Antidepressants or Tolkien

463 points by mdturnerphys 1 year ago | 99 comments
  • blooalien 1 year ago
    I'm really surprised at what a challenge that turned out to be. I was certain I was gonna have no problems distinguishing drugs from Tolkien characters, but I only got 15/24 in the end. Recognized a few obvious brand names and characters, but half the time I had to resort to straight-up guessing. Some of those drug names totally sound like Tolkien characters.
    • ren_engineer 1 year ago
      it's actually a due to a research field created/popularized by Tolkien

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonaesthetics

      all about studying pleasant sounding words, big pharma uses it for naming drugs. "Cellar door" was one of Tolkien's favorite phrases, you can see variations and modifications of it in many fantasy settings

      >Tolkien, Lewis, and others have suggested that cellar door's auditory beauty becomes more apparent the more the word is dissociated from its literal meaning, for example, by using alternative spellings such as Selador, Selladore, Celador, Selidor

      • retrac 1 year ago
        There's a related field, phonosemantics, about the inherent meaning of a word because of how it sounds. (Words which sound like what they should sound like are, I would guess, pleasing.) Onomatopoeia fall in this category: bang, crash, pow, glug-glug.

        Teensy eensy tiny itty bitty little bit. All /e/ and /i/ front vowels. The mouth is literally closed up. Grand large vast ginormous expansive gargantuan. All /a/ back vowels. The mouth is literally relaxed and open. There are of course exceptions (big, small being notable) but English has a strong tendency in this way with size terms. Big = back and open vowel. Small = front and close vowel. This tendency isn't restricted to English; it shows up across languages in unrelated language families.

        One of the classic linguistics experiments is Bouba and Kiki [1]. One of these shapes is called Bouba, and one is called Kiki. As you probably already instinctively know, the one on the right is Bouba, and the one on the left is Kiki. Arabic, Japanese, English, Swahili speakers all agree on this, with like 90% or greater concord across cultures being typical.

        And one thing I noticed myself I haven't seen written about elsewhere. Take a look at the letter forms for how we write these sounds. In English: Bouba, Kiki. In Japanese: ボウバ and キキ. In Arabic: بوبا and كيكي. Bouba is written with round glyphs that enclose spaces. Kiki is written with sharp straight lines. Maybe that is just a coincidence. I haven't done a larger sampling than those three writing systems.

        Other patterns tend to show up within a language, but not cross-linguistically, and are probably arbitrary associations formed simply because of existing patterns. For example with English:

        * gl- : related to light -- glance, glare, glass, gleam, glimmer, glint, glisten, glitter, gloaming, gloom, gloss, glow

        * sw- : related to a long movement - sway, sweep, swerve, swing, swipe, swirl, swoop, swoosh

        The last three are very fun: swirl, swoop, swoosh. Swirl ends in -rl which literally curls (oh, there's that rl again) the tongue. A swoop ends with a stop consonant. Accordingly, it has more finality, suddenness, than swoosh. So: a bird swoops in to grab its prey. And a bird swooshes by, when it misses that prey.

        [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Booba-Ki...

        • indigoabstract 1 year ago
          I've noticed that too. It's like some form of synesthesia, where one sense (audio in this case) influences perception in another seemingly unrelated sense (visuals).

          And, perhaps related, in addition to their regular meaning, a lot of things seem to also have an inherent symbolic value. Like going up/going down, on top/at the bottom, sharp/blunt, clear/foggy, etc.

          I think that most people, when asked, would prefer going up to going down, even though they have to push against gravity.

          • adastra22 1 year ago
            "slithering snakes"
          • Semaphor 1 year ago
            > "Cellar door" was one of Tolkien's favorite phrases

            Oh cool, so that is where Donnie Darko got it from ("the most beautiful word in the English language")

            • misstuned 1 year ago
              There is, or was, a radio/TV company in Europe called Celador - I always wondered where the odd-sounding name came from.
              • SamFold 1 year ago
                Also the name of the island where the dragons live in Ursula Leguin’s books. (Written Selidor)
                • collaborative 1 year ago
                  Also means jail keeper in Spanish
              • jltsiren 1 year ago
                None of the drug names sounded like Tolkien characters to me. I guess native English speakers are at a disadvantage, because they are more likely to consider the names as they would be pronounced in English. The intended pronunciation is usually close to Classical Latin, which means that pronouncing the names in any other European language is likely closer to the truth. And when you pronounce the names in that language, Tolkien characters and drugs tend to sound different.
                • sspiff 1 year ago
                  I'm European and I studied Latin for 6 years in high school and yet I found the test very challenging.
                  • fikama 1 year ago
                    You got me interested, could you say more about how are doing this? What exactly sounds different to you, and maybe what is your first language too. I am European but my first language is polish so in this context it is useless :P
                    • jltsiren 1 year ago
                      My first language is Finnish, which has a very straightforward correspondence between spelling and pronunciation.

                      I would divide the drug names into four categories based on how they sound:

                      Obviously a substance: Amantidine, Sildenafil

                      Generic fantasy names / pronounceable strings with no meaning: Azafen, Clédial, Cymbalta, Desyrel, Edronax, Luvox

                      Could be Tolkienian, but it's spelled wrong: Sintamil

                      Could be Tolkienian, but the final syllable is wrong: Elronon, Eskalith, Nardil

                      Additionally, the two Tolkien characters I had to guess were both kings of Gondor: Minalcar and Narmacil. Their names are in Quenya, while the commonly used names for elves etc. are in Sindarin, which sounds different.

                    • dawatchusay 1 year ago
                      So you were 100% correct on the test?
                      • jltsiren 1 year ago
                        I got 23/24 this time, as I guessed one Tolkien character wrong. The last time I saw this test, maybe a couple of years ago, I got 24/24.
                    • steve_adams_86 1 year ago
                      Yeah, wow. It’s been years since I read and watched, but I expected this to be challenging for the uninitiated. That crushed me. I guess I just lost a bunch of nerd cred.

                      It’s bizarre that I did about as well at getting drug names correct, and I can’t say I’m well versed in those.

                      • jhbadger 1 year ago
                        It depends if you've read The Silmarillion or not. Pretty much all the obscure Tolkien characters are from that and had no problem recognizing them. Also, they included accent marks on some of the names which is a dead give away (I can't think of any drug name that uses those). Still, if your exposure to Tolkien is just LOTR, I could see how this could be difficult.
                        • thedanbob 1 year ago
                          > Also, they included accent marks on some of the names which is a dead give away (I can't think of any drug name that uses those).

                          There actually was one, Clédial. It caught me out because I was thinking the same thing.

                        • blooalien 1 year ago
                          Hey, thanks to everyone who responded to this comment with interesting and educational tidbits. That's the sort of stuff I very much appreciate about HackerNews. Can always count on finding new and interesting knowledge to explore here.
                          • BerislavLopac 1 year ago
                            24/24 here :P
                          • saghm 1 year ago
                            Two of my favorites of this genre are "Ikea Furniture or Metal Band" and "Drug or Pokemon". I did terribly at the first one since I don't know enough metal I guess, but I aced the latter, despite realizing that "Remoraid" actually does sound more like some sort of join pain cream or something than a pokemon.
                          • second_brekkie 1 year ago
                            21/24 That was fun, also surprised by the difficulty.

                            Kept slipping up on the less known Gondorian kings.

                            Also if your a filthy casual like me and cba to re-read the Silmarilion, Nerd of the Rings is a, solid YT channel.

                            https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCW0gH2G-cMKAEjEkI4YhnPA

                            • geuis 1 year ago
                              23 of 24. Missed the last one due to a miss click.

                              (I've read the Silmarillion too much it seems.)

                            • frutiger 1 year ago
                              If you’ve read The Silmarillion it’s not too difficult, as Elvish names have common construction patterns and sounds.
                              • philsnow 1 year ago
                                I've read the Silmarillion several times, read through [0] and [1] each once, and I still mostly got tripped up on all the kings of Gondor who sound apparently a lot like antidepressants (I got 18/24).

                                [0] https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Middle-Earth-Published-W... [1] https://www.amazon.com/Languages-Tolkiens-Middle-Earth-Compl...

                                • jonny_eh 1 year ago
                                  This comment, its content and tone, is why I came here.
                                • chongli 1 year ago
                                  I’ve read the Silmarillion and I got 12/24. Granted, I read it about 25 years ago, so I probably didn’t pick up all the details of Elvish languages.
                                  • frutiger 1 year ago
                                    About 15 years ago for me and I got 23/24. I guess YMMV.
                                    • ulizzle 1 year ago
                                      I read it six months ago or so and I got 9/24

                                      My consoling idea is that the medical big brother establishment lizards are huge Tolkien fans

                                  • nevster 1 year ago
                                    20/24 - some of the choices near the end were tricky. Have read Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, History of Middle Earth 1-3
                                    • gpderetta 1 year ago
                                      Read the Silmarillion, but only managed 20/24!
                                    • whalesalad 1 year ago
                                      I’ve often wondered - who are the Madison Avenue don Draper crews of the prescription drug world? How do they all create these terrible names, and terrible commercials around them? There’s clearly some consistency and yet it’s all insane.
                                      • vaxintar 1 year ago
                                        23/24

                                        but there was a few I just got lucky, Clédial got me because I didn't expect a drug to have an accent.

                                        • PlunderBunny 1 year ago
                                          The wonderful McSweeney's Internet Tendency [0] has a lot of this type of humour.

                                          1. https://www.mcsweeneys.net

                                          • xenophon 1 year ago
                                            Another classic of this genre, brought to you by McSweeney's: https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/armed-band-of-thugs-or-m...
                                            • isoprophlex 1 year ago
                                              I never knew sildenafil (marketed as viagra) acted as an antidepressant too, lol
                                              • elmerfud 1 year ago
                                                It's a curious link that they made. Many antidepressants can cause performance issues, which can be a big deal for a lot of people. Using sildenafil with it can restore that part of the vitality.
                                                • rconti 1 year ago
                                                  Yep that was the first one i slapped my forehead at missing, because I actually knew what it was but figured it must ALSO be a tolkien character since I was sure it wasn't an antidepressant.
                                                  • jonny_eh 1 year ago
                                                    > Antidepressant-like activity of sildenafil following acute and subchronic treatment in the forced swim test in mice: effects of restraint stress and monoamine depletion

                                                    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5031750/

                                                    • davikr 1 year ago
                                                      It is definitely not used for depression in humans, though.
                                                    • mjfl 1 year ago
                                                      Now I'm thinking of an elf named Sildenafil.
                                                      • debo_ 1 year ago
                                                        Sire of Erecthelion, who slew Gothmog the High Captain of the Balrogs at the battle of Gondolin.
                                                        • xarope 1 year ago
                                                          if I saw Erecthelion, I might have clicked on Tolkien...!
                                                    • TOGoS 1 year ago
                                                      Having recently listened to the Lord of the Rings audiobooks (the read by Andy Serkis ones) I thought this was going to be about escaping into fantasy novels as a way of keeping oneself sane without having to resort to drugs. I also found them to be one of the only effective means of occupying my mind as I was trying to fall asleep so that I didn't ruminate myself into insomnia, which of course would leave me in a worse mood the next day.
                                                      • erickhill 1 year ago
                                                        Reminds me of the classic Sporcle quiz: "Drug or Pokemon?" https://www.sporcle.com/games/LinkinMarc/drug_or_pokemon

                                                        (and just as baffling)

                                                        • g-b-r 1 year ago
                                                          How not finishing the Silmarillion comes back to bite you
                                                          • dividendpayee 1 year ago
                                                            Did anyone do worse than me? I got 11/24 :S
                                                            • rconti 1 year ago
                                                              10/24. Wow. You'd think it would be hard to do worse than a coin flip. On the other hand, I guess many coin flip sets are going to end up "worse than a coin flip" :D
                                                              • diarrhea 1 year ago
                                                                Just shy of 50% of coin flips will be worse than a coin flip.
                                                              • missedthecue 1 year ago
                                                                10/24

                                                                It got to the point that I was saying "ok this one has to be a trap"

                                                                • officehero 1 year ago
                                                                  Read most of Tolkien's books as audiobooks and this is certainly an area where audio is a much worse medium than paper. You just don't get any bells ringing from the looks of words.
                                                                  • AdamJacobMuller 1 year ago
                                                                    I felt bad about getting 12/24 which is basically "randomly guessing," somehow you did worse than random :D
                                                                  • rossdavidh 1 year ago
                                                                    21/24, and I have to say that there were a lot more tough calls than I expected. One wonders if reading JRRT's works has been tested as an antidepressant. I think "Farmer Giles of Ham" was pretty upbeat...
                                                                    • edgarvaldes 1 year ago
                                                                      Like that classic Pokemon or Big Data
                                                                      • ChrisArchitect 1 year ago
                                                                        (2020)

                                                                        From it's previous home on https://antidepressantsortolkien.now.sh/

                                                                        • d0odk 1 year ago
                                                                          Nardil is unfair
                                                                          • stargazer-3 1 year ago
                                                                            Yes, Nárdil (or Nárndil?) could've been a Tolkien name meaning fire friend in Quenya.
                                                                            • d0odk 1 year ago
                                                                              Impressive you know that. I simply confused it with the sword, Narsil. I just considered that close enough to be unfair haha
                                                                          • ivraatiems 1 year ago
                                                                            For anyone who is looking for information on the different kinds of antidepressants mentioned in this game (which I failed most completely despite being broadly familiar), here is a great article from Dr. Scott Siskind (aka Scott Alexander of SlateStarCodex/AstralCodexTen): https://lorienpsych.com/2021/06/05/depression/

                                                                            I am not a huge fan of Siskind on all things but he has a great ability to explain complex topics simply when he is an expert, and he is on this.

                                                                            • Obscurity4340 1 year ago
                                                                              How is Sildenafil (Viagra) an antidepressant? Never mind, don't answer that
                                                                              • Perceval 1 year ago
                                                                                I don't think it's an antidepressant, but it does increase testosterone, and that can improve mood: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24106072/
                                                                                • Obscurity4340 1 year ago
                                                                                  Amazing how all the misguided folks who villainize gender-affirming care have zero problem with themselves being able to receive it and also pump up their testosterone...
                                                                                  • Perceval 1 year ago
                                                                                    I just want equal opportunity to take testosterone to transition from male to alpha male.
                                                                              • piersolenski 1 year ago
                                                                                • hdhdhegdv 1 year ago
                                                                                  Wtf I got sildenafil which isn’t an antidepressant or tolkien
                                                                                  • redox99 1 year ago
                                                                                    Funny you got flagged by what I assume is a viagra spam bot check.
                                                                                  • bigmattystyles 1 year ago
                                                                                    • lIl-IIIl 1 year ago
                                                                                      From the tweet that inspired this game:

                                                                                      "Three rings to block reuptake of neurotransmitters And to the post-synaptic receptor bind them."

                                                                                      • xivzgrev 1 year ago
                                                                                        18/24 - at some point there was a certain pattern to the medications. But then it broke and I got 4 in a row wrong
                                                                                        • throwanem 1 year ago
                                                                                          Sildenafil isn't an antidepressant.
                                                                                          • nwienert 1 year ago
                                                                                            Side effects may be though ;)
                                                                                            • kstrauser 1 year ago
                                                                                              Call a doctor if it lifts your spirits for more than 4 hours.
                                                                                          • cl0ckt0wer 1 year ago
                                                                                            Cledíal got me
                                                                                            • munchler 1 year ago
                                                                                              Me too, although it's actually "Clédial". I was certain no one would market a drug with an accented character in the US.
                                                                                            • afarviral 1 year ago
                                                                                              If you got a good score, was it due to drug or tolkien knowledge? Or evenly both?
                                                                                              • CodeMage 1 year ago
                                                                                                Tolkien, in my case. In fact, I was a bit bummed out that I got 23/24.
                                                                                              • speed_spread 1 year ago
                                                                                                Why not both? Speedrun the damned ring back to fucking Mordor. Up yours, Sauron!
                                                                                                • nindalf 1 year ago
                                                                                                  21/24.

                                                                                                  I’ll atone by re-reading now.

                                                                                                  • asimpleusecase 1 year ago
                                                                                                    20 out of 24 not too bad.
                                                                                                    • trs83 1 year ago
                                                                                                      This is beautiful.
                                                                                                      • leed25d 1 year ago
                                                                                                        Enigma
                                                                                                        • bebop404 1 year ago
                                                                                                          15/24, so only slightly better than a coin flip.

                                                                                                          The names with tildes in them were giveaways, though.