Stockholm to ban petrol and diesel cars from centre from 2025

145 points by dsnr 1 year ago | 238 comments
  • CalRobert 1 year ago
    It's small, but it's a start. Next, remove as many cars as possible (some deliveries, taxis, and emergency vehicles make sense, as well as microcars for people who need them, of course).

    I'm appalled at the people here saying you need a car to lead a full life. A car-dependent life is an empty and sad one for many of us. I moved to the Netherlands with my family (two young daughters) and it has been _absolutely fantastic_ to be able to just bike.... everywhere. Or get a train. or bus. Or, sometimes, use a car-share vehicle. It's absolute freedom. And I'm a hell of a lot less worried about my kids being killed by drivers - the leading cause of dead kids in the US.

    Even here there's too many Dodge Rams though. And large SUV's - especially electric ones - are increasingly popular.

    • eptcyka 1 year ago
      Having lived in some places around Europe, my quality of life is always increased by owning a motor vehicle. I do not use it daily, I do not commute with it, but there are trips which are far more practical with a personal motor vehicle than otherwise, like fetching people from an airport, taking a pet to a vet, driving further out for a hike, hauling groceries.
      • athenot 1 year ago
        Having lived in both Europe and the US, yes you are correct that owning a vehicle does make many things more practical.

        On the flip side, being required to drive everywhere because there is no transit option is a negative impact on quality of life, especially in cities.

        Ultimately it comes down to how good the transit infrastructure is. Some cities make transit feel effortless and get you anywhere you need to be; others make you battle your way through it and lose a lot of time.

        • oakesm9 1 year ago
          The solution to this is a car sharing programme. You pay your membership and get access to a fleet of cars and vans that you can pickup whenever you like. Tax, insurance, and petrol is all covered in the price (usually) and you can pick the right vehicle size for the trip you're making (no need to own a truck for the rare occasions you need to move large items).

          Obviously not a solution for every situation, but if you only need a car occasionally then it would likely work out well.

          The "Not Just Bikes" video on this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OObwqreAJ48

          Personally I only drive once a week at most, but there isn't a car share scheme locally. If one started up that was cost effective and convinient enough then I'd consider it.

          • TheLoafOfBread 1 year ago
            Carsharing can be recommended only by somebody who never have to share a car.

            - Car won't available when you need it.

            - You will come to a car, which will have steering wheel and driver's seat in a setup incompatible with your physique, so you need to waste your time to set it back. Every. Damn. Time.

            - Car will be dirty. All the time. Dog hair, food crumbs, trash (i.e. coffee cups, cans). You will take it out and next time it will be back

            - If you are sharing with a smoker, I hope that you like smoky smell of your car.

            - Car will be always empty (gas, battery) because previous user has no incentive to fill it up.

            - Minor accidents will go unreported, and then you will be wondering, where this scratch came from, why is this mirror busted or why I need to hold my steering wheel 10 degrees to the left to drive straight.

            - Everybody will try to evade maintenance fees - You want money for winter tires? I don't drive in winter man... 2 weeks later your co-owner will want to drive, because it is his car too!

            Carsharing is a dead end and whoever will try it, will quickly revert back to his own car. Less headache.

            • eptcyka 1 year ago
              I agree, car sharing is the way to go.
            • stefs 1 year ago
              owning a car is almost always the convenient option, especially if you disregard all the downsides like the (monetary) cost to one personally and to society at large. i agree that living car-free is not practical for many, mostly those living in rural or suburban areas, but even here the car is part of the problem, having made this possible in the first place for people who shouldn't even live there. we've got to break the self-reinforcing loop on car dependency, starting with the cities. we'll lose a lot of convenience and some things will be unreasonably hard compared to before but i think it's the future and it'll pay off in increased quality of life.
              • supriyo-biswas 1 year ago
                Maybe some sort of distance-dependent taxation on cars may be a more viable option, so that people can enjoy private commutes when they absolutely need it, while still pushing people towards public transport.
                • adrianN 1 year ago
                  If you add a ban on parking on public spaces and remove parking minimums for new construction that starts to make sense. Otherwise you'll still spend 10-20% of your city real estate on cars.
                  • carlosjobim 1 year ago
                    Are you not aware of taxes on gas? What do you think is the consequence of those taxes?
                    • yencabulator 1 year ago
                      Nordic countries are generally pretty happy to tax fuel, and that acts as a distance-dependent tax on cars.
                      • orangepurple 1 year ago
                        France is like this. Massive amount of toll roads.
                        • eptcyka 1 year ago
                          This is what toll roads do, kind of.
                          • jansan 1 year ago
                            How about no? Why do you you think you need to patronize people like that?
                          • RandomLensman 1 year ago
                            I had opposite experience: not owning a car and only on occasion renting a car, using a taxi etc. made my life in big cities much easier.
                            • 1 year ago
                            • throwaway67743 1 year ago
                              I've said you don't need a car all of my life, but after moving out of capital cities it's actually reality that you do need a car, it's just not practical otherwise regardless of how good public transport infrastructure is.
                              • wwtrv 1 year ago
                                Yet the overwhelming majority of people in the Netherlands still uses cars as their primary method of transport:

                                https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

                                of course if you moved there from the USA (which I assume you did?) the car situation there is not that much better than other European countries.

                                • CalRobert 1 year ago
                                  OK, but what I love about being here is that I, personally, haven't driven a car here in two months. And there has literally never been a time where we said to ourselves "we could do it but only if we had a car" because the rare occasion where that comes up is what car-share (or van-share, etc.) is for.

                                  And that way I don't have to screw around with taking my own car to the shop for (oil changes, tyres, brake jobs, whatever), or having it inspected annually, or shopping around for insurance, etc.

                                  My original comment was about removing cars from the city centre, which is great for people who are _not_ in cars because, of course, drivers kill a lot of people and biking to school with your 6 year old is utterly TERRIFYING when someone decides to cut in front of them in a giant truck. Cars make the world worse for everyone around them (including those who are in _other_ cars!) and it's kinda rude to use one in a city.

                                  • InitialLastName 1 year ago
                                    That's not how I interpret that chart.

                                    The title says "Travel Distance per person day by main travel mode for urban mobility on all days". That is ambiguous, but suggests that the numbers are actually the share of the travel distance for peoples' main mode, meaning that people who need to travel further in a day tend to have cars, to an overwhelming extent.

                                    That is still a coherent situation in a world where most people don't use cars because their daily travel needs only involve short distances (e.g. because they live in an area where all of their needs are met within a short range).

                                • jokethrowaway 1 year ago
                                  I was happy not to have to drive when living in London but because my comparison was with places with terrible traffic.

                                  Now that I moved away to a place with better quality of life, and little to no traffic having a car is great.

                                  I can go wherever I want whenever I want.

                                  No doubt it's a symbol for freedom for many.

                                  • wenc 1 year ago
                                    > I'm appalled at the people here saying you need a car to lead a full life. A car-dependent life is an empty and sad one for many of us.

                                    As someone who loves car-less living in big cities like NYC, I think the position above is an ideological belief rather than a practical one.

                                    Every geography and lifestyle has an optimum mode of transportation. In dense urban environments, it would be a heterogeneous mix of public transit for longer distances, scooters or bikes for last mile/yard, and the occasional taxi for groceries or the like.

                                    But for those of us who have active busy lives and need to meet friends, take classes, go to events, etc. across town, our time is maximized by the use of a car if the geography admits it. I used to live in Chicago where you absolutely did not need a car, but a car saves you time, lets you explore more parts of the city, and lets you pack more activities in 5 work nights than if you had to rely on public transit and transfers between different lines.

                                    • jjav 1 year ago
                                      > A car-dependent life is an empty and sad one for many of us.

                                      I love cycling and I love to bike within town and it's great that I can get to nearly all basic needs by bike. I wish there was safe bike parking everywhere though, since the lack of it means I often can't bike there if I can't be sure it won't be stolen.

                                      Still, if you want to advocate for more bike friendly places, calling car use an empty and sad life isn't going to win any converts.

                                      Cars are immensely useful for nearly everyone, so merely banning them and hoping for the best won't work. Policies need to make alternatives attractive, at which point people will pick what's most convenient by themselves, no need to ban anything.

                                      • giardini 1 year ago
                                        "26% of The Netherlands is below sea level, and 59% of The Netherlands is vulnerable to flooding by the sea in case of high tide and severe storms." from:

                                        "How Much Of The Netherlands Is Below Sea Level?"

                                        https://netherlandsinsiders.com/how-much-of-the-netherlands-...

                                        If I were less risk-averse I'd live there too. But flooding is "Nature's way of telling" me to move.

                                        • adammarples 1 year ago
                                          May I hazard a guess that you love somewhere on the San Andreas fault?
                                      • Fatnino 1 year ago
                                        I live in the Bay Area. If I had to confine myself to public transit my quality of life would be severely degraded.

                                        There is very little outdoor/nature activity accessible to me by public transit.

                                        But if I extend my leash to a 2-3 hour car ride it opens up countless forests, beaches, mountains, ghost towns, lakes, caves, marshes, waterfalls, ...

                                        • carlosjobim 1 year ago
                                          Instead of hacker banning everything you don't personally like, isn't it better if people do what you did and move to a place where things are as they wish?

                                          Can't you be satisfied that you achieved what works for you and your family and not strive to implement your will onto the entire planet?

                                          I used to live in the outback without electricity or running water, and no cars around. It was lovely and I'll probably do it again in my life. And that is an option each one of us has. If you're sick of the city and traffic, you can go live in the sticks, where you won't have to breathe the exhaust. You can go live in a tropical island where there are no cars and only walking roads. That's not a fantasy, that's an option that exists right now. I used to live on one as well.

                                          But living away from civilization also requires self-sufficiency – something that everybody had before cars.

                                          • CalRobert 1 year ago
                                            I don't see how me wanting car-free areas in the centre of dense cities impinges on your ability to live in the sticks.
                                          • Ekaros 1 year ago
                                            Why even allow taxis? They should only be allowed for very limited purposes. Like those with mobility restrictions and non-critical healthcare. Anything else complete ban.
                                            • southernplaces7 1 year ago
                                              [flagged]
                                              • hyperman1 1 year ago
                                                I think you're reading too much into your parent's comment.

                                                I personally am pro limiting cars. But, if you have to go further than 10km or move a load of stuff around, go ahead, by all means.

                                                My personal experience with cars is daily hours of gridlock hell, with drivers screaming, cutting you off, and being generally nasty. Car sickness from the stop start stop start as bonus. I much rather take the train, do some laptop stuff or read a book, and end up 20 minutes later. I do think we in western europe overoptimized for cars, to the detriment of our children and our health. I do think an SUV generally is a sign of someone being dangerous for everybody else, with not much upside.

                                                But hollywood movies show huge roads with, presumably, hours of absolutely nothing. I don't think I've ever seen more than 1 whole km with nothing but roads and fields, but I can't blame anyone for owning a car in that kind of landscape.

                                                People have vastly different experiences, and equally different needs. Car fanatics, car haters, and everyone in between should try to acknowledge and respect that.

                                                • southernplaces7 1 year ago
                                                  I mostly agree with what you say, but for your last point about respect, I was essentially making the same argument, that one shouldn't flatly dismiss a certain practice because they themselves don't have a reason for it.

                                                  I have no problem at all with urban dwellers (or anyone) who choose not to own or drive cars. It's their choice and perfectly valid for their own reasons and needs. The same courtesy should go the other way too though.

                                                • southernplaces7 1 year ago
                                                  By all means, those who are downvoting, explain the specific thing that's wrong about what I commented. Deciding from specific, circumstantial privilege about the wrongness or rightness of others necessities in the wider world is indeed an inherently shitty habit. So too is ignoring one's own hypocrisy in deriding certain broadly used things.
                                                  • cmrdporcupine 1 year ago
                                                    Complaining about downvotes on a public forum is also a "shitty habit."

                                                    As is basically calling people names in said forum.

                                                  • CalRobert 1 year ago
                                                    My proposal for the middle of cities is not relevant to what you're saying here.
                                                    • CalRobert 1 year ago
                                                      Before living here I was in a field in rural Ireland, in case you think I lack perspective.
                                                      • morelisp 1 year ago
                                                        A priori, people who don't drive in cities are not affected by car bans in cities.
                                                        • southernplaces7 1 year ago
                                                          First of all, maybe they are. Not everyone who dirves in a city lives in that city, and might have all sorts of practical reasons for having to drive inside it regardless of where they live.

                                                          Secondly, my response was to the other comment's general disdain for cars and their owners, without specifying that they were referring to city-living car owners.

                                                    • boxed 1 year ago
                                                      It's a tiny part of the center of Stockholm. https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/bensin-och-diese... has a map. Roughly 4x4 blocks.
                                                      • nerdjon 1 year ago
                                                        I really wish we could get more pedestrian focus in the US. While this does still allow cars, it seems like it's a start.

                                                        Meanwhile in NY some people are all up in arms about the congestion toll.

                                                        In Boston a certain subset of people are losing their minds at one of our streets going pedestrian only on Saturdays during the summer.

                                                        the US really has a crazy relationship with cars

                                                        • colpabar 1 year ago
                                                          It's such a shame. Walking through the no-car areas that popped up during covid was soooooooooo nice. I didn't even have to think about the possibility of getting hit by a giant truck! Oh well, the 3 inch curb will keep me safe I guess.
                                                          • nerdjon 1 year ago
                                                            In Boston I feel like we didn't really get much of that, there was just less traffic.

                                                            Or I just didn't know about it? But I am honestly jealous. Being able to walk, not worry about cars and have plenty of room to not need to weave through slow walkers is amazing. And my health benefits from the extra walking.

                                                          • onlyrealcuzzo 1 year ago
                                                            ~50% of Americans are sedentary and obese.

                                                            They're obviously going to want cars. Walking & cycling are not options (see sedentary).

                                                            • Mawr 1 year ago
                                                              Perhaps the sedentary lifestyle is partially caused by the high car usage, so switching over to cycling would be beneficial.
                                                              • dingnuts 1 year ago
                                                                There are also disabled and elderly people. Try walking and cycling to get your groceries with multiple sclerosis or a couple bad hips.

                                                                Cars are awesome.

                                                            • hyperman1 1 year ago
                                                              It can grow. A few cities started car-free or car polution limiting zones. Every year,the zone grows and the rules get stricter.

                                                              This way makes it safe to feel the waters, tweak public transports, get people's reaction, without killing it in the cradle.

                                                              • londons_explore 1 year ago
                                                                It's pretty expensive for the city to do that. Tons of signage needs to be removed and replaced with every expansion, and if you choose automated enforcement you need to install lots of new cameras and posts too.

                                                                Easier to start with one big zone over the whole city, and keep making the requirements stricter automatically. Eg. Take the cars age, add the current year, subtract the cars rated mpg, add 10 if it's a diesel. If the result is 2050 or more, there is a fine of $20/day if you drive it.

                                                                • hanniabu 1 year ago
                                                                  > Easier to start with one big zone over the whole city, and keep making the requirements stricter automatically.

                                                                  Good luck getting your average person to not only understand this but being able to actually do the calculations. And it'll be impossible to enforce efficiently.

                                                                  • belorn 1 year ago
                                                                    The expansion is part of the official road map. Next year the first zone will be put in practice (stage one), and part of the second half next year the expanded zone is set to be drafted and a new date set for the deployment of stage 2. It is planned that stage 2 should be deployed no later than 2026.
                                                                    • thisgoesnowhere 1 year ago
                                                                      But that's hard to get political traction for.
                                                                      • alkonaut 1 year ago
                                                                        The whole city already has a congestion tax with cameras reading number plates, and of course a variable congestion fee with much higher fees at rush hours.

                                                                        The simplest way forward I think would be to just double the fees for ICE cars, and cutting them for EV's. It would be a software only solution, so cheap-ish. It would only be possible to do for the whole inner city though. Can't do it for half the city.

                                                                        • stuaxo 1 year ago
                                                                          Loads of towns in the UK have pedestrianised streets going back to the 80s, it's totally doable, and we're pretty car centric.
                                                                        • toomuchtodo 1 year ago
                                                                        • megabless123 1 year ago
                                                                          nice, sounds like a great start that is better than 0x0 blocks
                                                                          • boxed 1 year ago
                                                                            Well.. There are lots of roads that closed totally for cars over the years, and quite a few after COVID.
                                                                          • amiga386 1 year ago
                                                                            Oh thank goodness for that. Can you imagine if they were going to block Centralbron?

                                                                            Question: does this mean NK are going to have to move their flagship shop if they want any customers in future?

                                                                            • hashmush 1 year ago
                                                                              Do people really go to NK by car?!
                                                                          • teddyh 1 year ago
                                                                            Another article in English: <https://www.thelocal.se/20231010/stockholm-to-ban-petrol-and...>

                                                                            Maps here: <https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/bensin-och-diese...> and here: <https://www.dn.se/sverige/bensin-och-dieselbilar-forbjuds-i-...>. Note that the area is comparatively tiny; 180 000m² according to some articles, closer to 200 000m² according to my measurements – but in any case smaller than 50 acres.

                                                                            OpenStreetMap link to the same area as the map, so you can zoom out and see the scales involved: <https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/59.33461/18.06944>

                                                                            • yobbo 1 year ago
                                                                              Also; it is not a residential area. There are mostly office buildings and shopping centers there. It will require delivery trucks to be at least hybrids.
                                                                              • scatters 1 year ago
                                                                                OpenStreetMap has the zone as a map feature: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/127782964
                                                                                • paganel 1 year ago
                                                                                  I see they went with the "think of the children":

                                                                                  > The study found that children who grow up on roads in the capital with particularly high emissions have worse-than-average lung capacity when compared to other children, from as early as six months old.

                                                                                  This will only accelerate the move to the suburbs of the families having children themselves and who can't yet afford an EV, leaving the cities themselves (as I suspect similar moves will be applied elsewhere here in Europe) to young people without kids, to immigrant people with kids but not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car) and to the "pied-a-terres" of the few upper-middle class people who will afford to have EVs (who will also own property in the suburbs, for that matter).

                                                                                  • reisse 1 year ago
                                                                                    > not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car)

                                                                                    American life experience, you mean? It's totally OK to live in Stockholm, as well as in many other cities in Europe, without a car. Besides, you make it sound like EVs are more expensive than ICE cars. They surely are, but the difference is not that much and subsidies cover a part of it.

                                                                                    • Nullabillity 1 year ago
                                                                                      > It's totally OK to live in Stockholm

                                                                                      Not really. You can usually (sort of) take public transport to commute into the centre, but try to do anything else and the model falls apart quickly.

                                                                                      • wwtrv 1 year ago
                                                                                        > It's totally OK to live in Stockholm, as well as in many other cities in Europe

                                                                                        And/or having a car is too expensive for some so people make do..

                                                                                        • robertlagrant 1 year ago
                                                                                          > you make it sound like EVs are more expensive than ICE cars. They surely are

                                                                                          Glad you both agree!

                                                                                        • f6v 1 year ago
                                                                                          How does Western life experience necessitate a car? Big cities don’t require a car at all.
                                                                                          • Slava_Propanei 1 year ago
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                                                                                            • DrThunder 1 year ago
                                                                                              Why is what's "required" a consideration? Almost nothing in modern life is required. You don't need AC, heat, refrigeration, video games, movies etc. NONE of that is a requirement and it all contributes to climate change.

                                                                                              Part of living in a free society is that you get to have things that aren't required. IF I want to buy the biggest gas guzzling truck there is, I should have the right to do so since I'll be spending my $80k+ of money on it.

                                                                                              • paganel 1 year ago
                                                                                                > How does Western life experience necessitate a car?

                                                                                                First of all, taking your kids by car to a much better school. Because we sure as hell cannot afford to own property close to those better schools.

                                                                                              • V__ 1 year ago
                                                                                                > having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car)

                                                                                                This is just not accurate.

                                                                                                • poniko 1 year ago
                                                                                                  Generally people with children dont live in the center of Stockholm and a high % already drive electric. Biggest change is that delivery/transport services have to find alternatives and Im really happy about that, everyone benifit from removing "heavy loud polluting traffic" in the city.
                                                                                                  • qwytw 1 year ago
                                                                                                    > "heavy loud polluting traffic" in the city.

                                                                                                    yeah, that's great but.. Modern engines are already pretty "clean", significant proportion (if not the majority?) of PM 2.5 and PM 0.1 particles come from breaks and tires so EV are not really the solution for inner city pollution.

                                                                                                    (and the effect on CO2 emissions is immaterial in this case)

                                                                                                    • paganel 1 year ago
                                                                                                      > Generally people with children dont live in the center of Stockholm and a high % already drive electri

                                                                                                      So I guess the process was already under way, as it already is too expensive to have a typical Western life in downtown-ish Stockholm. I fail to see how moves like this one would help with those expenses.

                                                                                                    • rsynnott 1 year ago
                                                                                                      > not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car)

                                                                                                      Wait, what's this "Western-life experience" I'm missing out on by not having a car? Having lived in Western Europe all my life, I seem to have missed the memo about this.

                                                                                                      • paddim8 1 year ago
                                                                                                        You don't need a car in central stockholm. Poor people wouldn't even have a petrol car. Public transport is much cheaper and highly convenient.
                                                                                                        • andyjohnson0 1 year ago
                                                                                                          Do you actually have any evidence that this will happen? Or is this just an evidence-free rant?
                                                                                                          • polygamous_bat 1 year ago
                                                                                                            Unfortunately, in my experience, to people who are concerned about “immigrant people with kids but not-interested in having a full Western-life experience (which necessitates having a car)”, this is what counts as a logical complaint.
                                                                                                            • paganel 1 year ago
                                                                                                              I'm already seeing that flight to the suburbs happening here in Bucharest, yes. And, yes, the most recent census has confirmed that flight to the suburbs, that is for your "non-evidence rant" part of your comment.
                                                                                                              • wwtrv 1 year ago
                                                                                                                It increases the cost of living in those areas, so what they are saying makes sense just because of that.
                                                                                                              • threemux 1 year ago
                                                                                                                I don't think this deserves to be downvoted. Alas the "you'll own nothing and you'll like it" / "you'll go where we say according to our schedules and you'll like it" crowd is strong here.

                                                                                                                You're right of course that not having a car self-evidently limits the things you can do (yes even in your country that has flawless transit that is free and goes "everywhere"), and is even worse if you have children. Want to go to the country to relax? You're limited to the places you can get by transit. Kid wants to do something that isn't near a transit stop? Too bad. Visiting relatives outside the city? Better hope you can get a ride from the nearest transit stop. The list goes on and on.

                                                                                                                Being able to walk places is desirable, but it's best when you can walk/bike and drive a car if you need to.

                                                                                                                • londons_explore 1 year ago
                                                                                                                  In some countries, every single house or business is either walking distance from a transit stop, or for the few exceptions there is a taxpayer funded 'bus' service that operates like a taxi.
                                                                                                                  • geraneum 1 year ago
                                                                                                                    “You will drink nothing behind the wheel until we approve it.”

                                                                                                                    “You will wear this belt because we say so. You have no freedom.”

                                                                                                                    If _they_ don’t want you to go somewhere, your car surely won’t take you there.

                                                                                                              • jeffbee 1 year ago
                                                                                                                Interesting that this bans PHEVs, because that is a substantial share of the EVs sold in Sweden, being about a third of EV sales and a fifth of total car sales recently. It seems like this will help kill the category.
                                                                                                                • cmrdporcupine 1 year ago
                                                                                                                  Can't speak to Sweden, but it is a shame what has happened with the PHEV category generally. I drive a Volt and it's a fantastic car in that it's really more like "electric car that also has a gas engine" vs the bulk of PHEVs on the market which are really "hybrid that can be plugged in to get a few miles of somewhat-gas free driving."

                                                                                                                  The latter seem to have been designed and sold mainly to skirt some regulations and take advantage of subsidies; along with a sometimes-hefty price increase.

                                                                                                                  We also own a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV and while it's a fine SUV and family mover, it uses the ICE constantly, while I drive my Volt for months without ever using the combustion engine (to the point where it has to run a "maintenance cycle" to stop the gas from going bad).

                                                                                                                  Meanwhile the Volt was killed off by GM. It's a shame because I feel like consumers would have responded more positively to electrification if more cars like this had been rolled out and the engineering (and marketing and sales) had been taken more seriously on them.

                                                                                                                  • jeffbee 1 year ago
                                                                                                                    Around here the Clarity PHEV are seen daily (I own one). I don't know if that was because of subsidies/incentives or what. In my use case the ~35 mile EV range is perfect and like you I experience the engine running only when the computer commands maintenance cycles, or if I take a long trip and it flips into HV mode. Considering the embodied energy of a full EV especially in the year that I bought the Clarity, I still think it was the right choice at the time.
                                                                                                                    • cmrdporcupine 1 year ago
                                                                                                                      Yeah the Clarity was only really produced in volume as a compliance car in states that mandated it, though. It never really showed up around here (Ontario) for example.

                                                                                                                      Whereas GM rolled out the Volt across all their dealerships everywhere -- though obviously sales only really happened in places with incentives.

                                                                                                                      Technically on paper the Clarity PHEV looks on par with the Volt; but Honda didn't really want to sell it ... and GM killed the Volt. So that category of vehicle (range assisted EV instead of "PHEV") seems DOA.

                                                                                                                  • natch 1 year ago
                                                                                                                    Good. A PHEV is an EV in the same way a gold-plated lead ingot is a gold ingot.
                                                                                                                  • userinanother 1 year ago
                                                                                                                    In Seattle we still allow cars at pike place market. Talk about stupid
                                                                                                                    • morelisp 1 year ago
                                                                                                                      However small it is, it seems far preferable to Berlin's approach of building a highway down the middle while simultaneously refusing to even consider the 2035 target.
                                                                                                                      • jansan 1 year ago
                                                                                                                        Why? Cars are the most convenient way of transportation.
                                                                                                                    • 1 year ago
                                                                                                                      • throwaw33333434 1 year ago
                                                                                                                        I wonder why when Stockholm did it, it made the news, but, say Kraków did it we don't see it. City pays for PR?
                                                                                                                        • Tade0 1 year ago
                                                                                                                          Does it matter? Kraków is doing its own thing without much fanfare and I think it's great.

                                                                                                                          I went there a few weeks ago for the first time in 6 years or so and could easily identify positive changes that make living there more pleasant.

                                                                                                                          Also while driving was a little slow (as usual), I had no problem finding (paid) parking close to the old town.

                                                                                                                          • belorn 1 year ago
                                                                                                                            Kraków is a low emission zone, not a zero emission zone which is what Stockholm is doing. It not the first EU initiative for ZEZ, but it seems more often that ZEZ get implemented by making it a car-free area.

                                                                                                                            To add more context: "The first phase of the Krakow LEZ will restrict vehicles with EU exhaust emission standards Euro 1 petrol and Euro 2 diesel vehicles, before tightening restrictions further in 2026. After then, only cars with a minimum norm Euro 3 for petrol and Euro 5 for diesel will be allowed in the city (20% of the current fleet will be affected). "

                                                                                                                            • mikkelam 1 year ago
                                                                                                                              Are you talking about the Low Emission Zone? That seems to be a reduction of high emission cars and not really a total ban as described in the article.
                                                                                                                              • carlosjobim 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                There's probably a lot of Swedes here from the Reddit exodus.
                                                                                                                                • stuaxo 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                  Probably just sends a press release.
                                                                                                                                • 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                  • rajnathani 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                    We also need to reach a point where all vehicles have technology like this [0] to capture tyre wear particles at the source.

                                                                                                                                    [0] https://www.designboom.com/technology/device-captures-harmfu...

                                                                                                                                    • almatabata 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                      I wonder if this ban only includes privately owned cars. They have those amphibienbuses that uses an ICE engine:

                                                                                                                                      https://oceanbus.se/en/

                                                                                                                                      I guess they will either shutdown or get an exemption somehow.

                                                                                                                                      • morelisp 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                        The reactions to this absolutely minimum possible move - "don't drive a specific kind of car in this tiny high street area unless you really need to" - are ranging from disingenuous to genuinely unhinged. I have no remaining hope for transit policy.
                                                                                                                                        • matthewfelgate 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                          How are you going to enforce a plan on petrol and diesel cars in certain areas?
                                                                                                                                          • pera 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                            I think it's absolutely crazy that our society is OK with car drivers polluting the air with carcinogenic particles. I hope more cities around the world implement similar bans soon.
                                                                                                                                            • qwytw 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                              EVs are not the solution for that, brake and tire wear contribute to as much or more PM2.5 and 2-3 times more PM10 pollution than modern ICEs. Also while there will be some improvement it will be possibly partially outweighed by the fact the EVs generally weight more.

                                                                                                                                              Of course we can just ignore that which is not at all crazy...

                                                                                                                                              Edit: I'm certainly not using this as argument to not ban ICE vehicles in city centers. However switching to EVs is not a good longterm solution. e.g. there won't be any incentives for massively increasing investment into public transport because everyone can just drive a "clean" EV.

                                                                                                                                              *I'm not saying that brake and tire wear is that much higher for EVs, rather that if we only look at ICE vehicles tires/breaks are as big a source of PM 2.5 as the engine itself.

                                                                                                                                              • jackyinger 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                Yeah, the obvious solution is to make smaller lighter vehicles. We’ve built EVs in the image of ICE vehicles, so they’re big and heavy.

                                                                                                                                                There are a lot of people who are driving an EV with several hundred miles of range to work less than 20 miles away. That extra order of magnitude of battery capacity is a lot of extra weight. Imagine I’d you could instead rent a battery trailer for those occasional long trips?

                                                                                                                                                I think e-bikes are the way to go, tho perhaps we can define a new and smaller class of vehicles with cabins and/or inherent stability for those unable to ride.

                                                                                                                                                • stuaxo 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                  Yes, I wonder which vested interests pushed the whole "range anxiety" and now they benefit from the cars being heavy in that they can point out the pollution.

                                                                                                                                                  All cars need to get smaller again, EVs should have automatic charging when parked and when waiting in traffic jams.

                                                                                                                                                  EVs are not the solution but they are a stop gap.

                                                                                                                                                  • carlosjobim 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                    This is the funny thing every time hackers discuss vehicles and traffic, always gives me a chuckle.

                                                                                                                                                    The smaller and lighter vehicles you all are trying to invent, already exist in the hundreds of millions! And have existed for almost as long as cars. They are cheap to buy, cheap to ride, release very little exhaust, doesn't need decaying batteries or rare-earth minerals to make, won't run over your kids and won't make traffic jams.

                                                                                                                                                    Also they can get you to where you're going faster than any EV or SUV.

                                                                                                                                                    They're called motorcycles.

                                                                                                                                                    Edit: Not to mention that electric motorcycles are great rides.

                                                                                                                                                  • cheema33 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                    EVs don't use brakes as much as ICE vehicles because of automatic regenerative braking. This converts your forward momentum back into electricity. ICE vehicles use engine braking or brake pads. Both of those are much worse in more ways than one.

                                                                                                                                                    You might want to cross that off your list of things to complain about when talking about EVs.

                                                                                                                                                    • hunter2_ 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                      The instant torque does blow through tires though. Maybe twice as fast as a typical ICE vehicle? The acceleration on a Tesla is like very, very premium ICE cars that few people have (>300HP). This could easily be tuned out, but that would cripple the thrill, i.e., bad for sales.
                                                                                                                                                    • 1234letshaveatw 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                      There is absolutely no way that brake wear is higher for EVs. I can practically drive my entire morning commute without braking a single time in my Bolt. Any study that says otherwise is seriously flawed or ignoring one pedal driving.
                                                                                                                                                      • sampo 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                        Electric cars are good for both aggressive driving (lots acceleration and brake use), and also for energy-efficient driving (almost no use of brakes, slow down by converting speed back to electricity). I wonder which one dominates in city driving in practice?
                                                                                                                                                        • hunter2_ 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                          What if EVs (actually, any cars) were programmed for geofencing where acceleration is limited in pedestrian-focused areas based on municipal ordinances? Braking wouldn't be limited (so this is more directly reducing tire particles than brake dust) but I think a lot of city braking would naturally fall off a cliff without excessive acceleration.
                                                                                                                                                          • mywittyname 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                            You probably don't need to go crazy with stuff like that. Speed cameras seem like effective deterrents. When I drove around the UK, speed cameras were everywhere and people generally all did the speed limit or below.

                                                                                                                                                            The USA has a weird cultural obsession with being able to break certain laws. We need to rethink that. If we aren't enforcing laws, then we need to get rid of them, if we don't want to get rid of them, then we need to enforce them.

                                                                                                                                                          • elric 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                            That's probably true if you only look at the cars themselves, but don't forget that getting petrol in cars requires a huge petrochemical industry, from oil wells to refineries, pipelines and pumping stations. Each of those steps also emits all kinds of crap. The same is true for electricity from many sources, but overall I suspect EVs come out somewhat better than petrol cars.

                                                                                                                                                            Of course, cars are generally too big, too heavy, and too fast. Addressing those issues would benefit everyone, regardless of fuel source.

                                                                                                                                                            • qwytw 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                              Yeah, my argument is mainly about pollution in inner cities/densely populated areas (where just switching to EV certainly does not go far enough)
                                                                                                                                                            • mywittyname 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                              Regenerative braking drastically reduces brake pad wear. At full regenerative braking, some EVs can decelerate at ~0.4G using only the engine.

                                                                                                                                                              Another (expensive) solution would be carbon ceramic brakes. These used to be for "race cars" but people found that they are too expensive to replace if you track the car, so people use iron brakes on the track, and carbon ceramics on the street. Carbon ceramics will last 100k+ miles under normal street use and they keep the wheels free of brake dust.

                                                                                                                                                              • bearjaws 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                This is a common misinformation campaign against EVs. First of all, EVs use far less brake material than gas cars. E.g. Most Teslas run the same pads for 100k+ miles due to strong regenerative braking, for me it was triple the longevity of brake pads on my Audi.

                                                                                                                                                                As for the tire emissions, you are likely quoting the worst case scenario that was devised by emissionsanalytics. The reality is, that was a worst case scenario, if you actually saw tire wear that was significantly more polluting than traditional cars you would have tires that go bald in a very short period of time.

                                                                                                                                                                For example, the Micheline Pilot Sport all seasons that come on the Tesla Model 3 are rated for 45k miles, but typically get around 35-40k miles depending on driving habits. That is only 13-26% more tread loss depending on driving style. So how is it possible the tires are losing significantly more tread (and as a consequence, polluting more) but also lasting a long time?

                                                                                                                                                                • qwytw 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                  > So how is it possible the tires are losing significantly more tread (and as a consequence, polluting more) but also lasting a long time?

                                                                                                                                                                  Sorry, I probably phrased it in a confusing way, I was comparing the ratio between tire/brake and ICE PM 2.5 emissions for normal cars not saying that EVs are that much worse (the part about weight is just speculation).

                                                                                                                                                                • pornel 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                  This is a misleading whataboutism.

                                                                                                                                                                  EVs use primarily regen for braking, so they contribute almost no brake wear. And that isn't even a problem.

                                                                                                                                                                  It matters what is emitted. Tire wear particles are relatively large, and don't stay in the air.

                                                                                                                                                                  Anti-EV disinformation uses the trick of counting pollution by weight, which completely discounts gaseous emissions, which is the real pollution that people breathe in.

                                                                                                                                                                  • dang 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                    Please make your substantive points without internet tropes like "whataboutism" and "disinformation", which are really just forms of name-calling at this point. Your comment would be fine without those bits.

                                                                                                                                                                    This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

                                                                                                                                                                  • musasabi 1 year ago
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                                                                                                                                                                    • oittaa 1 year ago
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                                                                                                                                                                    • Fyrezerk 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                      Do you not realize how much of modern society relies on cars and trucks as a mode of transport? It's asinine to think you can just get rid of them in most parts of the world and continue life as usual.
                                                                                                                                                                      • krona 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                        As far I know there is no known carcinogenicity risk with carbon monoxide, nitrogen dioxide or sulphur dioxide so what are you referring to?
                                                                                                                                                                      • ugjka 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                        With the quality of life there, they can afford such measures
                                                                                                                                                                        • Moldoteck 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                          Yep, considering they have good public transport especially in center, this measure is logical. Imo they should ban any car except service/delivery/etc in center but I guess small steps are better than none
                                                                                                                                                                        • Slava_Propanei 1 year ago
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                                                                                                                                                                          • DrThunder 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                            Sounds like they need the London treatment.
                                                                                                                                                                            • hkon 1 year ago
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                                                                                                                                                                              • ecmascript 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                As a Swede born and raised in Stockholm but no longer live there I wonder if delivery trucks and people working (carpenters etc) will be excempt from these rules? This is a serious question because the changes comes (mainly) from a radical left wing political party that had deliveries on the subway as a serious solution to banning car traffic.

                                                                                                                                                                                Personally I don't really care since I don't live in Stockholm anymore but that city is very hostile against car traffic in general (which is stupid in my opinion). Finding a parking space in the outskirts of the city is very hard and I have searched for a spot in like an hour when visiting my family. They build a lot of housing but no parking spaces for residents. Sometimes if you're lucky they'll build like 1 parking space per 20 residents when in reality 19 of these residents have a car. I know personally some areas close to my mother where they have taken areas for parking and built housing there making the actual parking spaces go negative.

                                                                                                                                                                                Fine if you want to get rid of petrol/diesel but there are alternatives and you don't have to make things shitty for people with electric cars as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                I think people will start moving from Stockholm because who wants to live in a city where housing is 3-4 times the national avg, people being shot all the time and even blown up when in bed in your own home. Then the politicians responsible cares more about making it more expensive for you to go to work which all seems more meaningless since you pay so much in taxes that goes to immigration and people not contributing to society.

                                                                                                                                                                                Productive will move to the country side where they can safely drive to work and work less because working hard is just not worth it in Sweden.

                                                                                                                                                                                • thebiss 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                  The article indicates there will be some exceptions:

                                                                                                                                                                                  > While it is primarily intended to allow for only fully electric cars, bigger vans with plug-in hybrid engines will also be allowed, and exceptions will be made for ambulances and police cars, as well as cars in which the driver or passenger has a documented disability

                                                                                                                                                                                  • ecmascript 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                    So I guess the imported soy lattes of those who made the rule changes are going to have a price increase due to delivery companies that need to upgrade their fleet. ;D
                                                                                                                                                                                    • hef19898 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                      Amazon Logistics is in the process of going fully electric, as are others. The supply of EV and hybrid vans is there, the demand as well as soon as tze existing fleets are going to be replaced as usual.
                                                                                                                                                                                  • estomagordo 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                    The party is hardly "radical" by any standard means of measure, and there is not a single indicator that population growth in Stockholm will come to a halt. You're merely making the mistake of assuming that others are like you.
                                                                                                                                                                                    • ecmascript 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                      What standard means of measure are you referring to exactly?

                                                                                                                                                                                      I guess time will tell, but if you look at statistics many country side smaller cities are growing when in the past they were shrinking for a really long time. The wind is vänding.

                                                                                                                                                                                    • morelisp 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                      Why can carpenters not drive electric vehicles?
                                                                                                                                                                                      • ecmascript 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                        Usually because they are too small but that will also force everyone to buy new cars which isn't exactly ideal for the climate or the economy of these people affected. Cars in Sweden already cost like the double amount of a car in the US.
                                                                                                                                                                                        • morelisp 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                          > Usually because they are too small

                                                                                                                                                                                          Delivery vehicles are usually larger than a carpenter's, and are already electrifying most places.

                                                                                                                                                                                          > that will also force everyone to buy new cars

                                                                                                                                                                                          "Everyone" meaning, laborers servicing that area? Strange definition of "everyone".

                                                                                                                                                                                      • edpichler 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                        I agree with you.

                                                                                                                                                                                        It is an emotional decision. Politics is all about emotionalism. Now everybody that like or work there will need to have buy a te$la or pole$tar.

                                                                                                                                                                                        • hashmush 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                          I live quite far from Stockholm and commute there by train. My office is just outside of the zone.

                                                                                                                                                                                          Most people I know at work own a car, but no one drives to work. Why would they?

                                                                                                                                                                                          Seems like people driving in downtown Stockholm are the kind of people that can afford EVs anyway. (Of course, disabled people etc. But they are also covered by the new rules.)

                                                                                                                                                                                          • estomagordo 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                            What could possibly be more rational than designing cities for people, rather than cars, and pushing society away from petrol cars?
                                                                                                                                                                                            • edpichler 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                              It's complicated for non-millionaries follow some rules. Not everybody can afford to have EV and some people depend of a car to carry tools to go to work.
                                                                                                                                                                                        • torcete 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                          It will probably make the city quieter and cleaner, but wouldn't make it also exclusive for people that can afford an electric car?
                                                                                                                                                                                          • stuaxo 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                            It's four blocks, you could drive to where you can park and then walk.
                                                                                                                                                                                          • Nullabillity 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                            Maybe focus on building out a competent public transport system first, rather than halving the capacity of the commuter rail. Or fix the several islands (both literal and metaphorical) that are effectively cut off from the main system.

                                                                                                                                                                                            It's like these people live in a parallel reality where nobody needs to get in our out of the inner city.

                                                                                                                                                                                            • Etheryte 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                              In my experience, the public transport system in Stockholm is pretty fine, is there a specific qualm you have with it? You don't have to be able to drive your car directly into the heart of the city.
                                                                                                                                                                                              • martindbp 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                "Pretty fine"? More like world class considering it's a city of just ~2m.
                                                                                                                                                                                                • Zee38484 1 year ago
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                                                                                                                                                                                                • onlyrealcuzzo 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                  A parallel reality where you can't drive 4 blocks away and walk?

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I love how cars are entitled to every inch of the city.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • SiempreViernes 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Can you explain how changing pollution standards for a few bocks around NK has anything to do with the massive loss of public transport ridership that is triggering the cuts in service?
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • paddim8 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Stockholm has great public transport?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      • Nullabillity 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Not at all. Anywhere further out like Nacka or Täby are nightmares to get to. Or if neither start nor destination is in the inner city. Or if it's after ~1AM. Or if service in your area is havily reduced (or shut down entirely!) because MTR can't be bothered to respect their drivers. Or if you're in an Arriva area, period.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Maybe it looks brilliant if you're used to some US shithole. But even at its best it can't hold a candle to somewhere like the Copenhagen metro. And even that pales when compared to the trusty car that will take you from anywhere, to anywhere, whenever you want.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Source: lived in Stockholm for 8 years so far, half of which were carless.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    • verisimi 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                      The people in nordic countries seem so naive to me. They trust their governments, their authorities to do this stuff, to both determine the greater good and then implement it. The political class couldn't possibly act immorally, for their own benefit, apparently.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Whereas the reality is that these actions are preplanned internationally and designed (by opaque agencies such the club of Rome and the UN) in order for individuals to have less control over their lives - shifting that control to the governance structure. Did anyone discuss the transfer of control, agree to it, vote on it?

                                                                                                                                                                                                      It's quite amazing to me that people are going to lose freedom of movement, will pay more etc and be happy to do so. Turkeys voting for Christmas.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • hashmush 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                        > The people in nordic countries seem so naive to me. They trust their governments, their authorities to do this stuff, to both determine the greater good and then implement it. The political class couldn't possibly act immorally, for their own benefit, apparently.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Not everyone is happy with this change, if that makes you feel better.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Also, this is implemented by the city, by real people (yes, politicians are people) that Stockholmers voted for.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Political class as a concept doesn't make much sense in Sweden, just FYI.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        • pornel 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                          US seems to be an exception in the developed world with such high distrust of the government.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          It's probably a self-fulfilling expectation: the government can't be effective without trust. Without support, it can't pass strong regulations that make a difference. So you get an ineffective government, and watered-down lobbied laws that easily fall to regulatory capture, and you can say "told you so!"

                                                                                                                                                                                                          • peyton 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                            I guess, though there’s a lot more money at stake. The US federal government is probably the most powerful bureaucracy in human history (and certainly among the biggest). I trust my local and state governments way more. But I wouldn’t trust them to run the whole country. Scale seems to matter a lot.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          • rsynnott 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                            > It's quite amazing to me that people are going to lose freedom of movement

                                                                                                                                                                                                            This isn't what "freedom of movement" means.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            • gruturo 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                              You know what's even more shocking about the attitude of the nordic countries? It works pretty nicely, try visiting those places.
                                                                                                                                                                                                              • londons_explore 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                The huge oil reserves and tiny population make it much easier to give everyone a good quality of life...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                It also masks the effects of inefficient decisionmaking.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                • hef19898 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Only Norway has oil so, Denmark Sweden and Finland much less so.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                • hef19898 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  But those countries are socialist hell holes! /s

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Of course they are not, and trusting the government to do the right thing isn't too bad a position neither. After, we vote for them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                • londons_explore 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  These people did vote in their governments, and for the most part they're happy with the decisions of those they voted in.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • V__ 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It seems that more and more conspiracies are leaking to HN, sad really.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • verisimi 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Do you think that conspiring doesn't occur? Do you think the media will inform you about what is going on at a supra-national level?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • M2Ys4U 1 year ago
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