macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

188 points by siddharthgoel88 1 year ago | 258 comments
  • grodriguez100 1 year ago
    I find it difficult to imagine how a change like this (sending a SIGKILL to the process instead of SIGSEGV on a page fault) can be done in the final release and not in one of the EA releases or betas. It is clearly a breaking change with no easy workaround (since SIGKILL cannot be caught), for a behaviour which is well defined by POSIX.

    Even if you momentarily ignore the reasons why someone thought this could be a good idea, why not do it in one of the pre-releases or betas??? Doesn’t look like the kind of thing you’d want to do in a last minute change.

    The real problem in my opinion is the fact that you cannot go back after a macOS upgrade. So if something like this happens, you literally have no option but waiting for Apple to release a fix, if they want to do it at all.

    • lupusreal 1 year ago
      It sounds like the kind of half-baked change a junior dev might come up with, but lord knows how it made it through code review and into a release.
      • baq 1 year ago
        hypothetical excerpt from the commit message:

           code review: self-reviewed
           test plan: this change is so obvious no tests are needed
        • steve1977 1 year ago
          I wish you were joking…
        • DontBreakAlex 1 year ago
          I think someone changed the SIGSEV to a SIGKILL to debug something and forgot to revert it before merging (boo reviewer boo !)
          • raverbashing 1 year ago
            That's easy to guess

            The good kernel engineers are working on iPhone or Vision Pro, not on MacOS

            • t-sauer 1 year ago
              Don't they all use the same kernel?
            • Mindwipe 1 year ago
              Especially when it was not in the beta version and introduced with the release candidate.

              I do not have very kind words for Apple's dev teams today. Charitably I am trying to think that screwups happen, but this is bad and it is very hard to see how anyone thought merging it into an rc was okay.

            • ByQuyzzy 1 year ago
              It’s obvious that all the good Unix people left Apple eons ago.
              • exabrial 1 year ago
                [flagged]
              • baq 1 year ago
                Been saying this for as long as I’ve been using macOS: it is not a developer friendly OS and am close to the conclusion that this reputation is a psy-op. Yeah it’s pretty, it mostly works when the box is first turned on and the hardware is unmatched but macOS itself is actually subpar. QA seems second tier, things you’d except from other OSes like, I don’t know, using a third party second display are just bad experiences. Docker sucks, posix compatibility is technically there but isn’t really useful, the thing randomly loses network and only rebooting fixes it. I reboot my corporate Mac more often than I rebooted my windows enterprise laptop.
                • addicted 1 year ago
                  The reputation was well earned when Linux on the Desktop wasn’t as easy or friendly as it is today and was severely lacking good quality GUI applications.

                  Windows was a virus laden mess and was not useful for running Linux apps.

                  And besides the flaws of the other OS’es, OS X had some of the nicest window management features (Expose from the Snow Leopard is still my favorite window switcher), was a UNIX and had a thriving indie development scene (which was basically killed by iOS…).

                  Since then OSX has completely languished as a developer platform. It’s not clear what you can do today as a developer to make your life easier that you could not a decade ago on OSX. And in fact, the destruction of the indie dev scene, combined with the many heavy handed security restrictions of dubious benefit have made it a far worse dev environment than a decade and a half ago.

                  Further, Linux DEs have greatly improved and Windows now supports Linux development.

                  The Mac ecosystem has seen a complete turnaround where you now buy a Mac for the hardware, not the software.

                  • vbezhenar 1 year ago
                    Here are few particular things that I like about development in my mac:

                    1. Terminal is very usable, compared to Windows cmd. Modern Gnome Terminal is good, though.

                    2. Cmnd+C for copy, Ctrl+C for SIGINT.

                    3. Touch ID instead of root password, which works with Bluetooth keyboard as well, and that's with absolutely minimal configuration, uncommenting single line.

                    • blackoil 1 year ago
                      1. Default is now Windows Terminal which is so much better than Cmd and Mac Terminal.

                      2. Ctrl+C works for copy when text is selected otherwise SIGINT.

                      • benterix 1 year ago
                        > Terminal is very usable, compared to Windows cmd.

                        It is subpar, however, when compared to Windows Terminal.

                        • lupusreal 1 year ago
                          > Cmnd+C for copy, Ctrl+C for SIGINT.

                          Can't compete with the streamlined easy of highlight-to-copy. I never use a keyboard shortcut to copy text from a terminal (except for yanking in vim / evil-mode)

                          • pdimitar 1 year ago
                            1. Who cares? I use iTerm2, Alacritty and Rio and they all work very well. Programmers don't have trouble installing alternative programs.

                            2. I remember the XFCE4 Terminal using Ctrl-Shift-C and Ctrl-Shift-V for copy/paste and liking it, no more SIGINT by mistake. But IMO a minor gripe, you can remap keys for copy/paste in most self-respecting terminal emulators anyway.

                            3. I agree on that but passwordless sudo saved my sanity and I don't care anymore. If I install a virus then I had all the troubles coming and I'll take responsibility. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

                          • pjmlp 1 year ago
                            My reason to use Macs is for the modern version of NeXTSTEP and iDevices, not really for the overpriced hardware.

                            However at home I have always been a Windows/Amiga/UNIX head, with Linux being the cheaper path to that UNIX experience, had Microsoft not messed up the POSIX layer, probably I would never have bothered.

                            For some time I even tried to acquire one of those nice Toshiba laptops using Solaris that Sun used to have.

                            • self_awareness 1 year ago
                              > And besides the flaws of the other OS’es, OS X had some of the nicest window management features

                              I'm always confused by such statements, because what KDE offers on Linux easily dwarfs every window management concept in every major OS. I always need to install additional third-party apps (e.g. Rectangle on macOS) to get a poor-man's equivalent of KDE-style window management functionality.

                              • addicted 1 year ago
                                > had

                                Nothing came close to OSX’s Expose 15 years ago.

                                OSX has gone backwards in terms of windows management since then.

                                Linux is far superior. Even Windows is slightly better because at least windows snap to edges.

                                • bdavbdav 1 year ago
                                  But I don’t have a subset of apps that work in x11, and a subset in wayland… nor inconsistent display fractional scaling in MacOS. Wanted to love KDE, but in complex setups, it’s difficult.
                              • blashyrk 1 year ago
                                I cannot believe that, on macOS, high cpu usage leads to audio buffer underruns and popping, like something from the 90s but on today's premium hardware. It's inexcusable. On a platform that is constantly touted as the best for audio work, DAWs etc no less.
                                • piyush_soni 1 year ago
                                  Wow, I thought I'm the only one as when asked in my Team no one agreed to facing these issues - but I faced it on multiple new Macbook Pros.
                                  • dawnerd 1 year ago
                                    I discovered them when running stable diffusion which maxes out my m1max and audio started to stutter a lot despite everything else running fine. I was even thinking to myself how nice it is to be able to tax the machine and this be able to use it.
                                    • vbezhenar 1 year ago
                                      I experienced it, but I'm not sure if it relates to high CPU. My guess it's something about kernel locks.
                                    • Daedren 1 year ago
                                      Yep, it's been like this for.. I don't know how long now. I have "killlall coreaudiod" always ready to be used on my M1 Mac since it's a constant problem.
                                      • alex_duf 1 year ago
                                        changing the volume of the sound under high CPU load will also move the balance one side.

                                        I often have to re-center the balance, it's driving me nuts.

                                      • 486sx33 1 year ago
                                        Thought the popping was a Rosetta 2 bug as I had only noticed it running x86 software on m2 pro.

                                        Your explanation makes a lot more sense as x86 is probably the only time I’m pushing the cpu usage high enough.

                                        The popping is darn annoying

                                        • blashyrk 1 year ago
                                          It precedes the switch to ARM. My 2019 (last Intel generation) MBP also had this issue. And the previous one from 2015 (though that poor thing only had 8GB of RAM).
                                        • darby_eight 1 year ago
                                          [dead]
                                        • EthicalSimilar 1 year ago
                                          I’ve been using macOS as my primary development environment for the past ~4 years and have loved every minute of it. I haven’t run into any of the issues you’ve mentioned thankfully, and docker works absolutely fine for my use cases. I can’t see myself ever switching for any reason.
                                          • surgical_fire 1 year ago
                                            I've been using MacOS for about 5 years, as it is the machine issued by my workplace. And I hate it. It's so much worse than Linux that it's not even a joke. Hell, I think I would have preferred to work on Windows with WSL than this crap.

                                            The hardware is not even that good. I presume people like it because it looks slick and serves as a status symbol.

                                            • culopatin 1 year ago
                                              Please name a competitor with better laptop hardware (I assume your workplace provided you with a laptop). Things such as better screen, lower fan noise/computing power ratio, speaker quality, touchpad and battery life.
                                              • sneak 1 year ago
                                                I didn’t realize you were joking until the second paragraph.
                                            • okamiueru 1 year ago
                                              MacOS has bugs and inconsistencies everywhere. Some are bugs, some are inconsistent UX, only a few of them are "well... I just don't like it". An example: you cannot right click app-icons in the Docker in the mission control overview.

                                              The list of specific annoyances and bugs is likely in the 3 digits by now, and I've only used it for half a year.

                                              The worst of all was getting the M2 soft-bricked by an update, because I had changed the display frame rate to 60Hz, because the tween duration when moving between desktops was for some reason tied to this refresh rate. About 2 second tween duration on 120 Hz until input control, and one second on 60 Hz. Impressive for such a thing to not be picked up by QA.

                                              • anal_reactor 1 year ago
                                                Mac OS UX is just bad. I've been using it daily for a few years already, but I still struggle to perform basic tasks. And by "basic" I mean "How do I move a file?" or "How do I go one folder up?". Sure, I can read about this, but this shouldn't require me to read a manual.
                                                • nerdix 1 year ago
                                                  Finder is an abomination. No app has been quite as rage inducing for me personally as Finder.

                                                  I use the command line almost exclusively for file management and avoid it like the plague.

                                                  • cma 1 year ago
                                                    Not as bad as:

                                                    How to lose your work using Undo Copy in Windows

                                                    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35927413

                                                    • okamiueru 1 year ago
                                                      It's a special kind of stubbornness that makes it so that a file manager doesn't have support for cut and paste, in order to move files.

                                                      The answer to most "it's a bit dumb that MacOS doesn't let you / forces you to" is "install app X, Y, Z".

                                                      - Don't like that apple's "Music" app pops up when you connect a Bluetooth headset? => Install an app.

                                                      - Want to be able to "alt tab" through windows of the same program, or in general not be uselessly flawed? => Install an app

                                                      - Want to be able to move and resize windows without aiming at the exact edge pixels of the window? => Install an app.

                                                      - Want to move & resize windows to very common places and sizes on a screen? => Install an app.

                                                      - Want global hotkeys for whatever? => Install an app

                                                      - Want a software package management system a'la apt? => Install an app.

                                                      - Want to rebind keys or make things like Home/End not be dead keys... because apple keyboards don't have that, and they cannot be bothered with it. "you should be using "⌘ + →" anyways... or, I suppose it depends on the window"? => Install an app.

                                                      - etc....

                                                      You don't get any of these annoyances with Linux / Gnome. "Why not use that if you hate MacOS so much?" I pretend to hear you say. First of all, because of anti-competitive reasons by Apple, I sort of have to. Secondly... something something angry old man yells at clouds.

                                                      • kjkjadksj 1 year ago
                                                        The gui is no different than windows in this regard. If you do it on command line its just mv and cd like its been for 40 years.
                                                      • chrisandchris 1 year ago
                                                        Not to defend MacOS, but Windows is the no. 1 of incosistent UIs - by large. If you want a consistent UI, choose Linux.
                                                        • okamiueru 1 year ago
                                                          Windows has a mess of legacy UI that are never fully replaced.

                                                          They could have gone down the path of translating the windows UI APIs, though I think it's better that they left it as is. The bigger issue however, is that there are different systems depending on what it is you want to configure, and it's all ducktaped in an ancient registry that I'm just amazed only breaks as often as it does.

                                                          Not to mention that the thing Windows was supposed to always be better at, was driver support. On windows, you have to manually source them, and try as best to avoid all the bloatware that comes with. Windows itself might also decide to replace a driver with an older one (version, release date...). WiFi drivers didn't work last time I upgraded the mobo either.

                                                          As for Linux. Completely agree. Gnome is consistent, and gets out of the way often enough. There are some annoyances there too. I have my 90 y/o grandma use Linux/Gnome, because that's what Just Works these days.

                                                          • bzzzt 1 year ago
                                                            Linux can be consistent if you reject all but applications built in your desktops toolkit of choice. Which means you're missing out on a lot of applications.
                                                        • bzzzt 1 year ago
                                                          Strange. I've got the complete opposite experience. Most displays work fine. It helps if you stick with models that advertise at least a bit of macOS support (like some Dells or Samsungs). Docker sucks, but there's Orbstack. I don't care for posix, but most of my *nix tools are available in Homebrew. Network is steady and more bulletproof than wireless on Linux. Is your experience based on a recent mac?
                                                          • jsheard 1 year ago
                                                            The problem with third party displays on the Mac is the system has some deeply held assumptions that all monitors are as pixel-dense as the ones which Apple ships with their machines. 100% DPI scaling for classic ~100ppi monitors is a poor experience since macOS no longer supports subpixel font rendering, and DPI scales higher than 100% but less than 200% are really just 200% in a trenchcoat because the system renders everything at 200% then uses non-integer resampling to squish it onto the display. That works well enough on the ~220ppi panels that Apple uses but isn't ideal on common 4K displays which are usually around 140-160ppi.

                                                            It's not unusable if you at least have one of those medium density 4K monitors, but it feels like a step backwards if you're used to Windows which still (mostly) supports subpixel font rendering for crisp text at 100% scale, and can render natively at 125/150/175% scales.

                                                            • mdedetrich 1 year ago
                                                              While this is definitely an issue, ironically we may get to a point at some time where subpixel rendering becomes less and less useful, for reasons aside from pixel density.

                                                              As you know, subpixel rendering only works when you have a very specific display (i.e. LCD) since it takes advantage of, and hence relies on precise characteristics of how the pixels are physically laid out in the display.

                                                              This means that subpixel rendering fails to work on displays that have different layouts, the most recent example of this have been newer OLED displays (I think QD-OLED) which has a different pixel arrangement and then you ironically had Windows users complaining that the text looked jagged (although you are able to change the algorithm for subpixel rendering to match the QD-OLED, the unfortunate problem here is that its not really possible for this to work all for applications as it depends on which UI engine you are using, Windows is a giant mess here).

                                                              Long story short, I can see why Mac removed sub pixel rendering, its basically a workaround that reflected a time when you had less dense displays which were all LCD and had the same physical layout. Nowadays though high pixel density displays are a lot more common and then you don't need sub pixel rendering at all (and it works with all of the different physical pixel layout arrangements)

                                                              • user_of_the_wek 1 year ago
                                                                Yes, this is irking me too. You really need a high density display to enjoy macOS, it shouldn't be like that. I guess they like to leave the baggage behind.
                                                                • zuhsetaqi 1 year ago
                                                                  I use both, Windows and macOS on the same two 4K 27" monitors and don’t see any problems or that Windows is sharper or something like this
                                                                • piyush_soni 1 year ago
                                                                  I have a modern Dell supported 4K display supporting USB-C to USB-C connection. macOS shows black screen for a few seconds before being able to show anything. Also using the 4K monitor with an actual 4K resolution makes everything very slow, so I just use it with lower resolutions :|. Never saw such issues on even entry level Windows laptops.
                                                                  • bzzzt 1 year ago
                                                                    Is it macOS or the monitor not being responsive? Also, if it's slow your laptop might be too old to properly support 4K or you might have misconfigured something.

                                                                    At least Dell supports their hardware: have you tried updating the monitor firmware or submitting a report?

                                                                  • nullwarp 1 year ago
                                                                    > Network is steady and more bulletproof than wireless on Linux.

                                                                    I gotta disagree hard here. Macs have by far the most obnoxious and temperamental WiFi stack I've ever experienced. Constant disconnects, have to turn it off and on to get it to bother looking for APs again. All of them constantly trigger bad experience scores in UniFi.

                                                                    Absolutely subpar compared to any of my Linux devices, even the raspberry pi jammed inside a metal box.

                                                                    • 1 year ago
                                                                    • Razengan 1 year ago
                                                                      > Been saying this for as long as I’ve been using macOS: it is not a developer friendly OS

                                                                      My opinion and experience is the exact opposite. In fact, I switched to Macs BECAUSE of how good macOS was for development and just general work and daily life.

                                                                      Around 10-12 years ago I got an iPad, my first ever Apple purchase, as a gift for my aunt. I loved how simple and clean iOS was and found the apps and games interesting, so I thought I'd dabble in iOS dev. I was on Windows 8 at the time (and already sick of Microsoft's bs) so I downloaded a VMWare image for Mac OS X Lion.

                                                                      As the days went by I found myself spending more time in macOS than in Windows, and enjoying it! A month later I bought my first ever MacBook and never looked back.

                                                                      Well, sometimes I do look back at Windows, in a VM on macOS, just to try some games, and man, it's still a sad joke in 2024.

                                                                      • tikkabhuna 1 year ago
                                                                        > posix compatibility is technically there but isn’t really useful

                                                                        It's been a long time since I ran a Macbook, but this was my biggest problem. The weird uncanny valley where its almost the same but then not.

                                                                        WSL has problems but there's a very clear line in the sand between Linux and Windows and you know what you're getting.

                                                                        • tigeroil 1 year ago
                                                                          Indeed - I recently switched to Linux and I'm much happier. I'm shocked how much better the experience is lately.
                                                                          • 1 year ago
                                                                            • 0xcrypto 1 year ago
                                                                              Agree with this. I tried to create objective C files in xcode 15.2 many times, spent days thinking I must have messed up somewhere and finally I found this https://forums.developer.apple.com/forums/thread/743032.

                                                                              Tried updating to latest xcode, learned that my Mac's storage is almost full. Why? iOS simulator images were taking a whopping 40 GB of space even when I didnt target those iOS versions nor tested on those simulator devices. I uninstalled all the images keeping the one I build for. Next tried updating Xcode again, the issue with creating objective C files was fixed. But then it forced me to download the iOS 17.2 again along with tvOS and a bunch of other extra things. Now my space is close to full again. Why Apple? Why do I need iOS 17.2 when I build for 15.4?

                                                                              • fphhotchips 1 year ago
                                                                                The third party display thing is dead on.

                                                                                I have a $2000 AUD LG monitor that Mac OS just occasionally decides to overdrive (or something) and cause instant but temporary burn in. I'm not the only one - you can find others on Reddit.

                                                                                • askonomm 1 year ago
                                                                                  Funny, I have the same feelings about Linux. So many bugs and glitches that it really feels like nobody actually tests anything. And Windows, while I don't remember any weird glitches, just has so many ads that it makes me feel like I'm browsing some sort of yellow newspaper. Almost every update of Windows brings with it new installed apps like Candy Crush or Amazon Prime Video that I never opted into.
                                                                                  • culopatin 1 year ago
                                                                                    Linux is that home made thing that is all function over form, you’re proud of but any time a guest wants to use it you have to be there to make it work, and it’s pretty ugly. Windows is the tacky plasticky thing you bought at Walmart/Amazon. It works, but you’re not putting it out to show anyone. It’s a cheap TV. Apple is the nice expensive thing you got from a design magazine but sometimes you wish they had thought of function over design.
                                                                                    • askonomm 1 year ago
                                                                                      The solution then is to use all three interchangeably, like me. You hate them all, but since the hate is spread among all three it is more manageable.
                                                                                      • kjkjadksj 1 year ago
                                                                                        Mac os is literally a gui on a turnkey linux distro. Under the hood its very comfortable.
                                                                                    • valevino 1 year ago
                                                                                      Some people think that I am crazy when I said that I would prefer to use Linux instead of the MacOS in a MacBook if this was an option for me. I constantly have network issues and UI issues that I can just recover after reboot the system. But the big problem is the MacOS experience, I really hate it.
                                                                                      • hmottestad 1 year ago
                                                                                        What MacBook do you have that you can't run Linux on it?
                                                                                    • vardump 1 year ago
                                                                                      Not saying you're wrong, but what else is there that just works and is usable instantly when you open the lid?

                                                                                      While my work Windows laptop might be faster, it's certainly not the one I'm going to pick in a pinch or when I want to travel with just one laptop.

                                                                                      The best mobile configuration I know right now is a Macbook Pro + Parallels. Even with all of its deficiencies.

                                                                                      Are there any good Linux laptops with similar experience as Macbooks when it comes to power management and time from lid opening to usable state?

                                                                                      • hmottestad 1 year ago
                                                                                        You could always install Linux on your Macbook Pro. Personally I prefer MacOS though.
                                                                                        • dimask 1 year ago
                                                                                          Not so simple for apple silicon.
                                                                                          • kjkjadksj 1 year ago
                                                                                            Why? Macos is already a unix os.
                                                                                        • nottorp 1 year ago
                                                                                          That's a definite it depends.

                                                                                          Macs are finnicky with hardware (but hdmi sucks by definition, they think you bought the cable and monitor to pirate movies and not to do some work).

                                                                                          However the GUI actually works and if you spend a week on windows 10+ you'll remember why people buy Mac OS.

                                                                                          Personally I have a Mac for stuff that requires a GUI and a headless linux box that I ssh into. And I switched to Macs from ... Linux on the desktop.

                                                                                          Edit: docker is shit because they just install a Linux VM and run their Linux stuff in there. Same on Windows I guess.

                                                                                          • addicted 1 year ago
                                                                                            Windows 10 (can’t speak for 11…I haven’t upgraded) with a lot of the animations etc turned off is a far superior developer experience than macOS.

                                                                                            macOS is just so clunky. It tried to be so smooth all the time but just ends up being annoying.

                                                                                            • nottorp 1 year ago
                                                                                              I just set up a windows box for some development last week. Spent 2-3 hours per day on it (on work not setup).

                                                                                              So far I haven't managed to turn off the firewall scare popups, I did manage to remove that crap in the task bar that pops up the weather and selected news covering half the screen if you hover in the wrong place, I may or may not have turned off the OneDrive upsell, and I also got a full screen message to upgrade to 11 for free when booting once.

                                                                                              Great user experience overall. And don't tell me I can spend another week to turn those off, is Microsoft paying for that wasted time?

                                                                                          • raspasov 1 year ago
                                                                                            As of recently, Docker on MacOS has improved and AFAICT the performance penalty is gone.

                                                                                            Is the problematic corporate Mac an M-series Mac or Intel?

                                                                                            M-series have been great in my experience. I did used to get random full system crashes on Intel Macs which haven't happened in a few years on M1/M2.

                                                                                            • avarun 1 year ago
                                                                                              I mean the performance penalty is just inherent to how Docker on Mac works. Instead of being a container like on Linux, it’s a virtual machine, which will necessarily be slower.
                                                                                              • vbezhenar 1 year ago
                                                                                                The difference is absolutely marginal. The main slowdown sources is mounting huge volumes from the host, that's definitely works better with Linux. And emulating x86_64, if your container does not have arm64 build. But if you don't need it, I'd argue that M1 performance will yield faster containers compared to average Intel laptop.
                                                                                              • papruapap 1 year ago
                                                                                                Docker Desktop still sucks at least on my corp mac.
                                                                                                • bzzzt 1 year ago
                                                                                                  I'd recommend you try OrbStack.
                                                                                              • dangus 1 year ago
                                                                                                And which commercial OS do you think is better? Windows?

                                                                                                https://stackoverflow.com/questions/66408996/python-not-foun...

                                                                                                > using a third party second display

                                                                                                Has always worked fine for me

                                                                                                > Docker sucks

                                                                                                This is Apple’s fault how? It also sucks on Windows.

                                                                                                > posix compatibility is technically there but isn’t really useful

                                                                                                What does this mean exactly? Can you find an example where it’s not useful? In my experience most of the command line applications I would want on Linux are easily installable via Brew and I can choose all the same shell environments as Linux/Unix.

                                                                                                > The thing randomly loses network and only rebooting fixes it.

                                                                                                On your machine. Not my experience with any Mac I’ve owned. That isn’t expected or common behavior.

                                                                                                > I reboot my corporate Mac more often

                                                                                                I’m going to guess this is because your IT department sucks. I never reboot except for OS updates.

                                                                                                • bowsamic 1 year ago
                                                                                                  It's not a psyop, people are just having different experiences to you. I've had endless problems on Windows and Linux machines, and never had a serious or even annoying issue on a mac
                                                                                                  • weikju 1 year ago
                                                                                                    Alas the corporate bloat wars ruins many a persons experience of macOS
                                                                                                    • piyush_soni 1 year ago
                                                                                                      Completely agree. Have been using a MBP for almost three years now at work (after using Windows machines for a couple of decades), and I can see how laughable many of the design decisions in macOS are (though I highly doubt they were deliberate 'decisions' at all), and I still fail to understand why people use them over Windows or Linux (sure, great hardware, mostly). It's probably fine as a consumer device, but for developers/power users the UI/UX is just bad. Finder, the built-in File Manager is an abomination of a software. It's like someone paid them to deliberately write a bad quality application.
                                                                                                      • TheOtherHobbes 1 year ago
                                                                                                        Finder has always been like that. There have been some updates, but the core features of the UI have barely changed since 10.1.

                                                                                                        I'm finding this with software everywhere. Products keep doing the same old stupid shit they did when they were first released. "Refinements" are poorly-designed cruft.

                                                                                                        Is there anyone in charge of the OS X experience? There seems to be a lot of resume development - features that can be illustrated with smiling people in a video but don't really work all that well - and not so much interest in the core UX.

                                                                                                        I still find it better than Windows, but the gap between what it could be and what it is keeps growing.

                                                                                                        • pacifika 1 year ago
                                                                                                          What do you not like about finder?
                                                                                                          • nerdix 1 year ago
                                                                                                            Enter to rename rather than open is one of the dumbest UX decisions ever made in a file manager. And then doubling down by not allowing any key remaps at all so you're stuck with it.
                                                                                                            • piyush_soni 1 year ago
                                                                                                              Oh ... Where to begin. I can write an essay on it, but just to name a few:

                                                                                                              1. There's a button on my M3 Mac keyboard that says 'delete'. It deletes stuff everywhere else, but welcome to Finder, this simple button doesn't delete a file or a folder. They thought giving it a two/three keys combination was a better idea.

                                                                                                              2. Similarly, they thought you rename file/folders more often in a day than you open them. Why else would they make you press two keys to open one, and the most common single button in the world to open files (Enter/return) to rename one instead?

                                                                                                              3. No 'Cut' (I know the alternatives). One might find it surprising but there are fans that defend even this move - they say it's because this is more "intuitive". You only copy everything first and only at the time of pasting you decide whether you want to move it or copy it. I say, if that's really the case, why does every other app and Editor (including the ones made by Apple) have a Cut option? Why don't we always follow this more intuitive method of "copying" first and then pressing the Option button while pasting. Let's remove Cut from everything and see how intuitive people find it.

                                                                                                              4. By default, the Finder doesn't even tell you where you are. That's a basic requirement from a File Manager. Sure, fiddle with the settings and at some place you'll find an option to kind of enable that.

                                                                                                              5. No option to quickly create a text/other file in a given folder. If you've struggled enough and enabled the view where you're able to see where you are at the moment, there's a _chance_ you'd also see that from that view you can actually go to Terminal directly in that folder. Go there, and type `touch <filename>` to create a file in that folder.

                                                                                                              6. You got a full path to go to somewhere on the disk. You quickly open Finder. Oh, the default view doesn't even have a place to paste it and hit Enter. Who could have thought to hide it? Same problem with the native 'File Open' dialog that's used by all the other apps on the system. Even if you have the full file path, unless you go to settings you won't find a way to go to that file directly.

                                                                                                              7. No easy (if at all) way to persistently map a network drive that automatically remaps when the network drive is available. You have to keep connecting to the SMB server again and again.

                                                                                                              8. Side bar folder shortcuts get removed when the folder is deleted and recreated for any reason. You have to recreate them. Not sure who made all these decisions or if they were even thought about.

                                                                                                              9. No straight way to even 'Refresh' the files in a folder. Try going out and in, closing and reopening Finder and just 'hope' that it will update and show the newly created files or changed file properties outside. Many times it just doesn't.

                                                                                                              10. 'Get Info' allows you to also 'Set' (a lot of) Info. This is UX 101. They could have just named it `Properties` instead.

                                                                                                              11. Hell, you can't even maximize this app window by double clicking on the Title bar, unlike for example another Apple made app 'App Store'. No consistency.

                                                                                                              12. In List view there's no padding, I can't even find a place where I can right click and paste a previously copied file in the 'current folder', without it hitting a subfolder and pasting the files into that instead (assuming the folder has many folders inside). I'm surprised no one found it in internal user testing.

                                                                                                              These are just off top of my head, I'm sure I can find more if I spend some time. There might be involved solutions to these, but there's no way we can call this an 'intuitive' interface. And this is just one application in the whole Operation System.

                                                                                                            • kruxigt 1 year ago
                                                                                                              [dead]
                                                                                                              • darby_eight 1 year ago
                                                                                                                [dead]
                                                                                                              • lenkite 1 year ago
                                                                                                                I only started using macOS a decade ago. OSX was good in the past - smooth, clean, minimal-reboots and lightning fast. It has progressively become worse and worse over time in most aspects with some marginal improvements in other aspects.

                                                                                                                The hardware definitely keeps getting better and yet the software keeps getting worse. sigh.

                                                                                                                I mean they have even screwed up a nice app like iBooks. I used to use it for reading ePubs all the time, but now I dread opening up one. Lags like crazy. And so many crashes and reboots needed. Keep submitting crash reports but fairly certain that no-one ever reads them.

                                                                                                                Yes, remarkably today - the Windows desktop needs less reboots than macOS today. Can anecdotally confirm this with 2 windows PC's, 3 windows laptops and 3 Macbooks in the family.

                                                                                                                • amval 1 year ago
                                                                                                                  Absolutely agree. We changed on my team to primarily use Macbooks. Originally just to make easier testing on Safari. Later, just because the hardware is pretty nice.

                                                                                                                  It has been a pretty frustrating experience at times. Most of the time is _fine_, but the problems after updates, Docker bugs, certain libraries that we cannot install..

                                                                                                                  On the other hand, it was never perfect with Linux either. But that was expected. And I can say that macOS does not deserbe the reputation it has.

                                                                                                                  Overall, kind of a mixed bag. There are some very nice aspects to both he hardware and software, but some that are jarring and make me thing "this is not really meant for professional users". Like the atrocious window management (that admittedly can bve fixed with a couple free applicaitons).

                                                                                                                  • carstenhag 1 year ago
                                                                                                                    Effectively, software/hardware is hard and you will have issues in some way with all platforms.
                                                                                                                    • xcv123 1 year ago
                                                                                                                      Sounds like your Mac is broken. Hardware fault. I've been using multiple Macs daily with a third party 4k display, Docker, and stable network connection for years. No issues with any of that. Never needs rebooting aside from installing OS updates.
                                                                                                                    • devsda 1 year ago
                                                                                                                      I have two emails in my work Inbox in this order.

                                                                                                                      One that says don't update mac os to avoid breaking Java. Another that essentially says upgrade macos to latest version within x days else the issue will be escalated.

                                                                                                                      It is going to be quite a hassle for IT teams across companies to deal with this problem.

                                                                                                                      • KingMob 1 year ago
                                                                                                                        Reminds me of this exchange from the bank robbery scene in Raising Arizona:

                                                                                                                                As Gale and Evelle bang in through the door. Evelle holds a 
                                                                                                                         shotgun; Gale holds a shotgun in one hand and Nathan Jr. in 
                                                                                                                         his car seat in the other.
                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                            GALE
                                                                                                                          All right you hayseeds, it's a stick-
                                                                                                                          up! Everbody freeze! Everbody down 
                                                                                                                          on the ground!
                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                         Everyone freezes, staring at Gale and Evelle. An Old Hayseed 
                                                                                                                         with his hands in the air speaks up:
                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                            HAYSEED
                                                                                                                          Well which is it young fella? You 
                                                                                                                          want I should freeze or get down on 
                                                                                                                          the ground? Mean to say, iffen I 
                                                                                                                          freeze, I can't rightly drop. And 
                                                                                                                          iffen I drop, I'm a gonna be in 
                                                                                                                          motion. Ya see -
                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                            GALE
                                                                                                                          SHUTUP!
                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                         Promptly:
                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                            HAYSEED
                                                                                                                          Yessir.
                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                            GALE
                                                                                                                          Everone down on the ground!
                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                            EVELLE
                                                                                                                          Y'all can just forget that part about 
                                                                                                                          freezin'.
                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                            GALE
                                                                                                                          That is until they get down there.
                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                            EVELLE
                                                                                                                          Y'all hear that?
                                                                                                                      • Mashimo 1 year ago
                                                                                                                        > The problem does not affect most typical Mac users, as Java was deprecated for the Mac back in 2012.

                                                                                                                        Haha, this article is quite something :D

                                                                                                                        The Java Applet was removed from the safari browser. That is unrelated to java apps running on the desktop.

                                                                                                                        • karolist 1 year ago
                                                                                                                          > As a normal part of the just-in-time compile and execute cycle, processes running on macOS may access memory in protected memory regions. Prior to the macOS 14.4 update, in certain circumstances, the macOS kernel would respond to these protected memory accesses by sending a signal, SIGBUS or SIGSEGV, to the process.

                                                                                                                          > With macOS 14.4, when a thread is operating in the write mode, if a memory access to a protected memory region is attempted, macOS will send the signal SIGKILL instead.

                                                                                                                          What is bizarre to me is that Oracle relied on receiving SIGSEGV as normal mode of operation. That should have been a hint where things are going, no?

                                                                                                                          • vardump 1 year ago
                                                                                                                            That's actually a pretty normal way to do things. Optimization for JITting, let the CPU hardware to do the heavy lifting instead of putting conditional jumps everywhere.

                                                                                                                            It's useful for other things as well. I've used SIGSEGV to emulate hardware interrupts. Normal execution wouldn't trap and there's no need for tests + branches (= normally no slowdown), but when an interrupt occurs a specific often accessed page is marked unreadable.

                                                                                                                            • mort96 1 year ago
                                                                                                                              Which other JITs behave like this? AFAIK neither V8 nor Spidermonkey nor LuaJIT rely on segfaults as a normal part of their operation?
                                                                                                                              • quotemstr 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                Android ART uses this mode of operation too. There's absolutely nothing wrong with relying on SIGSEGV and other synchronous signals in this manner and POSIX should make it easier and safer instead of trying to pretend signals are bad and useless.
                                                                                                                                • silon42 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                  Personally I'd expect this would affect the GC more than the JIT. But I'm not surprised that the JVM uses every trick for speed.
                                                                                                                                • fransje26 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                  That you can doesn't necessarily mean that you should.

                                                                                                                                  https://xkcd.com/1172/

                                                                                                                                • Vogtinator 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                  It's documented and part of the interface for POSIX:

                                                                                                                                  > Write attempts to memory that was mapped without write access, or any access to > memory mapped PROT_NONE, shall result in a SIGSEGV signal. > > References to unmapped addresses shall result in a SIGSEGV signal.

                                                                                                                                  How a SIGSEGV can be handled by the program to continue execution normally need some OS specific code. For Linux there's also userfaultfd to suit this need better.

                                                                                                                                  • wahern 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                    > How a SIGSEGV can be handled by the program to continue execution normally need some OS specific code

                                                                                                                                    A JVM's use of SIGSEGV might include platform-dependent details for recovery. But for simple application usages (e.g. eliding inlined bounds checks in a performance critical loop operating on an array) longjmp can suffice for recovery. POSIX very carefully defines async-safety and longjmp to permit jumping out of a signal handler and resuming normal execution, provided certain constraints are met, such as that the signal did not interrupt a non-async-signal-safe function.

                                                                                                                                    • zozbot234 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                      > ...such as that the signal did not interrupt a non-async-signal-safe function.

                                                                                                                                      So you have to disable signals prior to doing anything "non-async-signal-safe" and re-enable them thereafter? That's a pretty big "but"...

                                                                                                                                  • cataphract 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                    > What is bizarre to me is that Oracle relied on receiving SIGSEGV as normal mode of operation. That should have been a hint where things are going, no?

                                                                                                                                    Not bizarre at all, this how the runtime has always operated, as anyone one who's ever attached a debugger to a Java process knows. The SIGSEGV handler is also responsible to handling NullPointerExceptions IIRC.

                                                                                                                                    • fniephaus 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                      Correct:

                                                                                                                                      > ... the JVM can intercept the resulting SIGSEGV ("Signal: Segmentation Fault"), look at the return address for that signal, and figure out where that access was made in the generated code. Once it figures that bit out, it can then know where to dispatch the control to handle this case — in most cases, throwing NullPointerException or branching somewhere.

                                                                                                                                      https://shipilev.net/jvm/anatomy-quarks/25-implicit-null-che...

                                                                                                                                    • 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                      • sp1rit 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                        >> As a normal part of the just-in-time compile and execute cycle

                                                                                                                                        This means a workaround is running java with -Djava.compiler=NONE, no?

                                                                                                                                        • przemelek 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                          I was thinking more about -Xint, or in Docker, or x86 JVM, but my guess is that somebody already tested it ;-) Other thing is that one of developers in my team who is on M1 and 14.4 is able to run Java app, so...
                                                                                                                                          • PhilipRoman 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                            A better choice would be -Xrs which keeps optimizations enabled, but disables use of SEGV.
                                                                                                                                            • zozbot234 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                              This disables use of all signal handlers, which means Java apps will also e.g. fail to quit cleanly in response to issuing SIGQUIT, or hitting ^C at the terminal. Better than "no workaround whatsoever" but far from ideal!
                                                                                                                                          • josefx 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                            I think it is used to avoid doing null checks on every pointer access.
                                                                                                                                            • arghwhat 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                              Despite what the other commenters are saying, it is bizarre.

                                                                                                                                              1. There is very little you can safely do in a signal handler. For a threaded application, that pretty much boils entirely down to setting a bit and leaving it at that. If they did anything more, the behavior is undefined.

                                                                                                                                              2. The memory state that a program receiving a SIGSEGV in is often undefined/garbage, and attempting to execute further at this point is at best unsafe, at worst trampling on state further, continuing execution in a broken state and destroying all evidence that would be useful for debugging - whereas a coredump preserves the state at the time the issue occurs.

                                                                                                                                              There are cases where you need to catch SIGBUS, such as if an anonymous file has been truncated after you mmap'ed it.

                                                                                                                                              • fweimer 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                The signal comes from a safe fetch, which is just a read that allows ignoring the fault as if it never happened. Such a signal is deliver synchronously, so the usual restrictions for asynchronous signal handlers do not apply.

                                                                                                                                                The code in question takes into account that the value read might be garbage. See the big comment here: https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/commit/29397d29baac3b29083b1b...

                                                                                                                                                On current CPUs and operating systems, this is not an optimization, so the code was removed earlier this year: https://bugs.openjdk.org/browse/JDK-8320317

                                                                                                                                                • arghwhat 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                  The "safe fetch" code relies on a signal handler (either here https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/blob/48717d63cc58f693f0917e61... or here https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/blob/3c70f26b2f3fa9bc143e2506...), which is considered asynchronous delivery (i.e., delivered mid-execution, see `man 7 signal`) - which is why the `async-signal-safe` manpage simply states that it is functions that can safely be called within a signal handler.

                                                                                                                                                  This is opposed to calling `sigwait` or similar to actively suspend and wait for a signal, which is not possible to do here.

                                                                                                                                                  Granted, it may be that the stars align and their implementation works in practice, but that does not make it any less bizarre.

                                                                                                                                                • PhilipRoman 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                  >There is very little you can safely do in a signal handler

                                                                                                                                                  You can actually do pretty much anything you want, it's just the C library that uses a lot of global state and internal memory allocations, which messes things up. The core syscall API and any reentrant code you write yourself are not affected.

                                                                                                                                                  >The memory state that a program receiving a SIGSEGV in is often undefined/garbage

                                                                                                                                                  That may be true for arbitrary segfaults caused by bugs, but the JIT has 100% control over what instructions to emit, it is not restricted by ABIs or platform-specific issues, so there is no problem to use SEGV as a signaling mechanism.

                                                                                                                                                  • zozbot234 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                    You can "do pretty much anything you want" as long as you carefully avoid doing anything non thread-safe (even indirectly) in both the main app and the handler itself? How reassuring!
                                                                                                                                              • pocketarc 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                I'm on 14.4 and using Jetbrain's IDE. So -this- is the reason my IDE randomly crashes. I'd been chalking it up to 14.4 but didn't have any specifics.

                                                                                                                                                It's mostly fine, though. The crashes are rare, and since everything auto-saves, you're not really losing anything. It's just an "oh, okay." moment.

                                                                                                                                                Obviously it'll be good when it's fixed, but on my personal list of impactful bugs, this doesn't crack the top 10.

                                                                                                                                                • mikiobraun 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                  Yeah, I've been hearing about that, too. And yeah, it's probably a nuisance. I'm wondering how this extends to running Java inside docker... If you're a dev and you run a lot of Java code locally during development and testing, this would bea real nuisance... .
                                                                                                                                                • vbezhenar 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                  • riffraff 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                    Why does this affect only Java? It seems any jit should be affected, and surely people would notice.
                                                                                                                                                    • vbezhenar 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                      Maybe other JIT environments do not rely on SIGSEGV.
                                                                                                                                                      • 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                    • self_awareness 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                      I find this hard to accept. Doesn't Apple do pre-release testing of their updates? How the release process looks like?

                                                                                                                                                      News like these are the major reason why I apply updates only after long periods of waiting if anything blows up for others. Why companies use their userbase as testers?

                                                                                                                                                      • qwertimus 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                        Strangely, the issue wasn't present in pre-release builds. I agree though, Apple's internal testing before final release should have picked this up.
                                                                                                                                                        • angulardragon03 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                          There is some sample C code to test with, and the issue is actually in the pre-releases. It’s just not in the first couple.
                                                                                                                                                        • t-sauer 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                          > News like these are the major reason why I apply updates only after long periods of waiting if anything blows up for others.

                                                                                                                                                          But then you are accepting that you are running an exploitable OS since you are lacking the latest security fixes. Not sure if that‘s an acceptable tradeoff.

                                                                                                                                                          • tchbnl 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                            Apple doesn't EOL the last OS version when the latest comes out. I think they mean they wait a few months to make sure all the issues have been worked out.
                                                                                                                                                            • t-sauer 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                              But that only works if you stick to old majors. At this point Sonoma is out for almost 6 months, so even if you waited a few months to upgrade to Sonoma you are out of luck now. You are either stuck on 14.3 without security fixes or you upgrade to 14.4.
                                                                                                                                                          • jbverschoor 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                            [flagged]
                                                                                                                                                            • agsnu 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                              FTFA:

                                                                                                                                                              > The issue was not present in the early access releases for macOS 14.4, so it was discovered only after Apple released the update.

                                                                                                                                                              There were some security fixes that were marked as under active exploitation in macOS 14.4, so my money is on those landing very steep close to the release date and this being fallout from that.

                                                                                                                                                              • jbverschoor 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                FTBR:

                                                                                                                                                                "It is also successful on the previous versions of Sonoma" (no mention of EA)

                                                                                                                                                                "It could not be reproduced on 23-ea+13, 22+36-2370" (EA versions of Java)

                                                                                                                                                                • jbverschoor 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                  Please read the actual bugreport instead of an article written my Oracle's PM who really does not want the crap on his account.
                                                                                                                                                                • bingbingbing777 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                  So I can release breaking changes to my API and expect consumers (who are software suppliers themselves) and it's their fault for not instantly updating their code? How is this not Apple when they were the ones that broke it?
                                                                                                                                                                  • fractalb 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                    Apple should not be at fault! As simple as that.
                                                                                                                                                                  • dboreham 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                    Definitely Apple.
                                                                                                                                                                    • daghamm 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                      Did you read Oracles post?

                                                                                                                                                                      "The issue was not present in the early access releases for macOS 14.4, so it was discovered only after Apple released the update."

                                                                                                                                                                      JVM generates code on the fly, which normal applications are not allowed to do. So java by definition receives special treatment from the OS, which OSX seem to have broken now.

                                                                                                                                                                      • self_awareness 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                        It's not that Java has a special treatment, but all applications who "request it" are allowed (for example also JavaScript engines in browsers).

                                                                                                                                                                        https://developer.apple.com/documentation/bundleresources/en...

                                                                                                                                                                        • grodriguez100 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                          There is no “special treatment for Java”. This is a well known technique that has been used for ages in the implementation of JITs. The behavior it relies on is specified by POSIX.
                                                                                                                                                                          • jbverschoor 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                            I did and also the bugreport.

                                                                                                                                                                            https://bugs.java.com/bugdatabase/view_bug?bug_id=8327860

                                                                                                                                                                            It says that "It is also successful on the previous versions of Sonoma", no mention of EA.

                                                                                                                                                                            In the bug report it says it's actually not reproducable with an eary access version of Java "It could not be reproduced on 23-ea+13, 22+36-2370"

                                                                                                                                                                            TBF I'd rather not take Oracle's Product Managment's word for granted.

                                                                                                                                                                      • yedpodtrzitko 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                        • pdimitar 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                          So I ranted about macOS a month ago here -- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39369788 -- and in the meantime my Alacritty and iTerm2 began doing cold start up for 2-3 seconds now (granted they get cached so the cold start delay does not happen more than two or three times a day) and I am just left scratching my head and wondering WTF are the macOS devs thinking.

                                                                                                                                                                          As other posters said: macOS might have had an edge over Windows and Linux before but that's no longer the case for a few years now. I'll definitely be looking for ways to use 5K display with my Linux laptop and will likely make a full transition to Linux in the next year or two.

                                                                                                                                                                          Macs have amazing displays. So I'll use mine as thin clients I suppose. My eyes are happier with an Apple display so I'll use them for that alone.

                                                                                                                                                                          Apple can still turn this around but their bogus security claims that serve mostly to annoy devs is them shooting themselves in the foot and making themselves a very uncomfortable bed to sleep in just some very short years in the future. Hope somebody at HQ understands that and is able to see the problem before too many people leave.

                                                                                                                                                                          • Symbiote 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                            Maybe the Oracle blog post [1] would be a better link than the Apple Insider article, which says "The problem does not affect most typical Mac users, as Java was deprecated for the Mac back in 2012."

                                                                                                                                                                            [1] https://blogs.oracle.com/java/post/java-on-macos-14-4

                                                                                                                                                                            • mikiobraun 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                              Yeah, but all developers who are working with Java or JVM related languages or using JVM based tools like jetbrain's IDEs are affected. That's not "typical" but still many people.
                                                                                                                                                                              • cataphract 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                I think they're confusing the Java plugin for websites with the normal Java runtime.
                                                                                                                                                                                • Symbiote 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                  Exactly. We shouldn't promote such poor quality journalism.
                                                                                                                                                                                  • usrusr 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                    Poor quality, yes, but journalism on blog.oracle.com?
                                                                                                                                                                                • mort96 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                  I can't find that quote in your link. I can't find any mention of the word "deprecated" or "2012". Did you send the wrong link?
                                                                                                                                                                                  • Symbiote 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                    My quote is from the 5th paragraph of the posted article.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I suggest the Oracle blog as an alternative.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I thought it was clear, but I have replaced the "this" in my comment anyway.

                                                                                                                                                                                    • mort96 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                      Aha, sorry, I totally misunderstood the meaning of your comment.

                                                                                                                                                                                      In that case, I 100% agree with you, the Oracle article seems much better than the Apple Insider article.

                                                                                                                                                                                • Karupan 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                  So this will break IDEs and anything that uses the JVM natively on macOS. But if I’m reading the bug report right, should leave dockerized JVM services intact?

                                                                                                                                                                                  This is why most enterprise workplace tech teams don’t roll out any OS level updates immediately. Regardless of whether they are on windows or macOS. Also a good idea to disable automatic updates on all devices that you use daily.

                                                                                                                                                                                  • mikiobraun 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                    Yeah, I was also wondering what happens to JVM within docker. I don't really know enough about how deep the virtualization goes... . On the other hand, I'd find it difficult if CPU level signal handling would be emulated within MacOS to fit what Linux expects to happen...
                                                                                                                                                                                    • aden1ne 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                      Docker on MacOS runs through a Linux VM. Native containerization on MacOS is so badly supported many container runtimes don't even try. E.g. Podman on MacOS also runs through a Linux VM.
                                                                                                                                                                                  • mihau 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                    Does Apple consider this to be a serious issue? Does anyone know if Apple plans to release a fix soon, perhaps in version 14.4.1?
                                                                                                                                                                                    • grodriguez100 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                      “The problem does not affect most typical Mac users, as Java was deprecated for the Mac back in 2012.”

                                                                                                                                                                                      This is misleading. What was deprecated was the browser Java plug-in distributed by Apple. That’s very different from “deprecating Java”.

                                                                                                                                                                                      • usrusr 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                        Didn't they have their own JVM distribution back in the Sun days? The sarcastic take would be on MacOS, third party software is deprecated, period.
                                                                                                                                                                                        • grodriguez100 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                          Yes, Apple had their own Java runtime in the past, but this was discontinued. I think Mojave (10.14) was the first version without official Java support from Apple.
                                                                                                                                                                                      • rsaddey 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                        Has anyone here actually experienced the SIGKILL? M1 Pro Max on 14.4 for ten days now, using Eclipse & Tomcat & whatever Java all the time, and still waiting for it to happen...
                                                                                                                                                                                        • rsaddey 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                          And yes, I did just now. I had to work for 10 hours to let Eclipse crash...
                                                                                                                                                                                        • kaycey2022 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                          Sonoma has been trash so far. I faced an issue where they changed they way linking is done in the new Xcode version and that broke builds for erlang. This is so bad that programs that run on versions of OTP prior to 25 don’t work on the m1 macs anymore. At least last time I checked. Yes, this affects Xcode primarily but still it makes one think what the hell is going on over there.

                                                                                                                                                                                          They basically bamboozled us with fancy wallpapers and gave us this immensely substandard software.

                                                                                                                                                                                          • rsaddey 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                            Has anyone as yet designed a work-around? My thought is to (at least partially) avoid JIT compiliations. This will of course greatly reduce performance (50 times slower?). But with GUI programs, such as Eclipse, it will hopefully hardly be noticeable.
                                                                                                                                                                                            • dangus 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                              This is affecting me on Minecraft Java Edition.
                                                                                                                                                                                              • aardvark179 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                This is obviously a problem, but it does appear to be an intermittent one, and not easy to provoke for me. I upgraded last week, and have seen precisely one unexpected exit of a JVM process, and I think that memory analysis toolkit running out of memory, and I have been running a lot of stuff.
                                                                                                                                                                                                • baxuz 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Good thing that the changelog for the 3gb update only mentions emoji and podcasts:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  macOS Sonoma 14.4 introduces new emoji as well as other features, bug fixes and security updates for your Mac.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Emoji

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • New mushroom, phoenix, lime, broken chain and shaking heads emoji are now available in emoji keyboard • 18 people and body emoji support facing the opposite direction

                                                                                                                                                                                                  This update also includes the following improvements and bug fixes:

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Podcasts Episode text can be read in full, searched for a word or phrase, clicked to play from a specific point, and used with accessibility features such as Text Size, Increase Contrast and VoiceOver • Safari Favourites Bar adds an option to show only icons for websites

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • kernal 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                    According to the bug tracker changing it from a WRITE to an EXEC avoids the SIGKILL issue.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • t-writescode 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm not comfortable upgrading my macbook to test this; but, if you migrate your java build pipeline to use a docker container for the jdk, do you think it might not run into this problem?
                                                                                                                                                                                                      • KingOfLechia 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Windows 10 IoT Enterprise LTSC doesn't have this problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                                        • ZephyrOhm 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Java? Who's still running Java on their PCs? Wild.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          • chrismsimpson 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                            lol, Java has been broken for some time and I’m convinced Apple do this intentionally
                                                                                                                                                                                                            • classified 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                              I won't "upgrade" to Sonoma at all. I'm done with Apple shitting all over my apps and data.
                                                                                                                                                                                                              • not_me_ever 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Broken software might crash -- no news move on
                                                                                                                                                                                                                • ecmascript 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Imagine all devs working on macs, myself included. If I were to update and I can't run java, I can't work so this is pretty serious.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • dickersnoodle 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Oh, no. Anyway...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • croes 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "It just works" ... not
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • neonsunset 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        [flagged]
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • lynguist 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Use Rider and you will.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          How do you develop .NET?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • neonsunset 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Haha, touché!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            AFAIK JB are quite conservative when it comes to bumping up JVM (or .NET for that matter) versions for their tooling. Rider aside, I do most input in VS Code and occasionally Visual Studio (when not using laptop) because it has really nice extension Disasmo which helps a lot to iterate on methods quickly for low-level optimization.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • 23ioj2oij23 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          MacOS is the worst OS on planet. I lost all my data after MacOS updated to 14.x from 13.x, because the laptop stopped starting after update and apple employees have to factory reset the entire system. And unlike any other laptop, where you can just remove hard drive and save your data, this is not possible on Apple devices, because HDD cannot be removed... Also since 14.x in on my laptop, it restarts EVERY SINGLE DAY. I also have a lot of other issues, but I will not write a book here. This was the last time I bought something from Apple.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • kjkjadksj 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Apple has a great backup tool called Time Machine that would have had you whistling a different tune if it were used before your system failure (which can happen with any system fwiw).