How to Replace Your CPAP in Only 666 Days
357 points by tl 1 year ago | 263 comments- jawngee 1 year agoYeah try importing a CPAP from the states into Vietnam if you want a real adventure.
A $650 cpap machine costs well over $2K here. So I thought I'd import one. Apparently you need a prescription in the states? Ok, get a "prescription" from an online service that basically just asks you if you snore over a video call. Amazing.
Buy machine and have it sent to a freight forwarding service. They fuck up the paperwork.
It gets held in Vietnamese customs for almost 4 months. Go down to customs once a week to argue with the guy. One week you can't have it because it looks used. It doesn't look used.
Next week you can't have it because they think I'm importing to resell it. Yes it's a very hot market right now.
Repeat same processes with different people next successive weeks.
Finally someone says to bring prescription. But they don't write prescriptions for CPAPs here. A lot of hand waving when you tell them that. Go back to cardiologist who told me to get the CPAP and ask for a prescription. Oh no, he says, we don't write prescriptions for that. Can you write a letter saying that you don't write prescriptions and that I need the machine? Oh no, he says, I can't do that.
A couple of weeks later finally get someone at customs to agree that my sleep apnea test is proof enough. Bring the test in. Nobody looks at it. They still release the machine to me.
I would still take this random bureaucracy over American insurance any day of the week though.
- EdwardDiego 1 year agoI feel like you were expected to pay a gratuity several times in that process and they were baffled you didn't.
- appplication 1 year agoMy friend does export/import into SEA. You don’t just have to know who/when to bribe, you have to have an insider set up already. They used to have a guy in customs who would take a monthly payment to forward all her packages through without a second look. He disappeared and then trying to find the next one took months. Nothing was getting through customs, and showing up at the office they would deny any attempts to bribe. It is definitely a very coded art finding the right person, price, and parameters to get something set up like that.
- Solvency 1 year agoIt's always a guy with a gun. Fact of life. Border crossings? Find the guy with the biggest gun and bribe him. South America, Eastern Europe, etc. Import/exports have armed security too.
- Solvency 1 year ago
- jawngee 1 year agoI tried but they wouldn't accept it.
- aniforprez 1 year agoI've dealt with this many times as a South Asian person and it is very possible they still do actually want money. Most people will not ask in a straightforward manner for money and when you offer to pay them, they act all offended. This is a stupid game that I have no idea how it started where they will pretend to not want the money but will still very obviously want it. This has stumped me, being mildly autistic, for the decades of my existence and also stumps foreigners a lot. I cannot proffer a solution. Sometimes asking works, most of the time it doesn't and the other party feels unhappy about it and then when you decide enough is enough and want to pay, another guessing game begins where you need to gauge what amount satisfies them. It's incredibly goddamn annoying and I wish they just told you they want a bribe or money instead of engaging with these weird, obtuse, coy behaviours and then I have to obsess over whether I made a faux pas by paying/not paying them
- aniforprez 1 year ago
- BossingAround 1 year ago"Gratuity" is an amazing euphemism for corruption in a system :))
- EdwardDiego 1 year agoHaha, yeah, I was thinking air-quotes when I typed it.
- EdwardDiego 1 year ago
- samstave 1 year agoWho's an expat who knows sliding some cheese? Not this guy.
- Roritharr 1 year agoI learned recently that you want a fixer that knows and bribes people where it's customary and expected. Going through lengthy processes deaf to the trigger phrases will make your life, which could be incredibly easy, unbearably hard in many countries.
- Roritharr 1 year ago
- appplication 1 year ago
- coldtea 1 year ago>Go down to customs once a week to argue with the guy. One week you can't have it because it looks used. It doesn't look used. Next week you can't have it because they think I'm importing to resell it.
Cousin Eddie: I'm real glad that things are going good for you, Clark.
Clark: Mm-hm.
Cousin Eddie: I got laid off when they closed that asbestos factory.
Clark: Ahem.
Cousin Eddie: And now, wouldn't you know it... ...the Army cut my disability pension... ...because they said the plate in my head wasn't big enough.
Clark: Shoo.
Catherine: Eddie, Clark and Ellen don't want to hear about our troubles.
Clark: No, no. It's very interesting.
Aunt Edna: Why don't you just ask him for the money, Eddie? He sure as hell can't take a hint.
- xrd 1 year agoI recently read the book "Gaming Behind the Iron Curtain." It's about the former Soviet satellite states trying to play video games inside the Czech Republicb in the late 80s. They had to smuggle in computers hidden inside suitcases from England. This feels almost like the same thing.
I'm stuck in thinking that someone smart could break apart these CPAP machines and bring in necessary parts, then find other parts from China and hand carry those in. Then reassemble them inside Vietnam. A price differential of $1500 seems like an interesting arbitrage opportunity, maybe better than drug dealing. And there aren't chip sniffing dogs in the airport.
What a nightmare.
- methou 1 year agoI had a similar experience but in Japan.
My CPAP machine was held by customs, they asked me to provide some extra paperwork from another department, which boiles down to a form and a "prescription". Fortunately they accept american prescriptions. I emailed all of the docs to the department, and they told me since I'm physically in Japan, I have to do what Japanese would do - send a physical mail in an envolope. A week later I got the approval mailed back to me, scanned them and emailed them back to the customs, they released my package.
Then, the shipper messed up with my address, they use a local partner for delivery, but failed to pass them my phone number and the second line in my address. Apparently the poor delivery guy attempted to deliver for a week, I found it out in the tracking page, called the customer service, they figured out and eventually have it delivered.
I thought it was terrible, but now.
- positr0n 1 year agoBack in the day I remember reading patio11 posts on navigating the Japanese bureaucracy and he described this as "doing SQL JOINs" across different departments by filling out forms and visiting each one.
- codewench 1 year agoJapanese customs is a special thing. I had a plastic Christmas tree held in quarantine for 9 months because the box said "tree", and all attempts to point out that the tree was in fact fake, and probably not of serious biological concern feel on deaf ears.
- positr0n 1 year ago
- forinti 1 year agoI don't know Vietnam, but to my South American sensibility, it looks like they were fishing for a bribe.
- nimos 1 year agoDid you not try to pay some coffee money? Do you have local Vietnamese connections?
Seems like something you could have paid 500-1000k (20-40USD) and been done with.
- petesergeant 1 year agoIf you need to do this again, fly to Bangkok, they have ResMed and Philips authorised resellers with machines already in country, although incredibly enough you can also just order them off Lazada
- yieldcrv 1 year agolol I felt that last part
I had a business trying to get an institutional trading account, and all these compliance officers kept the application in limbo for a year
finally the exchange’s general counsel or someone maybe even the CFO said I needed to show my company’s AML/KYC policy.
I have my lawyer draft a comprehensive AML/KYC policy.
I told the financial institution that my legal counsel had prepared our "ANTI-MONEY LAUNDERING AND “KNOW YOUR CUSTOMER” PROCEDURES Which should fulfill all of your company’s compliance goals”
And apparently that contained the magic words because they approved the account instantly, after being in account creation limbo for an entire year, they never even asked for or looked at the document
- verticalscaler 1 year agoIt isn't good to argue that way in this part of the world, I hope you didn't raise your voice - not 100% sure about Vietnam but in any of its surrounding countries - they would lose face and become uncooperative.
I learned the hard way after a few experiences like yours to telegraph as little frustration or anger as humanly possible. Reasoning also only goes so far.
But if you appeal on some technicality, even a rule of your own invention..
Carol Beer presents differently across cultures (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pw8m_NTJ_0).
- jevoten 1 year ago> Next week you can't have it because they think I'm importing to resell it.
With all the "free trade" agreements Vietnam is party to [1], you'd think this would be perfectly fine. Funny how that works, isn't it?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_trade_agreements_of_Vietn...
- bugbuddy 1 year agoYour mistake was not bringing an envelope full of USD as evidence to be submitted to the relevant authority to expedite the service. Guess why it costs over $2k? Additional administrative taxes included. Also, you are supposed to do this through somebody that knows somebody that works somewhere.
- strawberryfie 1 year agoI guess random bureaucracy is ok when the treatment in question isn’t urgent.
- EdwardDiego 1 year ago
- londons_explore 1 year agoPlease folks remember that it isn't compulsory to use a companies byzantine process.
Instead, check your insurance policy wording that you are covered, spend the money on a new machine, send a single letter to the insurer asking to be reimbursed, and when they don't reimburse within 30 days file in small claims court.
They'll pay. They don't want to physically show up in court or have you send bailiffs to their HQ over $3000 that they probably owe you anyway.
- genocidicbunny 1 year agoUnfortunate that you cannot get additional damages against them. That sort of behaviour really needs to be heavily punished -- say, forcing them to cover every single CPAP prescribed for the next year for free, with the executives having to personally pay if the company can't afford to.
Byzantine processes when dealing with medical issues should be punished with Byzantine punishments.
- thfuran 1 year agoByzantine punishments were more along the lines of castration and facial amputation.
- genocidicbunny 1 year agoWho's to say we can't get a little retro?
Little late for the new year's stuff, but let's party like it's 499!
- philwelch 1 year agoReminds me of the funniest Crusader Kings bug of all time—a performance issue where the game laboriously calculated over and over again whether or not every character in the Byzantine Empire wanted to blind every other character in the Byzantine Empire.
- genocidicbunny 1 year ago
- londons_explore 1 year agoIn most places you can at least get back the court fees (which are typically a few hundred bucks).
Unfortunately sometimes you can't get back the court fees, and in situations like that, rather than spending $3000 on some new medical gear and battling insurance I would be very tempted to go to eBay, buy it 2nd hand from someone for $150, and just use that. Better time/effort/money/result tradeoff IMO.
- patja 1 year agoeBay is pretty good at enforcing their policy banning sales of medical equipment requiring a prescription. They yank any listing for a CPAP very quickly.
- genocidicbunny 1 year agoI don't want to get back just my court fees. If I could have it, heads would roll, but in lieu of that, I will take severe personal penalties to all those involved. Their tunes will change really frakking quick if the consequence is being put out on the street (or worse) for frakking around with people's medical coverage.
- patja 1 year ago
- thfuran 1 year ago
- Moto7451 1 year agoWe lost my wife’s CPAP while traveling. Through insurance it would have been a month of paperwork, an exception made, and $600. Without insurance it was no wait and $650.
Guess which way we went…
I’m sorry the author had to deal with any of this. A lot of pandemic scarcity and multiple recalls made it hard to get supplies for a long time. My wife’s first CPAP is out of commission because the parts will simply never be made again. In between the pandemic start and the “well we all gave up” point three new models, recalls, and various mergers happened but not one replacement set of filters were delivered.
If it was any sort of other filter I’d just buy a replacement from Amazon and call it a day, but that doesn’t seem appropriate for this situation. Some people did and apparently (per doctors not my own research or anything I can verify) old OEM and new but improperly made third party filters can start flaking off while the machine runs due to how CPAPs work.
Now though? Apparently it’s easy to get a new model and all the components from a supplier… at least if you skip insurance.
- syndicatedjelly 1 year agoIf you need repairs done in the future, see if the local university’s biomedical engineering department has a student chapter of Project C.U.R.E. Students may volunteer to fix the device (off warranty of course). They work for free for needy families, and if you’re not in the former category, consider donating to their organization
- syndicatedjelly 1 year ago
- chrisandchris 1 year agoThinking about that I really start to love the Swiss version of health insurance where (with most providers) you'll just provide your insurance card and they'll pay first and then decide whether to get reimbursement from you.
Much more easier to fight than if you'll have to bring them to pay something you paid first.
- from-nibly 1 year agoThat's generally how it works in the US as well.
- from-nibly 1 year ago
- q7xvh97o2pDhNrh 1 year agoSomeone should start a SaaS that just automates this process.
Thinking about it, the only moderately difficult part would be compiling a list of small-claims courts and understanding the different paperwork each one requires.
After that, the whole thing could just be a single page with a few form fields (email, insurance company info, upload purchase receipt), a credit card form for the SaaS to collect its fee, and an API integration that uses one of those physical-mail APIs to send out the paperwork.
- nojs 1 year ago> the only moderately difficult part would be compiling a list of small-claims courts and understanding the different paperwork each one requires.
In reality the difficult part would actually be getting your service in front of people like OP at the right time. How do you imagine the guy in this post finds you and pays for your service? Have you ever looked for a similar service yourself when you faced similar issues?
- lolc 1 year agoI think this is where search engine ads would work. The keyword is Anthem. The message is "File Anthem claims through us. Get paid in no more than 60 days or we waive your $10 fee."
- lolc 1 year ago
- jasonjayr 1 year agoA use of AI/LMM I could support: read the policy documents and produce (or execute) the exact steps to get the insurance company to honor their obligations.
- danuker 1 year agoHell, even reading the policies and responding whether I'm covered (and where it says so/hints towards) would be a worthwhile service.
- ericjmorey 1 year agoThe policy is largely written in code that will not be released to a policy holder.
- danuker 1 year ago
- nojs 1 year ago
- epgui 1 year agoThat would be great if more than 0.2% of the population had a vague idea of how to access the legal system.
- silverlyra 1 year agoand this gets me wondering; what could we accomplish if we took 0.2% of the time we spent writing (let alone reading) internet comments, and instead used that time to engage in our state democratic processes, and help update our public school education standards to build a robust civil society!
my high school made sure I knew how to use both a band saw and a stand mixer; why not a courtroom? that's a systemic failure we could yet address
- silverlyra 1 year ago
- Waterluvian 1 year ago> and when they don't reimburse within 30 days file in small claims court
The very nature of having to be adversarial and “guard up” on everything is what exhausts people and sours a culture. It’s also inaccessible to many who are already exhausted and just don’t have another manual process and battle in them.
- dmvdoug 1 year agoHowever, your policy might also contain (more likely) an arbitration clause, requiring you to submit any dispute to arbitration or (sometimes) a form selection clause, requiring you to submit a dispute in a particular legal forum other than arbitration.
Note: some states do not allow forum selection clauses in insurance contracts, by statute or by case law. However, that will not stop a company from boilerplating it in. so, just because the policy might have the clause does not mean it’s necessarily enforceable.
On the other hand, I get the point that they may just pay the money rather than send it to legal to handle. YMMV.
- xrd 1 year agoDoes small claims court work in some states and not other ones? I'm assuming you are us based? And my understanding was that small claims courts are very different in each state.
- londons_explore 1 year agoThey are, but the basic idea works pretty much everywhere.
In general, small claims courts aren't very strict on the correct procedure being followed - they are explicitly designed to be accessible to non-experts.
- londons_explore 1 year ago
- jedberg 1 year agoThey'll pay and then drop you at the next anniversary. Can only use that trick a few times.
- genocidicbunny 1 year ago
- NelsonMinar 1 year ago"Compliance" is the other half of the US insurance nightmare with CPAP. Often insurers demand access to logs of the machine to verify you are actually using it before they will reimburse you. CPAP machines have an elaborate tamper-proof logging mechanism including a cellular modem for data uploads outside your control. Largely to enable surveillance by US insurance companies.
In addition to the surveillance being offensive and intrusive it also harms sleep apnea treatment. Some half of people who need a CPAP find they have a hard time learning to use it, difficulty sleeping with the mask on. It's mostly a psychological problem and one stressor for it is the fear that if they can't get it to work then they will be on the hook for $$$$. So they have a harder time sleeping and give up on the CPAP. It's hideous.
All that being said, CPAP can be life-changing if you have sleep apnea. If you suspect you have a problem breathing while you're asleep please talk to a doctor about it. CPAP works well for a lot of people but there are other treatment options too.
- _qua 1 year agoAs someone who treats people with CPAP, it’s absurd how many people get them and then don’t use them hardly at all. Yes there’s an adaptation period where you need to get used to using it, but you do need to use it for it to do anything. It doesn’t seem crazy for insurance to want to not keep paying for something that is sitting under a pile of clothes in the corner.
- elric 1 year agoI don't know. I feel like the compliance checks are more expensive than the machines at this point. They retail for around $/€ 500. I suspect that sleep centres (or whoever hands out CPAP devices to patients where you are) get significant volume discounts. Say they last for 5 years. That's a near zero cost.
Of course, someone is upcharging somewhere, but that's hardly the patient's fault.
- prepend 1 year agoI went through this with my provider and insurer, Aetna.
They had me rent the machine for 30 or 60 days. The machine had a cell modem that reported data to medresair, the manufacturer, and my sleep clinic checked that. A nurse called me twice to check in, sent the something to the insurer and after 60 days submitted a new claim.
It was actually one of the most efficient processes I’ve ever had with my insurance.
Like everything in the US health system, experiences vary depending on provider and payer.
- prepend 1 year ago
- mikebenfield 1 year agoI tried to use a CPAP machine for a while. I honestly could never figure out how I was supposed to breathe with it. At all. It seemed to be physically impossible. I'd try for a while each night, then get frustrated and stop so I could get some sleep. Completely useless to me.
Fortunately I was able to just return it, but if I hadn't been able to, why should that mean insurance wouldn't cover it? I was prescribed this device and it didn't work for me.
- shimon 1 year agoInsurers don't want to pay for unnecessary treatments, including equipment. Maybe your provider could have done a better job selecting the right mask or settings for the CPAP? Maybe they could have trained you in their office?
I'm not saying the surveillance and payment-held-hostage model is the best, but it does at least attempt to provide some useful incentives.
- pareidolia 1 year agoCPAP makes breathing harder than normal. It's antiquated technology, superseded by something called bilevel-CPAP (BiPAP) which has the quality that it makes breathing actually _easier_. It's slightly more expensive than plain CPAP so insurance and doctors withhold it from the patients and try to keep it a secret.
- NelsonMinar 1 year agoI'm sorry to hear you had that problem, you're not alone. I hope you found some alternative treatment that works for you! It's possible to succeed with CPAP even if it's hard at first, too, with various adjustments. I hope you've found a way to get a good night's sleep.
- shimon 1 year ago
- logbiscuitswave 1 year agoHow do you feel about the new surgical options like Inspire Sleep as an alternative for people who can’t tolerate CPAP?
- _qua 1 year agoIt's a lot more involved than CPAP. You need to have a low enough BMI to qualify which excludes a not insignificant proportion of apnea patients. You need to have predominately obstructive sleep apnea since the device can't treat central apneas (where you just stop attempting to breathe). You need to be fit enough to tolerate surgery. You usually need to have an induced sleep study where you get put to sleep with propofol while someone uses a nasal endoscope to watch what part of your airway becomes occluded when you sleep to see if it's even something that can be treated with the device. And then even after all that the device essentially zaps your tongue to make it move and open your airway and for some people they find this intolerable, and the device needs to be turned off. After all that I think it's effective in about 50% of people.
So given all of that, I think it's better to work on trying different masks and other strategies for getting used to the mask before considering the implant.
- _qua 1 year ago
- elric 1 year ago
- 1 year ago
- _qua 1 year ago
- tylervigen 1 year agoI've worked on the claims management process flow for payer like Anthem before. It's probably obvious, but this story hints at some serious deficiencies in the backend processes.
One way to look at it is that this Byzantine process helps Anthem by trapping valid claims in a black hole of bureaucracy. That way they don't need to pay, right?
It's not quite that simple. It's true that incentives are not usually aligned, but in reality the payment P&L impact is often far away from the claims processing administrative decisions. At many payers (like Anthem), the ultimate 'payer' for most of the cost may not actually be Anthem. They may be the third-party administrator charging back to an employer, or the Federal government. Even if it is Anthem, the owner of the cost center for this broken administrative process is almost certainly removed from whomever runs the actuarial accounting to decide what kinds of services to cover and how much to charge customers (except, as the author found, once they unite at the level of the CEO).
Ultimately for Anthem, this claim cost them a lot more to handle than if they had just paid out in the first place - even if they were the ultimate payer. Consider how much time the author spent on the phone with customer service representatives. Many of those were almost certainly contracted out and charged to Anthem by the minute. Then consider the claims processing backend, also likely contracted through third-party claims processing and management systems. It would have been simpler to manage the first one straight through.
Usually what it comes down to is that it is hard to estimate the ROI for investing in fixing a problem like this, because the benefits are spread out over many small cases. One way to prove it out is to highlight some of those small cases so that payers feel the pain and recognize the need for change. Thus, I am glad the author published this complete story.
- pas 1 year ago> They may be the third-party administrator charging back to an employer,
can you please elaborate on this? does this mean that some companies (employers) directly see and pay their employees medical stuff on their books?
> Ultimately for Anthem, this claim cost them a lot more to handle than if they had just paid out in the first place
... well, of course, but the whole middleman game costs the US many many many serious percents of each year's GDP. and probably the whole culture of reimbursement despair makes a lot of money to insurance companies, and even probably keeps rates a bit lower than they ought to be, and keeps people sick (and of course eventually leads to more serious problems that in turn cost a lot more, but if those are shifted to pensioner age then they might be covered federally, right? again a win for the insurers)
- jffry 1 year agoYeah companies directly running insurance is a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-funded_health_care
- patja 1 year agoThis is how a lot of big companies work. They self-insure. They set the rules, pay all the bills, and the insurance company just administers things.
If you work for a company that does this, be aware that the things you dislike about your insurance coverage may well have been designed that way by your employer, not the insurance company. Don't curse the insurance company when you don't like the benefits. Ask your manager and HR department why your employer chose that rule or limit.
- shimon 1 year agoAlmost every sufficiently large employer does this. Instead of paying premiums to an insurance company which owns the risk (and also makes a profit from that) the large employer pays the actual costs of care, and a percentage to the insurance company for the administrative work (using their provider network, claims processing systems, etc.).
- shimon 1 year ago
- jffry 1 year ago
- pas 1 year ago
- verytrivial 1 year agoYou can now understand why the UK is holding on the its NHS with white knuckles despite the Conservative push to dissolve it by stealth.
- hnlmorg 1 year agoI completely agree.
I suffer from sleep apnea and I too had an issue with my CPAP machine. The NHS fixed it within a week.
I can’t imagine spending 2 years chasing different health providers to sort a simple repair.
- vertis 1 year agoYes, Australia too. You can take my medicare system (NHS equiv) from my cold dead hands. It's the only way you're going to.
- humanrebar 1 year agoI'd rather go the other way and not require a prescription for a breathing machine. They're not habit forming and you won't OD on breathing.
- jrockway 1 year agoI agree with this. The sleep apnea world is kind of a weird racket; in order to buy $150 worth of electronics, you need to pay a doctor $5000 to interpret the results of a sleep test. Insurance companies require this because they don't want to waste money on electronics if there is no disease that needs to be treated. But of course, the testing costs them more than the devices. (And the devices aren't $150, because they aren't marketed directly to consumers, they're marketed towards insurance companies. That means you get to jack up the price because people aren't using real money to buy them.)
There was probably some argument for requiring a prescription when someone needed to adjust the pressure, but now that the machines do that themselves, they should probably just be available at Wal-Mart next to the reading glasses.
- FireBeyond 1 year ago> And the devices aren't $150, because they aren't marketed directly to consumers, they're marketed towards insurance companies
Apropos of anything else, the newest CPAP machines are relatively sophisticated. They may not be worth the $1,100 they sell for, but definitely more than $150. $500, maybe.
> The sleep apnea world is kind of a weird racket; in order to buy $150 worth of electronics, you need to pay a doctor $5000 to interpret the results of a sleep test.
ENT too. I had a deviated septum. Most (all?) of my life. Finally did something about it when I was 40. Went to an ENT, who was great. "Yup, right nostril, 90% occluded". "Makes sense. So when do we schedule the surgery?"
He sighs, and with a roll of his eyes (at the process, not me), "Welllll.... first I'm going to prescribe you these two nasal sprays so that you can come back in 30 days and tell me that, to our mutual shock, they didn't realign the cartilage in your nasal septum. At that point, insurance will approve the surgery and I can have it done within 3 days of getting that approval back."
Thankfully, that went like clockwork. I saw him on day 30, and they had an approval and 34 days after seeing him for the first time, it was taken care of.
But what a fuckshow.
- FireBeyond 1 year ago
- jrockway 1 year ago
- petesergeant 1 year agoI dunno, I’ve just spent 18 months in Dubai, where I had private insurance, and it was a breeze. See a UK-trained specialist for almost anything within a day or two, and hospital direct billing meant I almost never had to interact with the insurer directly.
I guess my point is that as reassuring (as a Brit) as it is to know the NHS is there, private insurance isn’t necessarily bad if regulated well (and that matches my experience of having private insurance in the UK too), it’s just America’s seems incredibly poorly regulated.
- jameshart 1 year agoA consistent theme in responses here is that how long you just wait for a doctor depends on location, and the preponderance of evidence suggests that the differentiating factor between locations where it is easy to see a doctor vs waiting a long time is how many golf courses are around.
Correlation isn’t causation of course. Not suggesting golf courses cause doctors. But in general in this thread I see people from heavily golfed areas saying ‘I found a doctor really quickly’ and people from golf deserts talking about long waits.
- petesergeant 1 year agoI wonder if richer areas tax NHS resources less or more. I could see cost-per-patient-per-year being less in affluent areas for a number of reasons
- petesergeant 1 year ago
- eszed 1 year agoI think the critical element in the UK hasn't been regulation, so much as the NHS putting a hard price floor under everything that private providers offer. The two systems worked symbiotically. As / if the NHS is killed, private medicine will enshittify as well.
- jameshart 1 year ago
- klabetron 1 year agoThough it’d probably take 666 days to see a sleep specialist and get your first CPAP machine… (which I suspect you’d agree is part of the stealth dissolution plan)
- robmccoll 1 year agoI have terrible news about systems built on private health insurance (USA): it will still take 666 days to see a specialist, and you will need a referral from your PCP who may also decide they want to see you in person first. This may be its own scheduling nightmare. Then you may find out that your preferred specialist is out of network for your private insurance. The waits are a generally a supply and demand issue more than a beurocracies issue, but I can assure you that multiplying the number of beurocracies involved in getting healthcare doesn't speed anything up.
- 1 year ago
- dralley 1 year agoI've never had to wait more than a month to see a specialist in the US
- 1 year ago
- p_l 1 year agoDepending on how defunding worked so far in one's area, but NHS generally prioritised potentially dangerous issues.
Means it's easier to be frustrated waiting and then getting a 10 minute talk when it's flu or something similar, but get seen to in 10 minutes after arriving at a walk-in centre because you're worried of bine fissure in leg (turned out to be inflammation fortunately)
- stavros 1 year agoI went to A&E with symptoms of appendicitis. They took me in, put me in a bed, next day I was operated on, stayed one night and out the door. Everyone was great and seemed very competent.
This was on a three-day business trip to the UK, which was extremely unlucky, but the NHS was fantastic.
- 1 year ago
- stavros 1 year ago
- hnlmorg 1 year agoMy sleep apnea went from initial visit to an NHS GP to a working CPAP machine in under 3 months.
This includes multiple consultations with sleep specialists and zero chasing from me.
- robmccoll 1 year ago
- FireBeyond 1 year ago> despite the Conservative push to dissolve it by stealth
I'd question the "by stealth" part of this.
- MrBuddyCasino 1 year agoThe NHS is a failed system that absolutely nobody is envious of, except brits because for some weird reason, they seem to think that the alternative is poor people dying in the streets.
Similar systems as the NHS have been introduced and subsequently canned in favor of more sane approaches in other European countries, which now have better (but still socialized) healthcare as a consequence.
There is no central european country with a similar amount of health care horror stories than the UK, and none where it plays a similarly important role in its identity. It boggles the mind.
- dhc02 1 year ago"The NHS is a failed system that absolutely nobody is envious of"
...except people in the US.
- 0xBDB 1 year agoIn my experience people in the US aren't envious of the NHS. Most of us are aware that the grass is not green on any side of that fence.
People in the US would like a system that works. That means not waiting 666 days for a CPAP. It also means not having the government strongly nudge you to off yourself with its assistance, as in Canada. And it means not having an ever-increasing number of deaths by waiting, as with the NHS, which typically don't happen here for most kinds of care.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/aug/30/national-tra...
Sadly, healthcare is expensive to provide regardless of who's paying. The NHS is able to provide even that troubled level of care because it pays its medical staff poorly by American standards, which it is able to do because it relies heavily on immigrants, which it is able to do in large part because those immigrants can't come to America and make 3x the salary since we make it incredibly difficult for foreign medical credentials to be recognized here. If we quit doing that tomorrow, the NHS would collapse by Friday.
- MrBuddyCasino 1 year agoIf you think the problems of US healthcare are caused by too much „free market“ and could be solved or even marginally improved by an NHS-style socialized replacement with even more government interference, you have never seriously investigated the issue.
- bigstrat2003 1 year agoPeople in the US, by and large, aren't envious of the NHS. For most people, if they've even heard of the NHS they have a negative opinion of it.
- 0xBDB 1 year ago
- dhc02 1 year ago
- pareidolia 1 year agoThe NHS is so far behind the current science it's unreal. They're still using the 50% hypopnea defintion.
- hnlmorg 1 year ago
- dmazzoni 1 year agoI use Kaiser Permanente as my health care provider. For those who aren't aware, it's one of the few "integrated care" providers in the U.S., meaning they act as both the health insurance and health care provider.
Now, Kaiser is FAR from perfect - they have their share of problems.
But....this sort of nightmare is not one of them. With Kaiser, doctors are free to prescribe whatever they think is medically necessary, and if they prescribe it, it's covered, guaranteed. There's no separate claims department.
Obviously there are some exceptions, like if it's an emergency and you need to get care outside of Kaiser and then submit a claim.
But, the vast majority of the time it just works.
Now, sometimes we aren't happy with what Kaiser offers. So then we go outside of Kaiser and pay out-of-pocket.
Our friends sometimes tell us we're crazy when we do that. We just spent $1200 out-of-pocket to see a specialist because Kaiser didn't want to refer us. What they don't realize, though, is that we saved $3000/year by choosing Kaiser over the next cheapest health insurance provider from our employer. So we're still coming out ahead.
And most importantly, we have the peace of mind knowing that any time we end up in a Kaiser hospital, we'll never once see a bill.
I think we really need more integrated systems like Kaiser. Imagine if there was actually competition in that space, where you could choose between competing hospital systems that came with complete integrated coverage, no middle man.
- seattle_spring 1 year agoI'm a Kaiser member and have to get CPAP supplies through a company called Apria. It has been the absolute most godawful experience I've ever had dealing with a company. Worst than a thousand Comcasts. I genuinely don't understand how you could be a CPAP patient with Kaiser without dealing with Apria?
- FireBeyond 1 year agoMy girlfriend had the same experience literally this week. The whole thing was Kafkaesque.
She got sent an at home sleep study kit. Set it up, did it. Waited, nothing. Had a run around between the sleep center and her physician. Eventually got a hold of someone. "Well, of course you don't have results, you need to send it back to us. And if you don't they'll charge you $1200 for it". "Uhh, the kit gave me a PIN and specifically said I could dispose of it afterwards" (she hadn't, yet, in case she needed to redo the test). "Oh, well, no-one told us that!" (How is this surprising to you?)
In any case, someone reviews her study, diagnoses her with sleep apnea, writes a script for a CPAP.
She surmises this, because she never spoke to anyone, or got any messages in her portal. She realizes when Apria calls her to verify and confirm details for the CPAP machine (I think she pays $170, then $19/month for 3 months to rent it while they establish compliance, and then if she is using it, Kaiser will pay for it).
She confirms everything and waits. And after a while, sees it's still in "label created" tracking status. Calls them. "Oh, we're waiting for this form from you", that until now she's never been told about. She gets it emailed to her, signs, scans, sends. Asks questions about mask options. "Your provider will discuss that with you."
Uhh, you're about to ship this now. She hasn't spoken to any provider, and the sleep center and the physician are debating over who should talk to her, I suppose?
So she looks over them with me. I'm not a doctor, though I'm a paramedic. I'm experienced with ventilators and occasionally giving acute patients CPAP treatments. So I can talk with just enough knowledge to be dangerous. So we pick out a mask, and finalize.
CPAP arrived on Friday. No-one's spoken to her about it, so she's like "I guess I just start wearing and using it". I had to adjust a few settings for her around pressure and ramp and EPR (expiratory pressure relief) to help someone new to therapy acclimate to how it works.
So, ironically, though not good by any definition, Apria ended up being the best part of the process.
- logbiscuitswave 1 year agoMy DME used to be Lincare was equally terrible. They were awful. They never had replacement consumables in stock, and I had to deal with months worth of delays to get things I needed. That’s why I went to CPAP.com (like OP) for a time. It was annoying having to coordinate with my insurance company to get reimbursements since they didn’t direct bill, but at least I would always have my equipment on time. (As a bonus, it was cheaper than Lincare to boot.)
- ebergen 1 year agoI was supposed to go through Apria during the shortage a few years ago. They kept giving me longer estimates for when a machine would be available. After calling and waiting a few weeks I bought my own online and had it the next day. It was worth the out of pocket to get a cpap sooner as I was barely able to function at work due to sleep issues.
I refuse to do business with Apria. They’re the worst company I’ve ever dealt with.
- patja 1 year agoI have Kaiser and when I need a new CPAP or supplies I just order from CPAPMan or whoever, and pay out of my HSA account. Not all plans allow HSAs though.
- FireBeyond 1 year ago
- lepus 1 year agoThat works sometimes, but you could still get screwed if that out of pocket care is wildly expensive. A friend of mine needed a drug that costs about $85k total but was the only effective treatment at the time, and Kaiser doctors told him they wouldn't prescribe it until his condition started giving him organ failure(!), so he had to switch insurance to get it and luckily the timing worked out.
- koops 1 year agoAgreed. The best part is that you don't need to second-guess decisions wondering whether or not the course of action is better financially for the decision-maker.
- seattle_spring 1 year ago
- pockybum522 1 year agoThis feels like every health insurance endeavor I have ever attempted.
In any other industry, this would be called "fraud."
- legutierr 1 year agoIn any other industry he would have switched to a company that was better run.
- legutierr 1 year ago
- sanarothe 1 year agoReimbursement is the #1 barrier to bringing a novel therapy to market in the US for the company I'm working for. The technology is decades old and proven (the novel part is where it's being put in the body) - the clinical benefits are now proven.
But it's a battle to get US insurance to cover the therapy - we have about 3x more patients confirmed as clinically eligible than actually get the therapy. (That is to say, US insurance rejects ~75%+ of claims).
As a result, there is an entire segment of the org dedicated to reimbursement. We have a team of professional insurance-bullshit-waders - they call, they file claims, they follow up, and I hear them asking for Document Control Numbers and Call Reference Numbers. There are 'Government Affairs' people who lobby with the VA and Medica{re, aid?}.
The payer barriers outside of US have been much lower. (But EU has it's own problems with medical device barriers... a rant for another day.)
- quickthrower2 1 year agoMet someone coming from US to Australia to visit and was nicely surprised you can just go buy a CPAP, cheaply with no referral. Just like buying a dishwasher or something.
Makes me wonder if in the US a trip to mexico or canada or somewhere could make this easier.
- RecycledEle 1 year agoBingo!
As someone with multiple "pre-existing conditions" who cares for a stroke survivor (my wife) and a stage 4 chronic kidney disease patient (my mother-in-law,) I suggest we do the following: 1. make private health insurance illegal 2. pass a Constitutional amendment allowing every human the unlimited and absolute right to buy, make, modify, and sell medical things including importing and exporting those items.
It is cheaper just to buy things than to use insurance. The stock holders need to loose all of their equity then go to prison.
- hn_throwaway_99 1 year ago> pass a Constitutional amendment allowing every human the unlimited and absolute right to buy, make, modify, and sell medical things including importing and exporting those items.
The ironically terrifying evidence about what a horrible idea this is is that it was just in the news that the FDA said that recalled CPAP machines made by Philips killed 561 people: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/fda-sleep-apnea-philips-recall-...
- Karunamon 1 year agoHow does that not demonstrate the ineffectiveness of the regulations?
Plain old consumer device safety stuff would apply here.
- cabaalis 1 year agoI also have experienced various delays related to my cpap machine. I wonder how much of this debacle is because people in the know knew that this was coming, and therefore intentionally delayed anything to do with cpaps.
- quickthrower2 1 year agoThey went too extreme. Maybe let people buy the device but it still needs to be manufactured to regulations.
However I don’t know enough about CPAP to judge whether you should need a doctors cert or some kind of training cert on the device. Can a CPAP harm you if you incorrectly use it / use incorrect settings?
- Karunamon 1 year ago
- thfuran 1 year ago>pass a Constitutional amendment allowing every human the unlimited and absolute right to buy, make, modify, and sell medical things including importing and exporting those items.
I'm pretty sure I've never heard of a worse idea for a law. Removing any possibility of regulating the quality or efficacy of medicines and medical devices will injure and kill far more people than any resulting improved access would help.
- dangus 1 year agoFunnily enough, we have a constitutional amendment guaranteeing the right to own machines that are designed with the singular purpose of killing people. How could a “medical device second amendment” be worse?
- dangus 1 year ago
- GiorgioG 1 year agoThe problem is most Americans don’t have these types of chronic health issues, so it’s not an issue for them. I have a type 1 diabetic son, the amount of money we have spent on health insurance and medical equipment/supples is criminal.
- wwilim 1 year agoI feel sorry for you, man. I have T1D as well, but pump supplies + CGM work out to something on the order of $200 a month in Poland. I am not even sure how much exactly, because I don't bother to count since it's not big money for me. Still a lot given the median pay, and you still have to buy the pump out of pocket, but nowhere near what's going on in the States.
- wwilim 1 year ago
- ThrowawayTestr 1 year agoIs step 3 to eliminate the FDA? The idea of letting randos modify and sell medical devices is terrifying.
- RecycledEle 1 year agoA CPAP is a simple device. It is a fan that generates constant air pressure, with a heater and a bit of water to humidify the air.
The idea that the law prevents me from pulling defective foam out of a device I own is terrifying.
- elteto 1 year agoThis is the typical libertarian insanity: "Regulations are bad, ergo there should be no regulations. And once we get rid of them everything will just work because somehow everyone will still abide by _some_ rules, although they are not required."
- RecycledEle 1 year ago
- hn_throwaway_99 1 year ago
- RecycledEle 1 year ago
- ch33zer 1 year agoThis made me furious. I would have given up long ago, which of course is what anthem wants. Congrats to the author for sticking with it.
- yegle 1 year agoI too had my bad interaction with my insurance company. Out of blue they start rejecting my doctor's prescription for a very common (and cheap) medication. It took me more than 1 month with my awesome primary care doctor's persistent to figure out that the 1000mg version of my medication is the reason it got rejected. My doctor has to prescribe the 500mg version and I simply take two pills.
But no communication from the insurance company told me that.
- ncallaway 1 year agoI think every denial from an insurance company (that’s denying care prescribed by a doctor), should be required to come from a named and licensed doctor, who is responsible for your care as if they are the treating physician (and thus subject to the same medical malpractice laws).
A denial should be required to come with either an alternate treatment plan, or an alternative diagnosis and treatment plan.
If a doctor issues a denial after reviewing your case for 3 seconds (as has happened in the past), they should be liable for medical malpractice lawsuits.
In your case, that would mean the denial would be required to come with an alternative treatment plan, which would say 2x500mg.
- francis_t_catte 1 year agoI had a similar experience with a common, cheap medication, where my insurance started denying the prescription out of the blue. it took several weeks of back and forth with my doctor, and then a lengthy amount of time on hold with the insurance, company where the exasperated pharmacist and I were eventually told that only 15, 24, and 90 day in person pickup supplies were now covered.
my prescription was for a 30 day supply.
- ncallaway 1 year ago
- woodruffw 1 year agoThis was a nightmarish read. I'm glad he was eventually able to get the replacement paid for.
On top of your state's DOI, there are a few agencies that can (typically) be used to bring insurance and other companies more swiftly into compliance with the laws they're meant to proactively follow:
* Many state AGs are responsive to well-documented problems and will send a warning on official letterhead.
* This won't work for insurance, but the CFPB[1] has a relatively smooth complaint process for financial issues, and (anecdotally) generally produces a rapid outcome.
- RecycledEle 1 year agoFrom the article: > Listen, gobsmacked, as they explain that they decided your claim was in fact an appeal, and transferred it immediately to the appeals department. The appeals department examined the appeal and looked for the claim it was appealing. Finding none, they decided the appeal was moot, and rejected it.
Tell me why this is not fraud. Tell me why insurance company employees are not facing prison time.
- mikigraf 1 year agoIt’s surprising to me that not only in my home country is the process of having a CPAP machine covered by insurance a long and complicated one.
In my case, it took almost 12 months to receive my first CPAP machine, which then turned out to be refurbished. Initially, I had to visit a doctor, who had an available appointment in two months. He then referred me to a sleep laboratory (another two-month wait). After my sleep study, they sent me back to the doctor, who confirmed I had sleep apnea and said I needed to return to the sleep lab to test some settings—a further two months’ wait.
Then, after more than a month waiting for the next appointment, the doctor informed me that the settings they had tried were too low and wanted to send me back to the lab. I disagreed, but he gave me the prescription, and two months later, I received a CPAP machine with incorrect settings that didn’t help much.
Eventually, I purchased my own Philips Dreamstation Go because it automatically adjusts the pressure, and I’ve been sleeping well ever since.
- mdekkers 1 year agoAfter an initial round of bullshit with the local government insurance agency to get my CPAP including the multiple “two month wait for x”, then a 6 month wait to get the machine, and subsequently struggling to get it serviced, I bought my own for a few hundred EUR and been doing that for nearly 10 years now.
- ThePowerOfFuet 1 year agoAt least people who don't have your means have another option.
- mdekkers 1 year agoI don’t have much in the way of “Means”, I just enjoy breathing and set my priorities accordingly. Also, where I live the most expensive CPAP costs like 1800 EUR. Mine costs 900 EUR
- mdekkers 1 year ago
- ThePowerOfFuet 1 year ago
- dendrite9 1 year agoJust in case you missed the news about the recall and issues with Philips CPAP machines. You might want to check if there is anything that you can or need to do. The disintegrating foam seems like an unpleasant flaw in production.
https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/safety-communications/up...
- mikigraf 1 year agoThank you, I appreciate it. Luckily my machine is not under recall and was produced in March of 2023
- mikigraf 1 year ago
- waltwalther 1 year agoSounds like you are in the US.
- mikigraf 1 year agoHaha, I’m in Germany
- mikigraf 1 year ago
- mdekkers 1 year ago
- geekpondering 1 year agoI move around a lot and have run into all kinds of weirdness when it comes to CPAP stuff. Any time you establish a new doc, if your CPAP prescription is more than 1-2 years old you need to do another sleep study, so I think I've done 6 different sleep studies over the years.
The other thing to remember about CPAP is that it's not just the machine, you have to get replaceable supplies - masks, air tubes, etc every so often.
While not nearly as bad as linked blog entry, my worst situation was with Kaiser in the SF Bay Area. I had gotten a CPAP through them and then a few years later moved to a different part of the Bay. I set up a new doc also with Kaiser, but the records don't easily transfer and since it's a different Kaiser respiratory team, I had to (of course) do another sleep study AND go through a CPAP orientation on how to use a CPAP despite me already owning and using a CPAP and just needing a new mask, etc.
- eek2121 1 year agoI get my supplies from illegitimate sellers on amazon precisely because of this.
I also learned how to adjust my machine manually because it was taking way too long to schedule new sleep doctor appointments and then appointments with the DME provider…I shouldn’t have to wait 6 months to a year in order to to get quality sleep.
I will never understand why a prescription for my BiPAP or my glasses is required. It is all pointless bureaucracy.
- anjel 1 year agoMoats are gonna do what moats are designed to do.
- anjel 1 year ago
- eek2121 1 year ago
- thegrizzlyking 1 year agoAre there any studies estimating the cost of this kafakasque nightmare? End of the day users pay for this via higher premiums. I am sure doctor's offices also face something similar.
- lolc 1 year agoClearly it leads to lower premiums (or higher profits) because many claims are abandoned.
- kevincox 1 year agoNot to mention Aphyr spent lots of (expensive) time on the other side. I think Anthem should have to compensate him for all the time that he had to waste.
- hyperpape 1 year agoI don't know of anything like a comprehensive estimate, but there are people working on documenting and quantifying these costs: https://springboardpolicy.medium.com/getting-to-know-the-tim....
- onetoo 1 year agoNo, but, you see, the system is privatized, therefore it must be more efficient. /s
- eastbound 1 year agoThe upside of inefficient privatized process is that you can replace them.
- genocidicbunny 1 year agoWell the kicker here, is that the process is not inefficient. It's just efficient for someone other than your average person. If anything, for the people that care and can do something about it, the process is inefficient in the opposite direction -- it's not bleeding as much money from the consumer as it could be.
- ericjmorey 1 year agoLOL
If only.
- genocidicbunny 1 year ago
- eastbound 1 year ago
- lolc 1 year ago
- RecycledEle 1 year agoThis is too common. The author of the article asked for the wrong thing from the wrong people. He should have asked his sleep doctor (which he calls the sleep center) for a new CPAP. By asking for a repair from his insurance company, he caused himself lots of grief.
I doubt he has a list if his doctors that his insurance companies or doctors would agree with.
- mattmaroon 1 year agoBut we can’t have public health insurance because the lines will be too long.
- gotbeans 1 year agoCongrats on triggering my chronic anxiety.
I dread the day I require anything complicated that requires medical/insurance bureocracy in this country. I've had already ungodly share of issues with Aetna because they capitalized my surname.
- chromakode 1 year agoI had my first serious medical procedure a year and a half ago, which required a rare specialist. My insurance, Anthem Blue Cross, covered everything, and called and mailed me ahead of time confirming my hospital stay at UCSF was approved and in network. So, YMMV.
- chromakode 1 year ago
- dekhn 1 year agoI have one rule when it comes to these things. Play dumb. Don't try to be smart. It's remarkable how the system detects people trying to be smart and considers it abuse and deals with it using high latency.
I found any number of people I worked with were much more productive (car repair, internet service, insurance) if I avoided any speculation about what the problem was, or what the solution could be. Like other folks in this thread, I identify as mildly autistic, and dealing with normies in the service industry took a lot of retraining my mental model of how things work.
- Havoc 1 year agoMaking sick people jump through a million hoops takes a special kind of evil.
- spondylosaurus 1 year agoHa, I know Carelon! It's their pharmacy division for specialty (read: expensive) medication. Not a clue as to why they'd be involved in a CPAP claim, but this story does ring far too close to home.
I once spent months fighting United Healthcare to stop hounding me for a $2k bill that I categorically did not owe. Countless phone reps were unable to remove it from my account; I only solved the problem by making a big enough stink on Twitter for someone from corporate to get involved. Good times!
- logbiscuitswave 1 year agoCarelon also does preauthorizations for various expensive procedures and such. I’ve had the displeasure of having to try to coordinate between my insurance provider and PCP’s insurance coordinator for authorizing some expensive blood tests. Insurance wanted the PCP to use Carelon, Carelon automatically denied it, the appeals process was designed to be as frustrating and opaque as possible.
(Unlike the OP, I didn’t have the patience to spend two years navigating the kafkaesque nightmare they did. I finally gave up after a couple months of being stonewalled by all the parties who would refuse to talk to one another and me trying to be the middle man. I never did get the blood work done. So much for preventative medicine.)
- logbiscuitswave 1 year ago
- bytearray 1 year agoInsurance companies are just legal scams. They take your premiums then come up with whatever excuses possible to avoid or delay paying out on legitimate claims.
- r2vcap 1 year agoIt is interesting to see how CPAP is used and covered by insurance in different countries. In my country, South Korea, CPAP is available for rent if you have certain medical conditions, and the rental price is fixed. I pay 15 USD (20K KRW), and the Korea NHS pays 60 USD (80K KRW) per month. I've been using Löwenstein's CPAP, and it works great without any problems.
- steve-atx-7600 1 year agoI'm fortunate enough to afford to buy my machines out of pocket. Just trying to obtain a machine the insurance way was taking weeks (before covid even) and I got pissed off and figured out with my Perscription I could buy one on cpap.com with Amazon like service. However, obtaining the equipment was just the first hurdle for me. Thereafter, I approached finding the right settings as a search problem and eventually got some relief. Since I was not a severe case - at least by the "average of bad events" metric from the machine - I wasn't able to get much attention after trying several providers. I eventually bought a bipap machine after reading forums and hoping that more knobs to turn on the machine could yield better results. This helped a lot and again I'm lucky to be able to afford a new one without insurance. There's a lot of opportunity for improvement in this medical tech space.
- thih9 1 year agoCPAP = Continuous Positive Airway Pressure ventillation - a mask, a hose and a flow generator. Treatment for obstructive sleep apnea.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_positive_airway_p...
- joatmon-snoo 1 year agoAnother avenue of escalation is also via your state congressional rep / federal congressional rep. Their offices should always have a constituent services function whose very purpose is to help their constituents navigate these bureaucratic mazes.
(Disclaimer: I’ve never had to exercise this personally.)
- bhoops 1 year agoWhy dont you just ask someone coming from India to get you one ? They are available over the counter in India and there are a lot of Indian people hopping on a flight to the US all the time. I am sure there is someone in your office you can request, or someone in your locality.
- candiddevmike 1 year agoYou really need a professional to configure the CPAP, otherwise it can mess up your lungs (too much airflow) or make your sleep apnea worse (not enough airflow).
That's why these are considered a prescription--the prescription is the settings on the machine.
- jzig 1 year agoNot at all. You can figure out how to configure one yourself with a few hours reading on /r/CPAP or watching YouTube. Source: myself after trying to acquire one and get it configured for months through a similar bureaucratic nightmare as the article.
- exhilaration 1 year agoI'd love to try a CPAP, any suggestions other than asking an Indian coworker to bring one back? Is there a gray market? Maybe Mexican mail order pharmacies?
I'm the US with health insurance but I bet it'll be more expensive to go the legit way.
- exhilaration 1 year ago
- bhoops 1 year agoYes thats somewhat true, but I find that such professionals are very hard to find. Not just in India, but all over the world. OTOH there are sites like apneaboard.com and reddit/r/SleepApnea where you can learn to configure for yourself.
- pareidolia 1 year agoThis comment should be flagged for medical misinformation.
- jzig 1 year ago
- candiddevmike 1 year ago
- Glyptodon 1 year agoThe longer I've had a CPAP the more I've thought they should be more over the counter because literally any problem is unresolvable without it taking too long. Though this case is extra insane.
- globallyunique 1 year agoFor those who are looking for a cpap now in the US (maybe for other countries - haven’t tried) - https://cpapx.com/collections/resmed/products/airsense-10-au...
You can order one for 450 before taxes there.
You will have to email your prescription though before they process the order.
Ordering a backup one (or more) is very useful to leave in your travel suitcase etc
- ivraatiems 1 year agoGod, reading this is awful. I have a CPAP and I would not be willing to go one night without it. I'd buy the parts/machine out of pocket and make insurance pay for it later. The impact on my health and quality of life is way too high.
But I'm privileged to be able to do that. I can shell out $1,000 for a medical device in an emergency, and my doctors are local and return my calls. Not everyone is so lucky.
- gorbachev 1 year agoI had a similar story once on an medical insurance coverage situation, which only resolved itself when I dug up the contact information of an employee at the insurance company from Google/LinkedIn and directly contacted the person.
Going through the official "process" was just handing me from one department to another until it went back to the original department, and the cycle started again.
- pgraf 1 year agoMight have been useful to establish a paper trail instead of calling them. Have a look at the great article by patio11 for ideas how to establish one: https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-r...
- xyst 1 year agoHave had similar experiences with UHC for some very expensive injectables. Fortunately, my doc’s back office handled the appeals process to get it approved. Keep in mind I am paying a higher premium for a PPO plan vs an HMO plan offered by employer.
Doc’s back office submitted 3-4 “appeals” to get it covered. Each review was reviewed by UHC personnel. Probably someone like this guy [1]
I fucking hate private insurance. It’s a useless middleman that is driving the costs of healthcare up. We can have the most advanced healthcare available but it’s largely inaccessible because of health insurance industry. They will make it as difficult as possible so you either give up or end up paying out of pocket.
- anonu 1 year agoI ended up just buying a CPAP. Ultimately, its not easy to sleep with one. I use a MAD now and my experience has been substantially better in terms of persistence in using it and less snoring. However, it has caused my teeth to move which is a tradeoff I can deal with.
- 1 year ago
- dramm 1 year agoAnthem Insurance staff just following their Claims Manual, Section U.
- HumblyTossed 1 year agoHealth care needs an enema.
I think one thing I would have done different when i switched primary I would have gotten a new Rx.
Not sure how much trouble that would have saved in the end but that is just what I tend to do.
- wsintra2022 1 year agoI read how to replace your Crap and was interested briefly.. I got a lot of crap laying around that needs replacing
- blincoln 1 year agoHaving one's tonsils and adenoids removed and getting palette-hardening RF treatment seems like it would be a lot easier and more permanent than this rigamarole. Worked for me, and I suspect it would for a lot of other folks too.
- elric 1 year agoI don't think advocating for invasive surgery is a good way of dealing with awful insurance bureaucracy. With OP's luck, he might need 666 days to get his hospital fees sorted by insurance.
Snark aside, AFAIK palate hardening is not terribly permanent, it works by creating scar tissue, which can become more floppy than the original tissue as you age. It's only useful if a floppy palate is causing obstructions/snoring. Removing tonsils and adenoids will may free up some space in the airway, but it's not going to make any difference if they're not the cause of the obstruction, and this may weaken your immune system.
While I'm sure you were trying to be helpful, I do wish people would stop treating sleep apnea like it's something that's easy to fix. Just have these body parts removed. Just lose weight. Just get on CPAP. Just fix your allergies. Just have your jaw broken and moved forward. Just have an electrode implanted. Etc.
- elric 1 year ago
- genocidicbunny 1 year agoMedical, and especially medical related insurance stuff, is one of the few things that drives me up a wall enough to add to my 'burn this chickenshit outfit down' list.
This is a great example of why.
- LegitShady 1 year ago'don't buy anthem products, period, for any reason"
- spondylosaurus 1 year agoWhat's crazy is that Anthem is genuinely one of the least-bad insurance giants in America right now. The bar is incredibly fucking low.
- vertis 1 year agoI'll take the issues with Medicare (Australia) and the NHS (UK), both of which I have dealings with, over US healthcare problems any day of the week.
Every healthcare system has issues, but universal healthcare beats the pants off the US system any day of the week.
- Ekaros 1 year agoI take resource constrained over purposefully obtuse system. I can understand that people and medicine is expensive and inefficient(compared to farming and factories or tech). But at least these public systems seem to attempt to do stuff. And not be piled with bureaucracy to avoid paying out or increasing the prices.
- Ekaros 1 year ago
- vertis 1 year ago
- gorbachev 1 year agoThese days I am screening potential employers with who they use for their medical insurance plan. There's absolutely no way I'm ever going with United Healthcare Group ever again.
- spondylosaurus 1 year agoLOL, I had a phone screener three days ago and did the exact same thing. Asked which health plan they offered with the explicit purpose of filtering out UHC. They're the lowest of the low and even doctors hate them. (At least one of mine audibly groaned when I mentioned being on a UHC plan and then he said "Guess there's no point in trying <drug>."
- astura 1 year agoProblem is, insurance contracts are only for a few years then employers shop around and it's usually cheaper to switch than to renew.
- spondylosaurus 1 year ago
- spondylosaurus 1 year ago
- 867-5309 1 year agoContinuous Positive Airway Pressure
- ergonaught 1 year agoHave been trying to replace my (recalled) machine for about a year, now, myself.
Asinine.
- tshirttime 1 year agoForget the CPAP. If you're having trouble sleeping, just read this longwindedness.
- EasyMark 1 year agoGot rid of mine by going on keto/16-8 fasting by dropping 80lbs over about 9 months.
- CaliforniaKarl 1 year agoReading this depressed me: I imagined the title being “How to get your GMail/XBox/PlayStation account back in only 666 days.”
I worry that, some day, tech companies will be under a regulating agency like insurance is today. If that happens, we’ll probably deserve it.
- tomohawk 1 year agoAlternatively, try a low histamine diet. Many people who have been told they need surgery to correct "deviated septum" or need cpap have found their problems go away.
Edit: to downvoters - why the closed mind?
- seattle_spring 1 year ago> Edit: to downvoters - why the closed mind?
Unsolicited medical advice is not appropriate. It suggests that the people suffering from the condition in question have put literally zero effort into solving their problem, when in reality they likely have already heard about and tried every "trick" or "alternative treatment" you're going to suggest.
Other common scenarios:
* Telling a chronic pain sufferer to "just try cannabis, it works better than pharmaceutical pain killers!"
* Suggesting [common behavioral quirk] is a very obvious sign of ADHD, and encouraging them to take Adderall.
* A whole host of "x supplement fixes y chronic condition" suggestions.
- tomohawk 1 year agoLet's not conflate "medical advice" with the suggestion on HN that you might want to look into a dietary change. That seems like a form of catastrophization.
If you can fix a problem by changing your diet, is it really a medical problem? Just because it relates to your health or body doesn't mean it's medical.
I know people who have made this diet change and it has changed their lives. They don't snore anymore. They don't need cpap.
If you're curious, look into it. If you're not, you're not.
- eesmith 1 year ago> If you can fix a problem by changing your diet, is it really a medical problem?
Yes, without doubt.
Scurvy is a medical problem (very often) fixed by changing your diet to include vitamin C.
Beriberi is a medical problem (very often) fixed by changing your diet to include more thiamine.
Quite a few people have allergic reactions to the content of their food, like celiac disease due to an allergic reaction to gluten, which is resolved by switching to a diet without that component.
Some young children got lead poisoning because they would eat paint chips which tasted sweet due to the lead content. Their medical problem is helped by switching to a non-lead paint diet, often by removing the old paint from where they live and repainting, or by moving somewhere without lead paint.
> I know people who have made this diet change and it has changed their lives. They don't snore anymore. They don't need cpap.
Snoring does not mean someone needs a CPAP machine. How were they diagnosed? How severe was it?
Was the food actually low in histamines? How low was it? Did it affect histamine levels in the blood? As I pointed out elsewhere here, the histamine variability in foods is quite high, and hard even for nutrition professionals to get right.
Is there a response curve between the amount of histamine and the amount of obstructive sleep apnea?
How do you know the cause was due to low histamine vs some other dietary change? For example, it seems excluding citrus fruits is part of a low histamine diet even though they do not contain histamine because they are thought to "trigger the release of endogenous histamine" (quoting that paper). But perhaps there is something else in the citrus - the acid content, for example - which causes the problem.
How does an low histamine diet compare to taking anti-histamines? Why should we expect the former to work if the latter does not? What is the proposed method of action?
We have only to look at the history of scurvy and vitamin C treatment to learn how important it is to understand the details of why a treatment works!
How long does it take for the change in diet to affect people? 1 day? 1 month? 1 year?
Does it work for everyone with obstructive sleep apena or only a sub-population?
> If you're curious, look into it. If you're not, you're not.
I was curious. I looked into it. There appears to be no substance behind the idea.
- eesmith 1 year ago
- FireBeyond 1 year agoPrecisely. My deviated septum had a 90% occlusion to the right nostril.
No diet is fixing that cartilage.
- tomohawk 1 year ago
- eesmith 1 year agoI was not able to find any paper on Google Scholar about a study on the effect of a low-histamine diet on obstructive sleep apnea. How many is "many" and where is this documented?
The few matches for low-histamine diet and apnea come from what I would consider fringe and untrustworth research, often suggesting a low-histamine diet helps a large number of medical issues, but not pointing to study giving numbers, describing the severity of the apnea, and other things I would expect.
I was able to find papers which studied the effect of anti-histamine drugs on obstructive sleep apnea, like https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.2500/ajra.2013.27.39... for when people also have allergic rhinitis. "adding [anti-histimines] to this treatment did not show improved effects compared with placebo treatment". I presume people taking anti-histamines would have a lower amount of histamines in their body, so if there were a correlation it would have been seen. (Alternatively, it says that a low-histamine diet is not effective for CPAP when suffering from allergic rhinitis.)
It is apparently quite hard to identify what "low-histamine diet" means. In "Low-histamine diets: is the exclusion of foods justified by their histamine content?" at https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/13/5/1395 , which specifically concerns "the symptomatology of histamine intolerance", notes the "great heterogenicity in the type of foods that are advised against for histamine intolerant individuals. Excluded foods were, in most cases, different depending on the considered diet. Only fermented foods were unanimously excluded."
> The design of a low-histamine diet is challenging due to different handicaps. One of these is the lack of consensus on the histamine level below which a food is said to be considered low in histamine. Thus, variable histamine levels in food ranging between 5–50 mg/kg have been pointed out as potential thresholds, while other authors are much more demanding and consider foods with low histamine concentrations to be those that contain amounts below 1 mg/kg [ 12 ,26 –28 ]. Moreover, there is no specific regulation for the food industry to declare the occurrence or absence of histamine in food labelling, which could help histamine intolerant individuals to make suitable and informed choices.
> Overall, providing dietary recommendations and guidelines in the frame of a low-histamine diet is difficult for healthcare professionals.
If it's difficult for healthcare professionals to even determine what is low-histamine - and that's for people who are specifically histamine intolerance - and no studies to back up your suggestion ... why should anyone think your proposal has merit?
There is a long history of using the "why the closed mind?" argument to sell snake oil treatments, so I would not advise using argument and instead point to supporting evidence.
- seattle_spring 1 year ago