Orion Browser by Kagi

271 points by cottonseed 1 year ago | 188 comments
  • mm263 1 year ago
    I've been using it for a while as my main browser and it suffers from all of the usual issues that early development stage browsers have: bugs, memory leaks. The bugs are nasty as well, I'm sometimes forced to switch back to Firefox: one example is once there was a build that crashed my browser when I opened a new tab in tree view.

    The extension support is in progress as well. UBlock Origin and BitWarden work, but YNAB Toolkit doesn't work too well.

    Overall if you are okay with alpha/beta testing a browser it's fine, but if not, stick with Firefox.

    • keyle 1 year ago
      I use it as my daily driver every day and I have very few issues with it.

      That said I'm a pretty frugal user, I get anxiety if I have more than 15 tabs open, and I shut down every night.

      Some websites downright don't work with it, but then you try Safari and it's either the ad blocker or Webkit, rarely Orion itself.

      I'm in the camp that likes Webkit rendering the best. I think it's the most appealing font and content rendering out there, even though it feels understaffed/underfunded. I prefer Webkit overall.

      • ochronus 1 year ago
        I had the same experience. Even if uBlock Origin kind of works, somehow it doesn't block the same number of ads as it does with other browsers, I wonder why. Same uBlock Origin version, same filters enabled, fewer ads blocked on Orion. I used this site for example to test: https://d3ward.github.io/toolz/adblock.html - scores 65% on orion and 99% on other browsers
        • Beijinger 1 year ago
          99% of what? of ads not served? You are mixing ads and tracking and in the end, you can be tracked because you are still unique:

          With my heavily, via plug-ins, privacy focused firefox I get 99%.

          With https://www.amiunique.org/fingerprint I get:

          Yes! You are unique among the 2206539 fingerprints in our entire dataset.

          PS: with my vanilla Chrome - I use several browsers, for banking and buying plane tickets I always recommend a vanilla one - I get 47% with many things blocked. Is this thing working correclty? I just checked my hosts file and it is vanilla too. I used to have a large hosts file but this is just inconvenient since it breaks sites. I don't understand why so many things may be blocked in my chrome browser.

          PPS: I wanted to give it a try in https://browsershots.org/ Is this site defunct? Whata pity.

          • autoexec 1 year ago
            > in the end, you can be tracked because you are still unique

            Unique isn't a bad thing really. The trick is to regularly be unique in a different way. I'd rather each tab have a unique fingerprint than simply trust that there's nothing about my browser/device that could identify me. There is an ever growing list of data points your browser makes available and a lot of time, money, and research that goes into finding fingerprinting techniques.

            I agree it's good to have a locked down browser for most things and other browsers for websites that you can't get working with everything blocked. Brave is worth a try before you hand your browsing history over directly to Google with chrome or to MS with edge.

            • ochronus 1 year ago
              99% as a score of this reproducible ad blocker test. You can see the individual tests on the site. I'm not saying it's a gold standard or anything, just a tool I happen to use. And you're right, passive tracking is a b.tch :)
            • Squarex 1 year ago
              I get 100% with orion, ublock origin and nextdns combo. It's the only browser along with Firefox where I am able to get 100%.
              • JumpCrisscross 1 year ago
                I'm getting 99% on Orion with their content blockers and uBlock Origin (default lists only).
            • jd3 1 year ago
              Orion has actually triggered two kernel panics for me in the past week. It's easy on battery life though, so I've been using it still when I'm on the go.
              • cannonpalms 1 year ago
                I'm not very familiar with this space, so perhaps someone could explain this to me. I was under the impression that a kernel panic indicates a problem at the kernel level, not in userland. Is it not the goal of most/all kernels to insulate themselves from userland mistakes?
                • frizlab 1 year ago
                  Last time I had kernel panics was because I had hardware issues. I doubt Orion is causing this.
                  • jd3 1 year ago
                    I actually think it has something to do with webkit and the fact that I use Quartz Debug to disable vsync at all times. I'll try to repro, but anecdotally speaking, my M1 MacBook Pro restarted when I was doing something in the Orion browser and spit out the typical kernel panic "Send to Apple" dialog upon reboot.
                  • saagarjha 1 year ago
                    How do you know Orion is causing it? Typically this indicates a kernel bug.
                    • freediver 1 year ago
                      What is a kernel panic?
                      • eddythompson80 1 year ago
                        It’s when the kernel (or drivers) run into a bug. Also known as blue screen of death on the windows side.
                        • Beijinger 1 year ago
                          A kernel panic is, when your computer presses the panic button and stops to work.
                      • pleb_nz 1 year ago
                        Does if have a mobile version or can you sync with a mobile browser of another vendor?

                        If not then it's not for me at this stage

                        • idle_zealot 1 year ago
                          It does have a mobile version for iOS, which is notable on its own because is supports (some) Chrome and Firefox extensions on mobile. It suffers similar beta-y bugs as the desktop version though. Personally I find it worth it to have uBO on my iPhone.
                          • g_p 1 year ago
                            Yes, there's a mobile app for iOS (on the app store), and iCloud based sync between desktop and mobile.
                            • d1sxeyes 1 year ago
                              Using it now.
                          • infecto 1 year ago
                            I am hopeful for its development but it’s not a daily driver for me. Too many bugs, not a large enough team to support it. When I have looked at the support forum the developer is sometimes a little hostile about bugs/issues, enough so that I don’t care to report my own issues. This is a subjective statement your experience may differ.
                            • D13Fd 1 year ago
                              Yeah. What a waste of time for Kagi. Isn’t search hard enough? Wouldn’t that dev time be better spent on their main product?
                              • kevincox 1 year ago
                                I agree. I love Kagi search but this seems to have no unique features over other browsers. You are better off using your otherwise favourite browser and changing the default search engine as far as I can tell.
                                • freediver 1 year ago
                                  It has many unique features over other browsers. To begin with, it is zero telemetry by default. It is also the fastest browser on Mac as measured by Speedometer. And it supports both Chrome and Firefox extensions, in a WebKit based browser. This should be a good start.
                              • infecto 1 year ago
                                Just to add, the main complaint I have had with it is the memory leaks/bloat. For example, I sometimes listen to music via youtube while working and after a couple hours the video player interface will become unresponsive, you click pause and it takes 5 seconds for the video to pause. This problem has been around for over a year, I remember seeing some similar posts on the support forum but it was kind of dismissive. This kind of bug is a deal breaker for me.
                                • admaiora 1 year ago
                                  This is also a problem with Safari. Leaving websites with a ton of dynamic content leads to the whole browser becoming unresponsive.
                                  • infecto 1 year ago
                                    Never experienced it with Youtube in Safari but it happens 100% of the time in Orion.
                                • pantulis 1 year ago
                                  For me the highest stopper is that it does not really work with Google Meet and it is not clear if it is a Webkit bug or not. Apart from that, I could probably use it as a daily driver.
                                  • endofreach 1 year ago
                                    > that it does not really work with Google Meet

                                    It does sound like a feature, not a bug though...

                                    • seanhunter 1 year ago
                                      My "favourite" feature about Meet is that it takes me through all these self-satisfied feature announcement popups to explain to me how all these different things work. every. single. call.

                                      I use meet as seldom as possible (basically just when a client, partner org etc sets up a call) but it still adds up to at least 2 or 3 a week at minimum. I wasn't interested in those feature popups the first time I'm definitely not interested now after you've been showing them to me 2 or 3 times a week for the last year or so. There doesn't seem any way to make it stop though.

                                      • loloquwowndueo 1 year ago
                                        This. Meet works better with Chrome, so I used to have chrome for Meet only, and Firefox for everything else.
                                    • 1 year ago
                                    • __alexs 1 year ago
                                      As a paying Kagi user, please don't waste my money on this when Firefox already exists.
                                      • stupendousyappi 1 year ago
                                        This is how I feel about Vlad's statement on their Discord that he wants to provide email services. That strikes me as a big project in terms of both development and operations, somewhat contrary to their privacy focus, and not something that their users are asking for (on Discord, I'd say that most commenters said they were unlikely to use it any time soon, switching would be too much of a hassle). And while I subscribe to Kagi and love the search product, they're still a tiny company with no long term track record, and far from what I would feel comfortable trusting with my email, which IMO is much more sensitive than my search history. Meanwhile, although Kagi Search already reliably beats Google IMO, there's still a ton of stuff they could do to improve their main product.
                                        • tiltowait 1 year ago
                                          I had similar reservations when I read the email discussion. I hope they aren't spreading themselves too thin.

                                          I use Orion as my daily driver (because of the nested tree view), but Kagi Search is more important to me, and I don't want to see that go down under the weight of a bunch of distractions.

                                          • carlosjobim 1 year ago
                                            Completely agree with you that Kagi e-mail will be unnecessary, even though I trust them on privacy. There are already great e-mail providers, such as Fastmail. But it makes some sense for them to go for e-mail, since they're already hitting Google on search. They're basically going after Google where it's possible: search, web browser, e-mail. They can't go after Google on maps or video streaming, so they do what they can. I'd much rather they innovate and get ready for the future of the internet after AI has destroyed traditional discovery.
                                            • kzhe 1 year ago
                                              But they are going after google maps. There's a beta "Kagi maps" on their maps tab
                                          • ploum 1 year ago
                                            I’m also a paying user (and a fan) of Kagi. I’m still confused by the strategy. If you are not Google and trying to have an hegemony on the web, there’s no obvious link between a browser and a search engine. I don’t see the point from a business perspective. It sends a strange signal to users "Hey, by the way, we are reinventing the wheel and making also a browser that works only on some operating systems".

                                            It’s a bit like going for groceries and then your merchant told you all the time "By the way, I’m selling this car prototype. It makes sense! You have to take your car anyway to comes shopping for groceries so why not buying the one from us?".

                                            But I’m a cyclist…

                                            • Ayesh 1 year ago
                                              > going for groceries...

                                              I really this analogy. It feels weird especially when Google and Brave both have their own browser and ad programs, so it's in Kagi's favor to stay as far as possible from inventing their own browser.

                                              • freediver 1 year ago
                                                Comment above address a part of the question https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38475154

                                                Second part of the answer to your question is that you can not humanize the web (our stated mission) with just Search. The window to the web is the browser. It is the most important software we have on our computers and yet we are as a civilization somehow Ok with the fact that most mainstream browsers through which we inform and educate are directly or indirectly in the service of advertising companies (!).

                                                If that is not dystopia, I am not sure what is. And that is what we are up against, even if the odds are against us.

                                                Orion is the first browser in 20 years that you can pay for and own. Owning your browser is a thing again thanks to Orion!

                                                It is also a great customer acqusition channel for Kagi, as we do not do advertising and many Kagi members told us this is how they found about the Search product.

                                                Yes it is hard. Yes Orion only exists on Mac, because you have to start somewhere and we are a small team. But we will get there.

                                                • Closi 1 year ago
                                                  100%! There is more than enough to work on in the search engine space without getting distracted by other red oceans.

                                                  Is it just that the search engine doesn't make enough space or they are finding it isn't sticky enough, so need to add more services to justify the price? (e.g. email...)

                                                • freediver 1 year ago
                                                  Firefox suffers from the same problem almost all other browsers suffer - it is ad-supported (indirectly in its case). This impedes its ability to be the real user agent, as its customer is the world's biggest advertising agency, not its users.

                                                  Like with Kagi search, we wanted to build a browser that gives power back to the user and aligns all incentives. We find this incredibly important.

                                                  This is why, unlike Firefox, Orion is both zero telemetry and comes with a built-in ad and tracking blocker. And also unlike Firefox, this makes Orion both privacy respecting and privacy protecting, by default. And that is just a start of things you get when you align incentives in a browser.

                                                  • martin_a 1 year ago
                                                    I second this. Please do one thing and one thing only and that's building a good search engine. Don't become Mozilla and get lost along the way.
                                                    • Ayesh 1 year ago
                                                      In fairness to Mozilla, Thunderbird, Bugzilla, and a few projects like DMOZ were fairly well received projects. Even recent ones like Firefox Send and their email forwarding service are quite nice additions. On the software side, their investments in in-browser translations are money well spent IMO.

                                                      It's the stuff like Firefox OS and Pocket gave the bad rep to Mozilla. I don't know what they were smoking about Pocket, but I can see their thought process in making Firefox OS. Chrome OS eventually did become a mainstream OS, it could have been Firefox OS too, if it has the right people and money.

                                                    • gkbrk 1 year ago
                                                      As another paying Kagi user, I feel that this is not a waste of money. A browser that blocks tracking and advertisements by default is not only good for the users privacy and security, it directly hurts their #1 competitor. It's two birds with one stone.
                                                      • infecto 1 year ago
                                                        I had similar concerns from the get-go. I honestly don't know how big their team is now but I always only see one or two people post online as representative to Kagi. Won't stop me from paying for Kagi but I definitely will not be paying for the browser. Arc is a much more interesting take on a browser than Orion, and A LOT less bugs.
                                                        • zaphod420 1 year ago
                                                          As someone who pays for kagi search, and also paid for Orion Browser, please keep wasting my money on this.
                                                          • oriettaxx 1 year ago
                                                            uhhh, I don't agree.. .

                                                            I hate even Firefox in my phone: even if you set to remove data when I close it, it does not, and I have to do it by hand every time

                                                          • vunderba 1 year ago
                                                            As far as I know, Orion is the only iOS compatible browser that lets you load extensions from the Chrome store and possibly Firefox as well although I'm not sure about that.
                                                            • bm-rf 1 year ago
                                                              Seems like plugin support is not fully implemented, I added the 1Password extension, but can’t get the button to work in login forms.
                                                              • chronicsonic 1 year ago
                                                                Yes it also supports Firefox extensions. Bypass Paywall Clean is a great one.
                                                                • vsnf 1 year ago
                                                                  By what mechanism is it possible for this to be true when Firefox doesn't even support Firefox extensions?
                                                                  • freediver 1 year ago
                                                                    Orion has a port of the web extensions API (used by Chrome and Firefox extensions) on top of WebKit.
                                                                    • 4ggr0 1 year ago
                                                                      Is this a joke I'm not getting? Currently using FF on every device I use, with 3+ extensions.
                                                                • droopyEyelids 1 year ago
                                                                  Kagi is in the “this is fucking awesome” part of a tech company lifecycle.
                                                                  • biglyburrito 1 year ago
                                                                    Yup. Search results are as good in Kagi as Google used to be 10yrs ago, before it became an SEO-tuned, malware-infested garbage pile. Worth $5/month.
                                                                    • ipaddr 1 year ago
                                                                      I highly disagree, google 10 year ago had nsfw content, it had a great long tail. I signed up and found it to have little depth and it skips most of the web. It does a great job of filtering out spam but it equally good at filtering out everything else. Tech related it's great. For shopping not so great. For local not so great. For science, education it's pretty decent. For anything like torrents or coupon sites or sites in other languages it's not the best.
                                                                      • Exoristos 1 year ago
                                                                        I would pay $1 or $2 a month, not $5.
                                                                        • carlosjobim 1 year ago
                                                                          People say this, but it's rarely true. Anybody running a subscription service quickly learns that it's not worth bothering with customers who won't pay at least $5 per month. They're the most trouble for the least income.
                                                                          • ploum 1 year ago
                                                                            If the switched to 2$ a month, they might double their customer base.

                                                                            And still earn less money (not even counting the costs).

                                                                            So, sadly, it is sometimes smart to be expensive.

                                                                        • EA-3167 1 year ago
                                                                          It really is. I switched to them a while ago and I've used Google maybe 4-5 times since, in over a year.

                                                                          Never looked back.

                                                                        • hubraumhugo 1 year ago
                                                                          I'm impressed by all the work the Kagi team is getting done. I wonder how they split their focus between the two major challenges of building a new search engine and a new browser with the same small team.
                                                                          • pockmockchock 1 year ago
                                                                            Open Source would be MUCH better, but I'm seeing you're working on it, will wait till then I guess.
                                                                            • prmoustache 1 year ago
                                                                              I never understood the delays before open sourcing a product. Unless they are using third party proprietary code, what do they have to work on?
                                                                              • riddley 1 year ago
                                                                                I would guess security passes that they should be doing anyway. If they open source and there are enough sec issues it might kill good will.
                                                                                • kuchenbecker 1 year ago
                                                                                  Anything proprietary or specific to Kagi needs to be sanitized / made a Plugin. E.g. an error message might say "please contact support at X." It's non-trivial to make all errors generic and pluggable. It's a lot of work to keep the business separate from the OSS part.
                                                                                • specialist 1 year ago
                                                                                  I'd contribute to Bookmarks and History features if Orion.app was open source.
                                                                                  • carlosjobim 1 year ago
                                                                                    Wait for what?
                                                                                    • wartijn_ 1 year ago
                                                                                      Wait for the browser to become open source I assume, which is supposed to happen sometime in the future.

                                                                                      > Is Orion open-source?

                                                                                      > We’re working on it! We’ve begun with some of our components and intend to open more in the future.

                                                                                      https://kagi.com/orion/faq.html#oss

                                                                                      • carlosjobim 1 year ago
                                                                                        > Wait for the browser to become open source I assume

                                                                                        Yes, but what then?

                                                                                  • tticvs 1 year ago
                                                                                    I've been using this as a daily driver on iOS for about a month now and it's been great. A few random teething issues but no crashes or real bugs. Supports extensions well.
                                                                                    • latchkey 1 year ago
                                                                                      I'd love to see a browser natively and deeply integrate a 3rd party password manager like bitwarden or 1password, instead of just supporting Keychain.
                                                                                      • crabmusket 1 year ago
                                                                                        Pedantry: https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/pardon-the-expression/to...
                                                                                        • latchkey 1 year ago
                                                                                          Interesting! My thought was more that it was just dragging some heavy line kind of keeping things straight and boring. I'll correct.
                                                                                          • crabmusket 1 year ago
                                                                                            I think that your usage was actually correct- if I understand correctly, choosing to use Mac's native keychain is kind of "going along with" what Apple prefers- is that the sense of what you were saying? If so then you could definitely say apps "toe the line" when they do this.

                                                                                            It was just the spelling I was pedant-ing about!

                                                                                        • ishitatsuyuki 1 year ago
                                                                                          macOS has native password autofill which opens the Keychain experience to 3rd party password managers. Unfortunately browser support is limited to Safari (even though the API itself is open), while Strongbox [1] seems to be the only option on password manager side.

                                                                                          Maybe this will improve with the adoption of passkeys, where browsers are actually trying to integrate with the system passkeys API (a neighbor to autofill).

                                                                                          [1]: https://strongboxsafe.com/updates/macos-big-sur-autofill/

                                                                                        • Ayesh 1 year ago
                                                                                          I've been using Firefox's built-in password manager before moving to Bitwarden, and I don't think Firefox's isn't all that bad.

                                                                                          All passwords are E2EE, and the sync server is open source and you can theoretically self host it.

                                                                                          I recently read about how Bitwarden adds Passkeys to Firefox, and was left sour there is no universal API for it. Bitwarden just overrides it as JS level, and hands it over to the browser if there are no passkeys selected/available.

                                                                                          I imagine Safari + keychain is coupled in a more secure and well-defined way.

                                                                                          • GoofballJones 1 year ago
                                                                                            I 100% switched from 3rd party password managers to keychain and never looked back. It does everything natively, including 2-factor auth.
                                                                                            • latchkey 1 year ago
                                                                                              As much as I generally love Apple products, I'm good with keeping my passwords in a system not 100% controlled by Apple. Thanks though!
                                                                                              • GoofballJones 1 year ago
                                                                                                I'm the opposite, while I don't trust any company, there are levels of trust I give. I trust Apple over a 3rd party. I remember when LastPass was touted by everyone as safe and secure...now look what's happened to them several times.

                                                                                                I mean, we'll see people NOW saying "oh, I never trusted LastPass", but that's BS.

                                                                                              • dave8088 1 year ago
                                                                                                What if you want to use a Windows or Linux machine?
                                                                                                • GoofballJones 1 year ago
                                                                                                  I do all the time, everyday. Is it an automatic paste? No. But then again, I don't want that on other computers.
                                                                                            • mastazi 1 year ago
                                                                                              At this time, this is not for me unfortunately as I use 4 different OSes (Mac/Linux/iOS/Windows) but looking forward to checking it out again down the line.
                                                                                              • panzerboiler 1 year ago
                                                                                                I use it on an old macbook-pro-2012 (stuck on Catalina and on an old version of Safari). Thank you Kagi for providing a build with a recent version of WebKit. On the iPad I use it just for youtube, sometimes. It is still pretty rough around the edges compared to current Safari.
                                                                                                • elromulous 1 year ago
                                                                                                  I'm still waiting for Windows / Linux / Android support.
                                                                                                  • izzydata 1 year ago
                                                                                                    Are there any plans for Windows and Android releases?
                                                                                                    • wartijn_ 1 year ago
                                                                                                      From their docs: “One day, we hope everyone will say Orion is the best browser for all Apple devices.”

                                                                                                      So I wouldn’t hold my breath.

                                                                                                      • benrutter 1 year ago
                                                                                                        From the website:

                                                                                                        > 1. Orion is currently available for Apple macOS, iPadOS and iOS. We are planning support for other platforms in the future.

                                                                                                        Zilch on timelines though, so don't know how much of a priority it is for them?

                                                                                                        • jijji 1 year ago
                                                                                                          Forgot about Linux
                                                                                                          • SushiHippie 1 year ago
                                                                                                            They are currently working on a linux beta/alpha version.
                                                                                                        • dorian-graph 1 year ago
                                                                                                          I've used it as my primary browser for months! Highly recommend it. The team behind it are quite active on their feedback forum.
                                                                                                          • vsgherzi 1 year ago
                                                                                                            For me it's been more performant than safari esp on google based sites (google meet)
                                                                                                            • mantra2 1 year ago
                                                                                                              How is it actually working now? The last time I tried it I felt it was pretty buggy -- but in an ideal world I'd love to switch.
                                                                                                              • keyle 1 year ago
                                                                                                                It's essentially Safari with ad blocking built in. Certain website I notice crap out, but it's pretty rare.

                                                                                                                I made the switch approx 6 months ago.

                                                                                                                • d1sxeyes 1 year ago
                                                                                                                  Some bugs still. Mostly if I run into a bug, and I try to open the same site in Safari, I experience the same bug.

                                                                                                                  Occasionally it'll do something stupid and hang completely, but I'd say maybe that happens once or twice a week, not enough to stop me using it (and I live in it most of the day).

                                                                                                                  • mantra2 1 year ago
                                                                                                                    Interesting. I’m thinking of giving it another shot. In theory it sounds like the perfect browser for me. The only extension I use is uBlock and BitWarden so I don’t really care much for widespread support of extensions and it sounds like that’s the last really buggy part.
                                                                                                                • scblock 1 year ago
                                                                                                                  I use it as my daily driver, highly recommended.
                                                                                                                  • shepherdjerred 1 year ago
                                                                                                                    Just waiting for passkey support before I switch!

                                                                                                                    https://orionfeedback.org/d/3025-support-passkeys/42

                                                                                                                    • mr_machine 1 year ago
                                                                                                                      Currently, I stan Firefox, but only because all other alternatives compromise my privacy and security so egregiously. Mozilla has been messing around for years and in many ways, some merely dumb while others actively diminish the benefits of Firefox over others. I don't think a privacy conscious alternative browser is in any way a waste - it's exciting!

                                                                                                                      But I'd require both fullsome Linux support and an open source approach to even consider it.

                                                                                                                      • mgiampapa 1 year ago
                                                                                                                        Since it supports iOS and iPadOS, does it use a fork of WebKit, or is it embedded Safari? What manifest API is it going to support going forward?
                                                                                                                        • smcleod 1 year ago
                                                                                                                          https://kagi.com/orion/faq.html

                                                                                                                          > How will manifest v2 extensions work with Orion after manifest v3 roll out in Chrome?

                                                                                                                          > Same as before! Orion has its own implementation of the entire web extensions API and different "manifests" are just numbers. We support web extensions APIs regardless of how Google decided to call them or change them. Manifest change impacts mostly Chromium clones, and Orion will support both "manifest v2" and manifest v3" extensions in the future.

                                                                                                                          --

                                                                                                                          > Will Orion for iOS also support web extensions?

                                                                                                                          > Yes, we have preliminary support for some web extensions on iOS.

                                                                                                                          > Wait, are you sure? No browser on iOS can use Chrome/Firefox extensions!

                                                                                                                          > Orion makes it possible! We ported hundreds of web extension APIs to run on top of WebKit, which also runs on iOS.

                                                                                                                          --

                                                                                                                          See also https://help.kagi.com/orion/privacy-and-security/ad-tracking...

                                                                                                                          • mgiampapa 1 year ago
                                                                                                                            Thanks, not having an iOS device or Mac I didn't check that far into their site. I'm not willing to invest into that ecosystem until Apple allows some freedom.
                                                                                                                        • TobyTheDog123 1 year ago
                                                                                                                          EDIT: Nevermind, I somehow totally missed the "beta" plastered all over the place.

                                                                                                                          I just gave Orion a try because of this HackerNews post --- what a buggy mess.

                                                                                                                          I've already seen three crashes using it, mostly by bookmarking things or deleting old bookmarks.

                                                                                                                          I'm very grateful that there are good players entering the space (from what I hear Kagi is amazing), but Orion just is not ready to be a daily driver.

                                                                                                                          • loehnsberg 1 year ago
                                                                                                                            Depends on what platform you use - iOS is quite buggy whereas I have close to zero issues on Mac. Turn on compatability mode (left button next to address bar) if a site does not work properly which turns of ad blocker etc.
                                                                                                                          • mornanding 1 year ago
                                                                                                                            This is so cool. Finally all my favorite extensions/addons on the iPad. Feels like breaking out from jail. Thank you, developers!
                                                                                                                            • bigpapikite 1 year ago
                                                                                                                              I tried daily driving Orion for a couple weeks and there's a lot of great work being done, but I had some pain points. The extension functionality on iPadOS is really jank in a way I don't quite know how to explain. Like sometimes I come back to Orion and the extensions are signed out of or sometimes they straight up just don't work. I've also had some bad one off experiences of random sites taking a long time to load or running into issues. Orion plays really well with Safari though, which is great, so I run a very strange combo of Orion on my iPhone, Safari on my iPad, and Arc on my Mac. There's enough additions on top of Safari for me to prefer Orion over it (if it works well), but not enough for me to prefer it over Arc on my Mac. Arc's QOL features and out the box UI design just put it way above any browser I've used.
                                                                                                                              • JumpCrisscross 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                Is there an argument to be made for a lighter browser such as this being more secure than Safari or Firefox on macOS?
                                                                                                                                • saagarjha 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                  It’s WebKit-based, so it’s not really particularly lighter.
                                                                                                                                  • dharmab 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                    One neat feature is that it has native ad and tracking blockers, which can be more powerful than ad-blocking extensions.
                                                                                                                                    • hackideiomat 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                      No. This is done by a company without a real security team. Compare that to Google, with one of the best security teams in the world.
                                                                                                                                      • syndicatedjelly 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                        And as we all know, Google's security record is spotless.
                                                                                                                                    • tholdem 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                      Not sure what you mean with "lighter", but the reason some browsers feel heavier is the security features that introduce a performance penalty or take up more resources, like jitless mode and process isolation for example. Firefox is not a secure web browser.
                                                                                                                                      • saagarjha 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                        Firefox supports process isolation. Why do you not think it’s secure?
                                                                                                                                    • gnrlst 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                      Orion has been a godsend on iOS where it's impossible to install uBlock Origin otherwise. Thanks Kagi team!
                                                                                                                                      • damm 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                        I would try it if they supported Linux.
                                                                                                                                      • tambourine_man 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                        Funny that it uses Hacker News as its example rendering page. We must really be target group. It's also not a particularly hard to render page or one that tracks you.
                                                                                                                                        • nicce 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                          Looks of the browser are pretty great and it has built-in most the features you would need.

                                                                                                                                          Some extensions do not work. E.g. BitWarden autofill does not work either as Chrome or Firefox extension. Some websites get laggy. Sometimes ChatGPT page lags so much that is unusable. Also if you browse GitHub, some views will lag very much, and make it unusable. Maybe some day it will be competitive also in compatibility.

                                                                                                                                          But since it is MacOS only, I always will need to use many browsers...

                                                                                                                                          • yahmez 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                            If I load reddit.com on the iOS Orion browser the page is completely unresponsive. Anyone else experience this? Not a great first impression sadly.
                                                                                                                                            • nicce 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                              Yes. But maybe Reddit is not the best benchmarck due to their user-hostile behaviour anyway (well, maybe it is "best" because of this). The only purpose of mobile website is to make the user to download their app.
                                                                                                                                              • chronicsonic 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                I use Safari for Reddit because of the SinkIt extension:

                                                                                                                                                https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/sink-it-for-reddit/id644987363...

                                                                                                                                                • navanchauhan 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                  I am running apollo with a patch to use my own API key. I am not sure what I am going to do when this eventually breaks
                                                                                                                                                • freediver 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                  This is due to built in content blockers. You can disable them on reddit and it will load fine.
                                                                                                                                                • spicycode 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                  I've had great luck with this browser so far, the only thing stopping it from being a daily driver is passkey support.
                                                                                                                                                  • whalesalad 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                    This is interesting... I used to daily drive Safari but the kagi extension somehow bricked the entire Safari. I've tried all the tricks to clear out ~/Library folders but it is still broken.

                                                                                                                                                    Back on Firefox now... but this could be worth a spin.

                                                                                                                                                    • captn3m0 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                      Is it ever gonna be possible to support Safari Extensions and Time reporting/blocks via iOS?

                                                                                                                                                      I can set time limit for HN if i use an app, or if I use Safari. Switching to Firefox (with the same WebKit backend) means no screen time limits apply.

                                                                                                                                                      • donatj 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                        I am genuinely curious why there is a different build for every release of macOS?
                                                                                                                                                        • Ayesh 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                          I'm not using macOS or this browser, but my guess, seeing how the website mentions it's native app, it probably has to do with ibtegrations with certain features available in each macOS version. Live text, sharing options, etc.
                                                                                                                                                          • freediver 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                            We ship optimized version of WebKit for each macOS.
                                                                                                                                                          • 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                            • runamuck 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                              I would love to see the Value Prop of this vs. Brave. (NOTE: I pay for a Kagi Unlimited Subscription).
                                                                                                                                                              • mhsdef 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                Better customer alignment.

                                                                                                                                                                To be fair, Brave seems to have genuinely tried, but, seems to be failing to reach sustainablility judging by their various pivots. They've tried to walk the line of leaning toward the user while middlemanning revenue ideas to said user. BAT and crypto, VPN, messaging sales, now search+ads. The market seems to be saying no thanks from what I can see from the outside.

                                                                                                                                                                Orion, in straight up exchange for cash via donation and Kagi subsidization, offers to be entirely the user's agent.

                                                                                                                                                                • mhsdef 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                  Browser diversification.

                                                                                                                                                                  We're already in Chromelandia. We'd be near 100% if it wasn't for Safari mobile.

                                                                                                                                                                • the_gipsy 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                  Gets stuck on major websites. The extension support sounds extremely fishy: I could install uBlock Origin, but either they are violating the Apple AppStore rules, or the extensions aren't actually working (fake API, not really implemented).
                                                                                                                                                                  • carlosjobim 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                    Why do you lie? A lot of the extensions are working perfectly.
                                                                                                                                                                    • the_gipsy 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                      You cannot ship a JavaScript runtime in the AppStore, so you cannot ship a browser that is not a safari WebView, so extensions like uBlock Origin cannot possibly run on an iOS browser.

                                                                                                                                                                      So which is it? They cannot get away with violating the appstore terms. It must be a shim API that marks the extension as installed to some degree.

                                                                                                                                                                  • aiscapehumanity 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                    Not cross-platform? Ngmi
                                                                                                                                                                    • 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                      • flixing 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                        quite shitty browser to be honest.
                                                                                                                                                                        • airtonix 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                          [dead]
                                                                                                                                                                          • pt_PT_guy 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                            yet another browser. no, thank you. even worse that it is based in blink/chromium.

                                                                                                                                                                            I would rather prefer they to lower their price than investing in this.

                                                                                                                                                                          • charcircuit 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                            Developing a complex product like a browser without telemetry will be hard. Especially if they are trying to commit to objectives like using minimal battery or memory. There are many many different websites so its hard to predict what your users are using the browser for.
                                                                                                                                                                            • syndicatedjelly 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                              I'm glad someone is trying to doing something hard that will benefit people. We need more companies that want to do the hard thing, not the easy profitable thing.
                                                                                                                                                                              • charcircuit 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                Telemetry would allow them to make their product better for more people and know where to invest to benefit their users more. In this case proitability is proxy for how much value people get from the proxy. The thought that something is bad because it is profitable is misguided.
                                                                                                                                                                                • ipaddr 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                  Is all telemetry good in your eyes?

                                                                                                                                                                                  Telemetry is a cheaper solution to hiring quality assurance. Many will feel sharing their usage details to increase profits is acceptance and others might feel this free product isn't so free anymore.

                                                                                                                                                                                  • justinclift 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                    From your point of view, does using telemetry have downsides? No concept of misleading info or bad product development direction from using it?
                                                                                                                                                                                • freediver 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                  Respecting user privacy begins with browser being zero telemetry. If it is not, it can not claim to be privacy-respecting.
                                                                                                                                                                                  • charcircuit 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                    Telemetry can be privacy respecting. For example it may be useful to know the average page load time. The browser could record 100 different page loads and then send the median time.
                                                                                                                                                                                    • freediver 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                      It almost can not by definition, as every telemetry will include user IP address which is considered PII. Regardless what the stated purpose of that telemetry was, private information will leak and that browser can not be calling itself privacy respecting. Zero telemetry by default is the only way a browser respects user privacy.

                                                                                                                                                                                      If the user opts-in into telemetry then obviously it is user's choice, but usually browsers with telemetry do not make this an opt-in choice.

                                                                                                                                                                                  • saagarjha 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                    They very explicitly do not want to know what their users are using the browser for.