MusicXML
92 points by jesperlang 1 year ago | 72 comments- Tokkemon 1 year agoI work for Sibelius so I'm heavily involved in this world. MusicXML is a great standard and offered a solid basis for data interchange between music notation programs. But now there's a new group working to build a successor standard, MNX: https://w3c.github.io/mnx/docs/
It was originally going to be in XML but they recently switched to JSON, which is a good move, I think. I can't wait for it to be adopted as it will give so much more richness to the data set.
- TedDoesntTalk 1 year agoHopefully they will use JSON5 so comments can be included. The loss of comments when switching from XML to JSON was a disaster in other domains.
- usrusr 1 year agoI'm all for JSON-with-comments, and I even have a bit of a soft spot for the idea of JSON-with-expressions, but considering how far I expect this one to be on the "interchange" side of the spectrum between interchange formats and authoring formats, I doubt that comments will be missed a lot.
Certainly less, less by several orders of magnitude, than in the depressingly ubiquitous JSON-as-configuration use case...
- microtherion 1 year agoAnother concern with comments is that apps might try to (ab)use them to store app specific information, which hurts the goal of an interchange format.
- microtherion 1 year ago
- usrusr 1 year ago
- adrianh 1 year agoHi, I'm the person running the MNX project! Contributions welcome — we're making good progress and the new format is going to be really fantastic.
- im3w1l 1 year agoAs different standards proliferate it makes me worried that we will have less interoperability not more, as programs only have limited resources and pick one format they focus on supporting and perhaps half-assing another. (How) do you plan to adress this? Are there plans for some library for dealing with these files to help adoption? What will be the best way for users to convert from MusicXML to MNX and back? Is losslessly roundtripping MusicXML an explicit goal? (I assume losslessly roundtripping MNX will not be possible in general as you intend to add new features to MNX that MusicXML doesn't have and will never have).
- adrianh 1 year agoYes, I've already begun work on an open-source utility that converts from MusicXML to MNX: https://github.com/w3c/mnxconverter
Eventually it'll work both ways. I'm hoping this is a big help for adoption, as gives you two formats for the price of one (just write an importer for MNX, and you can get MusicXML import support "for free" if you use the library).
- adrianh 1 year ago
- ronyeh 1 year agoAwesome project (as always) Adrian!
Will MNX allow for inline comments?
I don’t see any comments on the examples page:
https://w3c.github.io/mnx/docs/mnx-reference/examples/
I know JSON doesn’t have comments, but JS and JSON5 allow for comments. It would be super nice to allow for comments because you can hand annotate sections of the MNX file for the purposes of teaching.
- adrianh 1 year agoThanks! We're not planning to support inline comments at this time; this was a tradeoff we knew we'd have to make when we decided to use JSON.
Given the choice between supporting comments and supporting a wider variety of implementations/libraries ("plain" JSON as opposed to a comments-supporting variant), I think the latter is a more practical priority.
With that said, we'd like to add a standard way to add vendor-specific information to an MNX document — which is definitely a must-have, for applications that will use MNX as a native format — and I could see a comments-ish thing appearing in that form.
Regarding that examples page, I'm actually planning to do something along those lines anyway. The MusicXML docs and the MNX docs use the same system (a Django app), and the MusicXML part uses a custom XML tag to define "this part of the XML example should be highlighted in blue" (example: https://w3c.github.io/musicxml/musicxml-reference/examples/a...). It's on my to-do list to implement the same thing for the JSON version — which is essentially like inline comments(ish), if you squint.
- adrianh 1 year ago
- antoinebalaine 1 year agoLooking forward to discovering this standard. After 2 years working on parsing ABC, I realize how difficult it is to represent notation. Kudos on this effort!
- im3w1l 1 year ago
- microtherion 1 year agoI've written two music apps that use MusicXML as their native representation (https://woodshed.in is the newer one), so I've been involved in this world as well.
MusicXML is a great effort to tackle a very difficult problem, but some of the details can get rather hairy (e.g. having to represent many concepts twice, once for the visual aspect, and once for the performance aspect; or how exactly to express incomplete slurs). Interoperability in practice seems to be fairly limited (Possibly because for many music programs, MusicXML import/export is an afterthought).
One of the biggest contributions a new standard could make is to provide as complete a test suite as possible of various musical concepts (and their corner cases!) and their canonical representation. It looks like MNX has already made good efforts in this direction.
- Exoristos 1 year ago> they recently switched to JSON
Considering this data is machine-generated and machine-ingested, moving away from XML seems like a big step down.
- bastawhiz 1 year agoIn what way is JSON a step down versus XML? Frankly I get nervous and sweaty every time I need to deal with XML, because of the inherent performance/security issues it brings into my codebase.
- Exoristos 1 year agoXML is much more precise and much more flexible. It also benefits from much more powerful and mature tooling. The few comparative downsides it has include verboseness, which doesn't matter to machines, and that younger devs don't know how to work with it, which again shouldn't be much of an issue in this use case.
- Exoristos 1 year ago
- bastawhiz 1 year ago
- account-5 1 year agoNever heard of either before but having looked at the comparison [0] I think I prefer the XML version.
- poulpy123 1 year agoI'm with you. I usually prefer JSON to XML but in the example the XML is more readable
- jefftk 1 year agoWhat do you like better about the XML version?
- account-5 1 year agoIt's computer readable and (with highlighting) human readable. The JSON brackets are visually jarring. I feel that the XML is almost self documenting whereas I'd probably need the schema to understand the JSON.
I like JSON for data transfer but for describing documents XML is decent.
- account-5 1 year ago
- poulpy123 1 year ago
- gnulinux 1 year agoHow about MEI?
https://music-encoding.org/about/
This is what MuseScore 4 will soon start using.
- 1 year ago
- Kye 1 year agoHow well does MusicXML (and MNX) represent the full range of notation? It seems like an exceptionally hard problem.
Related: Can it handle non-Western notations?
- Tokkemon 1 year agoMusicXML only works with conventional western notation, but MNX is attempting to expand that significantly. How far they will get with that, I don't know.
- Tokkemon 1 year ago
- odyssey7 1 year agoHow would you explain the relationship between MNX and SMuFL?
- adrianh 1 year agoThey're totally different things, though the standards are maintained by the same people.
SMuFL is a font layout specification. It solves the longtime problem of "I'm making a music font. Which Unicode code glyph should I use for a treble clef?" For many years, this was a Wild West situation, and it wasn't possible to swap music fonts because they defined their glyphs in inconsistent ways. This problem is basically solved now, thanks to SMuFL.
MNX is a way of encoding the music itself. It solves the problem of "I have some music notation I want to encode in a semantic format, so it can be analyzed/displayed/exported/imported/etc."
- odyssey7 1 year agoThanks. If it isn't too many questions, are any layout concerns encodable in MNX, or is it scoped to semantic information only?
- odyssey7 1 year ago
- adrianh 1 year ago
- marsven_422 1 year ago[dead]
- TedDoesntTalk 1 year ago
- AdmiralAsshat 1 year agoMusicXML is old hat. All the cool kids are using MusicJSON now.
EDIT: I'd like to clarify that I posted this comment, as a joke, before the below comment went on to clarify that there was, in fact, a JSON-based rewrite of the music standard in progress:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38460827
Never change, tech world!
- geodel 1 year agoI hear you don't want to go (Cloud)Native else you'd be using MusicYAML now.
- OfSanguineFire 1 year agoPlease don't post one-line jokes on HN. The longstanding culture of this venue finds that inappropriate.
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- danjc 1 year agofwiw, on my phone it showed up as two lines.
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- geodel 1 year ago
- jonathrg 1 year agoI have not had much success using MusicXML to switch between different notation programs. Trying to read a score exported from Musescore as MusicXML in Sibelius or vice versa feels worse than switching between Microsoft Office and other ostensibly compatible formats.
Does anyone have any success stories?
- adrianh 1 year agoThis is a common complaint, and it's something we're trying to remedy with MNX: https://w3c.github.io/mnx/docs/
Music notation is incredibly complex, and there are many places things can go wrong. There's a wide spectrum of error situations, such as:
* The exporting application "thinks" about notation in a different way than the importing application (i.e., it has a different mental model).
* MusicXML provides multiple ways of encoding the same musical concept, and some applications don't take the effort to check for all possible scenarios.
* Some applications support a certain type of notation while others don't.
* MusicXML doesn't have a semantic way of encoding certain musical concepts (leading applications to encode them as simple text (via the words element), if at all.
* Good ol' fashioned bugs in MusicXML import or export. (Music notation is complex, so it's easy to introduce bugs!)
- saltminer 1 year ago> MusicXML provides multiple ways of encoding the same musical concept, and some applications don't take the effort to check for all possible scenarios.
This sounded interesting, so I went to the webpage, and found this point specifically called out:
> It prioritizes interchange, meaning: it can be generated unambiguously, it can be parsed unambiguously, it favors one-and-only-one way to express concepts, and multiple programs reading the same MNX file will interpret it the same way.
But I'm curious to see some examples of this. https://w3c.github.io/mnx/docs/comparisons/musicxml/ provides an interesting comparison (and calls out how the same MusicXML can be interpreted in different ways for things like octave shifts), but it would be nice if the page also included alternate ways that MusicXML can represent the same composition and talk about how certain programs end up misinterpreting/misrepresenting them. The Parts comparison, for instance, mentions how you can represent the same thing in two different ways in MusicXML (score-timewise and score-partwise), but only provides an example for one (score-partwise), and doesn't go into much more detail about if this leads to ambiguity in interpretation or if it's just making things needlessly complex.
- adrianh 1 year agoThanks, that's good feedback — will add that to the to-do list.
Just to give you a quick response: look into MusicXML's concept of a "cursor". Parsing a MusicXML document requires you to keep an internal state of a "position", which increments for every note (well, careful, not every note -- not the ones that contain a "chord" subelement!) and can be explicitly moved via the "backup" and "forward" elements: https://w3c.github.io/musicxml/musicxml-reference/elements/f...
For music with multiple voices, this gets easy to mess up. It's also prone to fractional errors in music with tuplets, because sometimes software chooses to use MusicXML position numbers that aren't evenly divisible into the rhythms used in a particular piece of music. That can result in a situation where the MusicXML cursor gets to a state that doesn't actually align with any of the music.
- adrianh 1 year ago
- saltminer 1 year ago
- im3w1l 1 year agoI recently used a funny workflow involving MusicXML. I wanted to learn a song that I only had sheet music for and not being much of a sightsinger, I had manually input the sheet music into Vocaloid so I could sing along with it (OCR exists but in my experience is in such a sorry state and requires so many manual fix ups that for the moment it's easier to type it in manually. As for enterring the data I have experimented and I'm significantly faster and more accurate with a piano roll than typing note names in musescore).
Now as this song had nonsense lyrics and many repetitions and almost-repetitions, the structure of the song didn't quite pop out to me, so what I did was export a midi from vocaloid that I opened musescore. From musescore I then exported it as MusicXML. I opened that in Notepad++ for the sole purpose of pretty printing the xml to normalize the texual representation and saved it right back. I took that and opened it in a jupyter notebook where I scraped it for <measure> elements with regular expressions and then I searched for repeating ones, that I assembled into repeating segments and sub-segments.
This helped me memorize the song.
What I liked about MusicXML was that it was self-documenting enough that I didn't need to reference documentation and I could find candidates for normalization quite easy (for instance I didn't care about directions of stems or inferred dynamics).
A gotcha is that Musescore 4 has a bug where it doesn't show the "midi import" where you can adjust the duration quantization, this didn't matter to me for this song, but I did bite me once in the past when opening a midi from Vocaloid. Musescore 3 works. Without playing around with that there can be an issue where it infers 16th notes as staccato 8th notes and similar.
- adrianh 1 year ago
- Rochus 1 year agoAnyone remembering IEEE 1599? Seems to share a lot of goals.
And there are actually a lot of alternatives, e.g. ABC notation, Alda, Music Macro Language, LilyPond, to name a few. Difficult to decide which one to prefer.
- rooster117 1 year agoI've relied on this format to store songs in my iOS app for years. Representing notation is an interesting problem to solve.
- 1-6 1 year agoSeems like MusicXML is a great format for ML applications. You need to start somewhere and machine-readable code is important.
- treyd 1 year agoMusicXML seems to be more for notation and sheet music typesetting rather than algorithmic operations on the notes themselves. Sure you could train a model on it but you'd be better off doing it on the specific domain and classically translating up to the XML format.
- jsphweid 1 year agoRight, but sheet music is ubiquitous in countless musical contexts and there's very little attention to it from the ML side. Sheet music is somewhat arduous to create and there is definitely room for a lot of automation and ML could help out a lot. I experimented with a tokenizer / GPT-2 (decoder-only) model for MusicXML (https://github.com/jsphweid/xamil) that is able to generate single staff music somewhat coherently. But it's just a first step and I don't care about generating (EDIT: hallucinated) music. Ideally we could add an encoder part to a model like this that takes in MIDI tokens and spits out sheet music. But I haven't gotten that far and don't have the ML chops to do it at this time. But it shouldn't be impossible.
- adgjlsfhk1 1 year agoHaving an MP3 to sheet music would be even better, but probably 10x harder to do well.
- adgjlsfhk1 1 year ago
- jsphweid 1 year ago
- recursive 1 year agoIf you want to do ML on notation, then maybe. MIDI or PCM audio might be a better place to start if you want to work directly on the music.
- zozbot234 1 year agoNote that MIDI is a lot more effective when it comes to ML/AI, since it's multiple orders of magnitude less data. Daniel D. Johnson's (formerly known as Hexahedria, hired by Google Brain) model biaxial-rnn-music-composition is from 2015, requires very few resources for training or inference, and still delivers compelling, SOTA-or-close results wrt. improvising ("noodling") classical piano. https://github.com/danieldjohnson/biaxial-rnn-music-composit... You may also want to check out user kpister's recent port to Python 3.x and aesara: https://github.com/kpister/biaxial-rnn-music-composition (Hat tip: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30328593 ).
Music generation from notation is pretty much the MINST toy-scale equivalent for sequence/language learning models, it's surprising that there's so little attention being paid to it despite how easy it to get started with.
- gnulinux 1 year agoMIDI is absolutely horrible for ML. It lacks very necessary information such as articulation etc which are important to make sense of music. It's popular because it's simple but there is no way to understand music by just looking at MIDI.
I'm a hobbyist in this space (am a composer myself as well a software engineer) and currently all tools are very poor. MusicXML is better than MIDI. MEI [1] is better than MusicXML etc.
The problem is there is miniscule amount of effort and money spent into this field because music overall makes peanuts. It really doesn't justify training expensive ML algorithms which is unfortunate.
- gnulinux 1 year ago
- zozbot234 1 year ago
- treyd 1 year ago
- DonBarredora 1 year agoDear god, stop using XML already.
- bloatfish 1 year ago[dead]