: https://insideevs.com/news/549130/consumerreports-tesla-reli...

Until your AC fails in your s/x outside of warranty, or you get unlucky enough to have your Y's heat pump fall apart like thousands of people in cold climates have over the last few years. Both repairs are $5000+ and seem to happen much faster than similar issues in conventional vehicles with belt driven AC compressors.

Tesla are an amazing company, that made EVs mainstream, but I'm never going to buy one. They don't know what the word "privacy" means.

> don't want the unreliability of a German luxury car or a Tesla

became

> don't want the unreliability of a German luxury car, or a Tesla

since the addition of the article "a" seemed to change the meaning. had it been

> don't want the unreliability of a German luxury car or Tesla

it would have conveyed even different meaning to me.

I'm kind of curious what the GP's post actually meant at this point.

Maybe EVs will be longer lasting and lower maintenence on average in the long run, but we won't really know until the average EV age catches up with ICE cars.

Tesla's in particular are inordinately dependent on a single company for parts and repairs. That increases the risk of being able to easily maintain an older car in the future.

Not all of them, obviously, but enough.

I've noticed that with taxis. In my city, taxi drivers have a reputation for driving like arseholes. I thought this too, but I started paying more attention and I realised that the vast majority of taxi drivers were driving entirely unremarkably. Before when I saw something which confirmed a prejudice, I thought it was more evidence in favour of that prejudice; now I realise that it was the Texas sharpshooter fallacy all along.

It seems to be true for just about every prejudice I've ever been told about. BMW drivers use their indicators just as often as anyone else. Owners of cheap Toyotas are just as likely to drive unreasonably fast as owners of high powered sports cars.

This is different from the Tesla drivers who think that their acceleration always lets them cut in front of people.

If I see a Range Rover, Mercedes, Audi, BMW or any large pick-up in my rear view mirror I expect to be aggressively tailgated and I'm generally correct. This has not happened to me with a Tesla, that I can recall.

As a result you have production lines that were reasonably well suited for demand pre-covid, now having to deal with everyone stocking up on way more parts than they need because they don't want to deal with shortages again.

Dealerships make half their money from the service department. EV's require very little service. So they don't want to sell and EV, and it shows.

Go to a Ford dealer and try to buy a Mustang Mach-E and they'll try really hard to convince you to buy an ICE Mustang.

The worst dealership experience I ever had was when I was buying my first car back in 2003. I was 21 at the time, and I just wanted something reliable and efficient that I could carry friends in. I told sales people that it must have 4 doors, A/C, and under $10K. And one of them tries to sell me a Pontiac Sunfire convertible for $12K. I re-iterated what I was looking for. Reliable, efficient, 4-door, A/C, under $10K. He showed me an $13K Mustang. I thanked him for wasting my time and left.

Tesla makes is so damn easy. I had a similar experience as your friend. I spent 30 seconds minutes choosing the configuration (Model 3 Performance, blue, no FSD, black interior), filled out the online credit application, and a week later, picked up the car from the service center downtown. The delivery experience was just as simple. Just had to sign some final delivery paperwork and some DMV paperwork that was already printed and just needed a quick scan and signature. Less than 5 minutes, and the car was mine. I was blown away how fast it was. I literally said to the guy there, "That's it? The car is mine and I can drive away now?". I was incredulous.

Dealerships could easily make the experience this easy if they wanted, but no, they want to play games with you to fuck you over.

Because I don't think that's entirely true...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV

Well they'd just be even more dominate if they sold a fully EV corolla without all the "tech" BS every Tesla comes with.

You say that in a country where three at least $40k+ full size pickups are the best selling models.

So Tesla is strong, but they are not crushing the market.

BMW group sold 588,138 units in 2023 and most weren't EV.

So engine imploded and he waited months for a part that was on a ship somewhere - they eventually bought the car back from him.

Needless to say I never bought a French car.

I've ridden in a BYD EV taxi before back in 2016, I haven't lived in China since then. It was OK. BYD should have a larger market share than Tesla in China, it would be weird otherwise.