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Ask HN: What's your seniority, location and notice period?

18 points by nickkell 1 year ago | 68 comments

Just been given a new job contract with a 6 (six!) month notice period for a senior developer role in Germany. Is this unusual even for Germany?

endymi0n 1 year ago
Long but not unheard of here.
The dirty secret is that it mostly works in your favor: Nobody can really force you to work at full motivation and capacity, so most of the time you just cut a mutually beneficial deal when leaving and do it anyway (in a shorter time). The other way around, it means a whopping 6 months of severance.
- nickkell 1 year ago
  As I point out in another comment, this happened to me previously and they were loath to compromise. I'm therefore very reluctant to depend on an Aufhebungsvertrag.
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37480726
uf00lme 1 year ago
6 months is a way to lock people into a role. People with a 6 month notice periods, generally need to resign if they are unhappy with their pay or the role and then only look for new roles nearer the 3 month mark. The job market can change pretty drastically in 6 months, so be sure to factor that into your thinking. If possible use your probationary period to exit the role early if you think it won't work out.
I've never heard of 6 months for senior development roles in Aus/Uk/Ireland, it is mostly lead, staff or principal roles that have longer notice peroids. It can also be tagged onto a relocation package if they are sponsoring you and/or paying for your relocation.
- anakaine 1 year ago
  In Australia, at least, the courts have and will continue to strike down such abusive behaviour by companies.
  Non compete agreements, for example, are completely unenforceable. I pointed this out to a former employer who presented me with one. The CEO who was a Business/Law graduate acknowledged the fact and withdrew the requirement to sign.
  - dav43 1 year ago
    Having spoken recently to a Barrister in Australia who has represented in such cases - he has yet to see a judge support these contracts or non-competes. The basis theory is you can stop someone earning a living and restrict their liberty to provide for family/self.
    - uf00lme 1 year ago
      Notice in general is a bit of a farce, my guess is well over >95% of cases companies don’t care if you don’t work your notice. In that they won’t go after you legally if you just plain quit, similar situations with NDAs. Unless you know extremely commercially sensitive information then most companies are just happy to see someone go when they choose to move on. Otherwise they’ll put you on gardening leave to see out your notice.
  - quickthrower2 1 year ago
    Seen someone CTOish level with 3 or maybe 6 months contract get terminated. Guess what happens: garden leave. (Australia).
    - uf00lme 1 year ago
      It doesn’t even need to be C level executives, anyone with information seen to be commercially sensitive gets put on gardening leave if something big is going down.
leosarev 1 year ago
I'm engineering director in Russia. Our labor laws guarantee all permanent employees right to leave after two week notice. Notice could be cancelled by employee at any time during two weeks period. Notice could be made by employee even while employee is on vacation/sick leave, so if you on bad terms with your employer, you could take a vacation, submit notice and leave without transitional period at all.
Only exception for that rules is temporary contract (i.e. for a year). If you have temporary contract, you can't leave without reason. But labor law strictly limits grounds for making contract temporary: basically you have to prove that job itself is temporary (related to concrete project or you filling in for maternity leave etc).
softwaredoug 1 year ago
Isn’t such a long notice period a huge problem for the employer? Like they’re going to have a disengaged employee taking up space and salary for a long time
nrp 1 year ago
The lone American awake right now checking in. This thread is a bit of culture shock for me. In the US, most states are at-will, meaning there is no required notice period, but two weeks is the cultural norm unless you are a fairly senior executive in a mid to large company. My other reference point is Taiwan, where contracts typically specify a one month notice period. In either country, six months (or even three as noted in most comments here) would be considered extremely unusual, and possibly illegal(?).
- ralferoo 1 year ago
  In the UK, the rules for statutory notice period are a bit complicated. If you've been working somewhere for less than 2 years, the company has to give you at least a week's notice. If you've been working more than 2 years, it has to give you at least a week's notice for every complete year worked, up to a maximum of 12 weeks. Legally, to resign you only need to give one week's notice.
  In practice, most permanent jobs with fixed hours have a notice period of 1 month, and 3 months if you're somewhat senior (i.e. not junior rather than very senior). Typically, 3 months is normal until you get very senior, and then you may (rarely) see 6 months, but instead people are normally retained by offering large bonuses that get forfeited on resignation.
  If you have a contract that gives you a longer notice period than the statutory minimums (which almost everyone does), then normally the notice period is the same on both sides. If you agree this in your contract, then the longer notice an employee has to give is increased from the 1 week. I suspect this is why almost every company has a contract that specifies 1 or 3 months, because it reduces the company's risk that employees will suddenly disappear and that's more important than the cost of paying someone a bit longer if you've decided to let them go.
- mpsprd 1 year ago
  In Canada its the same. I lived in France for a while and it was 2 months, it was quite the shock.
formerly_proven 1 year ago
§ 622 BGB prescribes asymmetric notice periods for a reason. Six months is excessive especially at the start of employment.
- hkwerf 1 year ago
  Every employment contract in Germany I've ever seen explicitly removes the asymmetry, extending the notice period for the employee to the notice period for the employer.
edent 1 year ago
In the UK even at a fairly low level of seniority a 3 month notice period is common.
But... This usually means that you have a reciprocal notice period if they want to get rid of you.
And... If you decide to not work your notice, you might get sued for the excess cost of hiring your replacement at short notice. TBH, I've seen it threatened but never followed through. You'll burn your bridges with that company / team, but that's about it.
As with many contractual clauses, this is something for you to negotiate over. If everyone in your industry is on a similar notice period, you aren't at a disadvantage. If you think it is excessive, ask to shorten it or for more compensation. Or take the risk.
- toyg 1 year ago
  > If you decide to not work your notice, you might get sued
  In practice, if requested, HR will typically agree to shortening it by offsetting accrued vacation time, since it saves money to the company. If separation is contentious, there is also a good chance that the company will just put one on "gardening leave" - i.e. "we'll keep paying you but don't bother coming to the office".
  Notice is typically not sued over because a judge might consider it unreasonably vexatious towards the employee, and most people are happy to just take the money and/or free vacation time anyway. Unlike non-competes, it's actually considered in employment legislation.
petesergeant 1 year ago
Six months is far too long for a senior developer. I had a company in the UK try and get me to sign six months as the CTO with a decent sized team a few years ago, and even then they weren't surprised when I laughed it off and we settled on 3 months.
- nickkell 1 year ago
  An engineering manager at a previous company here in Germany told me, after I complained about my 3 month notice, that his former role as a CTO had a 12 month notice.
  - ralferoo 1 year ago
    That just shows that his negotiating skills aren't as good as yours! :D
    - nickkell 1 year ago
      Or that his compensation was very good...unlike mine
nickkell 1 year ago
I'd like to add that at a previous company a 3 month notice period was forced on me after a merger with a different company meant us signing new contracts to bring us in line with the generally worse conditions offered to employees of the other company.
Although I had a very good relationship with the company and line managers they initially refused my offer to compromise to let me go after 2 months (purely because they wanted an extra month of work out of me). It was only after I made it clear how disinterested I was in working the extra month that we all agreed it was for the best to let me go early. This left a very sour taste in my mouth.
Roxxik 1 year ago
I think it is a little unusual, but nothing unheard of.
I started as a junior IT Consultant in Hamburg, Germany with a 3 month notice, but could only quit every half year. So for quitting at the end of june I had to give notice in march, and then the next opportunity was september for quitting at the end of december.
But since I'm going back to university now, we made a "Aufhebungsvertrag" so that I quit at the end of september. You have no right to it, but I have a good relation to my employer so they accepted.
EDITED for clarity
- ralferoo 1 year ago
  "with a 3 month notice, but could only quit every half year"
  I know little about German law, but this sounds insane. I also certainly wouldn't call it 3 months notice, I'd call it 3-9 months notice.
  The real question is whether the company could only fire you at these two times of the year as well, or whether it only had to give 3 months notice. If the latter, you might find the courts agree that the contract is unfair if you took it to a tribunal.
b800h 1 year ago
Notice periods have been getting longer and longer. When I was younger, one month's notice was largely standard in the UK. As time has progressed, I noticed first very professional roles in Law and Accounting moving to three months, followed by other sectors. For the first time this year, I've spotted six-month notices popping up in different places.
Honestly, I think the government need to step in, as a six-month notice period seems like a restriction of liberty to me.
- toyg 1 year ago
  I suspect that, if challenged, a judge would equate reasonable notice periods with the minimum-severance terms set in law, at least for employment that lasted only a few years. So the 6-months clauses you see are probably a bit like noncompetes: everybody knows they are not enforceable, but companies still enjoy the chilling effect they produce.
fabianholzer 1 year ago
Germany as well: I have 3 month to the end of the month (there are btw also clauses which say to the end of the quarter, which makes them less flexible).
Six month is absolutely not unheard of, although I personally would be reluctant to accept the latter condition. I mean, the clauses are two-way, so they bind your employer as well and protect you from a sudden loss of income, but frankly, I think the benefit to these arrangement are a bit asymmetric.
- anakaine 1 year ago
  The appropriate thing to do is to point out the asymmetry and push back on the 6 month terms. In Germany if the standard is a 3 month notice period, then that is what you push back to.
  - fabianholzer 1 year ago
    The standard in Germany is put down in the civil code (Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch) as four weeks to the 15th or the end of a month. That means when you have a working contract which doesn't specify explicitly something else, it automatically applies as put down in the BGB. Still, it is perfectly legal (and also not unusual) to have longer periods. Anyway, it is still a market economy and contracts are negotiated between (in legal theory at least) two equal parties.
  - AdamN 1 year ago
    6 months also means that would be the severance if laid off.
tumetab1 1 year ago
Six months is way to high. I think you're being compared to someone with director level responsibilities or someone has been in the company for more than 15 years.
https://www.eurofound.europa.eu/observatories/emcc/erm/legis...
- gabereiser 1 year ago
  Even at that level, six months is generous. Three months, tops to ensure transition. One month is all that is required. It really depends on the status of the current work threads.
  - ralferoo 1 year ago
    Haha, yeah. Everywhere I've ever worked and resigned from, all but one have been 3 months notice. Even after raising with the issue of knowledge transfer with them early on, usually it gets ignored until the last 2 weeks and then there's a massive panic because there isn't enough time.
    - gabereiser 1 year ago
      Best solution if you're D+ level is to assist in finding your replacement, train them and introduce them to the team before your departure. Be strategic about it. More importantly, be empathetic to those who granted you the authority to lead them, your team(s), and make sure they are in good hands. Don't abandon them. Make sure loose ends are either tied or handed off to capable hands.
furyg3 1 year ago
Product Manager at a small tech nonprofit (yes), Amsterdam, 1 month notice period from employee to employer.
I have a 'permanent' contract so my employer cannot give me notice without permission from a judge (for example, by insolvency), but the gentleman's agreement is that if they asked me to leave they would continue to employ me until I found another job and provide a small severance (~1 month).
globalise83 1 year ago
That means that once you've successfully done your probation period, you are guaranteed six months of salary whatever happens (except for bankruptcy of the company or dismissal for gross misconduct, which are v. unlikely), with a possibility that you could negotiate a reduction in notice period, or be sent on gardening leave, in the event you find a new job. Not a bad situation to be in.
lexa1979 1 year ago
Belgium - 13 years in the position, simple IT Tech: I have to give 13 weeks notice if I quit. I'm allowed to take a (paid) day off each of those week to look for a new job. If my employer fires me, he has a 42 weeks notice to give me, I'm of course also allowed to take the day off every week to look for a job.
dotdi 1 year ago
Worked in Germany for 6+ years. 3 months is pretty standard for engineering roles. I've frequently seen managers and other employees with higher responsibility having a 6 month notice period, although people are encouraged to resign, i.e. start interviewing, when things don't work out.
ausaus 1 year ago
Not unusual for Germany at all. I had six months notice from the end of a quarter at my previous company.
- nickkell 1 year ago
  How difficult did it make finding a new job?
  I mentioned it to a recruiter I'm dealing with and she agreed that it would significantly complicate the search.
  - ausaus 1 year ago
    Wasn't a problem for me as it seemed to be normal for my role and location. Recruiters that I spoke to didn't say it was a problem.
hkchad 1 year ago
I traded a 6mo notice for removal of non compete, figured it was a good trade for both parties. This is a CxO position. I know they are mostly unenforceable but the next company might not want to even get involved if it were in my current contract.
littlestymaar 1 year ago
In France the notice period is usually 3 months, except during the probation period (which can last up to 8 months) where the notice is just two days (for the employee, the employer's notice grows as the probation period advances, up to 6 weeks long).
sarabande 1 year ago
[This is not legal advice]
Not a good sign. Most DE-based eng contracts max at 3 months, or the default per § 622 BGB.
6 months likely means the company fails to retain good staff. Negotiate for asymmetric § 622 BGB notice for yourself, and 3 months notice from the company.
- spi 1 year ago
  I've worked in two companies in Germany and, unless I'm wrong, both of them had 6 months periods for Senior position. At least the second one has no problem retaining good staff.
  As several others mention here, this is mostly on paper only. In both companies I've seen people leaving with any amount of notice, between 1 and 6 months. You just asked your manager and, if you have decent relationship, you'd get an okay. If you didn't, there's really no reason for them to keep you doing nothing (which, at that point, is almost a given). The only real risk is if you have a really bad manager who wants to "punish" you for leaving, even if this is at detriment of everybody involved.
  At least if the company from the OP is a very large one, I wouldn't assume it to be a red flag, but rather bet on the company having an overdeveloped bureaucracy department, who created central contracts who-knows-why and won't change them even though the practice is always different.
Clubber 1 year ago
The US legally is zero notice, but it's pretty standard to give 2 weeks. I would hope that if they require 6 months that they would also be required to pay for that 6 months even if they decide to fire you immediately.
- sys_64738 1 year ago
  You don't need to quit in the USA. You can simply stop going to that job and start working elsewhere.
toyg 1 year ago
6 months is unusual in the UK. For the first two years it's not really enforceable anyway, since employers can dismiss you with 2 weeks of notice at any time - so an employee can effectively do the same.
- ralferoo 1 year ago
  Not true - if you have a contract with a notice period, this is valid from the start except for a specified probation period. This is normally anywhere ranging from 1 month to 6 months. I've got a friend working in Hong Kong who had 12 months probation, which I'd never heard of before. In my experience, probation has usually been 1 or 2 months. It sounds like you have experience of a weirdly long probation period.
  The thing about two years is for the statutory minimum notice period, which would be a week for the first 2 years, and a week per complete year worked after that up to a maximum of 12 weeks. However, if you agree to a contract specifying longer a notice period, that takes precedence.
ofrzeta 1 year ago
I think it's unusual. Three months maybe. Never heard of someone with six month notice period. Source: based in Germany, own experience and conducting job interviews.
schnebbau 1 year ago
What happens if you just leave with no notice? They sue you?
- formerly_proven 1 year ago
  The same thing that happens when you breach any other contract.
  - toyg 1 year ago
    Employment contracts are not like "any other contract". Most European countries will have specific legislation covering workers' rights, which will typically supersede contractual clauses in case of contention.
    - hkwerf 1 year ago
      That being said, the role is in Germany, where it is, to a limited degree, possible to sue for damages resulting from not honoring the notice period. It is also common to add an additional limited a priori damage value into the contract. Not legal advice. [1]
      Anyhow, for anything below a managerial role I've never seen a company enforce those rules. They're mostly a deterrence, I suppose.
      [1] https://www.haufe.de/recht/arbeits-sozialrecht/wenn-ein-arbe...
  - orangepurple 1 year ago
    Illegal clauses in contracts are unenforceable.
    - nickkell 1 year ago
      Are you implying this clause is illegal? As far as I'm aware as long as the notice period is at least as long as the statutory period it's valid
AdamN 1 year ago
Would you mind putting the comp and other specifics? I'm interested in the current state of the German tech market (I'm in Berlin).
- nickkell 1 year ago
  It's 75k, but I believe I could be receiving 95k if I was either smarter, better at interviewing or better at negotiating.
  As to other benefits: it's 30 days vacation and they mention profit-sharing, but nothing concrete.
piva00 1 year ago
Sweden, senior level, all my jobs here had what seems to be the usual 3 months notice period.
Irishsteve 1 year ago
the legal notice period is determined on tenure. Think two years you are obliged to give 1 month. So while the 6 months is overly long you wouldn’t need to do it.
grigarav 1 year ago
3 months notice followed by a 6 month gardening leave.
forgotmypw17 1 year ago
I have been told that 6 months is typical in France.
- orwin 1 year ago
  It's usually 3. 6 for senior or executive positions, but basically, it goes both ways. You can't have an imbalance in the company's favor, so if you have to give notice 6 month prior, the company have to give you notice at least 6 month prior dismissal (it can be a year for executive position).
badrabbit 1 year ago
Can you back out of a resignation notice?
- hkwerf 1 year ago
  The contract is for Germany, where you generally cannot, as you have essentially cancelled the contract. You would need a new contract, which requires the other party to consent. This is not legal advice.
- greggsy 1 year ago
  If they agree to it, yes
anakaine 1 year ago
Executive title, Australia, 4 weeks.
- greggsy 1 year ago
  Executive title in cyber, Australia, 1 week.