Japan's Nikkei surpasses 1989 all-time high

195 points by qclibre22 1 year ago | 218 comments
  • rayiner 1 year ago
    > The rally has also been supported by a weaker yen, which has shed about 6% against the dollar so far this year and seems on track to drop to to 33-year lows touched late last year.

    We just got back from Tokyo and the prices for everything were crazy low. Ordered a bunch of sushi at a mall sushi place in Kyoto for what it would cost for Chipotle in DC. It was a huge shock when we flew back through SF and paid $13 each for a taco truck burrito in Millbrae.

    The Japanese folks I’ve spoken to are pretty grumbly about the weak yen, though.

    • rapsey 1 year ago
      The US has become extraordinary expensive compared to most of the world. Or to say it differently the dollar is likely quite overvalued.
      • modeless 1 year ago
        The other side of this coin is that exports are very difficult. My dad is a nut farmer and the business is completely unsustainable right now. Expenses are through the roof while simultaneously crop prices are at all time lows due to the collapse of exports. It's nuts.
        • thebruce87m 1 year ago
          > It's nuts.

          Is this an industry saying?

          • grugagag 1 year ago
            How come nuts prices aren’t low for consumers though?
          • grecy 1 year ago
            We Canadians used to regularly talk about how cheap the US was, and load up on gas, food, beer, cheese and all the rest when staying in cheap hotels and getting cheap meals with cheap entertainment (concerts, sporting events, etc.). If you could be bothered electronics were cheap, cars were cheap, clothes were cheap, etc. etc.

            In the last ~12 months I have been floored how expensive life in the US is now. I was just down two weeks ago, and everything was either the same dollar number as Canada or higher, but it's in US dollars.

            I don't know how people are doing it.

            • foobiekr 1 year ago
              This was a very very brief moment when the CAD appreciated. Are you sure you didn’t just end up coming of age at a particular moment, specifically 2006-2012?

              Because otherwise the exchange rate has been about where it is now to substantially worse for the rest of the data set.

              • rapsey 1 year ago
                They are doing it with wage growth. Inflation is likely a result of high employment levels. There are more jobs than candidates.

                Personally I believe it is due to the last of the boomers retiring. Economists/analysts are not used to thinking about demographics and they have a blind spot on this ever more important topic.

              • downrightmike 1 year ago
                Overvalued by a lot, we expected a full global crash in which so far in history the USA has bounced back first. But instead we pumped out 20% of all USD ever printed, which created a slow burn. As long as the keep rates where they are or higher, we should recover. I personally think rates are too low, and this last week has proven that is the right view, the market can still remain delusional far longer than I can. The longer the unrealistic expectation of rates falling at all this year, just increases the risk we'll have trouble. Cheap cash is gone, you gotta earn it now. Downvote all you like, doesn't change the fact that rates need to stay up or we risk a similar situation as the early 80's.
                • rapsey 1 year ago
                  I mostly agree the market has entirely unrealistic expectations of rates going lower. I think the cause is structural due to the tight employment market which is not going to change any time soon. The period of low inflation and low rates is over and the market analysts are living in the previous decade.
                  • exclusiv 1 year ago
                    > As long as the keep rates where they are or higher, we should recover.

                    This is not the case and is actually impossible. Impossible they will maintain them or higher. And impossible we would recover.

                    The US is headed towards $1T in interest payments alone annually.

                    $34T in national debt AND $213T in unfunded liabilities. 2/3 of the budget is non-discretionary

                    The longer they stay elevated the more the average interest rate on debt goes up. For the US and the world since it's the reserve currency. This pisses everyone off.

                    Rates will go back down to around 2% because the US AND the world cannot sustain an expensive dollar. There's 65T in eurodollar debt (US dollar denominated debt) globally. [1] I've seen higher estimates too.

                    "Approximately half of all cross-border loans, international debt securities, and trade invoices are denominated in U.S. dollars, while roughly 40 percent of SWIFT messages and 60 percent of global foreign exchange reserves are in dollars." [2]

                    We aren't going to end up back around 2% because the Fed wants to. It's because we have to. You cannot maintain the world reserve currency at these rates after everyone got drunk off the lower rates for decades. And you cannot have the debt load we have and maintain these rates or higher. There's no easy way out of a debt spiral.

                    Just my opinion but rates will go lower. Printing will go into hyperdrive. Inflation will rip. There will be more unrest. Personally, I'm holding inflation-hedging assets.

                    [1] https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/01/65-trillion-debt-bank...

                    [2] https://libertystreeteconomics.newyorkfed.org/2022/07/the-u-...

                    • ffgjgf1 1 year ago
                      How high do you think the rates should be?

                      Historically they are not low at all relative to inflation and considering how highly the government debt to GDP ratio is raising them further would lead to severe issues. Since a surplus or even a balanced federal budget is basically politically (probably financially too) impossible at this point high growth + low rates + predictable moderately high (2-3%) inflation is the only way to keep public debt from spiraling out of control.

                      > risk a similar situation as the early 80's.

                      IMHO the early 80s are about as relevant today as the 30s were back then. So a bit but not a lot. The global economy and financial system (and the position US has in it) is extremely different

                      • giantg2 1 year ago
                        "As long as the keep rates where they are or higher, we should recover."

                        Yet the Fed is talking about rate drops. We're also seeing rising consumer defaults and more perilous bank debt. And those great job numbers aren't that great since we're seeing higher part-time and low wage jobs than before. I'm not sure we're going to really avoid anything.

                      • valdiorn 1 year ago
                        America has always been famous for the fact that everything is extremely cheap. But now I'm seeing videos of people at Costco/Walmart showing the prices of stuff (often while finding an old price label and showing there's been a 50-100% increase over the last year) and it's actually way more expensive than what I pay in the UK.
                        • Pigalowda 1 year ago
                          It’s idiotic. I went to Zermatt and the little grocery store there was cheaper than Seattle Safeway. A ski resort in a land locked country with higher food quality standards that has cheaper food than a coastal US city with a port is absurd. I think safeway is trying to take over QFC/Kroger so that’s great.
                        • ekianjo 1 year ago
                          the dollar is hitting record inflation rates though. does that mean the worst is yet to come for the dollar?
                          • gumby 1 year ago
                            > record inflation rates

                            Record? I guess you didn’t live through the 1970s, much less post WWI and WWII.

                            Of course the deflation of the 1930s was even more destructive!

                            • rapsey 1 year ago
                              The US inflation did not come out of devaluation of the dollar compared to other currencies. It was internal. What that means for the future however I have no idea.

                              But considering the US gov deficits I would assume more inflation is to come with actual devaluation.

                              • screenoridesagb 1 year ago
                                [dead]
                            • justworkout 1 year ago
                              > The Japanese folks I’ve spoken to are pretty grumbly about the weak yen, though.

                              Your money losing half its value in about a year tends to do that.

                              • lobochrome 1 year ago
                                It's not like folks here regularly shop in USD. Sure, summer vacations in Hawaii have become more expensive, but...

                                Import-dependent companies - different story. Export-oriented companies: Yeehaw.

                                • rayiner 1 year ago
                                  Apparently many American and European consumer products have pricing that tends to be indexed to USD. According to my wife, the Japanese women on her handbag forums are quite salty about the price of Chanel and such these days.
                                  • justworkout 1 year ago
                                    Japan is an import-dependent company. Fuel and food are mostly imports, so that hurts everyone.

                                    And export oriented companies are making money. But trickle down economics is a myth, so it's not benefitting the workers. The executives are doing nicely so good for them I suppose.

                                    • 1 year ago
                                    • lottin 1 year ago
                                      It hasn't lost half its value. A "weak yen" simply means the yen depreciated relative to another currency.
                                      • RichEO 1 year ago
                                        Yes but there’s inflation too. The yen has devalued, but also the cost of goods in USD has gone up.
                                      • cko 1 year ago
                                        USD to JPY 1y chart does not show a 50% decline - more like 11%
                                        • justworkout 1 year ago
                                          Because it already collapsed a year ago. Look at 5 years.
                                      • rbanffy 1 year ago
                                        > The Japanese folks I’ve spoken to are pretty grumbly about the weak yen, though.

                                        Worth noting that the Yen was much stronger back in 1989. These peaks are not the same.

                                        • mekster 1 year ago
                                          My graph says it's about the same against USD.
                                        • asutekku 1 year ago
                                          > Ordered a bunch of sushi at a mall sushi place in Kyoto for what it would cost for Chipotle in DC

                                          Mall sushi has always been cheap in japan

                                          • okdood64 1 year ago
                                            Food, in general, has always been cheap in Japan.
                                          • seanmcdirmid 1 year ago
                                            Went this summer and it was a great deal for a two week vacation. As long as you can get an ok price for plane tickets, it is cheaper to visit Japan than much of the USA (assuming American).

                                            It’s too bad China is still hard to get to by plane (Russian airspace being closed really hurts).

                                            • Scoundreller 1 year ago
                                              > It’s too bad China is still hard to get to by plane (Russian airspace being closed really hurts).

                                              Assuming you're flying from eastern US, taking the pacific route to bypass RU airspace instead of the polar route doesn't add that much distance to get to coastal China.

                                              And Chinese airlines can still overfly RU.

                                              • seanmcdirmid 1 year ago
                                                I’m coming from Seattle. Before the pandemic, we had two direct flights. Now the cheapest flight to Beijing is through Istanbul, and the next cheapest ticket (with a much more reasonable flight time) is 50% of the cost, and stop in either Japan or Korea to switch planes.

                                                If you are going to southern China you wouldn’t be save so much going over far east Russia anyways, I guess.

                                                Also, Chinese airlines can’t overfly Russia on the way to the USA, at least for newly approved flights: https://www.reuters.com/world/chinese-airlines-avoiding-russ...

                                                Just 12*2 weekly round trip flights between the USA and China really sucks. There were a lot more before the pandemic. But it seems like we are going to 35 soon? https://simpleflying.com/us-china-lift-number-weekly-flights.... (Or already?)

                                              • rayiner 1 year ago
                                                We flew ZipAir which has amazing prices on lay-flat seats, around $2,000 round trip. Also significant discounts for kids: tickets for my 2 year old and 5 year old were just a few hundred dollars round trip.
                                                • TaylorAlexander 1 year ago
                                                  Checking prices on google flights, assuming a trip in April from SFO where I live, cheapest option is about $800 round trip to Tokyo, or $1050 to Shenzhen. A bit cheaper but maybe not a significant difference for such a long distance trip.
                                                • mym1990 1 year ago
                                                  Same! Just got back and I really miss the cheap everything, and relatively high quality as well. Picked up some Uniqlo things that would have been 2x the price in the US.
                                                  • minebreaker 1 year ago
                                                    So sad "We can't afford Uniqlo" is a meme in Japan...
                                                    • mcmoor 1 year ago
                                                      I guess the meme is because Uniqlo is cheap as fuck there that one have to be so poor to not be able to afford it. But ironically in my country, it's quite a prestige brand because my currency is even weaker so it's actually quite expensive.
                                                    • KptMarchewa 1 year ago
                                                      Idk but maybe Uniqlo is uniquely cheap in Japan as Japanese chain? I've bought Uniqlo in Poland, UK, USA and Korea and prices stayed relatively consistent.
                                                      • mym1990 1 year ago
                                                        It’s more about the exchange rate, 150 yen to a dollar is verryyy good for the dollar.
                                                      • 1 year ago
                                                      • crossroadsguy 1 year ago
                                                        Perils of dollar maintaining whatever value it wants to maintain by just whims and fancy and the rest of the world trying to wag their tails and trying to keep up, or not.
                                                        • ipnon 1 year ago
                                                          Restaurant food is cheap in Japan because there are many high-quality restaurants. The competition drives the price down. Furthermore it may be in the best interest of Japan for their monetary policy to weaken the yen because it induces demand in tourism.
                                                          • glandium 1 year ago
                                                            Tourism is a tiny part of Japan's economy.
                                                        • anthk 1 year ago
                                                          $13 it's damn expensive, by comparison you can get a decent meal (nothing fancy, but not fast food level) at mosts restaurants in Spain.
                                                          • megablast 1 year ago
                                                            Sushi is cheaper in Japan?
                                                            • adastra22 1 year ago
                                                              Sushi is waaaaay cheaper in Japan. Always has been, now more so.
                                                              • Detrytus 1 year ago
                                                                It's the island country with fishing being well developed part of the economy, so of course fish-based food is dirt cheap.
                                                            • SCAQTony 1 year ago
                                                              Their economy is still not doing well. The sole reason that the NIKKEI is storming it is that banks only offer negative interest rates on bank deposits. Thus, the NIKKEI is the only real option left.

                                                              https://www.focus-economics.com/country-indicator/japan/inte....

                                                              • givemeethekeys 1 year ago
                                                                Japanese TINA. They finally have inflation, which means they finally have growth regardless of whether they have productivity gain.
                                                                • yayitswei 1 year ago
                                                                  "There Is No Alternative"? I had to consult ChatGPT to get that acronym explained.
                                                                  • n6242 1 year ago
                                                                    thank you for clarifying, the grandparent comment made no sense
                                                                  • overstay8930 1 year ago
                                                                    I was highly suspicious of the implication that the Japanese government would do anything other than making sure nothing changes
                                                                • minebreaker 1 year ago
                                                                  Meanwhile the real wages are dropping like a waterfall and the cheap yen is hurting our lives disastrously.

                                                                  https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/15151006

                                                                  • amrocha 1 year ago
                                                                    Funny how every single foreigner seems to think the "weak yen" is ruining everyone's lives and yet I've never heard a Japanese person complain about it
                                                                    • minebreaker 1 year ago
                                                                      I'm Japanese.
                                                                      • amrocha 1 year ago
                                                                        Sorry for assuming you weren't
                                                                      • numpad0 1 year ago
                                                                        Not to be judgemental, I doubt you usually hear a lot from Japanese person in the first place; most Japanese don't speak English at all. Locals speaking to a BBC reporter in fluent English don't happen in Japan or with Japanese users on Internet.

                                                                        Japanese public education curricula do include "English", but it's largely "English-Japanese document translations" classes than actual English, which is good for research papers and bureaucratic letters, works like any 2000s machine translation in conversations. The majority won't bring that technique out and employ it well to win an Internet pub fight, especially on societal-macro-economical problems, so you likely will not hear anything from actual Japanese people on this topic or anything else.

                                                                        • amrocha 1 year ago
                                                                          I live in Japan, speak Japanese fluently, and have mostly Japanese friends
                                                                          • frameset 1 year ago
                                                                            This might shock you, but BBC correspondents who live in Japan either have access to translators, or can speak the language.
                                                                          • cheviethai123 1 year ago
                                                                            It's a double-edged sword though. A weaker yen can increase export sales, however import value will be much higher. Currently, most products in Japan are made from Japanese companies, which is why the Japanese people don't feel the impact yet.
                                                                            • amrocha 1 year ago
                                                                              There's a strong home market bias in Japan, and the government is helping with gas prices as well.
                                                                              • mekster 1 year ago
                                                                                Manufacturing domestically doesn't mean it's not influenced.

                                                                                Much food and natural resources are imported, not to mention anything dollar pegged like smartphones are simply getting more expensive. Seriously, stuffs like iPhone and GPU feel stupidly expensive but when you check the price in dollars, they look acceptable.

                                                                              • yamakadi 1 year ago
                                                                                My wage in terms of dollars have remained the same for the last 5 years despite earning double. It's not ruining my life only because it takes longer for prices to increase here -- but they are definitely increasing.

                                                                                Japanese people also don't like talking about wages and not everyone compares what they are making to the dollar. I have heard plenty of colleagues, friends, and family complain. It's more about how the number of diapers in a bag has decreased steadily from 72 to 56 than boy my life is getting ruined by weak yen.

                                                                                The more prevalent complaints are from fellow mortgage borrowers. Variable rates in Japan have been steady for nearly 30 years, meaning a substantial number of borrowers are watching the central bank's moves like a hawk and are terrified of even any talks of rate increases.

                                                                                TLDR: We are just not loud complainers (and frankly, if any Japanese person you know is hopefully very lucky, they might be earning just enough to not notice it all)

                                                                                • amrocha 1 year ago
                                                                                  I hear what you're saying about Japanese people not complaining as much, but I don't think it's just that. The only time they complain about 円安 is when they go abroad, which isn't very often.

                                                                                  The problem is a lot more noticeable for foreigners living in Japan temporarily because they don't think of their worth in the local currency. They then generalize their problems to the rest of the population.

                                                                                  When you think of your money in dollars, and you see it going down a lot, it looks like a life or death crisis. But the average person in Japan sees prices go up a bit, which is frustrating, but not to the same degree.

                                                                              • mekster 1 year ago
                                                                                What kind of exaggeration is that?

                                                                                Things are getting more expensive slightly over the years and that is nothing disastrous unless your life was already quite disastrous and made it even worse or you're purely an importer or rely on natural resources to see weak yen ruin your business.

                                                                                Otherwise, it's mostly life as usual.

                                                                              • MichaelRo 1 year ago
                                                                                Japanese man in his 70s: "Yippee Yay! It only took 34 years to get back what I invested in the index, because indexes always go up. And now everything costs double".
                                                                                • riffraff 1 year ago
                                                                                  The returns of the investment are not the index price, these companies have been paying dividends for 30 years.

                                                                                  If you look at the actual returns they recovered years ago (tho not so long).

                                                                                  • mdorazio 1 year ago
                                                                                    Looks like the Nikkei 225 average dividend yield is around 1.4%. If you bought in 1989 and reinvested dividends it looks like you would have briefly broken even in 2015 (ignoring inflation), then hit solid black sometime in 2017. This is completely absurd and shows how huge of a factor timing is in market investments.

                                                                                    Remember, kids, dollar cost averaging is usually the way to go.

                                                                                    • valzam 1 year ago
                                                                                      Yeah but it's also an absurdly rare occurrence that someone would put 100% of their wealth I to the stock market RIGHT before the crash and then never invests again (more than the dividends). These headlines are fun and all but not very relevant for most people
                                                                                  • lawn 1 year ago
                                                                                    Investing everything in a single country, even if in the index, has never been a good idea.

                                                                                    The advice is to invest as broadly and globally as possible, which has resulted in very good return during the last 35 years.

                                                                                    Also, nothing "always goes up". Index investing over long periods of time simple gives you the best risk adjusted returns.

                                                                                    • infecto 1 year ago
                                                                                      While academically you are correct, I am not sure I would say it has never been a good idea. I have a US bias but most portfolios in the US have a significant if not total weighting on domestic markets. Even in my memory of the last 10 years there have been continuous questions on how much international exposure one should have. Most of the time you see something like a 5-10% exposure in international markets which in theory gives you the "best risk adjusted returns" but in reality since the US has been a continuous powerhouse, gives you a lower overall return.
                                                                                      • mekster 1 year ago
                                                                                        Many people, especially in Japan don't realize not investing and simply saving means they're actually investing in their own country long term, which for Japan, doesn't look like a smart strategy at this point.
                                                                                      • offices 1 year ago
                                                                                        The Boglehead philosophy has always required depending on the exceptionalism of a single country during a single century.
                                                                                        • UncleMeat 1 year ago
                                                                                          The boglehead philosophy involves slow accumulation of an index portfolio over time. Not many people had a huge windfall in 1989 and put it all in the Nikkei at once. The money you invested in 1980 is up 500% before dividends.
                                                                                          • offices 1 year ago
                                                                                            The money invested in 1940 is on fire.
                                                                                          • infecto 1 year ago
                                                                                            You are not entirely wrong. The thing is though, the US has been an economic powerhouse on the global stage for decades. The US health impacts much of the rest of the world's markets.
                                                                                            • rthnbgrredf 1 year ago
                                                                                              While that is true, there's also no guarantee that we do not see a stagnation of the world stock markets for decades. World indices are also highly concentrated to a few countries, e.g. US is more than 60%.
                                                                                            • UncleMeat 1 year ago
                                                                                              Yes, if you invested all of your wealth in the index right before the crash then you were in very bad shape. But this isn't how most investment works. You buy in as you accumulate more savings. Most investors also got to experience and benefit from the extreme runup.
                                                                                              • creer 1 year ago
                                                                                                Hopefully they didn't sit around without investing for 34 years.The evolution of what they invest 34 years ago (at the peak) is only one part of the equation. There is also what was invest a while before that. And when was earned and invested each year since. No matter which country, you don't want to find yourself investing only at the peak and nothing before or after.
                                                                                              • niemandhier 1 year ago
                                                                                                The crisis in Europe, the unpredictability of American politics, and the mounting tensions with China make Japan a attractive alternative for investing right now.

                                                                                                Japan has been in an economic stasis for decades, some believe this to be triggered by the 1985 Plaza Accords which devalued the Dollar against the Mark and the Yen.

                                                                                                Germany recovered from that shock by absorbing East Germany and pushing EU integration. Japan did not have this options, but the new multipolar world order might give them an opportunity.

                                                                                                This will probably be to the detriment of Germany and the US, which both probably would like to increase the value of the yen.

                                                                                                But given that the American are not perceived as a reliable partner right now, I do not see something like the Plaza Cords coming again any time soon.

                                                                                                Plaza Accords: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaza_Accord

                                                                                                Impact on Yen and Mark: https://www.macrotrends.net/2550/dollar-yen-exchange-rate-hi...https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/312004/umfrag...

                                                                                                • farseer 1 year ago
                                                                                                  Germany is doing just fine, it passed Japan as the bigger economy. Japan is one declining, their demographic shrinkage and a stagnant economy for the past 3 decades.
                                                                                                  • mekster 1 year ago
                                                                                                    > Germany is doing just fine

                                                                                                    Perhaps do a little research than believe whatever you want to believe?

                                                                                                    Just searching for "german economy" would yield the world is saying the opposite.

                                                                                                    • farseer 1 year ago
                                                                                                      I did do bit of research. Please tell me what am I missing?

                                                                                                      Japan

                                                                                                      GDP: $4.230 trillion GDP Per Capita: $33,950 Expected 2024 Growth: 1.0%

                                                                                                      Germany

                                                                                                      GDP: $4.4 trillion GDP Per Capita: $52,800 Expected 2024 Growth: 0.2%

                                                                                                    • adastra22 1 year ago
                                                                                                      Did you read the article? Or even just the headline?
                                                                                                      • puzzlingcaptcha 1 year ago
                                                                                                        A rally in the stock market does not necessarily reflect a strong economy. See e.g. Abenomics
                                                                                                  • bobthepanda 1 year ago
                                                                                                    In 2021 the Bank of Japan had become the largest shareholder in the Nikkei. Is that still true? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-06/boj-becom...
                                                                                                    • mariojv 1 year ago
                                                                                                      Not sure, but BOJ was a net seller of stocks in 2023: https://asia.nikkei.com/Economy/Bank-of-Japan/BOJ-turned-net...

                                                                                                      So, it seems like they're at least starting to offload their stock holdings.

                                                                                                      I was very surprised when I learned that their central bank was purchasing stocks. I'd heard about it first in 2020, but apparently it had been going on before the pandemic.

                                                                                                      It makes me wonder if the US stock market crashed hard enough if the Fed would start buying up stocks on the major indexes. Are they even legally allowed to do this? If so, what other assets can the Fed acquire? REITs? What about direct real estate purchases? I wonder if corporate real estate crashed hard enough from remote work if they'd prop it up.

                                                                                                      • pepy 1 year ago
                                                                                                        If push came to shove, the FED's last resort could be to buy stock ETFs
                                                                                                        • gingkoguy 1 year ago
                                                                                                          Bro that happened in covid
                                                                                                          • TeaBrain 1 year ago
                                                                                                            The federal reserve buys bonds in order to increase the money supply, as happened during 2020. It isn't allowed to buy stock. In 2020, the fed bought treasury securities, mortgage bonds and also corporate bonds for the first time (which might be what you are thinking of).
                                                                                                            • mariojv 1 year ago
                                                                                                              ???

                                                                                                              Are you claiming the Fed has directly purchased US stocks? I don't think they have.

                                                                                                              I've only ever seen reports of them buying government and mortgage debt: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/22/how-the-federal-reserve-affe...

                                                                                                              You can argue the purpose of these actions was to prop up the stock market, but I don't think they've ever intervened in as direct a manner as the Bank of Japan has with buying company stocks.

                                                                                                              • kortilla 1 year ago
                                                                                                                No it didn’t. The fed doesn’t buy stocks
                                                                                                          • yyy888sss 1 year ago
                                                                                                            Price of gold in 1989: ~2000 yen/g

                                                                                                            Price of gold in 2024: 9,800 yen/g

                                                                                                            • SECProto 1 year ago
                                                                                                              Here's data for the price of gold over the same period in USD, showing almost same 5x increase. Could you explain the relevance of either to this story about the Nikkei?

                                                                                                              Price of gold in 1989: ~$370 USD/oz

                                                                                                              Price of gold in 2024: ~2000 USD/oz

                                                                                                              • lmm 1 year ago
                                                                                                                The relevance is that this is not remotely an all-time high when denominated in gold (and, presumably, an implicit claim that a valuation in gold is in somehow more "real" than a valuation in nominal yen)
                                                                                                                • UncleMeat 1 year ago
                                                                                                                  Okay. But denominating in gold is a weird thing to do and only looks this way when you pick specific dates. Pick 1987 and 2000 as your dates and things look very different.
                                                                                                                  • kortilla 1 year ago
                                                                                                                    That’s idiotic because nobody actually deals in gold. It just means gold appreciates some amount.

                                                                                                                    The way this is handled is standard inflation adjustment based on things people actually use.

                                                                                                              • alephnan 1 year ago
                                                                                                                Meanwhile, Japan entered recession last week.
                                                                                                                • 1 year ago
                                                                                                                  • deadbabe 1 year ago
                                                                                                                    Finally people can stop pointing to the Japanese stock market as an example of a crash that never recovered.
                                                                                                                    • nmfisher 1 year ago
                                                                                                                      The lesson is still relevant though - i.e. if you bought shares in the top 100 Japanese companies in 1989, it would have taken you ~35 years to break even in nominal terms. That's clearly a bad investment.
                                                                                                                      • Grimburger 1 year ago
                                                                                                                        Forgetting dividends here.
                                                                                                                        • thsksbd 1 year ago
                                                                                                                          And you are forgetting that the index's underlying measure, the yen, has lost value and the NIKKEI has only reached 1989's nominal value.
                                                                                                                          • mdorazio 1 year ago
                                                                                                                            Roughly 27 years with dividend reinvestment (yes, really).
                                                                                                                        • thsksbd 1 year ago
                                                                                                                          30 years to reach nominal parity? Normalize out inflation and the Nikkei still sucks - despite Japan's infamously low inflation.
                                                                                                                          • xyzzy4747 1 year ago
                                                                                                                            Well it also paid dividends the entire time too which doesn’t get factored into the price. So maybe it matched up with inflation. I don’t know either way. You’d have to compare the total return with the total inflation.
                                                                                                                            • dosinga 1 year ago
                                                                                                                              Inflation was about 0.5% and dividend yield around 1% so it's still up
                                                                                                                            • kortilla 1 year ago
                                                                                                                              It hasn’t. Adjust for inflation and include the risk free rate of return and it’s an ugly picture.
                                                                                                                              • EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                >> Adjust for inflation and include the risk free rate of return

                                                                                                                                You should choose one of those two, not both.

                                                                                                                              • echelon 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                > Finally people can stop pointing to the Japanese stock market as an example of a crash that never recovered.

                                                                                                                                Except it's not the same yen to yen comparison on account of inflation.

                                                                                                                                • mekster 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                  Depends on your definition of "never". 35 years does sound like "never" for many people.
                                                                                                                                • mlcrypto 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                  Hmm maybe the bull market is just beginning around the world
                                                                                                                                  • nothercastle 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                    They finally got the inflation they wanted for 30 years
                                                                                                                                    • 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                      • patrick451 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                        And this is why investing I don't invest in index funds.
                                                                                                                                        • derriz 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                          Investing in the (broad) index doesn’t promise a positive real return. It promises lower volatility than any stock picking strategy. If you want exposure to the Japanese economy, then index investing is still the right choice if you want to maximize return for a given volatility.
                                                                                                                                          • EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                            It depends on the % of investors that are in those broad indexes. If too many people flock into them, they become more risky than an average stock. And stocks in indexes become overvalued compared to stocks not in indexes.
                                                                                                                                            • silverquiet 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                              If you’ve got a stock picking strategy that promises a real return, I’m all ears. As far as I know, the market makes no promises period.
                                                                                                                                            • Pooge 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                              I really don't see how one example of an index going down makes all the others a bad investment. Sure the Nikkei is diversified across industries but it's not comparable to international indexes.
                                                                                                                                              • riffraff 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                That's not the only issue with this reasoning, this index is not a total returns one. And if you had been investing regularly you'd have bought companies at the Lowe price, which has produced a 2-3 times return in the last ten years.

                                                                                                                                                Still, I also prefer global indexes.

                                                                                                                                                • lucianbr 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                  I think the point is that "indexes are overall superior to stock picking, and always go up over long periods of time" is disproved by the history of Nikkei.

                                                                                                                                                  Sure, at a given time and place, an index may be better. At other times one or two stocks may be better. But I think the "time in the market beats timing the market, always" is kind of negated by Japan's lost decades.

                                                                                                                                                  • adastra22 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                    Cherry picking the ONE counter example is not proving your point.
                                                                                                                                                    • KptMarchewa 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                      Second part of typical boglehead advice which you conveniently ignored is dollar cost averaging.
                                                                                                                                                  • KptMarchewa 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                    I've heard index funds require you to buy them only in single installment. Buying them over time to minimize impact of some peak is not allowed.
                                                                                                                                                    • Pooge 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                      Which is completely countered by purchasing ETFs.
                                                                                                                                                    • strikelaserclaw 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                      investing in anything carries some degree of risk?