Visa-free travel to Europe for U.S. citizens to end in 2024,requiring ETIAS form

104 points by drubio 1 year ago | 140 comments
  • bananapub 1 year ago
    summary:

    1. it's still "visa-free", but increasingly countries are making that shit by requiring an "electronic travel authority" which is not technically a visa but is a bit of imaginary paper you get in exchange for money (e.g. Australia and the US)

    2. the US already requires EU citizens to do this exact fucking thing to enter the US: https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/

    3. the US refused to even grant visa free access at all to some EU citizens (those from Romania and Bulgaria): https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/eu-visa-reciprocity-wi...

    it is unfortunate that ~2003 may end up being a high point for ease of travel for citizens of rich countries

    • TechBro8615 1 year ago
      2003? How about pre-1920 when passports weren't even required to enter a country?
      • rconti 1 year ago
        I'll trade a slightly slower border crossing for faster trains and airplanes.
        • bluGill 1 year ago
          Most trains today actually run slower than their 1920 version on the same track. We invented high speed rail in the 1960s which of course goes much faster, but most trains are not high speed and most operators of regular lines (including subways) have slowed the trains down.
          • TechBro8615 1 year ago
            Fair enough. There is a certain romance to crossing the atlantic by ship, though. That's been on my bucket list for a while - IIRC a ticket is on the order of $1-2k for a weeklong journey from UK to US.
        • kyriakos 1 year ago
          3. And Cyprus. Visiting US requires an embassy appointment for interview that costs 120USD or more now. Takes up to 2 weeks so quick trips are out of the question.
          • chrisco255 1 year ago
            You'd want to go back to early 2001, as the BS and red tape ramped up dramatically after 9/11.
            • soderfoo 1 year ago
              I'm nostalgic for the pre-9/11 flying experience well except for one thing: anyone being allowed to wait at the gate.

              Imagine the mad house if friends and family could accompany a traveler to the gate, or wait for their loved one to arrive?

            • pkaye 1 year ago
              > the US refused to even grant visa free access at all to some EU citizens (those from Romania and Bulgaria)

              Are Romania and Bulgaria part of the Schengen Area?

              • filoleg 1 year ago
                Nope, they are not, but they are bound to eventually join as they are obligated to by their Treaties of Accession[0].

                Seems like the grandparent comment just didn't bother checking their facts first and jumped the gun on blaming the US for this, while the US doesn't really have anything to do with it.

                0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area

                • kyriakos 1 year ago
                  It's not actually a schengen issue

                  https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/fr/MEMO_1...

                  Technically any country of which citizens are allowed visa free entry to eu should reciprocate. Of course this is doesn't seem to apply in practice.

                  • pkaye 1 year ago
                    To be added into the visa waiver program, there are a couple criteria that countries need to meet. Things like reporting lost or stolen passports through INTERPOL. Or accepting repatriation of their citizens that are ordered to be removed from the US.

                    https://www.dhs.gov/visa-waiver-program

                    I think last I heard Romania meets all requirements except that B visa refusal rates which is still >3%. I think once Romania is added to Schengen Area the refusal rate should drop a lot since many of those individuals can have an easier time moving to other Schengen Area countries for economic reasons.

                    • 1 year ago
                      • bananapub 1 year ago
                        it's not just a schengen issue, the EU has decided it's a fairness issue and doesn't want some citizens being treated worse than others.
                      • nikolay 1 year ago
                        No, thanks to us being second-class EU members.
                      • dheera 1 year ago
                        The annoying thing is when you want to visit the EU accidentally.

                        Like if you're in Switzerland and you just feel like hopping on a train to Italy on a whim. You used to be able to do that, now you need a pre-approval I suppose.

                        • raverbashing 1 year ago
                          They're both in Schengen, so you just do that
                          • dheera 1 year ago
                            US passports don't need Shenanigan visa for Switzerland.

                            The weird thing is that all the bordering countries need a pre-approval now but not Switzerland itself.

                          • regularjack 1 year ago
                            Like if you're in Mexico and you just feel like hoping on a train to the US on a whim.
                            • mrguyorama 1 year ago
                              Unironically the US should be pushing very very hard to be best buds with Mexico and help it become a stable state that does a lot of our manufacturing. Want to make illegal immigration less of a problem? Help Mexico become a country you want to live in.
                              • dheera 1 year ago
                                If there were trains I'd totally do that. I absolutely love living on border regions and spending weekends in another country where it's possible and cheap.
                            • sgt 1 year ago
                              I have used ESTA. Very simple and worked great for me. And the fee is like 3-4 coffees. Not bad.
                              • arrrg 1 year ago
                                Felt effortless to me, too, but I would still call it a visa.

                                As instructed on the website we didn’t print anything out, so we just brought our passports and immigration was completely without any problems in Miami. Our passports also weren’t stamped as seems to be common now.

                                When we got into an immigration check near White Sands national park (closed road and checkpoint next to the road) the guards checking us were nightly confused that our passports weren’t stamped and we didn’t have a visa or any kind of printed documentation. And we were confused that we needed any of that?

                                One guard went to check on us with his computer, I guess, and everything seems to have checked out. So we didn’t need anything after all, it just seems that when you get into an immigration check those checking you might prefer to not go check with a computer, so printed documentation of some kind can get you going faster. (The guard also told me that we should have printed out documentation that we paid for ESTA?! Which seems confusing to me since presumably if we didn’t have paid we wouldn’t have been let in.)

                                • sgt 1 year ago
                                  Oh yeah, I guess (like with many systems) there are tons of edge cases and pit falls one can fall into. I recall my plane ticket having a completely different middle name than my passport, and TSA actually asked me about that. Got real worried for a second. This was back in 2014 entering the US via Atlanta.
                                  • tim333 1 year ago
                                    Normal visas tend to involve far more bs and expense than ESTAs.
                                  • dzhiurgis 1 year ago
                                    Yes it is sort of simple. But you need to be aware of it, remember it, fill it in time (some processing can take 2 weeks), carry reference number.

                                    I'm somewhat organised, but didn't really knew I need for for AU. Filled while checking in, but got it 8 minutes after gates closed.

                                    Edit: kinda feel should be integrated with flight booking. The amount of bureaucracy, esp. during covid era, travelling across many countries, with a big party - it's maddening.

                                    • bananapub 1 year ago
                                      I was not suggesting it was complicated or expensive, just that it is in almost all ways effectively a visa, including that people may be denied for no particular reason (though they can then attempt to get a US visa).
                                  • Daviey 1 year ago
                                    Calling it a Visa is hyperbole, even the linked article suggests it is more like a US style ESTA, which the US has forced on us since 2008 (which is only compatible with visa waiver programme).

                                    The thing that makes me truly sad, as a UK citizen, I will also need this to travel to Europe since Brexit. It isn't a US-centric requirement, which the headline suggests.

                                    • xgl5k 1 year ago
                                      Yeah it doesn't seem directed at the US. It applies to 60 countries, including Singapore, which is currently the world's best passport.
                                      • londgine 1 year ago
                                        it's a document that needs to be prepared ahead of time, costs money, and can be denied. what is your definition of a visa if not this?
                                        • justnotworthit 1 year ago
                                          To add to your point: Aren't there countries that have "online visas" for short stays (I'm thinking central asia and I hear russia has done the same) that are equal to this "not-a-visa"? Do people think visa by definition requires an in person meeting?
                                          • filleduchaos 1 year ago
                                            That...doesn't define a visa at all? Like that straight-up describes such a wide range of documents as to be completely useless as a definition.
                                          • reaperducer 1 year ago
                                            It isn't a US-centric requirement, which the headline suggests.

                                            I don't think it's surprising that a radio network that serves Americans and is paid for by Americans in part with American taxes should tailor its story for an American audience.

                                            Do you also complain that the BBC is too British?

                                            • Daviey 1 year ago
                                              You've picked on a single part of my comment, which was more as an informational part to clarify that the headline doesn't tell the whole story. At no point did I make it a complaint.
                                            • throwawaymobule 1 year ago
                                              You can still fly over to Ireland, and even live there. :)

                                              Would take you about five years to get naturalised though.

                                            • world2vec 1 year ago
                                              As an EU citizen I need to apply for an ESTA to travel into US. They get my fingerprints and a photograph besides a scan of my password when applying to said ESTA. Seems it's only fair US citizens get the same treatment? Alas, I'd prefer a much easier entry system for both sides. Aren't we all supposed to be friendly allies?
                                              • User23 1 year ago
                                                The general custom in international relations is tit for tat on this kind of thing. Hopefully the EU signals they will be happy to drop or simplify the requirements if the USA agrees to as well.
                                                • 1 year ago
                                                • cmrdporcupine 1 year ago
                                                  Unfortunately, while as a Canadian I am sympathetic to your point about the obnoxiousness of US passport / border entry controls... it's not just a symmetrical tit-for-tat, as the EU has also imposed this stuff on Canadians.

                                                  In the past a passport was sufficient on both ends, as far as I understand it. Now Canadians will have to do this same thing.

                                                  • bloppe 1 year ago
                                                    It's funny how everyone framed this as US vs. EU. It really didn't have to be framed that way.
                                                    • fatfingerd 1 year ago
                                                      The US launched the first violation of visa free travel agreements, which the EU had to accept but could not have done first.

                                                      Given a world where they would have had to back down on US/Canada, it would have been a diplomatic disaster to go through and try to justify why they are not going to back down with the other countries.

                                                    • Scoundreller 1 year ago
                                                      Canada has required its own eTA garbage for EU citizens since late 2016 or so.

                                                      But only when flying commercial.

                                                      • m_t 1 year ago
                                                        Europeans also have to apply for an electronic thing to go to Canada.
                                                        • akvadrako 1 year ago
                                                          It was only recently that Americans could visit Canada without a passport. It's amazing how every country has clamped down.
                                                          • cmrdporcupine 1 year ago
                                                            That was a post-9/11 thing, and came from the US side as I recall. Used to be able to enter with just a driver's license. Then you could only do that at the land border. Then it was passport only.

                                                            And at each point the volume of hostile tone from US homeland security guards has increased. It can be quite stressful crossing at times and I generally avoid it, even though I'm only 45 minutes from the border.

                                                            • Scoundreller 1 year ago
                                                              Americans can still visit Canada without a passport by land as long as they can satisfy proof of citizenship.

                                                              It’s technically the US that requires Americans to have a US passport to re-enter USA. Not sure what they do, can’t refuse a US citizen entry into USA but I guess they could give you a hard time.

                                                          • glimshe 1 year ago
                                                            Reciprocal/fair treatment makes sense from a moral perspective, but businesses actually don't like it. Every little added burden reduces the number of tourists.

                                                            The US, given its popularity as a destination, believes that people will deal with it. It has always been like that, traveling to the US from anywhere is generally annoying. Not sure how American tourists will feel about this friction, even if fair in theory.

                                                            • sremani 1 year ago
                                                              >> Aren't we all supposed to be friendly allies?

                                                              We are allies -- but it is not a symmetric alliance.

                                                              • TwoCent 1 year ago
                                                                DeGaulle's observation that "nations do not have friends, only interests" comes to mind.
                                                              • chrisweekly 1 year ago
                                                                "scan of my password" you meant "passport", right?
                                                              • nikolay 1 year ago
                                                                It's not fair in the context of American exceptionalism.
                                                                • tim333 1 year ago
                                                                  I have to say my last trip to the US (Austin this spring) in spite of the ESTA thing was the easiest ever. I didn't even have to fill a paper form or answer dumb questions - just fingerprints and in.

                                                                  You used to have to fill out in writing if you'd ever been affiliated to a communist party or done, drugs, where are you staying, how long, and be interrogated. I almost got deported a couple of times for saying I hadn't figured which hotel or how long I was staying.

                                                                • rconti 1 year ago
                                                                  Reminds me of when I showed up at SFO for my 2nd business trip to Australia, about 90mins before the flight. I had been unable to check in online (united's site gave me an unhelpful error) but I didn't think too much of it.

                                                                  The kiosk at the airport also balked.

                                                                  When I went to talk to a human, he casually asked me if I had a visa/ETA. This totally perplexed me as I didn't remember having to do anything in the past. He told me I'd just need to fill out a web form and "they usually approve it within an hour".

                                                                  Minor panic while I tried to fill out a complicated web form on my iphone at the airport with shaking hands. Ultimately it was approved within about 20 minutes and I had no issues with my flight. Lesson learned! I guess on my previous trip I used my company's travel portal and it must have done the ETA for me automagically, so I never had any awareness I needed such a thing.

                                                                  • supernova87a 1 year ago
                                                                    One lesson I learned the hard way (somewhat related to last minute panic at the airport) is: don't try to update/change something in your online check in process that has working, before a critical check-in time, because it can always be fixed at the airport.

                                                                    Several years ago I got a new passport, and thought to use that to check in online for an intl flight. The app had my old passport and would have worked fine, but puked on scanning the new passport, and suddenly I was not / could not be checked in.

                                                                    I started going to the airport, to arrive at my usual 1 hr before, but got delayed by traffic. Only by miracle of begging supervisor to reopen check in did they allow me to do it.

                                                                    I should've just went with the old passport in the record that worked, and changed it out at the gate/checkin counter when at the airport.

                                                                    • mattlondon 1 year ago
                                                                      90 minutes before the international flight? Without checking in before you arrive?!

                                                                      Lesson learnt I hope!

                                                                      Even priority security often takes that long (or longer!) discounting every over queue you have to stand in at an airport.

                                                                      • rconti 1 year ago
                                                                        Nope, I spend as little time in the airport as possible. For domestic (US) flights, I target arriving ~30mins before boarding begins if not checking a bag. I typically find security takes around 5 minutes (TSA Pre-Check). I typically fly out of SFO although of course at least half my flights are coming home so I'm flying out of some other random airport. When things are REALLY bad, it's 15 minutes, which still leaves me 15 minutes with nothing to do. And that's before boarding begins. There is still around 30-45 minutes before the gate close, of additional buffer time.

                                                                        I typically fly United and have their lowest tier frequent flier thing (silver), which means I get priority access baggage check for when I am checking a bag (go to kiosk, scan boarding pass, tag bag, drop at baggage drop). But even without that, you sometimes wait 5 minutes for a computer to print your bag tag.

                                                                        For international flights, of course, it's more. Usually 1h+ before boarding begins.

                                                                        Amusingly, my 3 worst experience were when I arrived super early and still barely made my flight. One was an Uber driver from Valparaiso Chile to the Santiago airport, who could NOT find where to drop me off, and I was trying to guide him, but I didn't know any Spanish. No joke, we drove around the runway multiple times.

                                                                        2 others were on the same trip and both in Germany. Berlin Brandenberg, arrived exactly 2 hours before departure as EasyJet told me to do (counters do not open until 2h before). Bag drop took all of 2 minutes, and then I stood in a security line for at LEAST 1h20mins. Absolutely pants-on-head-insane. Other one was flying out of Frankfurt, opted to splurge on a taxi instead of public transit because I was excited to begin my journey home. Arrived at least 2 hours before the flight. Stood in a Lufthansa bag check line for well over an hour, it went absolutely nowhere. Panicked, found baggage check to have moved to another terminal for international flights (the adjacent bag check windows across the hallway were closed for construction) .. checked bags quickly, and still ended up having to navigate MULTIPLE lines for security that appeared to be correct but were so long (hundreds of meters) that they curved past other signage directing me to other places. What an ordeal.

                                                                      • Tommstein 1 year ago
                                                                        A few years ago, I went on a vacation intending to visit Panama and Costa Rica. After a few days in Panama, I decided to go to Ecuador for a few days before Costa Rica. When I got to the airport in Ecuador to check in for my flight to Costa Rica, I was asked for my yellow fever vaccination certificate. "My what?" Turns out that if you spend even one day in Ecuador, you need a yellow fever vaccination certificate to go to Costa Rica.

                                                                        And that's how I got stranded in Ecuador for the rest of the vacation . . . .

                                                                        • zwieback 1 year ago
                                                                          I was sweating just reading this!
                                                                        • drubio 1 year ago
                                                                          The timing on this is suspect. With all the Airbnb travel and remote work dynamics, it seems like its an effort to clamp down on tax loopholes.

                                                                          It's splitting hairs not calling this a 'visa'. If you have to pay a fee and fill out forms before arrival IT IS intended to regulate foreign entry, which is the definition of a visa, since you're exchanging information with immigration authorities before they let you in.

                                                                          • cowl 1 year ago
                                                                            This has been under discussion for a lot of time and negotiating with US to remove their Electronic registration system. Europeans are tired of this asymetric treatment and EU can not postpone this anymore. It's tit for tat with the excuse of security.
                                                                            • rhaway84773 1 year ago
                                                                              This. It’s basically tit for tat by the EU.

                                                                              Its also great timing for them with the massive uptick in tourism they’re seeing

                                                                              • stanac 1 year ago
                                                                                It's not that simple. Same regulations affect citizens of Balkan counties who don't need visa at the moment.
                                                                              • jayflux 1 year ago
                                                                                This has been in discussion for like 10 years, long before brexit and the pandemic even. It’s just only coming to fruition now.
                                                                                • raverbashing 1 year ago
                                                                                  This was discussed and planned pre-pandemic, this was even delayed due to the pandemic

                                                                                  Whatever definition you'd like to use for it applies to ESTA as well

                                                                                  • dukeyukey 1 year ago
                                                                                    And the ESTA absolutely is a visa. I hate this double-standard of _saying_ you've got visa-free travel, you just gotta fill out this form with all your details so we can decide whether or not you've got permission to visit.
                                                                                • injb 1 year ago
                                                                                  The title is a lie and the content of the article is hyberbolic. When the new requirement comes in it'll be the same as it is now for people who visit the US visa-free. The US has had this for years and Canada also has it for non-US citizens.
                                                                                  • Scoundreller 1 year ago
                                                                                    Canada’s (and previously the USA’s) mental gymnastics was that it was only required for air travel. You can still drive to Canada without an eTA and get entry. You used to be able to drive to USA without an ESTA (for non-Canadians), but USA is even now (or soon to be…) requiring it at land borders.

                                                                                    Sounds more and more like a visa.

                                                                                  • jjgreen 1 year ago
                                                                                    There will be fingerprint and face scans on arrival too.
                                                                                    • bsimpson 1 year ago
                                                                                      I'm a frequent traveler, but I've avoided Global Entry as a minor form of protest. The government doesn't need and shouldn't have my biometrics.

                                                                                      I've been reconsidering my position lately, as I've traveled places where biometric registration is compulsory, and the US surely has some deal in place to scoop up all that data.

                                                                                      • TechBro8615 1 year ago
                                                                                        They already have your facial biometrics. And if you've had to apply for a visa to another country, you might have been required to submit your fingerprints, which you do through a facility in your home country (so both countries end up with the biometrics).
                                                                                        • lbotos 1 year ago
                                                                                          I fly often. 2 flights ago coming home to the US the border patrol flagged me into “pilot/flight attendant lane” as it was open.

                                                                                          I walked up and within 1 second of getting to the US border agent he said “hello Mr.botos, passport please.”

                                                                                          I’m here on hacker news so I’m both not surprised at the speed of technology but it’s jarring.

                                                                                          He knew who I was before I could even read his name badge. I don’t have global entry, but I do have precheck.

                                                                                          • bsimpson 1 year ago
                                                                                            I have neither and I was admitted through SFO based solely on facial recognition. My passport never left my pocket.

                                                                                            Was exactly the feeling you're describing: whoa that was cool, but holy shit the ramifications are potentially terrifying.

                                                                                          • elteto 1 year ago
                                                                                            If you are a naturalized US citizen the government has your biometrics already, you can't become a citizen without giving them up.

                                                                                            If you are a natural born citizen and have a passport the government has your picture. If not, there's the one in your driver's license. If not, a Google/Facebook search might dig one up.

                                                                                            So if you don't have a passport, or DL, or social media presence at all then I agree, don't sign up for Global Entry. But otherwise...

                                                                                            • chrisco255 1 year ago
                                                                                              No you're not. All that's required to be a naturalized US citizen is to be physically born in the U.S. Or to be born to U.S. citizen parents. They also do not do biometrics for driver's licenses. A bad, 4 year old driver license photo from the local dmv is quite different than having an international database containing irrevocable details about your physiology.

                                                                                              Among many lessons in history are the degree to which such details have been abused by those in power.

                                                                                        • EduardoBautista 1 year ago
                                                                                          Title should be updated to match the article.

                                                                                          A travel authorization is not a visa, visa free travel for US citizens will remain.

                                                                                          • anigbrowl 1 year ago
                                                                                            A travel authorization is not a visa

                                                                                            OF course it is, it's just a very accessible temporary one. Let's look at an uncontroversial definition of a visa (from Wikipedia): 'A visa is a conditional authorization granted by a polity to a foreigner that allows them to enter, remain within, or leave its territory.'

                                                                                            Just because you give things different labels doesn't make them actually different.

                                                                                            • EduardoBautista 1 year ago
                                                                                              Well, then the USA doesn't issue any visas in this case.

                                                                                              Because the only thing that my US tourist visa allows me to do is to show up and ask politely to enter the country.

                                                                                              A US visa also does not give you permission to remain within the country, an I-94 does.

                                                                                              • anigbrowl 1 year ago
                                                                                                I don't see the point of such extreme pedantry. Even the State Department uses 'visa' as a generic term. There are also other countries besides the US, and whichever one you come from probably also uses 'visa' as a generic term on their English-language websites.
                                                                                            • mahkeiro 1 year ago
                                                                                              What is the real difference between the 2? One is manual while the other one is highly automated? Given the number of question on an ESTA application, visa to other countries are a piece of cake (and I don’t even talk about visa on arrival).

                                                                                              This is just a semantic trick to make people that there is still a visa free travel but this is no more the case.

                                                                                              • Scoundreller 1 year ago
                                                                                                Not just a semantic trick, but a legal one. A lot of euro countries have treaties with US, Canada, etc. for mutual visa-free travel that pre-date EU.

                                                                                                Soooo, they just create something that walks and talks like a visa without calling it one because the treaties never bothered to define what a visa is or isn’t.

                                                                                                • EduardoBautista 1 year ago
                                                                                                  > walks and talks like a visa

                                                                                                  The requirements for the travel authorizations to Canada, the EU, and the USA are not comparable to an actual visa application. Visas are more expensive, more privacy invasive, and you have to go to an embassy/consulate to get it.

                                                                                                  All these travel authorizations are really doing is telling the governments "Hey, I am coming over".

                                                                                              • 1 year ago
                                                                                              • quartz 1 year ago
                                                                                                > At the heart of ETIAS is an electronic database system to better track who's coming and going.

                                                                                                Lots of people online annoyed at having to pay a fee (7 euro) to travel but this is what it's actually about.

                                                                                                Curious to know if EU governments are limited in what they can currently do with passport entry/exit data and if this expansion allows them to do more?

                                                                                                • Scoundreller 1 year ago
                                                                                                  I should be exempt from the fee part (EU spouse), but I’m still annoyed by it because my country (Canada) signed treaties with several EU countries granting visa-free travel.

                                                                                                  https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/c06...

                                                                                                  I’m kinda confused by the whole “entry-exit” aspect because I thought my passport was scanned in and out of the Schengen already.

                                                                                                • Scoundreller 1 year ago
                                                                                                  Anywho, for anyone with some EU ancestors, see if you’re eligible to apply for citizenship (or get it recognized if you technically already are one).

                                                                                                  ETIAS announcements pushed me to start that process and now doing the waiting game.

                                                                                                  • cudgy 1 year ago
                                                                                                    “And the pandemic is another one of the many reasons this new requirement has been delayed by decades — there was no need for ETIAS when countries closed their borders to all travel amid fears of spreading COVID-19.”

                                                                                                    Decades? The pandemic is only a few years old. I guess the writer had to shoehorn the pandemic into their piece somehow.

                                                                                                    • xgl5k 1 year ago
                                                                                                      Misleading title, ETIAS is not a visa and it not directed at Americans as it applies to 60 countries including Canada, UK, Australia, Singapore, and South Korea.
                                                                                                      • djohnston 1 year ago
                                                                                                        If I’m living in the UK i guess I’m still required until I get my passport? That’s sad, ez travelling to Europe was a big draw for moving.
                                                                                                        • cinntaile 1 year ago
                                                                                                          As long as it's the same when US citizens go to Europe I'm cool with this. If not, they should make it so.
                                                                                                          • mixmastamyk 1 year ago
                                                                                                            After being forced to submit face and fingerprints in Asia this summer, and no clue where the data went. I’m thinking my traveling days are over. A shame as travel has been beneficial.
                                                                                                            • rconti 1 year ago
                                                                                                              This reminds me of a motorcycle forum I was on where some guy was outraged Canada wouldn't let him bring in his handgun while on his roadtrip, and while everyone tried to provide helpful suggestions of where he could safely secure it before crossing the border (and pick it up again on his return to the US), he instead was fixated on how obviously Canada didn't want his tourist dollars and didn't respect his freedom.
                                                                                                              • chrisco255 1 year ago
                                                                                                                Well it's quite different isn't it, because you can't leave your retinas or fingerprints behind, these are irrevocable details about your personhood. These details could be abused by a foreign or domestic government and could also be leaked in any number of ways or used to target individuals.
                                                                                                                • mixmastamyk 1 year ago
                                                                                                                  Obtuse non-sequitur. No one is talking about traveling with a gun. Chrisco already explains why.

                                                                                                                  Countries can make whatever restrictions they like; we don’t have to support them. That’s the power of choice. Has nothing to do with entitlement.

                                                                                                                  • Klonoar 1 year ago
                                                                                                                    It’s not an obtuse non-sequitur, they’re just pointing out how ridiculous the parent comments stance is.

                                                                                                                    Travel has a lot to offer in terms of experience and it sounds like they already submitted the data points, may as well continue. Individual protest won’t solve it here, this would take significant changes in governments to ever pull off.

                                                                                                                    • rconti 1 year ago
                                                                                                                      I think Chrisco does a great job of explaining why they are not at all on the same level (a possession versus something that is an innate part of you) but it's also not an obtuse non-sequitur. You cannot revoke your fingerprints or face scan; on the other hand, it's also probably already too late, especially as the parent pointed out they had already submitted to this in one location. And no doubt your facial scan data can be collected surreptitiously anyway.
                                                                                                                  • kredd 1 year ago
                                                                                                                    Face and/or fingerprints have been a requirement in in every developed country (including US) since at least 2012. Might be even earlier than that, that's just the clearest memory of myself going through the immigration in Europe. It's a tiny bit different when you're citizen of the country you're entering into, but that's just details.

                                                                                                                    At this point, I live with the expectation that my biometrics are available for sale in some 3rd party data broker, and try to live with having that kind of threat model in my mind. Something something, adapt and survive.

                                                                                                                    • mixmastamyk 1 year ago
                                                                                                                      Not fingerprints or live facial recognition between trusting countries, no. It’s rather new.

                                                                                                                      I’m also taking about a tourism, not immigration.

                                                                                                                      • kredd 1 year ago
                                                                                                                        You go through "customs and immigration control", that's what I was referring to, apologies. Whether you're a tourist or not, you still go through the same process. Live facial recognition is not new. I know at least in Canada, since my close friend used to work for CBSA and used to tell stories back in 2014, and assuming other countries are more advanced than us.

                                                                                                                        Fingerprinting surely was a thing when you travelled by air into the US for the first time. If i'm not mistaken, after that, they scan your passport to see if they already have the data, and don't ask for it again.

                                                                                                                        Also, if you ever had to apply for non-tourism visas, or visas for countries that require in person visits, they will absolutely take your fingerprints during document collection. I don't think servers of those countries are secure or sophisticated, so either you limit your life and live in the woods, or accept your biometrics are floating around through brokers.

                                                                                                                      • Scoundreller 1 year ago
                                                                                                                        The sane thing to do would be to discount fingerprint evidence in any judicial (and other) proceeding.

                                                                                                                        It just doesn’t mean much when everyone has a copy of everyone else’s.

                                                                                                                        • anigbrowl 1 year ago
                                                                                                                          First, everyone does not have a copy of everyone else's, second it's pretty difficult to fake someone else's fingerprints. Honestly, a lot of tech people just do no seem to live in the real world. Please, take this on as a challenge and try to swap your fingerprints with those of a friend and see if you can fool a forensic technician. The experience will be well worth the small cost of hiring an expert for a few hours.
                                                                                                                      • Thoeu388 1 year ago
                                                                                                                        I was forced to give private medical information while visiting restaurant. War for privacy was lost long time ago.
                                                                                                                        • 1 year ago
                                                                                                                          • ciabattabread 1 year ago
                                                                                                                            You mean a COVID proof-of-vaccination?
                                                                                                                            • Scoundreller 1 year ago
                                                                                                                              No, their deadly allergy to peanuts ;)