Cannabis use disorder and subsequent risk of depression and bipolar disorder
166 points by ytNumbers 1 year ago | 297 comments- 01100011 1 year agoObviously people with mental discomfort are more likely to seek comfort in mind altering substances.
That said, as someone who is bipolar, has bipolar friends and has used cannabis for a significant portion of my half-century on Earth, cannabis usage is proportional to mood instability in myself and my friends. I have taken extensive breaks and noticed I am much more mentally resilient and less emotionally labile when taking breaks.
- mvdtnz 1 year ago> Obviously people with mental discomfort are more likely to seek comfort in mind altering substances.
This can be true at the same time that cannabis use disorder increases the likelihood of mental illness is true. These are not mutually exclusive.
- 01100011 1 year agoYes. I believe I said as much in the second half of my comment.
- wyclif 1 year agoYou just nailed the paradox at the heart of much cannabis legalization discourse. I don't think the general public understands the "not mutually exclusive" point.
- 2-718-281-828 1 year agos/he said that.
- 01100011 1 year ago
- manicennui 1 year agoI learned a new word: labile.
"Apt or likely to change."
- jalino23 1 year agoI didnt know that word before reading this too.
is it grammatically correct to say "there is nothing more non-labile than a temporary code"
- TheSpiceIsLife 1 year agoThe opposite of labile is stabile.
Probably a more common context for these words to occur is medicine, or more broadly toxicology, where you might have heard:
Heat labile vs heat stabile
- abdullahkhalids 1 year agoThe sentence is grammatically correct because as per the rules of English grammar the nouns/verbs/other parts of the speech are in the correct locations.
The overall sentence is syntactically incorrect because you forgot to put a question mark at the end.
The sentence is semantically correct (which you actually meant to ask), though with a better alternate, as explained by the sibling comment.
- dgacmu 1 year agoMaybe but it's awkward as heck because of the double negative. "Nothing less labile" sounds a lot better.
- TheSpiceIsLife 1 year ago
- jalino23 1 year ago
- whompyjaw 1 year agoi appreciate you sharing this. ofc, it's only one anecdotal piece of evidence, but i have been a bit torn about my use of cannabis at times. i sometimes feel it maybe helps, but i wonder if that's just the short term side effects that seem to calm me, and the long term effects (even if only using once a month) make my emotions more unstable...
- rickydroll 1 year agoI live with bipolar as well and have avoided cannabis use because when I did smoke it, I was severely depressed afterwards. Recently I had some dental work that did not go well and I was on one of the Oxy formulations for a few days to deal with pain. I had a bad reaction to the Oxy and I found that 5 mg pot gummy's in conjunction with Tylenol provided better pain relief. When the pain faded enough that I just needed Tylenol, I didn't experience the usual post use depression.
I experiment with the gummy's afterwards and found that the depression post usage effect was still present. Something about using them as pain relief changed how my mind responded to THC.
- LargeTomato 1 year agoBipolar, also a heavy cannabis user.
Both can be true, weed can help with mood swings by numbing you out or shifting your mental state somewhere else. Weed can also be harmful because it numbs you, but harmful in a latent and subtle sort of way.
- rickydroll 1 year ago
- semiquaver 1 year agoAnecdotal as well, but I’ve found the same to be true, through hard fought experience.
- naasking 1 year ago> have taken extensive breaks and noticed I am much more mentally resilient and less emotionally labile when taking breaks.
For sure, but that's an association. Which one actually caused the other? eg. perhaps you got into a state of mind that was less emotionally labile and so decided to take a break.
- jochem9 1 year agoThat's not my experience.
Sometimes I don't use cannabis for a while and feel fine. Then, while still feeling fine I unexpectedly end up in a situation where I can smoke a joint. Maybe it shows up at a birthday party. The days after there is a noticable change in my emotion regulation (less stable, easily feeling down).
- naasking 1 year agoThere are other confounders associated with parties though, like drinking, staying up late, talking with people leading to innate comparisons with one's own life, etc. all of which affect one's mood. I'm not entirely skeptical of the possibility of a cannabis effect, just saying not to be too hasty in generalizing.
- naasking 1 year ago
- jochem9 1 year ago
- mvdtnz 1 year ago
- ajfdsaaj4e4ea 1 year agoI'm terrified of seeking help for mental illness because certain diagnosis can have legal impacts. It is a sad truth, no one has a real response for it except "get over it", and it is very, very difficult to get support for political reforms to protect the mentally ill.
I am also terrified the medications we force on some mental health patients, especially injected long-term ones, are purely for the benefit of the care taker and not the individual.
I think cannabis had fell into a niche of "self-medication", for people who the system doesn't seem to work for. Cannabis nor alcohol are the ideal medications, they are simply the only ones most easily available.
- no_butterscotch 1 year ago> I'm terrified of seeking help for mental illness because certain diagnosis can have legal impacts. It is a sad truth, no one has a real response for it except "get over it", and it is very, very difficult to get support for political reforms to protect the mentally ill.
What are some of the impacts?
I remember the show "Homeland" the main character had a sister who was a doc who would prescribe her meds for bipolar, that way she could continue working for the government/Pentagon as a spy.
- Kerb_ 1 year agoMy brother was almost denied clearance because he saw a therapist when he was mentally healthy yet personally struggling just to ensure that he didn't have any metal issues
- Kerb_ 1 year ago
- Perenti 1 year agoRemember that word "some" - it's really important. I knew someone who was floridly psychotic and would stab strangers when he smoked weed, until he got an Involuntary Treatment Order and monthly depot injections. He's still got very unusual ideas, but he's not stabbing anymore.
Mental Illness is a very broad term.
- 1 year ago
- bob_theslob646 1 year agoIt's crazy.... depending on country as well can be an issue. My buddy in the Netherlands was telling me how difficult it is to talk to a therapist there. Wild.
- somsak2 1 year agothere's tons of self-guided resources online that are amazing at helping with mental illness that don't require you to submit to some person or organization that could report you. we need to stop seeing "talking to a therapist" as the only way to define getting mentally healthy.
- abrichr 1 year agoCare to share a few?
- somsak2 1 year agoI'm personally partial to CBT. Burns' Feeling Great and Feeling Good are classics that have shown to be effective in research. Once you build familiarity with the concepts through those kinds of explanatory resources, individual exercises like those published by UW at https://depts.washington.edu/uwhatc/cbt-notebook/ can be done in a self-guided manner.
- somsak2 1 year ago
- abrichr 1 year ago
- no_butterscotch 1 year ago
- monero-xmr 1 year agoEvery single chemical I put into my body has risk. Too much salt, caffeine / coffee, cheese, pasta / carbohydrates. When I drive a car I’m rolling the dice. When I let my 10 year old walk by himself to the subway, ride it to his friend’s house, and then ride it back, my mind can wander to all sorts of dangers.
Marijuana is absolutely a drug with downsides. There are also upsides - for example I enjoy my life more. I also enjoy alcohol, sometimes to excess. I acknowledge I have taken likely years of my life away through my actions. I have also dabbled in cocaine and ecstasy. I don’t think those drugs should be totally illegal either.
My point is we all make our own decisions and are forced to accept risk. Sometimes you just have to live. Otherwise why bother living?
- octodog 1 year agoAbsolutely, nothing wrong with that.
It's important to understand the risks so that one can make informed choices. That is probably where there needs to be more research.
- tomohelix 1 year agoOf course, I have no complaints or problems with things people do behind closed doors.
I only have issues with those who smoke so much it reeks even when they are not smoking or I am 10ft away from them and still smell it.
- SamPatt 1 year ago10 ft away? I wish it were only that far. After legalization here in Michigan, you can smell it seemingly everywhere.
I supported, and still support, legalization. But the smell is a serious issue. Even just driving down the road I catch a whiff from other cars or buildings nearly every day.
- SamPatt 1 year ago
- networkchad 1 year ago[dead]
- octodog 1 year ago
- m0llusk 1 year agoThis is potentially interesting, but it is important to bear in mind just how tricky mental disorders are to characterize robustly. Psychiatry does not have a record of strongly reproducible results. All of these primary criteria, cannabis use disorder, bipolar disorder, and depression are frequently diagnosed differently by practiced professionals.
One of the more academic investigations of addiction, the book High Price by Carl Hart, suggests that the real experience of addiction is substantially different from the way most people think of it and most addicts eventually quit on their own for a range of reasons. This suggests that the very concept of "cannabis use disorder" may not really make sense.
- Eddy_Viscosity2 1 year ago> the very concept of "cannabis use disorder" may not really make sense.
I've known people who used cannabis the way alcoholics use alcohol - if it wasn't a use disorder, I don't know what is. The concept is valid and can apply to sorts of things from gambling, pron, online gaming even. If the use becomes problematic then its a problem, 'use disorder' is the just the name for this.
- m0llusk 1 year agoSounds reasonable, but that also seems to be within the range of you know it when you see it phenomena like porn. There is something real there, but making a science to study and control it may not be as trivial as it first seems.
- m0llusk 1 year ago
- Eddy_Viscosity2 1 year ago
- NoZebra120vClip 1 year agoA few months ago, we had a support group going at my clinic, with several patients with various diagnoses which are not directly discussed. We also had a presentation on sleep hygiene by a visiting psychiatrist. One of the newer support group members was openly promoting his love of smoking a joint and a cigarette and chilling out in the morning, and the psychiatrist said "cool, you do you!"
Then the next week, the clinician leader of the support group laid down a few ground rules for the new members, one of them being "if you show up while you're high, then you'll be gone just as quickly".
So I think it's safe to say that there is a range of opinions and attitudes among clinical professionals.
- ramblenode 1 year agoIt could also be the psychiatrist realizes it's bad but, being in a group probably filled with bad habits, has to pick which battles to fight.
- NoZebra120vClip 1 year agoI have a friend who makes a good tech salary and lives in $LARGE_CITY, and she and I have compared notes on mental disorders over the years.
She enjoys her drugs, of all kinds. She worked hard to connect with a psychiatrist who could both prescribe the sorts of drugs she's into, and also not shame her for the recreational drugs she does on the side. She pays out-of-pocket for the privilege.
It became apparent to me that she's not really into treatment of her condition or healing, or repairing her relationships with friends and family. She just seemed to be on a hedonistic journey of seeking pleasure.
So you can decriminalize and reschedule all the drugs you want, but people will self-medicate, and find dangerous uses. People who use illegal or OTC or alternative treatments will not always report those to their physician or pharmacy. Even if they do, all interactions are not known, but many dangerous ones can result from trying to put someone on psychotropics while they're under the influence of something else.
- WarOnPrivacy 1 year ago> has to pick which battles to fight.
One can also pick how to battle. A hostile zero tolerance edict wasn't necessary to anything.
- somsak2 1 year agoand yet the only way many addicts can get and stay clean is through exactly a zero tolerance approach
- somsak2 1 year ago
- NoZebra120vClip 1 year ago
- 2-718-281-828 1 year agothis "range of opinions" could well be held by a single clinician even without any (psycho)logical contradiction.
- ramblenode 1 year ago
- scythe 1 year ago>These findings may inform policies regarding the legal status and control of cannabis use.
But not without NNTs. For depression, OR = 1.8, NNT = 12 (assuming 10% lifetime incidence, this is very hard to estimate due to the difficulty in diagnosis). For bipolar disorder, OR = 3, NNT = 25. This is before accounting for any reverse causation: roughly 80% of incidence of BPD is associated with genetic variation.
- avodonosov 1 year agoCould you elaborate?
- scythe 1 year agoThe Wikipedia article is a good place to start:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_needed_to_treat
So e.g. assuming a fully causal association with bipolar disorder (unlikely due to the strong genetic influence on bipolar disorder) you need 25 people to stop smoking weed to prevent one case of bipolar disorder. You can also calculate it in terms of how many people do you need to imprison to prevent one case of bipolar disorder.
This is particularly revealing when you look at studies giving an odds ratio of 2-3 for cannabis use associated with schizophrenia. The base rate for schizophrenia is <0.02% [1], so the NNT is >2500. You probably need to imprison hundreds of people to prevent one case of schizophrenia, again assuming the association is causal.
The claim that these studies should impact marijuana legality is just plain bad math.
1: https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&d...
- scythe 1 year ago
- avodonosov 1 year ago
- taskforcegemini 1 year agoI can vouch for Cannabis being able to cause a heavy depressive episode lasting several days. In my "research" it starts several days after intake and also strongly hightens paranoia levels / trust in other people. There are of course many factors to consider, like medication usage. but not going into detail with that
- kikokikokiko 1 year agoDoes it really surprises anyone that a psychoactive drug have psychoactive effects on it's users? This whole "cannabis is an inofensive natural plant" is so dumb, of course a drug that alters your mind and is used regularly will produce side effects on it's users. The other thing that I always try to warn my pot head friends is about the pulmonary risks involved in cannabis use. I know guys that smoke all day pretty much non stop. Imagine if instead of weed, it was tobacco cigarretes, UNFILTERED, being burned up and breathed in. Smoke is smoke, and your lungs will get covered in ashes and debris over time. Pot heads are just alcoholics who destroy their lungs instead of their livers, the mental impairment part is the same. I'm not talking about drinking a beer or two on the weekend, or smoking a joint once a week. I'm talking about the wake and bake type of guys.
- kromem 1 year agoAs it naturally occurs it probably was fairly innocuous in longer term psychoactive effects.
Heirloom strains had CBD alongside THC.
CBD on its own has been as effective in research as antipsychotics in treating schizophrenia, and very much mitigates the OP effects in research.
But the vast majority of product today has selectively bred out the CBD.
It's time we stop talking about cannabis use and start regarding it as THC use, as the full spectrum of the original plant is no longer what people are really using.
It'd be like selectively breeding high arsenic almonds and then people getting sick eating them and declaring the problem as one impacting almond consumption instead of more specifically arsenic consumption.
THC unmitigated by CBD is a psychiatric sleeping giant that's currently not being addressed because the pendulum swing is still glowing strong with legalization momentum and any criticism is generally dismissed as simply being anti-cannabis use generally.
- fallat 1 year agoThe THC levels in Canadian cannabis is f'd. Of all the things, I wish the gov. had put mandates that there must be a minimum level of CBD and maximum level of THC. It's bonkers.
- MaxikCZ 1 year agoIts like going to a pub and the only beverage is 95% ethanol.
I just hope in few years/decades we will have our well-bred 3% THC joints sold as equal.
- MaxikCZ 1 year ago
- fallat 1 year ago
- kromem 1 year ago
- sandofsky 1 year agoI can't see the full study methodology without an account. That said…
The challenge with running studies ethically is that you can't split your test groups into two groups and somehow induce cannabis use disorder and see if major depression, bipolar, etc results from it. Rather, you can see if the people who naturally develop the disorder also have those problems.
The flaw in this reasoning is that people who develop depression and similar issues are likely to self-medicate with cannabis. In related news, umbrellas do not cause rain.
- nuclearnice3 1 year agoIndeed. Your reasoning was echoed in this critique from Prof David Curtis, Honorary Professor, UCL Genetics Institute.
> “Around 20% of young people in Denmark use cannabis but in this study fewer than 1% of the sample had been assigned a diagnosis of cannabis use disorder and these may well have been people who had a pre-existing susceptibility to depression and other psychiatric disorders.
> “Other studies have shown that cannabis use itself is not associated with increased risk of depression, so perhaps we are seeing that people with a pre-existing susceptibility to depression are more likely to be diagnosed with cannabis use disorder. This clearly does not mean that we should infer that cannabis somehow causes depression.
> “I don’t think that this study provides us with much information to help decide the extent to which cannabis use is, or is not, harmful.”
[1] https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-study-...
- Vecr 1 year agoObviously this is not a real argument against what you said, but the same thing happened with smoking. The tobacco companies said that there might be some set of factors that both caused lung disease, and caused smoking. As opposed to the alternate hypothesis that smoking caused lung disease. As is generally thought now, umbrellas do not cause rain but smoking does cause lung disease. Cannabis is federally illegal in the United States (the same way manufacturing machine guns without a license is for example), so if you live there don't use it. In some other places, I'd highly advise you to consider only the known benefits of using cannabis (and actually known, not something from a crappy study that you never read past the abstract or something a stoner buddy told you), and weigh that against known and potential risks of using the drug. Treat any form of smoking, including smoking cannabis, with high suspicion, as it involves inhaling large concentrations of combustion products. In conclusion, I would suggest you treat cannabis like how a rational person would treat cigarettes in the 1950s.
- sandofsky 1 year ago> Obviously this is not a real argument against what you said, but the same thing happened with smoking.
They showed the link between smoking and cancer with a mountain of empirical evidence, including tests on mice. https://www.mskcc.org/news/how-do-cigarettes-cause-cancer
> Cannabis is federally illegal in the United States
Nobody cares anymore.
> I'd highly advise you to consider only the known benefits of using cannabis
Sugar has no health benefits and causes way more deaths. If you want to really change the world for the better, I suggest a war on ice cream.
> Treat any form of smoking, including smoking cannabis, with high suspicion, as it involves inhaling large concentrations of combustion products.
Finally, we agree: consume edibles.
- Vecr 1 year ago> They showed the link between smoking and cancer with a mountain of empirical evidence, including tests on mice.
Yes, it does now. From what I've seen, people complain about how long it took for official action in labeling to take place on tobacco smoking, but it's up to them how much effort they want to put into preventing a repeat situation. For a somewhat related example, some people think the FDA puts so much effort into preventing a repeat of thalidomide that it's a net negative for the entire organization to exist at all, and suggest expanding the category of "legal but not (effectively) mandated" to include almost all proposed drugs. "Never again" is much harder and more costly than many people think, because you have to get it right (or err in the direction of preventing the type of outcome in question) every single time, but if a single thing gets through, it's all over.
Make your decisions as rationally as possible.
> I suggest a war on ice cream.
Ice cream has some pretty funny statistics that I don't really buy as making actual sense. I'd limit usage quite heavily.
- bumby 1 year ago>Nobody cares anymore.
This really depends on the context. Note the various news articles currently going around that highlight the increased scrutiny Musk faced when he smoked weed publicly on a podcast. It’s still federally illegal and that can still come with very real consequences.
- Vecr 1 year ago
- mr_toad 1 year ago> Obviously this is not a real argument against what you said, but the same thing happened with smoking. The tobacco companies said that there might be some set of factors that both caused lung disease, and caused smoking.
Mental illness and substance use both affect/are effected by the Brain. It seems less likely that the same cause would affect both the Brain and the Lungs.
- hn_throwaway_99 1 year ago> Cannabis is federally illegal in the United States (the same way manufacturing machine guns without a license is for example), so if you live there don't use it.
That's not even really true anymore. I live in Texas, which has virtually no legal weed (beyond medical marijuana for a very small number of specific conditions like epilepsy and ALS - it's not like other states where you can say "Hey doc, I've got a headache, can I get a marijuana prescription?"), and yet I can walk into a nice, clean, friendly store in a strip mall and pick up some D9 gummies and brownies, as well as some THCA bud that to me is indistinguishable from "normal" marijuana.
The fact is the 2018 farm bill that legalized hemp had enough loopholes that it essentially legalized marijuana as well. While a lot of this is in a gray area (particularly in the case of THCA bud which appears to me to be a pretty blatant misrepresentation of the law, but I ain't complaining), it's clear there is no appetite anywhere to crack down on these loopholes. For example, Florida considered a bill this year that would crack down on D9 products, but there was already enough entrenched business opposition that the bill was killed.
Weed is legal in the US. If you're worried about legal consequences, just pay a little more and go to a nice dispensary and you're fine.
- Vecr 1 year agoThe ATF recently (in the last few years) updated some of their forms to clarify that cannabis is still an illegal drug. In addition, while the DEA may not enforce as much as they used to, they have a clear position on the matter.
- bumby 1 year agoMeanwhile I know people who had cbd-infused lotion as they drove through Texas and had some very expensive legal fees to avoid a felony.
- Vecr 1 year ago
- sandofsky 1 year ago
- taurath 1 year agoThis precisely. Who’s going to utilize weed more? People going through mental anguish. You know what causes major depression anxiety and psychosis? Trauma. Read the ACE study. A cruel traumatizing environment and behaviors are far more to blame than cannabis.
- l33t7332273 1 year agoHow is correlation vs causation determined in other studies where a control group cannot be used?
- PheonixPharts 1 year agoIt's important to recognize that we've never successfully answered Hume's general skepticism about the existence of causality as something that is real outside of our own minds. So causality can't be positively confirmed to exist at all, let alone be detected and confirmed through statistics.
Before you dismiss that is philosophical non-sense, causality is closely related to the "Arrow of Time" which is considered an unsolved problem in physics [0]. From what we've observed time appears to be the only asymmetric physical process, largely due to entropy (that is you can immediately tell if a video of a jar breaking is being played backwards because we don't expected a jar to "fall together"). There are Quantum processes, for example, that are time symmetric, that is playing a video of these processes would look the same reversed and forward.
That said, as someone who does a lot of statistics, in practice what we do is model the causal process with a directed acyclic graph and see how well our models behave under causal assumptions. These work okay for answering practical questions about does A cause B. By controlling for correlating variables we can see the impact on what we believe to be a causal variable when we condition on these other correlating factors.
Worth mention that nearly all of the work is done by linear models in practice.
- brutusborn 1 year agoI don't think Hume's work suggests that causality isn't 'real' but that we can't prove causation using inductive methods. This isn't a problem unless our measure of 'truth' is proving some causal effect to be true. The solution is to pretend our models of causation are correct, run them and compare the results to observation. We never 'prove' the causal effect, but we judge its validity by how well it can predict future observations.
In my view the 'real' problem we currently have is that we cannot test hypothesis in isolation (Duhem-Quine thesis). Thus we rely on heuristics like "scientific consensus" to judge whether the hypothesis that make up a field are gaining predictive power or not. The solution to all these problems is to use the Lakatosian Method of Scientific Research Programmes to track a field's progress over time. Anything less than this just devolves into Kuhnian paradigms, which is basically a popularity contest to determine 'valid' scientific methods.
I think this 'real' problem can explain all the failures of modern science: the replication crisis, abuse of statistical methods, funding influencing results.
- xpe 1 year agoThe comment above refers to Hume's 'induction problem' [1].
> we've never successfully answered Hume's general skepticism about the existence of causality as something that is real outside of our own minds
The quote seems to imply a strong consensus, but [1] disagrees.
The phrasing "the existence of causality as something that is real outside of our own minds" sounds like philosophical idealism [2]. One can take that view without discussing causation at all, seems to me. Forgive the following blunt questions: how is philosophical idealism either (a) useful or (b) testable? To me, currently, it seems to be neither.
Maybe I'm missing something? For those that get value from it, what are some practical take-aways you get out of thinking about Hume's 'problem of induction'?
I'm very much into philosophy, but I admit I don't see a lot of utility in digging into this outside of historical purposes. It feels to me that the tools from inferential statistics combined with some deeper study on causation are far more useful and enlightening than trying to figure out the historical context around Hume's writing here. I'm glad other people do it, for sure, but what I've skimmed doesn't "grab" me.
WRT causation, I often return to the idea of "no model is perfect, but some are useful". There are many times when we build useful models that -- when combined with proper experimentation -- very strongly indicate causation. The laws of physics, for example. As soon as people get involved, it gets messy.
- brutusborn 1 year ago
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- sacrosancty 1 year ago[dead]
- PheonixPharts 1 year ago
- cratermoon 1 year agoTry this: full PDF: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5fa2eabb04edcf45a6512...
- labrador 1 year agoDon't bother trying to read the full text. They ask for all your information then you still can't read it.
- avodonosov 1 year ago> people who develop depression and similar issues are likely to self-medicate with cannabis
Note, the study speaks of risk of depression - depresion happens after they have cannabis use disorder. Hence "Subsequent" in the study title.
- avodonosov 1 year agoIsn't it possible to distinguish casuality between A and B from correlation by simply considering set sizes?
!A & B A & !B A & B !A & !B A B !A !B
- PheonixPharts 1 year agoNo because you can never know for sure that there isn't a latent factor C which is the real causal factor and A is merely correlating with it (if we presume causality to exist at all, which is a pretty standard assumption).
We can compose DAGs that control for the factors we do know about, but it's impossible to exhaust or even know all possible latent processes that are impacting the outcome.
- avodonosov 1 year agoOk. But can statistics disprove casuality?
E.g. to show that A does not cause B, while B (or a latent factor B correlates with) causes A?
When people say that the study can equally be interpretted as cannabis disorder causes depression and as depression causes cannabis disorder, can't statistics show that these two hypothesys are not equal?
- avodonosov 1 year ago
- pseudocomposer 1 year agoCould you explain which distributions you think are correlation and which are causation?
- avodonosov 1 year agoI hoped someone who knows statistics will just tell us, instead of me stretching my brain.
The famous phrase "correlation does not mean casuation" is not equal to "correlation is indistingushable from casuation", but that's how people seem to often treat it.
Ideally, the paper abstract should be clear about what can or can not be concluded. In the title they say "subsequent" as if suggesting casuality, but in the abstract they say "associated". Confusing for a layman such as me.
My intuition of how to distinguish correlation from casuation:
If cannabis and depression were symmetrically connected, then incease of chances for cannabis use between depressed was equal to the increase of chances for depression between cannabis users.
If cannabis increases chances for depression more that depression increases chances for cannabis, than we conclude cannabis tends to cause depression.
Formula: percentage of depressed between canabis users / percentage of depressed in general population > persentage of cannabis users between depressed / persentage of cannabis users in general population.
Something like that.
- avodonosov 1 year ago
- jitl 1 year agono?
- PheonixPharts 1 year ago
- darkclouds 1 year agoThat "whitey" effect people getting smoking weed and hash for the first few times is from a sudden release of glutathione, a powerful antioxidant stored in the liver, and a supplement Asian people have been known to take to whiten their skin.
- nuclearnice3 1 year ago
- M95D 1 year ago> Cannabis use disorder was associated with an increased risk of [...]
They didn't prove cause and effect, only association.
- datameta 1 year agoNot everything is A therefore B in our body's homeostasis. Well perhaps completely overindulging it gets to that point. But I think the idea is the effect can be there even if overused slightly.
- datameta 1 year ago
- senttoschool 1 year agoI just quit weed after getting addicted for almost 2 years.
There is a large community of people who are trying to quit: /r/leaves
The article is nothing new to me. Read a few posts from the subreddit and you'd see a pattern.
Three weeks ago, I was pro-weed recreation legalization. Today, I'm strongly anti recreation use.
Edit: I'm not against decriminalization of weed. I'm highly against pro-recreational use. I'm against high THC %, easy access, advertisements, sponsorships, etc. I believe weed should be classified as a highly addictive drug - especially to youth. We should not have weed stores. It should be sold behind the counter. It should have a very high tax so that it's not cheap. It should have huge, bold warning labels on packaging. It should not be legalized at the federal level.
- jliptzin 1 year agoWith all due respect, your inability to use marijuana responsibly should not make my responsible marijuana usage illegal.
- mensetmanusman 1 year agoSociety does this all the time though realistically. If there is a 1:N chance of harm; and N is low, and we have no idea who will be harmed, we tend to regulate or make illegal.
How many societies have legalized marijuana?
- danenania 1 year agoThere are many things that provably have much higher risk of harm than cannabis but have no serious attempts underway to make them illegal. Unhealthy food. Motorcycles. All kinds of dangerous hobbies. And alcohol of course. The list is long.
I don’t think it has much to do with wanting to help or protect anyone, or else you would see more consistency in the things people want to make illegal. It’s more akin to religious people who think they know the “right” way to live and want to impose those values on everyone.
Many people just have an emotional dislike of cannabis for whatever reason—seeing its effect on others makes them uncomfortable, so they want to stop everyone from doing it. Soda and motorcycles don’t make them uncomfortable, so they don’t care about those.
- 1 year ago
- jliptzin 1 year agoHow many societies would have made marijuana illegal had the US not done so first and then forced the rest of the world’s hand?
- mr_toad 1 year agoI’m pretty sure alcohol, cars, and guns do more harm, but good luck making them illegal.
- danenania 1 year ago
- senttoschool 1 year agoWith all due respect, I was a responsible user for the first year too. Good luck to you and I hope you never get addicted.
Unlike alcohol addiction, which can come on fast, weed grabs a hold of you over a longer period. It starts out as only beneficial with little to no downside. You won't notice you're addicted until much later.
Also, I find your decision to call the plant marijuana interesting. The names weed and pot have a negative connotation. But "marijuana" sounds a lot more acceptable. Nothing to do with you. Just something I noticed.
- jliptzin 1 year agoI first smoked marijuana 20 years ago. Since then there have been years where I haven’t had it at all, to smoking daily for months, to going back to not having it for months at a time. I have never had any issue stopping. No withdrawal. For me it’s even easier to quit than coffee. Not that I ever said to myself I need to “quit” smoking marijuana, because it isn’t an addiction. Sometimes I’m more busy than other times and want to focus on work, so I don’t get the time. Other times I’m in a more recreational period of my life and I find it is a lot more preferable than alcohol. Did you know some people casually are able to smoke cigarettes too without getting addicted?
- marcod 1 year ago> Also, I find your decision to call the plant marijuana interesting. The names weed and pot have a negative connotation. But "marijuana" sounds a lot more acceptable. Nothing to do with you. Just something I noticed.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/29/marijuana-na...
- kentrado 1 year agoI am a responsible user for more than ten years.
You speak as if marijuana is highly addictive when in fact it is less addictive than coffee and easier to quit.
- jliptzin 1 year ago
- mensetmanusman 1 year ago
- WarOnPrivacy 1 year ago> Three weeks ago, I was pro-weed recreation legalization. Today, I'm strongly anti recreation use.
The other posters here have a point. If one is vocal against cannabis while mostly giving alcohol a pass - it makes it harder to respect warnings of harm.
After 5 generations of lying drug war PR and ridiculous propaganda, this deeply incredulous debate needs a lot to be worth considering.
- aurareturn 1 year agoJust because alcohol is bad for you, doesn't mean weed is good for you.
I believe it's easier to get addicted to weed than alcohol. I think time will prove me right.
Think of it this way. Let's say there are 100 people in a society. Without weed, 5 are addicted to alcohol. With weed, 20 are addicted to weed and 3 are addicted to alcohol. Yes, there will be fewer alcohol addicts, but we added 20 weed addicts. Is this better for society? I don't believe so.
You're welcomed to disagree.
- quickthrowman 1 year agoBeing addicted to alcohol is easily an order of magnitude more destructive to a person and the people around them than chronic marijuana use. It’s not even close.
I’ve been to inpatient chemical dependency treatment twice, once for opiate addiction and once for alcohol addiction. There were 0 people that were inpatient for marijuana use.
- MaxikCZ 1 year agoI dont think its fair to just pull those number out of your bottocks and use them as argument. The same way I could argue "100 people, 20 addicted to alcohol, with weed 5 are addicted to weed and 5 to alcohol, while 30 begun to use alcohol/weed responsibly after broadening their views on how substances affect their mind.
Now the argument looks completely different, yet still holds 0 value.
It seems to me you are scared of weed now, and with your honest good will want to save others from it as well. That's nice and all, but please don't presume you know better than everyone, or even better than "those who haven't tried it yet".
I have had my fair share of experiences with weed, and while I agree that mindless consumption will bring harm (ask me how I know), I also believe that just landing hard in this case helped me discern this pattern in other areas of my life too - so (in my subjective experience) even this harm it brought me _directly_ improved my life in the long run. And that's before I start talking about effect it had outside its most obvious harm.
I advocate for education, and responsible trials for anyone curious, and I believe it can bring many positive changes into ones life. One just have not to abuse it.
- Perenti 1 year agoYour 20 pot heads are most dangerous to sweets and junk food. The alcoholics drive, get angry and start fights.
I'd much rather be in a room with 20 stoners than 5 drunks.
- quickthrowman 1 year ago
- aurareturn 1 year ago
- andrewstuart 1 year ago>> Today, I'm strongly anti
Haha like all reformed addicts of anything. I'm strongly anti cigarettes.
- senttoschool 1 year agoWell, I wouldn't have been strongly anti recreational use if I didn't go through what I did.
Extremely high THC products coupled with professional marketing agencies? Yikes. We're going to have a weed epidemic soon. Maybe it's a silent epidemic now.
- danenania 1 year agoIf we have a weed epidemic then we certainly have an alcohol epidemic too, as well as an obesity epidemic, as well as a traffic accident epidemic, and so on.
Making everything that can be harmful to some subset of the population illegal is not the way to deal with these issues. It's reductio ad absurdum into a totalitarian nanny state that literally controls your diet and makes you drive 25 mph on the highway.
It's not the government's job to make everything that could possibly hurt you if you overdo it unavailable to you.
I agree with you that cannabis can be very harmful to some people, and that the risks are often understated. But if you want to help people who are susceptible in this way, the solution is to help them realize they have a problem, develop self-discipline, and understand that while cannabis may be harmless to many people, for them it is not, and what works for many others (occasional moderate use) won't work for them.
In short, people with this issue should take responsibility, join a 12 step program, and fix the problem in themselves rather than expecting all of society to adapt itself to not trigger their addiction. That you can't use it in moderation doesn't mean no one can, just like there are probably many things you can do in moderation that other people aren't able to.
- WarOnPrivacy 1 year ago> We're going to have a weed epidemic soon. Maybe it's a silent epidemic now.
Whatever it is, it's been underway for long enough for the pot-parade of horribles to manifest itself. Heavy weed smokers are all over - but we aren't surrounded by ruin that is clearly attributable to pot.
If you have extra concern to invest, may I suggest one of our most pressing psychological catastrophe?
The criminalization of childhood growth (adult-free time) and the erasure of critical free range land. We've brought complete ruin to childhood and parenting in just two generations. Whatever you think pot is doing, this is actually far, far worse.
- danenania 1 year ago
- EdwardDiego 1 year agoNothing more virtuous than a reformed smoker:D
- senttoschool 1 year ago
- saulpw 1 year agoTrack the timeline of your personal evolution on this topic as you progress in your journey. I'm a bit more than a week ahead of you, and I'm coming to see the problem as high THC content. Low THC (<10%) and high CBD may mitigate your (justified) concerns about recreational use. Of course as it's become legal in more places, Big Industry is showing its perpetual tendency to create higher potency strains with more addictive potential. Stay tuned..
- pier25 1 year agoThese measures will only increase the black market for weed.
- jliptzin 1 year ago
- cratermoon 1 year ago
- colordrops 1 year agoAlcohol definitely gives puts me into depression and bipolar moods with heavy or regular usage. Basically have to detox every time I drink now.
- skywhopper 1 year agoThe headline here does not match the study, which just says the two are associated.
- 1 year ago
- engineer_22 1 year agoThose are features, not bugs
- jantissler 1 year agoHeadline used here on HN is editorialized and misleading.
- WarOnPrivacy 1 year agoOrig headline: Cannabis Use Disorder and Subsequent Risk of Psychotic and Nonpsychotic Unipolar Depression and Bipolar Disorder
Headline used here: Cannabis use disorder and subsequent risk of depression and bipolar disorder
Specifically, what makes the latter - an Editorialized and Misleading version of the former?
- WarOnPrivacy 1 year ago
- throwaway5959 1 year agoThe only way I can deal with my sociopathic coworkers is through cannabis use, so I’ll roll the dice.
Edit: downvote me daddy
- thsksbd 1 year agoI believe that. There is no doubt in my mind that a good portion of substance abuse is driven by what are issues relating to societal collapse.
I dont really blame drug users for what is usually escapism from our industrialized society rat race.
- binary132 1 year agoYou’ve probably considered this, but habitual use actually makes it harder to cope.
- throwaway5959 1 year agoI don’t use it often enough for that, thankfully. Just every once in a while to reset and take the edge off.
- throwaway5959 1 year ago
- FrozenSynapse 1 year agoHave you considered that your coworkers are not sociopathic and only your perception of them is altered?
- throwaway5959 1 year agoI’ve witnessed the following:
1. A director screaming at a subordinate. 2. Employees working so hard that they had to take time off due to health reasons, related to overwork. All were on visas and in this job market they don’t have a lot of options. 3. Employee A being so mean to an employee B that she started crying in a meeting. Employee A wasn’t even reprimanded. I obviously no longer work there.
But yes, it is my perception that is wrong.
- keepamovin 1 year agoAh, the classic gaslighting for abuse approach. Classy
- 1 year ago
- throwaway5959 1 year ago
- thsksbd 1 year ago
- kromem 1 year agoJust a reminder for anyone reading this that CBD has been shown to be an effective antipsychotic in its own right [1], and particularly in regards to THC related psychosis [2].
It's probably not a great idea that the industry is moving towards high concentration THC and low to zero CBD product.
The "naturally occurring plant" is getting further and further from what's naturally occurring with the psychosis inducing compound coexisting with the psychosis mitigating compound.
It's quite disappointing to walk into a dispensary and see only a tiny shelf in one corner of the store with 1:1 or greater CBD products and 95% of the product on offer as a race to the bottom in CBD potency.
In the majority of people, this won't necessarily result in a psychotic issue, but it's going to happen commonly enough that we're going to have continuing and expanding social issues if 1:1 products don't become more commonplace.
I'd strongly encourage any future legalization legislation to consider marginally subsidizing product that has higher CBD ratios, as often I see that the consumer push towards THC only is related to cost saving against more expensive mixed products.
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- kromem 1 year agoEh, can't edit in my client. First link: https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/understanding-relation...
- sourcecodeplz 1 year agoYeah, cannabis contains a multitude on cannabinoids: THC, CBD, CBN, CBG and CBC. These high-thc & low-cbd strains fuck you up immensely.
Not saying you should never use weed, if I go to Amsterdam, I will for sure use it but I don't bring it back home with me. Smoking once every couple of months will not harm you at all, IMHO.
- 1 year ago
- kromem 1 year ago
- lexandstuff 1 year agoThe title is incorrect. It implies a causal effect, where the article suggests correlation. Also, it refers to a cannabis use disorder, not cannabis use (as mentioned by others).
I propose: "Cannabis use disorder correlated to increased risk of both psychotic and non-psychotic unipolar depression and bipolar disorder."
Or even: "People with major depression, bipolar disorder and psychosis are more likely to be addicted to cannabis."
- kristopolous 1 year agoIn your last suggestion you can just leave off the last 2 words.
- avodonosov 1 year agoWhy not use the original title of the paper?
- 1 year ago
- kristopolous 1 year ago
- tptacek 1 year ago"Cannabis Use Disorder", not "Cannabis use".
The appropriate title is "Cannabis Use Disorder and Subsequent Risk of Psychotic and Nonpsychotic Unipolar Depression and Bipolar Disorder".
- daft_pink 1 year agoHave you ever met someone with schizophrenia?
I would never engage in any activity that increases the likelihood of a permanent life ruining mental illness!
- aeturnum 1 year agoYes I have! I've dated someone even. Schizophrenia covers a pretty wide set of symptom sets but I would not call it flatly "life ruining" at all. Most people with the diagnosis have the potential to lead full, happy lives (that might have more inexplicable episodes than your life).
I'd also ask you to try to avoid further stigmatizing an already misunderstood condition. It's ok to be unsettled by symptoms of schizophrenia and want to avoid developing them yourself! But let's be too dismissive of the lives of those who happen to be diagnosed with a condition.
- shawnz 1 year agoThat statement is obviously not true in an absolute sense, for example, do you avoid driving cars due to the chance of acquiring PTSD after a severe accident?
- glouwbug 1 year agoI mean, I do. But I’m also slightly anxious
- glouwbug 1 year ago
- claytongulick 1 year agoI have.
I worked inpatient psychiatry for ~6 years.
All substances you consume have non-zero risk associated with them.
Including seemingly benign things like milk.
It's the job of every person to understand their body and to do a risk/reward analysis on anything you consume.
For many, the benefits of THC/CBD/cannaboids outweigh the risks.
> I would never engage in any activity that increases the likelihood of a permanent life ruining mental illness!
I'd be willing to bet a substantial amount that you already do.
Sugar, antibiotics, medications, heavy metals... take your pick.
- keepamovin 1 year agoI’m continuously, fascinated by how many commentators on HN are actually having a background in psychiatry and psychology. I took one or two psych classes in college, but I never got the feeling there was any overlap with tech really at all.
probably things have changed now but—-This likely sounds dismissive of psychologist and psychiatrist with regards to technology and I’m sorry for that it’s not what I mean.
I’m just curious where do all these psychiatrists and psychologists happen upon the interest to participate in what is ostensibly a technology form, although strictly speaking, it’s for anything that’s intellectually gratifying…But how do y’all come across it?
- lr4444lr 1 year agoI avoid all 4 of those last things you mentioned as much as possible. Now you have me worried about milk! Will casein really fry my synapses like the vegans tell me? I thought that was just a scare tactic to save animals.
- Vecr 1 year agoCan you explain about the milk? Is it just the sugar content or something else? I'm genuinely interested, I've never heard about that before.
- keepamovin 1 year ago
- klyrs 1 year ago> I would never engage in any activity that increases the likelihood of a permanent life ruining mental illness!
You wouldn't even try Being Wrong on the Internet even once? I have. It's highly addictive.
- teawrecks 1 year agoWhat activity are you referring to? Because this paper doesn't say that "cannabis use" is such an activity.
- hydrok9 1 year agoYou will never develop schizophrenic symptoms unless you are already at risk of the disease.
Source: my own family.
- aeturnum 1 year ago
- labrador 1 year ago> In this cohort study of 6 651 765 individuals in Demark, cannabis use disorder was associated with an increased risk of both psychotic and nonpsychotic unipolar depression and bipolar disorder.
I'm guessing they don't mean over 6 million Danes have cannabis use disorder, but are talking about the minority that do. In that case I'd wonder which came first, the mental disorder or the cannabis use disorder (I haven't read the full text)
- aliyfarah 1 year agoYeah not sure about that, plus most sources have Denmark as having less than 6 million in total population.
- aliyfarah 1 year ago
- NoZebra120vClip 1 year agoThey love to tack on syllables as if it will be more P.C. than "pot abuse"
- tptacek 1 year agoNo, "cannabis use disorder" does not seem to be a medical euphemism for any consumption of cannabis at all.
- NoZebra120vClip 1 year agoNo not what none what now?
> In the 2013 revision for the DSM-5, DSM-IV abuse and dependence were combined into cannabis use disorder. The legal problems criterion (from cannabis abuse) has been removed, and the craving criterion was newly added, resulting in a total of eleven criteria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_use_disorder
You're trying to refute something I didn't say. I said that "cannabis abuse" became "cannabis use disorder" which is less offensive to pot addicts, but also contains two extra syllables, does that make sense?
- NoZebra120vClip 1 year ago
- tptacek 1 year ago
- daft_pink 1 year ago
- fb03 1 year agoCannabis should be legalized and regulated. Period. People that want to partake ofc should have safe access to it.
That doesn't means and has never meant it is a harmless thing, like some groups portray it to be. "it's just a naturally ocurring plant!"
Education, more information and less zealotry help on both sides of the discusstion. It's not the devil's lettuce they had people think with 60s propaganda, but it's not a panacea either. Extremes are not good.
- orblivion 1 year agoIt always seemed like it would be a sea change if the government actually decoupled "this is an okay idea" from "we won't forcefully stop you from doing this". It thus made it feel impossible that they'd legalize drugs, but it's great to see it start to happen. But there may be other long standing examples I'm not thinking of. Smoking and alcohol seem to be on the edge.
- bottlepalm 1 year agoIt's difficult to 'educate' people when we don't know a lot about it. For example, for many people weed is good for a few years, but eventually descend into paranoia, unable to smoke even a little bit. What is causing that? A change in the brain? Is that harmful? Are there other side effects?
- Vecr 1 year agoA lot of naturally occurring plants are harmful, castor beans or foxglove for example.
- 1 year ago
- orblivion 1 year ago
- pfannkuchen 1 year agoThere is some discussion around cannabis bans and their causes in their thread. One aspect that isn’t discussed much but could be very relevant to differing opinions here is that different people respond incredibly differently to marijuana.
Some people experience various, mostly mild, forms of cognitive impairment such as sleepiness, thinking everything is funny, and memory issues. Other people seem to enter a state of heightened idea generation, like more of their brain is working on ideation than usual, and perhaps the sort of thing a priest class would find useful (thinking back to when this plant would have been domesticated). I’m sure there are many other types of reaction as well.
If someone experiences priest mode or is around those that do, they will be more positive towards it than others who only see impairment mode. It is much less homogenous in its effect on people than alcohol is.
- notamy 1 year ago> One aspect that isn’t discussed much but could be very relevant to differing opinions here is that different people respond incredibly differently to marijuana.
Because it’s not about (only) the THC. The other cannabinoids, the terpenes, ... all seem to modulate the effect of the high.
- hydrok9 1 year agoWilliam Burroughs famously said of weed, "I LOVE this stuff. It makes me THINK!"
- rvcdbn 1 year agowow I’ve never heard it put like that but that’s exactly it! I definitely have the second type of reaction. It really feels like short-term hypomania (have some experience with that too).
- TheCleric 1 year agoAnd for some of us it just causes horrible anxiety.
- 1 year ago
- systemvoltage 1 year agoYou can’t excuse your way out with “it’s different for different people”. Guess what? Literally all medicines are. That’s why we use scientific analysis and statistical measures. No shit, things affect people in different ways. That’s the whole point of a large scale study like this.
The entire thread is HN playing denial of the harmful effects of a thing we've advocated for years, often with no dissent.
- notamy 1 year ago
- loeg 1 year ago"Cannabis use" (HN title) and "Cannabis use disorder" (actual title) have very different meanings. The HN title should be corrected.
- clumsysmurf 1 year agoSeems like every week, the health aspects around marijuana become more bleak. In the past few weeks alone:
(1) Cannabis is a scavenger of metals and users had higher levels of lead and cadmium https://medicalxpress.com/news/2023-08-high-blood-urinary-me...
(2) "there's a lot of overlap in terms of the toxins and carcinogens that are in [both] cannabis and tobacco smoke" https://medicalxpress.com/news/2023-08-americans-marijuana-s...
- LapsangGuzzler 1 year agoWe're just finally catching up from the decades of stagnation around the research of cannabis and getting out of the honeymoon phase of legalization.
Anecdotally, my cannabis use fell into the "use disorder" category and it wrecked me mentally. Thinking back on all of the people I knew growing up who said that cannabis wasn't addictive really shows how ignorant we all were.
That said, I still think it should be legalized. We clearly got the war on drugs really, really wrong.
- aliyfarah 1 year agoExpect an even bigger flood gate soon as it just got rescheduled at the federal level.
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- riffic 1 year ago[flagged]
- TillE 1 year ago"Astroturfed" is baseless, but yeah there are a lot of boring nerds who don't do drugs and don't want anyone else to have fun either.
Cannabis is an order of magnitude less harmful than alcohol, who cares. More science is great and helpful, but this doesn't actually move anybody's needle on legalization, it just gives them an excuse to yell about it.
- alchemist1e9 1 year agoMore like society has trouble facing the truth about one of it’s popular vices.
The empirical evidence is overwhelming that there are very serious public health issues, yet so many people have an extremely biased vested interest in either continuing their vice, profiting from others, or simply getting votes.
It will probably go down in 20 years as a disgraceful period of denialism, the promotion and legalization and misinformation to several generations of youth.
- fragmede 1 year agoIt been shown, multiple times, played out in several countries, that prohibition does. not. work. Singapore still had to catch and kill people who do drugs. In the War on Drugs, drugs is winning, by a large margin. We tried DARE, and Just Say No. They didn't work.
What's going to go down in history is how's stupid the way we've been fighting it has been, and the civil liberties we've given up in the face of it. Maybe one fought with therapists and psychiatrists, jobs and job placement programs, homes, and harm reduction would have better results, but we're not able to switch funding away from the DEA towards that. The only way to change the game is to fight it on the demand side. Make smoking pot that thing your lame parents, or that one uncle who never amounted to anything do.
- paulmd 1 year agoNah, people just realize that it’s not worth continuing to fight the drug war and kill and imprison hundreds of thousands just because little skylar turned into a bit of a pothead for a couple years.
This is exactly the kind of pro-drug war astroturfing GP is talking about. Think of the children, think of the health risks!
The risk has always been non-zero, but it’s not high either. And the net reduction in dead dogs and botched drug raids alone is a countervailing factor.
- xp84 1 year agoMaybe I’m just biased because I’m from an area where they grew a lot of weed before legalization anyhow, but I don’t know that the youths are consuming any more cannabis (or that a larger proportion of them do it) now. It was already there, readily available, and highly prized amongst the same kind of people 20 or 30 years ago. So to me, the major difference is…how bad they’re made to feel about their drug of choice, I guess?
- fragmede 1 year ago
- TillE 1 year ago
- LapsangGuzzler 1 year ago
- andrewstuart 1 year agoThere's lots of people who take this sort of thing as reason to criminalize cannabis.
Regardless of the problems, it is still a personal health issue. Criminalizing causes more harm than good.
- daft_pink 1 year agoI don't think people should be put in jail for cannabis. However, we shouldn't be devoting our tier 1 retail space or having startups with massive advertising budgets pushing it.
It should be sold as a generic drug by pharmacies that make most of their business from other drugs not dispensary entrepreneurs creating massive retail brands like alcohol.
- BirAdam 1 year agoI feel like you’re being quite morally prescriptive and advocating legislation on that basis. Is your life so grand or so poor that you cannot empathize with those who’d seek a high from something rather benign?
- daft_pink 1 year agoI think this is actually a reasonable middle ground. People who want to get high can do so cheaply, without brands with large marketing budgets pushing people to do it and having drug dealers in our central business districts.
- aurareturn 1 year agoIt's anything but benign.
- daft_pink 1 year ago
- andrewstuart 1 year agoI certainly agree with this.
In Australia, tobacco is sold behind the counter. Tobacco has plain packaging and there is no advertising or promotion.
This is the way marijuana should be sold - cheap, clean, legal, available, but behind the counter and not advertised or promoted. It should not be like California or Thailand where you can go to cafes or marijuana shops.
Marijuana should not be treated as alcohol however - advertised, commercialised and glorified. Available, cheap, clean is enough.
- tester756 1 year ago>having startups with massive advertising budgets pushing it.
Hah, in my country 10-15 years ago there was huge brainwash movement pushing pro-marihuana narration, mostly music/rap/etc communities
- eep_social 1 year agoSure let’s please do the same for alcohol and caffeine.
- thsksbd 1 year agoCould we start a conversation on the externalities of alcohol consumption?
That'd be great. Lets start by putting a 100% sales tax + $1/50ml ethanol on alcohol. Let's see how inelastic alcohol consumption really is.
- l33t7332273 1 year agoWhat is the health justification for banning caffeine?
- thsksbd 1 year ago
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- teen 1 year agoit's def not as bad as alcohol... considering alcohol causes drunk driving, liver issues, obesity, stomach cancer, domestic violence
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- ForestCritter 1 year agoRegular Marijuana use has a high domestic violence rate.
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- Gigachad 1 year agoCapitalism says if people are willing to pay money for a product, then that product can buy retail space and have marketing budgets.
- fragmede 1 year agoAnd the Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement (MSA) says that we can restrict retail space and advertising venues for some products deemed harmful, especially around children.
- fragmede 1 year ago
- BirAdam 1 year ago
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- daft_pink 1 year ago
- riffic 1 year agoprohibition of cannabis has perpetuated greater harms than those it would attempt to mitigate.
- mikeweiss 1 year agoIt has, and ironically one of those harms is that in the U.S at least ...it is still illegal or incredibly difficult to do medical studies on cannabis and it's effects because it remains a controlled substance. We need to reclassify cannabis at the federal level now so that scientists are free to do research without breaking the law.
- idopmstuff 1 year agoThat looks to be happening imminently: https://www.marijuanamoment.net/congressional-researchers-sa...
- idopmstuff 1 year ago
- hedora 1 year agoJust today, I read some GOP members of the house want to deploy troops to Mexico as part of the war on drugs (with permission from the current Mexican government, but still a shooting war with the [other] cartels).
- tomrod 1 year agoAgreed.
Edit: I misread your post earlier. Apologies.
- riffic 1 year agoedit: apology accepted, glad we're on the same side here I was too lazy to argue my case anyways. the demon weed strikes again
- tomrod 1 year agoWay too much travel today for me to do anything more than lurk. Edited comment, apologies, I actually agree with you and completely missed the word "prohibition."
- tomrod 1 year ago
- riffic 1 year ago
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- mikeweiss 1 year ago
- LeoPanthera 1 year agoWait until you see what alcohol does to you.
- aurareturn 1 year agoJust because alcohol is bad for you, doesn't mean weed is good for you.
- marcod 1 year agoYes, but how bad are those two compared to each other?
- aurareturn 1 year agoI think we need to measure the negative effects of alcohol and weed at both the personal and society level.
I have my thoughts. Feel free to read through my recent post history.
- aurareturn 1 year ago
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- smt88 1 year ago> why certain substances were banned in the first place
You obviously have no idea why cannabis was banned in the US.
It wasn't banned because of harm to individuals or to society. It certainly can do those things, but there was no scientific basis for the original ban.
It was banned because of a massive propaganda campaign by Harry Anslinger, who fabricated evidence that cannabis was a drug of immigrants, non-White Americans, and criminals. Anslinger was incredibly racist and had no respect for science or the truth.
He once said, "Reefer makes darkies think they're as good as white men." If you think we're "rediscovering why [marijuana was] banned in the first place," you could not be more wrong.
- pfannkuchen 1 year agoThis is like the people who say that auto company lobbying is the cause of poor public transportation in America. Sure, that is a cause, but there are many other causes as well, and the other causes likely dominate the named cause. Framing it as the cause seems implausible and even cartoonish to me.
- zachkatz 1 year agoFor cars, it’s actually even more cartoonish than that. Read The Power Broker; auto-centric urban planning is basically entirely the result of Robert Moses’ insane power and influence (in the same way that the reason everyone has smartphones is basically solely because of Steve Jobs).
- gaganyaan 1 year agoThis is the sort of unhelpful response that says "this nit I've picked invalidates your entire point".
Why do you think other causes outweigh the well-documented efforts of Harry Anslinger?
- nemo 1 year agoIf you read the actual words and statements of the historic people fighting the actual drug war, they seem implausible and even cartoonish, and they absolutely drip with racism. While the reality was partly incredibly racist malicious actors deliberately ramping up the drug war, it was also an incredibly malicious right-wing culture war - imprisoning peace activists was a stated goal of the architects of the drug war. Nixon specifically supported it because it would imprison black folks and hippies.
- skjksjgskjb 1 year ago[dead]
- zachkatz 1 year ago
- shadowtree 1 year agoWhy is it still banned in so many other countries?
All these children here with their US-centric view.
Bring some weed to Singapore, see what happens.
- fragmede 1 year agoUS hegemony. The US makes policy for much of the world
- fragmede 1 year ago
- pfannkuchen 1 year ago
- reissbaker 1 year agoHeroin yes, but I'd be surprised if we ever re-ban cannabis — heroin was a new drug, whereas cannabis was used for millennia [1] by human societies, with criminalization only happening in the 20th century for... pretty suspect motives.
1: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/cannabis-found-alt...
- gaganyaan 1 year agoConflating marijuana, heroin, and shoplifting is kind of embarrassing. Why do you think those are comparable?
- riffic 1 year agothe prohibition of cannabis in the US had deeply racist origins. If this prohibition returns it will be for similarly racist purposes.
- zzo38computer 1 year agoThe first part is true (as far as I know from the other comments here; I do not know the history of United States much and do not live in United States, but I will assume it is true and I will believe you), but the second part is not necessarily true (we cannot figure it out ahead of time; it is possible to be true though but also possibly not).
There are other reason to be banned, e.g. to avoid second hand smoke (that is what I want to avoid, and if it can somehow be permitted in a way that restricts their use to their own personal use and not affecting the air outside for all other people/animal/trees/etc then they should do that somehow, I think).
I live in Canada and the marijuana being permitted does have the problem like I mention above, like cigarette smoking also did, so it should be considered.
- zzo38computer 1 year ago
- vhcr 1 year agoWhy was alcohol legalized then in the US?
- 1 year ago
- computerex 1 year agoCannabis was banned due largely out of racism. What is this post implying?
- hnisforfascists 1 year ago[dead]
- smt88 1 year ago
- user3939382 1 year agoJust my personal take, wouldn’t seek to push others to adopt it.
Smoking weed hurts your ability to think and learn. If you have responsibilities to children or shareholders etc you shouldn’t be doing it.
If you don’t and it doesn’t hurt others who are relying on you have at it, but still sparingly as not to be abusing your body and mind.
- jamiek88 1 year agoIf you also abstain from alcohol for the same reason then I applaud you.
Alcohol has NO safe level of consumption.
Unlike cannabis.
If you say this while consuming other drugs that are harsher and less safe then you should do some self reflection on your prejudices.
- bumby 1 year agoAre you implying there are levels of cannabis use that are zero risk?
- grugagag 1 year agoI’ve been toking for half my life. The equivalent of having a shot of wine or something mild and barely noticeable like that. I believe at this point i’m incurring close to zero risk. I have my reasons and benefits from microdosing and will continue to do so. I’m also in agreement that cannabis has become very potent, dangerous and abused.
- batch12 1 year agoPrescription drugs carry a risk. Even water use has a risk. Everything has a risk. Should someone be stoned when performing serious tasks like driving, taking care of other humans, or working? No. Can cannabis be consumed safely when not taking care of these responsibilities? Probably.
- vhcr 1 year agoGP is not implying anything, they're saying there is a safe level of consumption.
- grugagag 1 year ago
- bumby 1 year ago
- newsclues 1 year agoDo your views on smoking cannabis apply to alcohol as well?
Or do you adapt a more reasonable appropriate time and place for that type of drug?
I not sure if it hurts peoples ability to learn, even if some people have some memory impairment. But cannabis and other drugs change the way people think, and that can be good or bad depending on many factors. Have people created great creative works under the influence of cannabis? Yes. Would they have been better art if the artist had not consumed cannabis? Maybe not.
I know high functioning executives and parents who work and take care of family all day and eat an edible to go to sleep. And on Sunday night, they might smoke a joint and eat a meal with friends and discuss their next book or investment in between diaper changes.
- rapind 1 year ago> eat an edible to go to sleep.
I could care less if people get high, but as a general principle I will never consume a drug to help me sleep unless there’s a really good (doctor consulted) reason. I think we’re just setting ourselves up for an unhealthy dependence when we do that. (besides weed always had the opposite effect on me)
- zoklet-enjoyer 1 year agoI wake up at least 4 times a night and get horrible sleep unless I eat an edible before bed. Just 5mg THC helps me sleep through the night. I just started regularly consuming marijuana this past year and it's been great as a sleep aid. I've tried a couple of prescription drugs and they make me feel awful.
- zoklet-enjoyer 1 year ago
- aurareturn 1 year agoIt's easier to get addicted to weed than alcohol in my opinion.
Alcohol addiction is very noticeable. People around you also notice. Alcohol will destroy both your mind and body. You're much more likely to be aware that you're addicted to alcohol than weed.
Weed addiction is slower. It starts out as only beneficial - until it isn't. Weed will only affect your mind. Unlike alcohol, it won't directly do physical harm to your body. The negative effects to your body from weed is indirect - such as getting lazy, munchies, etc.
>I not sure if it hurts peoples ability to learn, even if some people have some memory impairment.
This has to be a joke right?
Do you have family members who are below 18? If you truly believe what you said, you'd allow them to smoke weed and go to class.
- candiddevmike 1 year agoYou're painting with a pretty broad brush there. What's so bad about being lazy? What's wrong with eating certain kinds of food?
What are your thoughts on coffee/caffeine addiction?
- candiddevmike 1 year ago
- nyolfen 1 year agothis discourse is like people reading an invisible script every time i've seen it online for the last 20 years -- "weed causes <some negative effect>", followed by a chorus of, "oh yeah well what about alcohol!?!"
- aurareturn 1 year agoYes, it's annoying to debate weed here because everyone will try to bring up alcohol.
Just because alcohol is bad for you, doesn't mean weed is good for you.
- aurareturn 1 year ago
- rapind 1 year ago
- aurareturn 1 year ago[flagged]
- jamiek88 1 year ago
- someonehere 1 year agoI don’t know what I read, but someone said weed before all of the legalization in the last ten years was 5% THC. The stuff being sold in dispensaries now is 80-95% THC. Weed went commercial and so did the potency.
Corporate America got a hold of the industry for pure profits.
- whalesalad 1 year agoSlow your roll. Anecdotal information.
You can purchase concentrates which are oils or resins at high THC percentages. These are manufactured from plant material to concentrate it not unlike making orange juice concentrate.
The theoretical physical limit of THC development in the plant is around 30%. You cannot find flower that will test much higher than that - if that.
Yes it’s more potent than it was due to - drumroll - modern agricultural practices.
This kind of misinformation parroting is really no bueno.
- bglazer 1 year agoI downvoted this because you’re making a interesting claim but it’s frankly irresponsible to not even try to source it.
- totetsu 1 year agothere was some discussion about this last week. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37430221
- totetsu 1 year ago
- whalesalad 1 year ago