Elon Musk and Tesla ignored Autopilot's fatal flaws, judge says evidence shows

79 points by edvinbesic 1 year ago | 46 comments
  • devwastaken 1 year ago
    Previous discussion was flagged - Self driving cannot work with the existing insurance and civil systems in place. By definition it can't be the driver that is solely responsible if the vehicle has automated driving. You can argue the driver was negligent in not stopping in time, not paying enough attention, etc. However civil isn't a blame it all on 1 person situation. Blame is distributed, as are the costs. So perhaps the driver is 50% responsible while autopilot is 40% with the other driver at 10%.

    Especially with a name like "autopilot" the system is ripe for litigation. We would need new laws that specially protect automated driving if we wish to continue it. I imagine some cities and states may do it, but not others.

    • x86x87 1 year ago
      Or here is a revolutionary idea: get the fuck off public roads with your beta poorly tested tech and come back wheb it's truly self driving and you accept full liability for whatever it does.
      • RecycledEle 1 year ago
        One issue: To get a "good enough" self driving system, it needs millions of miles of testing on public roads.
        • atoav 1 year ago
          Seems like you are pointing out one obvious challenge to any company that wants to develope such technology.

          Maybe it is my european upbringing, but this is not my problem, but the problem of said company. I don't see why they should be allowed to test on public streets.

          • x86x87 1 year ago
            So? Either accept liability and/or be way more conservative when making decisions or you don't belong on the PUBLIC roads. They are literally gambling with people's lives.
            • ethanbond 1 year ago
              Waymo seems to be progressing much faster and at much lower risk to the public.

              Tesla's approach specifically is just hubris/greed with the commons footing the bill.

              • bdcravens 1 year ago
                Tesla could buy land, develop it with roads, and build a fleet for testing. They can get to multiple 9's of reliability before the need for public testing, over the course of a few years and tens of thousands of testing hours. Obviously, that would have a worse effect on the bottom line versus charging customers $10-15k for the "privilege" of being beta testers.
                • JohnFen 1 year ago
                  If that's actually true and there's not another way, then tough. They shouldn't be on the roads.
              • mminer237 1 year ago
                Most states already use a comparative negligence system exactly like you describe: https://usaccidentlawyer.com/blog/comparative-negligence-for...
                • imtringued 1 year ago
                  Musk can't even get "autopilot" to work in a closed system like his "Vegas Loop". Why would anyone expect it to work anywhere else?
                  • me_me_me 1 year ago
                    and that's just the beginning. Heavy rain, snow, fog. There are tons corner cases and yet they couldn't have something working in a continuous loop
                  • chpatrick 1 year ago
                    If it's your car and you turn on the autopilot button why shouldn't you be responsible?
                    • atoav 1 year ago
                      Because you have been given the marketing material that it is safe.

                      Now let's continue this thought. Which company, do you think will produce the safer vehicles: The one liable for the faults of it's technology or the one not liable?

                      Now maybe the interesting question is why so many people shill (against their own interest) for the company known for the least responsible way of dealing with the matter.

                      • freejazz 1 year ago
                        Because you don't control what the autopilot system does. Tesla does, and as the manufacturer of the product, is the party in place to minimize the risks it creates. Most especially in this sort of context where they have prior warnings as to the product's failings, and neglect to provide warnings or to fix the problem.
                        • chpatrick 1 year ago
                          Of course you have control, you can not turn it on and drive safely like everyone else.

                          If someone sold you some kind of funky DIY autopilot system on ebay that turned the wheel for you and you decided to put it in your car and go in traffic, are you not responsible just because the seller assured you it's safe?

                    • mirages 1 year ago
                      "In Europe, side and rear underrun protection are mandated on all lorries and trailers with a gross weight of 3,500 kilograms (7,700 lb) or more"

                      I wonder why it's still not a thing in the US

                      • landemva 1 year ago
                        In US, rear underrun has been required for longer than I knew about these things. Considering miles travelled and risk and limited funds, side underrun funds are better spent on other safety items.
                      • ChrisArchitect 1 year ago
                        More earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38418282
                        • ra7 1 year ago
                          It's interesting the earlier post is flagged. This one sits in page 2 after receiving close to 30 votes in under an hour. Normally, this would be near the top of HN. Either the ranking algorithm works in even more mysterious ways or Tesla posts are flagged heavily.
                          • FirmwareBurner 1 year ago
                            >Tesla posts are flagged heavily

                            A lot of people, like a friend of mine, have put their entire life savings in tesla stock when was rocketing to the moon during covid, because they were bored of crypto and were worshiping Elon. They have the most to loose from this stuff, so my friend spends the morning bus ride to work arguing on Twitter and other social media with people why tesla is the best and any any evidence otherwise is fake news or tesla shorts trying to manipulate the stock. Poor guy.

                            It could be that such an army exists on HN as well that abuses the flag button to protect the image of the company and their investment. Just a hypothesis.

                            I'd be curious if dang has some analytics on this.

                            • ra7 1 year ago
                              This isn't the first time I've seen this either. It's definitely a pattern: new post generates a lot of discussion in a short time, but then disappears from the front pages.

                              I hope dang can analyze past posts to see if manipulation is happening.

                              • rsynnott 1 year ago
                                There’s one for Matt Levine; is it securities fraud to manipulate coverage of stock you own by mass-flagging on an obscure website?
                              • ChrisArchitect 1 year ago
                                30 votes is nothing. It'll be a blip. Not to mention having already been discussed / news from days ago. Nothing shady about it.
                                • ra7 1 year ago
                                  ~30 votes in the first hour definitely gets you to the front page. It's not nothing.
                            • juanani 1 year ago
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