Mark Spitznagel says the ‘greatest credit bubble in human history’ is set to pop
57 points by cpp_frog 1 year ago | 59 comments- madballster 1 year agoSpitznagel runs a fund that specializes on so-called "tail-risk events", i.e. he profits from extremely unlikely economic scenarios such as hyperinflation or violent economic crashes. He profits more the more assets he has under management, because he charges his clients a performance fee of probably around 20% of profits. So part of his job is to constantly find new investors by telling them that the worst economic crisis is just around the corner. And how he he just happens ot have the right solution.
- atoav 1 year agoCoincidentally his name is German for "pointy nail" so I am not surprised he likes to pop bubbles. /s
- mseepgood 1 year agoHis name means "Dirk Müller" in German.
- davidktr 1 year agoI understood that reference.
To add some content: Dirk Müller is a German doom prophet who some day, eventually, will have predicted it all along.
- DirkMullerTA069 1 year ago[flagged]
- davidktr 1 year ago
- mseepgood 1 year ago
- go_prodev 1 year agoIf his fee is based on profits, he needs to be correct some of the time. The types of events you mentioned aren't all hype and he can't will them into existence, so maybe he's on to something?
- NoboruWataya 1 year agoNo idea about his specific fund's pricing but the "traditional" pricing model for hedge funds is 2 and 20, ie, 2% of assets under management plus 20% of profits.
But also, a performance fee is kind of like an option in that it has an asymmetrical payoff - if you make 100 in profit, you get 20, but if you lose 100, you don't have to pay 20. All other things being equal, the expected value of a performance fee will increase with portfolio size as long as there is a chance you are right (and there is always a chance you are right).
Yes, the predicted events will have to come to pass eventually to collect on the performance fee. Nobody (not even this guy) knows when that will happen, but everyone knows that it will happen eventually, and in the meantime, you can position yourself so as to maximise the payoff when they do.
- virgildotcodes 1 year agoI believe most hedge funds also charge a fee on total assets under management regardless of profitability, so he’d be profiting just by luring in new customers, profits not necessary.
- criley2 1 year ago>If his fee is based on profits, he needs to be correct some of the time. The types of events you mentioned aren't all hype and he can't will them into existence, so maybe he's on to somethin
So all he's doing is timing the market. That's it. And here's the thing: it's impossible. Statistically, he and everyone else are on average bad at it. For example, over the past year he and many folk have predicted recessions, depression, stagflation and even collapse. And here in the US they've been entirely wrong. And if you invested according to them then you lost a lot of money.
The reason why this is a bad investment is because the opportunity cost of what you could be doing with your money during all the time that he's wrong up until he's right. And then you have to hope that when he's right, it makes up for all the time he was wrong. Statistically, it's unlikely.
Your best bet is to make the best investment you can that pays today, not a bet on a payday that could happen tomorrow... Time in the market beats timing the market.
- NoboruWataya 1 year ago
- atoav 1 year ago
- speeder 1 year agoA lot of people are criticizing the article without reading it, so some points of the article in short term:
1. Yes, Mark is a hedge fund manager.
2. Yes, his fund is specialized in profiting from crashes.
3. But his advice is actually sound and not an ad for his fund.
3a. He said the excessive debt will make government expenses with the debt itself become too high eventually, forcing the government to stop spending and causing recession.
3b. He said that although his fund does profit from crashes, it is something hard to do consistently and expensive, retail investors should just try to profit.
3c. He said Warren Buffet advice that is good, for example buy a cheap index, and then invest more into the index whenever there is a crash, but never let your money on hand get low enough so you would be forced to sell during the crash.
4. The article was written because the author asked Mark for advice about what to do to prepare for a eventual future crash. Mark was chosen because his specialty in profiting from crashes.
5. The headline while true might mislead people, yes Mark said the bubble is set to pop, he didn't said it will pop soon, in fact he said it will pop "Eventually" and he has no idea when it will pop. And this is why he thinks copying his strategy is useless unless if you are retail investor.
- em500 1 year ago> 5. The headline while true might mislead people, yes Mark said the bubble is set to pop, he didn't said it will pop soon, in fact he said it will pop "Eventually" and he has no idea when it will pop. And this is why he thinks copying his strategy is useless unless if you are retail investor.
Professional prognosticators know that for predictions about future events, you should either be specific about the event but vague about the timing, or the other way around. That way you'll often be right and be hailed as a prophet. If you predict something specific to happen at a specific time, you'll usually be wrong and look like a fool.
- oezi 1 year agoThe question is if it is true that retail investors can't guard against stockmarket downturns or if that is the point of the article to make them believe this because the hedge strategies wouldn't work without enough sheep.
- mdekkers 1 year agoThank you for the great summary
- em500 1 year ago
- neilwilson 1 year ago“Spitznagel believes the rising interest expense on federal government debts will ultimately constrain fiscal spending, slow economic growth”
Yet if I give you $100 and you spend it that will create extra transactions and extra tax. Therefore increased interest payments are just the same as mailing a stimulus cheque to those who already have money.
More transactions = more growth not less.
We can of course change the distribution. Pass legislation requiring base rates to be set to zero permanently. [0]
Government debt rates will then automatically fall to Japanese levels. As Japan demonstrates.
[0]: https://theconversation.com/interest-rates-the-case-for-cutt...
- surprisetalk 1 year agoThank you. I found your article very thought-provoking.
> Suppose I own a forest that regenerates at 2% per year and is worth £1 million in timber overall. I could log the forest sustainably, cutting down trees only in line with the speed of regeneration, which would earn me £20,000 a year.
> But with interest rates at 5.25%, I would do better to cut down everything, invest my £1 million into bonds, and earn upwards of £52,500 in annual interest (I say upwards because the rate of interest on bonds is usually a little way above the central bank base rate).
- Fredkin 1 year agoI found the article very unsettling and seems to be advocating bigger government, financial repression, and authoritarian control of what people spend their money on:
"This [CBDCs] could enable central banks to encourage or discourage certain spending in more targeted ways, for example by restricting what can be spent by people in certain areas or income brackets."
There's also an argument that higher rates are better for the environment. They are a headwind to rampant consumption. They decrease investment in areas that might not generate a return, focusing resources on existing viable businesses instead of new unproven businesses that are likely to fail (wasted energy).
The forest example is very reductive and completely ignores other costs and factors: the expected price of timber and machinery in the future, and the inflation rate in general, the cost of re-planting the forest, wages, the convexity risk of the bonds (if rates appear to be accelerating higher, your bonds will drop in value), the confidence in the government, ... and so on. It also doesn't consider that higher rates curb construction loans, and thus decrease excessive demand for timber, which results in a pile up of timber inventories initially. Businesses then react by doing less logging in future.
Zero rates (or more accurately artificially low rates) encourage gambling and waste. If I can get a cheap loan, I can go buy loads of machinery and land and start logging, whereas I wouldn't have bothered if the financing wasn't available. Financial repression in China for instance allows for the cheap financing that builds enormous ghost cities. All that sand-dredging they do emits huge amounts of CO2.
- neilwilson 1 year agoThe natural rate of interest at base is zero because money is costless to produce.
Rates above zero at base are artificial. They should be determined in the market for money via competition - not by wonks in ivory towers
This idea that rich people need to be given free money from government has no justification. There isn’t a fixed amount of money. Nobody is fighting for it.
You can only get a cheap loan if you have collateral for it. Therefore you are doing nothing more than spending your existing assets via a liquidity loan. That’s how an economy rapidly develops and why ours are better off than those where interest and lending is frowned upon
- neilwilson 1 year ago
- Fredkin 1 year ago
- somenameforme 1 year agoThe way the US government raises money is by selling treasuries with interest. Give me $100 now and I'll give you $105 in a year type stuff. Those rates are determined by market mechanics. If you set the rates to $0, nobody would buy them, and the government would be unable to raise money. The Fed rate is something else, the rate banks pay to each other for [generally] brief lending.
As for Japan, I find their name pops up oddly frequently in economic discussions. I suspect many of us still have an image of them from a time when we were growing up and their economy was booming - predicted by some to imminently surpass even the US. Here [1] is a graph of its GDP including and since then. They been in a state somewhere between decay and stagnation for nearly 3 decades now.
[1] - https://www.statista.com/statistics/263578/gross-domestic-pr...
- neilwilson 1 year agoThe US government has no need to sell Treasuries at all. It already has the best bond in the world. The US dollar.
Lots of people want that. Particularly those with tax bills to pay in dollars.
Why repeat the myth?
- neilwilson 1 year ago
- surprisetalk 1 year ago
- belter 1 year agoThings you need to look at:
"...After the March payday, its flagship Black Swan fund has produced a mean annual return on invested capital of 76%* since the firm was created in 2008. It’s a good result, but if you were going to make the same calculation as of Dec. 31 2019, the long-term compounded return would only be marginally better than that of the S&P 500 over the same time period..." - https://www.forbes.com/sites/antoinegara/2020/04/13/how-a-go...
Also the way they report performance is singularly unique:
"Why One Firm's 3,612% Return Is Drawing the Ire of Hedge Funds" - https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/why-one-firm-s-3-612-return-is-d...
The only question you need to ask Universa Investments is: "Did you create other hedge fund portfolios...That could possibly have similar returns out of your expertise...BUT...did not? And did you win down those after a few months or 1-2 years, before reporting on the performance of the surviving one?"
The trick above, is directly from "Fooled by Randomness" by Taleb, who is listed as “distinguished scientific adviser” by the fund.
- JPLeRouzic 1 year ago> "And did you win down those after a few months or 1-2 years, before reporting on the performance of the surviving one?"
My employer (one of the bigger French corporations) from 2005 to 2010 released each year their financial reports showing a 5% revenue gain over the previous year, which was a good performance at the time. Then a few months later, they revised their turnover and reduced it by 5%.
Apparently it was legal, and anyway no one ever commented.
When the next CEO arrived, the turnover in 2011 was reduced by 10% without explanation and again no one commented!
- JPLeRouzic 1 year ago
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 1 year agoFact or fiction: Someone once told me that the only black swans are found in New Zealand and before people from around the world started travelling there, for the rest of the world, there was no such thing as a black swan. If this is true, then it would seem the term "black swan" has been given a new meaning, namely a "rare" event, as opposed to some thing that people had not yet witnessed. Surely, this is fiction and Taleb is an expert on swans.
- regularfry 1 year agoAustralia, but yes, this is fact. They weren't known outside Australia before 1697.
And you're right about the term: a true "black swan" event is one that is so unpredictable from the prior history that it's just not included in models of the future. It's not just "rare".
- anothernewdude 1 year agoBlack swans are Australian. New Zealand has blue ducks, but not for long.
- hathchip 1 year agoTaleb explains this in his eponymous book.
- ehnto 1 year agoMaybe I am missing the joke, but there are Black Swans outside of NZ.
- regularfry 1 year ago
- unnouinceput 1 year agoThe original story is here:
https://fortune.com/2023/08/05/black-swan-hedge-fund-mark-sp...
Yahoo simply took it over. I avoid yahoo like plague.
- j16sdiz 1 year agoYahoo paid for them, not "simply took it over"
- j16sdiz 1 year ago
- 1 year ago
- H8crilA 1 year agoDoom prophecies aside, I do think that some deflation protection in the form of US 10 year bonds (or longer, if you have the stomach for it) may be a wise idea. The 10 year yield hasn't been this high since before 2008, offering a decent upside should we get back to the low rate regime. Although of course if this is a 1960s or even 1970s replay then these bonds will cheapen to single digit cents on the dollar.
Chart for reference - always good to keep in mind the big picture: https://www.macrotrends.net/2016/10-year-treasury-bond-rate-...
- slushh 1 year agoIt's only a bubble if there is no value to back it up. Is the housing market going to crash or are consumers going to be unemployed to the point that they cannot pay back the household dept?
Otherwise, I like to believe that rising dept ratios only reflect that the people who know how to invest profitably are not the people who currently have money.
With AI at the horizon, is a value of 2 high for the Buffet indicator? If only big companies have the resources to train NN, who but those traded companies is going to capture the entire GDP?
- gchokov 1 year agoAll of the doomsayers are once in a while right..
- PartiallyTyped 1 year agoBears predicted 21 of the last 3 recessions; and if you tail a car for 500 miles you will give it a ticket.
- thih9 1 year agoBut does it happen in a statistically significant way?
- H8crilA 1 year ago2s-10s is remarkably accurate for predicting recessions. For returns over 10 years or so CAPE is quite good, stocks/(stocks+bonds+cash) is very good.
But you cannot make statistical claims about such numbers, the calculations are done over the entire very small population (if you want to abuse the maths a bit and call a time series a population), not over a sample.
- H8crilA 1 year ago
- ProjectArcturis 1 year agoThere is very little difference between being early and being wrong.
- PartiallyTyped 1 year ago
- andrewstuart 1 year agoDoes Mark Spitbznagel run a hedge fund, perchance?
It’s never a surprise to hear bad news from people who make money from bad news.
- SideburnsOfDoom 1 year ago> Does Mark Spitbznagel run a hedge fund
Well yes, it's in the actual title of the article.
- andrewstuart 1 year agoI wrote the comment before I clicked on the link.
- SideburnsOfDoom 1 year ago> I wrote the comment before I clicked on the link.
yes, and it shows. This is an example of why it's generally a bad idea.
- SideburnsOfDoom 1 year ago
- andrewstuart 1 year ago
- yieldcrv 1 year agoor a gold bug, who gives bad news but never makes money from any macroeconomic environment
- SideburnsOfDoom 1 year ago
- __Joker 1 year agoEconmics noob here.
Leaving aside the Ad Hominem that Spitznagel is hedge fund manager who might benefit from the said event.
I can only gather two main points in the argument.
1. Level of debt is at unprecedented levels ( private, public, global)
2. Kind of follows from 1, Government(FED) has very high annual debt servicing.
How we go from 1&2 to popping the credit bubble ?
- janejeon 1 year agoRight, I'm wondering that as well, because one could argue that 1 & 2 is a necessary condition but not an automatic trigger. Something needs to actually cause the crash, and it's not always obvious that just because there is a bubble, there will be a trigger, hence the saying: "Markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."
- nprateem 1 year agoIt's not that 1 causes 2. It's people loading up on cheap debt, and only being able to service it at cheap levels. Interest rates rise, then suddenly people start selling investments and holding back on discretionary spending to pay their (now higher) mortgage costs etc.
So far people are eating into savings or getting pay rises, but as businesses are in the same boat they can't keep paying staff more and raising prices forever.
So at some point the wheels fall off as people and companies need to repay their once cheap debts, or else are just left with very little disposable income/capital with which to operate, reducing spending. This causes a recession.
The government being in the same boat reduces the money available for government spending too.
- bradleyjg 1 year agoThe real issue is the potential for positive feedback cycles.
E.g.
The government spends more money on the latest bipartisan bread and circuses bill, treasury rates increase as buyers demand more to hold ever increasing amounts of debt, private interest rates follow treasury rates up,
some private borrowers are unable to service their debts at the higher rates and declare bankruptcy, private sector interest rates increase as perceived default risk goes up
some private borrowers are unable to service their debts at the higher rates and declare bankruptcy, private sector interest rates increase as perceived default risk goes up
Etc.
The last time this looked like it was going to happen the Fed stepped in and bought “fallen angel” private sector bonds. This was an extraordinary intervention. They’ll probably try again next time it starts to happen.
But they may just be building up a bigger crisis. Since the start of the “extraordinary measures” era in the early oughts they’ve never had to worry about inflation as a countervailing consideration. Now they do.
- datavirtue 1 year agoThey don't HAVE to worry about it.
- datavirtue 1 year ago
- MichaelMoser123 1 year ago> How we go from 1&2 to popping the credit bubble ?
People used to think, that a dramatic crash could only occur on condition of an extraordinary event. Think of country X loosing a major war + inability to pay the accrued bills.
Well, then came the subprime mortgage crisis, so now we know that we really don't know. Mr. Spitznagel is either a crackpot (most likely scenario) or he is in the know.
- datavirtue 1 year agoFacts are facts though, corporations frenzy on cheap loans...and they did/are. Stock buyback trends in aggregate make me nervous. Perhaps we should only allow fixed or capped interest rates but that would limit borrowing to fiat sources and probably exacerbate the issue.
- datavirtue 1 year ago
- janejeon 1 year ago
- NovaDudely 1 year agoI have heard this every month for the last decade.
- ReptileMan 1 year agoWhat is his track record so far with being right?
- MrYellowP 1 year ago[flagged]
- ant6n 1 year agoYou don’t talk about the content, or the person of the article talking about the content. Instead you talk about the the people here commenting on the person in the article commenting on the comment.
That’s more removed.
- MrYellowP 1 year agoThe guy who points out that something's off is the bad guy. Right.
Thanks for confirming me in regards to my thoughts about the people commenting.
You're not even thinking this through. These people have been exposed to so much doom-saying, they've lost their ability to actually see it coming despite evidence being right out there.
If pointing that out makes me the "bad guy", then I rather be the "bad guy" who loses useless internet points, than being the guy on your end of the equation, because how it's going to end for all the ignorant morons in here is rather predictable:
Badly.
That being said ... I'll dismiss myself from this pool of ignorance. Enjoy what's coming for you.
Here's my "I told you so!" in advance.
Soon enough you'll choke on it.
- MrYellowP 1 year ago
- ant6n 1 year ago
- malikNF 1 year agoTo the folk who dismiss this as “just another hedge fund manager who stand to win if everyone fails”
Why do you think this event or any other kind of big economic downturn is unlikely to happen?
- csallen 1 year agoI mean you're essentially asking why people think a rare event is rare.
- andrewstuart 1 year agoI used to believe it but after 30 years it just sounds boy who cried wolf.
Also, inflation kills debt.
- karatinversion 1 year agoBase rates.
- csallen 1 year ago