When every ketchup but one went extinct (2022)

84 points by AaronM 1 year ago | 140 comments
  • schmichael 1 year ago
    > A few years later, after a woman in Pennsylvania sent Heinz a dozen bottles of her homemade, tastier, better-looking, benzoate-free ketchup, they adopted her recipe, which was also sweet, vinegary, and thick.

    This is a throwaway sentence mid article, but it makes it sound like the recipe that allowed Heinz to dominate was from an unpaid woman! Heinz had already figured out how to make ketchup shelf stable without preservatives, but I'm intrigued to know if he would have "won" without her recipe!

    • Scoundreller 1 year ago
      Secret ingredient here must be sugar/corn-syrup. Makes a good thickener. Don’t need preservatives when your sugar concentration is high enough.

      And who doesn’t love sweet?

      (Acidity from vinegar helps too)

    • nottorp 1 year ago
      > Heinz’s new tomato ketchup cost two to three times more than its competitors. But the price increase also paid for the largest advertising campaign the industry had ever seen.

      Long tradition of competing on anything but merits :)

      • daedrdev 1 year ago
        To be clear the full sentence said:

        > Thanks in part to high-quality ingredients, Heinz’s new tomato ketchup cost two to three times more than its competitors. But the price increase also paid for the largest advertising campaign the industry had ever seen

        So it was higher quality and had the biggest advertising campaign.

        • strawhatguy 1 year ago
          And to encourage the government to rule your competitors' products are 'unsafe', maybe even forbid selling altogether...
        • SeanLuke 1 year ago
          What confuses me is that, though as I understand it Ketchup was a general term to decscribe a variety of sauces, in Cantonese it sounds exactly like Tomato ("Ke") Paste ("tchup"). Given its origins in southeast Asia, I had assumed that could not possibly be a coincidence.
          • pxeger1 1 year ago
            Wiktionary[1] says it’s “probably ultimately from Hokkien Chinese 膎汁 (kê-chiap, “fish sauce”)”. So not a million miles off?

            [1]: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ketchup

            • SeanLuke 1 year ago
              chiap sure? Ke no. In Cantonese, fish is yu. But yeah.

              Also: I had thought it was originally Malay.

              • arp242 1 year ago
                Malay "ketjap" or "kecap" (different types of soy sauces) comes from Chinese "kê-chiap". It may be directly inspired by Malay languages without knowledge of Chinese and still be "ultimately from Hokkien Chinese".
                • samatman 1 year ago
                  Hokkien/Min and Cantonese are not mutually intelligible languages.
                  • resolutebat 1 year ago
                    膎 preserved fish, not 鱼 plain old fish.
                  • me_me_me 1 year ago
                    Tomatoes are relatively late addition to european cuisine (1500ish), there would be influences from a silk for centuries before. It sounds quite probable.
                    • SeanLuke 1 year ago
                      This comment sounds like you might mistakenly think tomatoes are Chinese.
                      • huytersd 1 year ago
                        Not sure exactly what you’re saying but the Europeans brought tomatoes to India and East Asia.
                        • supertofu 1 year ago
                          A reminder that tomatoes are native to South America, and did not exist anywhere else until colonization of the Americas.
                      • aitchnyu 1 year ago
                        I can imagine some exec fine tuning the transliteration. Coca cola was first transliterated "bite the wax tadpole" or "female horse stuffed with wax". Coke then researched 40,000 Chinese characters and found a close phonetic equivalent, "ko-kou-ko-le," which can be loosely translated as "happiness in the mouth."

                        Leaving this here since the site hijacked ctrl+c to add its url: https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/business-jokes/coca-col...

                        • yen223 1 year ago
                          It's not branding, 茄汁 "kit chup" is literally how you'd say "sauce made from tomatoes" in Cantonese.
                      • danielvaughn 1 year ago
                        When I lived in NYC, I would frequent this coffee shop down near Little Italy. They had a grape ketchup for sale. I never bought one but always wanted to try it. I'd probably hate it because my brain is so hard-wired to think of ketchup as a tomato-based sauce, but I was still curious about it.
                        • wmil 1 year ago
                          Banana ketchup (dyed red) became popular in the Phillipines during and after WWII. There were tomato shortages.

                          Huy Fong Foods Sriracha is basically just red jalapeno ketchup.

                          If you can switch your brain to thinking of it as grape dipping sauce you'd probably like it.

                        • keiferski 1 year ago
                          A fun fact: in Pittsburgh (where Heinz is from), many of the original industrial buildings have been remodeled into luxury lofts. I have only been outside the complex, so I can't confirm if there are any lingering tomato smells.

                          https://www.heinzlofts.com

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._J._Heinz_Company_complex

                          • mschuster91 1 year ago
                            > Many companies had used benzoates to hide poor sanitation and low-quality tomatoes. Ketchup was often made from leftover tomato trimmings that were stored poorly and then bottled with a heavy dose of benzoate, which also covered up factories’ shoddy sanitization practices that would otherwise breed mold and bacteria.

                            This sounds suspiciously similar to the US practice of washing poultry meat with chlorine and eggs with water (which massively reduces its shelf life).

                            • deaddodo 1 year ago
                              > This sounds suspiciously similar to the US practice of washing poultry meat with chlorine

                              You mean the exact same thing Europeans do with leafy greens?

                              But one is a target of economic protectionism and the other isn't, so it must be scary in that specific case.

                              > eggs with water (which massively reduces its shelf life).

                              Ok, and?

                            • dang 1 year ago
                              Discussed at the time (of the article):

                              When Every Ketchup but One Went Extinct - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32774584 - Sept 2022 (120 comments)

                              When Every Ketchup but One Went Extinct - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32557361 - Aug 2022 (1 comment)

                              • postepowanieadm 1 year ago
                                Mushroom ketchup is quite nice, easy way of disposing stale mushrooms. I must try using wild mushrooms one day.
                                • nemo44x 1 year ago
                                  Malcolm Gladwell wrote a thing on ketchup years ago called “The Ketchup Conundrum”. [1]

                                  It’s worth a read as it goes deep into the history of ketchup but more so it investigates food tasting, super tasters, etc. It turns out that Heinz Ketchup is essentially a perfect food in terms of taste. People don’t get tired of it and other ketchups come and go because they are all ultimately flawed. Some grab people initially but they tire of it because it isn’t balanced. Heinz is as are a few other products the article talks about.

                                  [1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/09/06/the-ketchup-co...

                                  • giraffe_lady 1 year ago
                                    I wouldn't say it's perfect or the only balanced ketchup, but it fits very well into its role and is hard to consistently improve on in ways that are strictly better for the final product and competitive with its cost.

                                    It's a notorious "newb trap" for chefs. You see a place making their own ketchup, that stuff might be good but you know they don't have a seasoned professional's view of where value is made. It takes hours of labor to make ketchup for something that in the end doesn't make your burger taste better than heinz does.

                                    • nemo44x 1 year ago
                                      People continue to make ketchups that people say they prefer after a single bite and it’s usually because they have a certain flavor that stands out. But they don’t see return customers.

                                      Similar to soda. Coke has just the right combination of things that no one else is close. Pepsi used to do a blind taste test and people preferred Pepsi after a single taste. But it’s 1-dimensional and people quickly tire of it. Coke eventually comes out on top.

                                      “Perfect” is subjective but the article describes a ratings system that super tasters use. Heinz ketchup comes out perfect. And the lack of competition proves it.

                                      • giraffe_lady 1 year ago
                                        Eh don't be so credulous about shit malcolm gladwell says lol. Heinz's dominance probably comes down to the usual matrix of suitability across a large set of uses, consistency, cost, marketing, familiarity. I'm agreeing with you that it's very well balanced and nearly impossible to broadly beat at its price point. My former-professional opinion is that they hit a local maximum around price and flexibility, not that they somehow have the one perfect food product on the planet though.
                                        • samatman 1 year ago
                                          I'm fairly sure that the ingredient that makes Coke distinctive is neroli. It's the only known ingredient in Coke which is moderately expensive, and the brand buys a fair amount of total world production, presumably at a good price. The also-rans don't use it, once you know what to look for this is quite clear.
                                      • Applejinx 1 year ago
                                        First thing I thought of. The takeaway for me is that (a) Malcolm Gladwell generalizes and story-izes like mad to make a compelling take, but (b) it turns out that it's a very powerful thing to balance flavors until the synthesis has a stronger personality than any of its component parts.

                                        Works in other art forms, too, and works in regular cooking. If you like a sensation, be careful to not dive in and add LOTS of it or the thing you like will end up distractingly strong, and the gestalt will suffer.

                                      • cafard 1 year ago
                                        If you have an open weekend in the late summer, you can make your own ketchup. We did this a couple of summers just over twenty years ago. Then we bought an old house, and there were no open weekends.
                                      • contrarian1234 1 year ago
                                        Is the current formulation still free of preservatives?

                                        It's great the bottles don't spoil after being packaged, but I assume once opened all the careful boiling done at the beginning becomes irrelevant. And it's always been unclear to me how long you can keep a bottle around from that point onward! Especially say at a diner, where the bottle is non-refrigerated and sitting for days/months/years (periodically topped up)

                                        • greggsy 1 year ago
                                          They removed sodium benzoate in the early 20th century. They put this tweet [1] out a couple of years ago alongside some other social media campaigns.

                                          The consensus was at the time was that it’s shelf stable due to the acidity, but it still needs to be refrigerated after opening. Restaurants go through sauce quicker, so they can leave it on the table.

                                          [1] https://x.com/heinzuk/status/1673651138774589444

                                          • contrarian1234 1 year ago
                                            you don't think diners just top up the bottles at the end of the day when they're closing? I'm skeptical they run the bottles through the dish washer
                                            • dannyphantom 1 year ago
                                              So I have a rather unfortunate tale about ketchup being refilled at diners from my time working as a server in undergrad that affirms your concerns.

                                              In the back of the kitchen, we had a ketchup refill area which used a large bag-in-box system; here is what that looks like: https://i.imgur.com/jP8zrrI.png

                                              As you can imagine, the bag lasted quite a while as we would just top up the classic red ketchup bottle with a screw lid. But...because our restaurant (Hamburger Mary's) was low/no-volume from Monday to Thursday, those bottles just...uh...sat on the tables for days on end, at most they'd sit out for a week.

                                              On the tables.

                                              At room temperature.

                                              With constant exposure to air.

                                              You can probably see where this is going:

                                              The ketchup would gradually ferment due to the warm room temperature and continuous exposure to air. This fermentation process gave it a unique ‘tangy’ flavor that some customers mistook for a special “beer ketchup”. Given that I worked in Milwaukee, WI (a city known for its breweries and beer culture) their assumption wasn’t entirely baseless

                                              But in reality, they were complimenting the taste of…well…rancid ketchup.

                                              I left shortly after that experience to a real restaurant (Rock Bottom; if you like cajun pasta, here is their recipe for it: https://imgur.com/a/fjZnDAz) but yeah -- definitely be careful where you go to eat. Higher than normal employee turnover is absolutely a warning sign that the restaurant is poorly run and probably not the best place to eat.

                                              • e40 1 year ago
                                                They definitely top off the bottles. I’ve seen them do it.
                                            • CommieBobDole 1 year ago
                                              I don't know how long it takes to go bad, but I do know that I use ketchup very rarely, mostly to make other sauces, and I keep a bottle in the fridge and check it before every time I use it. I've tasted ketchup that's been in the fridge for 2-3 years past the expiration date that has no obvious defects and looks and tastes just like fresh ketchup. I think the vinegar and the cold provide a lot of preservation.
                                              • palmfacehn 1 year ago
                                                Salt and vinegar are preservatives, but there are no benzoates in Heinz. In other countries I have encountered preservatives, added colors and even artificial thickeners in some brands.
                                                • greggsy 1 year ago
                                                  The thickeners are (along with the obvious reason of thickness) to avoid ‘serum’, which is the undesirable blurt of pale, watery liquid that comes out of you don’t shake it enough.
                                                  • treadmill 1 year ago
                                                    Or you could, you know, shake the bottle instead of adding crap to the ketchup.
                                                • thsksbd 1 year ago
                                                  The activity of water (a function of the chemical potential) in ketchup is very low. If the water activity of a food is low enough it'll keep without refrigeration.

                                                  I don't know if ketchup's low enough to stay indefinitely, but it'll keep long enough.

                                                  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_activity

                                                  • 1 year ago
                                                    • eru 1 year ago
                                                      Ketchup has a lot of vinegar, ie it's pretty sour. That alone helps with preservation.
                                                    • xav0989 1 year ago
                                                      I wonder what additives are currently in good that we’ll discover to be harmful in the future.

                                                      Also interesting that Heinz’s ketchup (in be the US) is now full of high fructose corn syrup and artificial food dyes, when (from the article) it started as the better/safer/more natural option.

                                                      • infecto 1 year ago
                                                        > Also interesting that Heinz’s ketchup (in be the US) is now full of high fructose corn syrup and artificial food dyes, when (from the article) it started as the better/safer/more natural option

                                                        Amazing the leaps you took to make this statement. 1) There are no food dyes that I am aware of. 2) I don't think the science is conclusive that HFCS is any worse than sugar. 3) They make many varieties, some which use cane sugar instead of HFCS. 4) What does this have anything to to with the US?

                                                        • pfdietz 1 year ago
                                                          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3649104/ (2013)

                                                          > Both controversy and confusion exist concerning fructose, sucrose, and high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) with respect to their metabolism and health effects. These concerns have often been fueled by speculation based on limited data or animal studies. In retrospect, recent controversies arose when a scientific commentary was published suggesting a possible unique link between HFCS consumption and obesity. Since then, a broad scientific consensus has emerged that there are no metabolic or endocrine response differences between HFCS and sucrose related to obesity or any other adverse health outcome. This equivalence is not surprising given that both of these sugars contain approximately equal amounts of fructose and glucose, contain the same number of calories, possess the same level of sweetness, and are absorbed identically through the gastrointestinal tract. [...]

                                                          • infecto 1 year ago
                                                            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9551185/ (2022)

                                                            > In conclusion, analysis of data from the literature suggests that HFCS consumption was associated with a higher level of CRP compared to sucrose, whilst no significant changes between the two sweeteners were evident in other anthropometric and metabolic parameters

                                                            We could go back and forth all day long posting studies from nih.gov, lets not be silly. I don't think what you have provided disproves my statement. The science is inconclusive, we don't know that HFCS is materially worse than sugar. I think we can say sugar in any form is not great in large quantities but I don't think we know for certain how worse, if any, HFCS is compared to natural sugar.

                                                          • biomcgary 1 year ago
                                                            Profits drive use of HFCS because fructose is sweeter than glucose. A pinch of enzyme converts glucose to fructose and saves a bunch of money.

                                                            Fructose interferes with glucose use and regulation. The real comparison to be made is between normal corn syrup (only glucose) and HFCS (about half fructose), not sugar (about half fructose).

                                                            When using crude tools to evaluate metabolism like the glycemic index, which only considers blood glucose, it appears that fructose is better. The modern Western diet leads to obesity, diabetes, and fatty liver disease (NAFLD) because fructose metabolism collides with lipid metabolism in the liver.

                                                            • rendang 1 year ago
                                                              HFCS has about the same amount of fructose as its usual substitute, sucrose. I don't see very many products around me sweetened with pure glucose
                                                              • infecto 1 year ago
                                                                This still does not really convince me that it is materially different at scale. I think what I said still holds true.
                                                              • lmm 1 year ago
                                                                > I don't think the science is conclusive that HFCS is any worse than sugar.

                                                                The science is rarely conclusive about anything. There is enough evidence to suggest risks from high HFCS consumption to warrant caution.

                                                                > 3) They make many varieties, some which use cane sugar instead of HFCS. 4) What does this have anything to to with the US?

                                                                The US is associated with high HFCS consumption. I would suspect that these points are related and those non-HFCS varieties are more popular outside the US.

                                                                • infecto 1 year ago
                                                                  You did not prove it’s materially more harmful. Yes science is rarely conclusive but we have enough studies on both sides and it’s unclear how harmful it is in low quantities. I think we all can generally agree that higher consumption quantities of any type of sweetener is generally not healthy.

                                                                  The point about the US is the parent pointed it out as a jab when in reality they were wrong on multiple accounts.

                                                              • frogulis 1 year ago
                                                                Is that so? As an Aussie, Heinz is not a new brand for me, but I definitely associate them with beans before ketchup (tomato sauce (dead horse in rhyming slang)). Canned baked beans are not thought of as a natural nor healthy option - is that the perception of Heinz as a company in NA, or is it just the ketchup product that's thought of as better/safer/more natural?
                                                                • keiferski 1 year ago
                                                                  Your comment reminded me of the Mad Men story arc (set in the 60s) which is about Heinz being associated with beans, not ketchup.

                                                                  In the US, today I'd say Heinz is almost overwhelmingly associated with ketchup, so it's interesting that their ad efforts didn't make it to Oz.

                                                                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDiCW6wlFBc

                                                                  • arethuza 1 year ago
                                                                    "Beanz Meanz Heinz" is etched into my memory from my youth in the UK.

                                                                    Certainly when I think of Heinz I think of beans not ketchup.

                                                                    • foobar1962 1 year ago
                                                                      The Australia market was dominated by Fountain Tomato Sauce, and possibly Master Foods. Heinz Ketchup wasn't easy to find, and it may have been named Tomato Sauce rather than Ketchup here.
                                                                      • frogulis 1 year ago
                                                                        These days they may have a better association with "ketchup". My sister affirms that (Heinz) ketchup and tomato sauce are distinct products, but I'm not so sure.
                                                                        • drivingmenuts 1 year ago
                                                                          I've bought Heinz Beans at a grocery store in Austin.

                                                                          In the import section.

                                                                          And they weren't bad, but not great either.

                                                                        • nkrisc 1 year ago
                                                                          As an American, I had to do a terrible impression of an Aussie accent to hear how “sauce” and “horse” could possibly rhyme.

                                                                          As for Heinz, my impression has always been that it’s the standard, mass-produced supermarket fare that is probably not healthy/natural. Nothing they make that much of that lasts for so long can possibly be so.

                                                                          • dragontamer 1 year ago
                                                                            The science of long lasting food is well known.

                                                                            Boiling kills most bacteria. Acid kills the leftover Botulism spores (one of the few diseases that survive boiling). Seal while hot and the food can stay good for a year or longer.

                                                                            Tomatoes already are near the acid point that kills botulism. Just gotta lower pH a little more with either lemons or vinegar. And bam, success.

                                                                            A professional would need to measure the pH to be sure as acidity levels differ. But we've been canning tomatoes for nearly two centuries now, the science is well tested and well figured out.

                                                                            > Nothing they make that much of that lasts for so long can possibly be so.

                                                                            Refrigeration was invented long after preserved foods. You couldn't match a Roman Legion 500 miles without preservatives.

                                                                            Salt, olive oil and wheat. It must have sucked to be a Roman Legion but less so than other troops.

                                                                            It's why 1lb of salt was worth 1lb of gold back then. The secrets of long lasting food (fermentation, salt, and other methods) is millennia old. Canning is relatively new (boiling+sealing simultaneously), a 1800s era discovery. But canning's health effects are well studied.

                                                                            • eru 1 year ago
                                                                              > As an American, I had to do a terrible impression of an Aussie accent to hear how “sauce” and “horse” could possibly rhyme.

                                                                              I guess it help to start with a non-rhotic accent.

                                                                              Going off on a tangent: I was very confused when one Calvin and Hobbes comic rhyme 'macabre' with 'job'; I figured out later that it's because American accents are weird.

                                                                              • frogulis 1 year ago
                                                                                They rhyme perfectly in an Australian accent :D

                                                                                Not rhotic, plus the vowel in "sauce" tends towards "or" rather than "ah". Hope that's a comprehensible explanation of our esoteric pronunciation :)

                                                                                • pests 1 year ago
                                                                                  I feel like its similar to "source" being turned into "sauce".
                                                                                • dreamcompiler 1 year ago
                                                                                  In the US, Heinz is definitely more associated with ketchup. When Americans think of canned baked beans (which is rarely), Van Camp's is arguably more well-known.

                                                                                  When I think of Heinz these days I think of the politician John Kerry, because he's married to the heir to the Heinz family fortune. But that's mostly because my brain is weird.

                                                                                • rufus_foreman 1 year ago
                                                                                  Heinz: Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Tomatoes, Distilled Vinegar, High Fructose Corn Syrup, Corn Syrup, Salt, Spice, Onion Powder, Natural Flavoring

                                                                                  Heinz Simply: Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Tomatoes, Distilled Vinegar, Cane Sugar, Salt, Onion Powder, Spice, Natural Flavoring

                                                                                  Heinz No Sugar Added: Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Tomatoes, Distilled White Vinegar, Salt, Natural Flavoring, Stevia Leaf Extract (Not Normally Found in Ketchup), Onion Powder

                                                                                  Heinz No Salt Added: Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Tomatoes, Distilled White Vinegar, Sugar, Potassium Chloride (Not in Regular Ketchup), Natural Flavoring, Spice, Onion Powder

                                                                                  Heinz Organic: Organic Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Organic Tomatoes, Organic Distilled Vinegar, Organic Sugar, Salt, Organic Onion Powder, Organic Spice, Natural Flavoring

                                                                                  Heinz Jalapeno: Tomato Concentrate from Red Ripe Tomatoes, Distilled Vinegar, High Fructose Corn Syrup, Salt, Dried Jalapeno Peppers, Spice, Onion Powder, Natural Flavors, Bell Pepper Juice Concentrate

                                                                                  There are probably others, those are the ones listed at one store.

                                                                                  • CraigJPerry 1 year ago
                                                                                    Heinz do different kinds of Ketchup, the no added salt one tastes just like regular european heinz ketchup (i.e. not as cloyingly sweet). I remember the ingredients didn't have HFCS listed on the bottle and we put it down to that being the difference.
                                                                                    • xav0989 1 year ago
                                                                                      Heinz US also does a “simply” ketchup with sugar instead of HGCS and no artificial dyes, and when you compare ingredient lists, that same “specialty” ketchup is the one that’s sold as regular ketchup in Canada.
                                                                                      • KptMarchewa 1 year ago
                                                                                        Not adding salt makes it less sweet? Or is there some more differences?
                                                                                        • CraigJPerry 1 year ago
                                                                                          I don't recall exactly but the ingredients lists were pretty different. The no salt one had tomatoes and maybe 2 or 3 other ingredients, the regular one had a few more ingredients although as i recall nothing weird except HFCS was one item.
                                                                                      • Applejinx 1 year ago
                                                                                        'sucralose'. Which is a trade name, not a descriptive name.

                                                                                        There's no way that won't be found to be toxic. I recently had a health scare where I was inadvertently consuming a lot of it in a coffee creamer: the label color had changed and I thought nothing of it, but it represented a change in sweetener from monkfruit/stevia to 'sucralose'.

                                                                                        Came damn close to going to the hospital. Gut pain and sweats and pooping lighter and lighter shades as my organs shut down (at least from producing bile).

                                                                                        Figured out the change, dumped all the 'sucralose' and after a week or so returned to normal health, no other changes in diet or behavior at all.

                                                                                        I don't know why it's not banned already, but it must be hella profitable.

                                                                                        • derbOac 1 year ago
                                                                                          Interestingly, I was listening to a podcast once and they were interviewing a researcher with Heinz who said one of their R&D goals is developing tomato varieties that are sweet enough to be used in making ketchup without added sugar. I don't remember what podcast it was and don't know if Heinz is still doing that but at the time they sounded like it was a big focus for them, for financial as well as health reasons.

                                                                                          Gastropod has a good episode on ketchup; it might have been the one I'm thinking of but it might not. It covers many of the same things as this article but in more depth with certain things.

                                                                                          • rsynnott 1 year ago
                                                                                            So, the odd thing here is that, while, yes, most preservatives used in the early 20th century were extremely dodgy, sodium benzoate, while controlled, remains legal, and considered safe at reasonable levels. This was as much marketing as anything, in this particular case.
                                                                                            • code_duck 1 year ago
                                                                                              Food coloring would be news to me. I haven’t seen that in any ingredient lists… looking at Heinz’s website now, it does not list any dyes in the ingredients for their standard ketchup.
                                                                                              • michael1999 1 year ago
                                                                                                Gums.

                                                                                                Indigestible. Used in place of flour or corn starch as a thickener or emulsifier. They can be quite irritating to some people.

                                                                                              • fedeb95 1 year ago
                                                                                                it's not that hard to do your own ketchup, or some quicker variants of it.

                                                                                                One I do: - chop some onions - put some oil in a pot - cook the onions at not too high heat - after a few minutes, add soy sauce, vineagr, a good amount of sugar, pepper (optionally tomato sauce; exact quantities and spices depend on your unique taste) - keep cooking for at least 40 minutes with a lid on. now and then check if it's too dry add water

                                                                                                • robin_reala 1 year ago
                                                                                                  Your recipe seems to be missing tomatoes (assuming you weren’t going for an onion ketchup?).
                                                                                                  • frogulis 1 year ago
                                                                                                    On the topic of non-tomato ketchup, a video that has stuck with me over the years: https://youtu.be/29u_FejNuks
                                                                                                    • fedeb95 1 year ago
                                                                                                      it is. I willingly gave a variant to do in the absence of tomatoes. You can add them and get a more proper ketchup (I wrote optionally add tomato sauce, but it's true most people call ketchup only what has tomato in it. To me, the taste is quite similar even in the absence of tomatoes, what really gives the ketchup signature taste, again my opinion, is the balance of vinegar/sugar).
                                                                                                    • bluGill 1 year ago
                                                                                                      I see a lot of recipes that call for ketchup, but they also call for all the ingredients in ketchup as well. I often just substitute an extra can of tomatoes, some sugar and spices.
                                                                                                    • Ringz 1 year ago
                                                                                                      It sounds like there is only Heinz ketchup in all supermarkets in the USA. Is that so?

                                                                                                      In Europe (at least Italy, Germany, Austria) there are many different types of ketchup and manufacturers in supermarkets.

                                                                                                      • al_borland 1 year ago
                                                                                                        There are others, but they are generally seen as either budget options, or health food options.

                                                                                                        We are starting to see more companies enter the market with sugar free ketchups, for example.

                                                                                                        By me, Hunts is a common alternative to Heinz, but it seen as an option for people who buy on price, not taste.

                                                                                                        Recently, I have been trying some of the sugar free options, but always also have a bottle of Heinz on hand, because if anyone comes over to my house, they will be disappointed with anything else. If kids come over, they might not eat their meal if it’s anything else.

                                                                                                        • deaddodo 1 year ago
                                                                                                          Hunts and Del Monte are the other national brands. Then you have a ton of store and locality (state/region) specific options, as well as healthier/quality alternatives.

                                                                                                          On a side note, American supermarkets being accused of having less options is genuinely a first for me to hear. On average, especially for common goods like this, you're looking at a 2-4x brand diversity in an American supermarket. That doesn't necessarily mean it's better quality, but you're definitely going to see more options just due to the sheer relative size of American supermarkets.

                                                                                                          • Ringz 1 year ago
                                                                                                            I'd like to clarify that I never "accused" American supermarkets of having less variety. In fact, my comment was aimed at expressing surprise at hearing such an accusation for the first time. Furthermore, I honestly don't necessarily find the 2-4 times brand diversity in American supermarkets to be particularly diverse, especially when comparing it to, for example, German supermarkets. Additionally, the size of a market does not imply "more brands" but usually means more space for the same brands, which doesn't necessarily equate to a greater variety.

                                                                                                            But I honestly think U.S.S.upermarkets are great!

                                                                                                            • deaddodo 1 year ago
                                                                                                              > Additionally, the size of a market does not imply "more brands" but usually means more space for the same brands, which doesn't necessarily equate to a greater variety.

                                                                                                              Well, just being someone who grew up in US and living in the EU now. As well as traveling quite prolificly throughout, I can attest (anecdotally, at least), that it does correlate to a larger brand diversity.

                                                                                                          • keiferski 1 year ago
                                                                                                            There are plenty of alternatives available, it's more that Heinz is just "the default."
                                                                                                            • robolange 1 year ago
                                                                                                              Yes, and the alternatives are more or less identical to Heinz. The diversity of flavors and textures that this article talks about no longer exists.
                                                                                                              • keiferski 1 year ago
                                                                                                                I don't think that's true at all, except for the most generic of grocery stores. Case in point: https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/search?text=ketchup

                                                                                                                There are also an innumerable amount of other sauces that include tomatoes and can be considered variants or ketchup-adjacent.

                                                                                                                • FeepingCreature 1 year ago
                                                                                                                  I find all ketchup that isn't Born Ketchup pretty much disgusting.
                                                                                                              • 7373737373 1 year ago
                                                                                                                • Ringz 1 year ago
                                                                                                                  In Berlin, Hela ketchup is called „Techno Ketchup“.
                                                                                                                • Kon-Peki 1 year ago
                                                                                                                  > only Heinz ketchup in all supermarkets in the USA

                                                                                                                  I live in Chicago, we’re lucky to have a single ketchup in the supermarket.

                                                                                                                  (Around the 2:35 mark):

                                                                                                                  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=efG56KcQj0Q

                                                                                                                  • JoeAltmaier 1 year ago
                                                                                                                    Nobody I know gives a single thought to ketchup brands, Heinz or otherwise. Grab whatever is on the shelf, you'll have half a dozen choices. Never in my life have I heard that Heinz is better or higher quality. Just another brand.

                                                                                                                    But hey I live in the Midwest. Maybe the Heinz ketchup marketing juggernaut passed us by.

                                                                                                                    • earthling8118 1 year ago
                                                                                                                      They might've passed your family by but it isn't that rare to hear of a Heinz preference and that includes the Midwest.
                                                                                                                      • carols10cents 1 year ago
                                                                                                                        Tell me you don't know anyone from Pittsburgh without telling me you don't know anyone from Pittsburgh.
                                                                                                                        • JoeAltmaier 1 year ago
                                                                                                                          What is this childish meme of cute redundant commenting? Where does it come from?

                                                                                                                          You have something to say here, say it. Plainly. Without the snark or superior attitude. Take that somewhere else; we won't miss it.

                                                                                                                    • bigie35 1 year ago
                                                                                                                      Kinda weird about atlas obscura articles every since it was discovered several articles have been faked.

                                                                                                                      Granted all those articles were from one author, but I still remain a bit skeptical.

                                                                                                                      • unstatusthequo 1 year ago
                                                                                                                        I for one love the low sugar/salt Sir Kensington’s brand. Has what I want, and less of what I don’t.
                                                                                                                        • _a_a_a_ 1 year ago
                                                                                                                          "And because it [cat-sup] was fermented, it boasted a shelf life of one to seven years."

                                                                                                                          does that really follow?

                                                                                                                          • tokai 1 year ago
                                                                                                                            Yeah its one of the points of fermenting. Maybe even the point of fermentation.

                                                                                                                            "Fermentation was primarily developed for the stabilization of perishable agricultural produce."

                                                                                                                            https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/food-science/food-ferme...

                                                                                                                            • frogulis 1 year ago
                                                                                                                              I've heard of Indian dry mango pickles that are ~20 years old! I guess a product that is dominantly colonised by harmless bacteria is unlikely to be taken over by nasty things, unless it sports food that is tasty to harmful organisms and not friendly ones. Maybe the best defence is the dominant bacterium having eaten all the available sugars so that little further fermentation can occur (and the bottle won't explode)
                                                                                                                              • NikkiA 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                When I was a kid, the pickles we bought would last 2-3 years in some cases - only typically being eaten at special meals like christmas, new years, easter, birthdays.

                                                                                                                                These days I wouldn't trust a modern shop bought pickle to last more than a couple of months before they start to look like they're growing fungus.

                                                                                                                                I don't know what changed, but something did, and commercial pickles these days do not stay safe to eat.

                                                                                                                                • zabzonk 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                  > I guess a product that is dominantly colonised by harmless bacteria is unlikely to be taken over by nasty thing

                                                                                                                                  much like human skin, gut, etc.

                                                                                                                                • MilaM 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                  Yes! Fermentation of fresh foods with lactic acid bacteria increases the acidity of foods and hence the shelf life. As far as I know, though, you also have to add salt to suppress the growth of less desirable microorganisms.

                                                                                                                                  Edit: You can skip the fermanation step by pickling your vegetables with a suitable vinegar. The taste will be much different though.

                                                                                                                                  • frogulis 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                    Yup, my understanding is that salt suppresses many bacteria, then the acid produced by lactobacteria (hopefully) suppresses botulism. Essential to ensure you have enough sugars to convert to acid! Test the pH in your ferments if you're giving them to friends!
                                                                                                                                  • ljf 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                    Fermentation does a few things - it removes some of the excess sugars so other microbes don't have much to feed one, it changes the ph of the liquid so that again it is inhospitable to other microbes, and the mild alcohols can also inhibit other growths.

                                                                                                                                    Wines can taste great (better even!) after years of storage, I would have not problem eating a well ages fermented ketchup.

                                                                                                                                  • LeoPanthera 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                    I moved from the UK to the US and was disappointed to learn that Heinz ketchup is different here. The taste is not the same.

                                                                                                                                    But then I discovered that in the US they sell a variant called "Simply", which seems to be the same recipe as the UK/EU version.

                                                                                                                                    • slipperybeluga 1 year ago
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