Did grave robbers plunder battlefields?

75 points by LastNevadan 1 year ago | 66 comments
  • seanhunter 1 year ago
    Anyone who's played enough dwarf fortress knows that goblinite[1] is one of the most important sources of metals.

    [1] https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Goblinite

    • 1 year ago
    • Borrible 1 year ago
      And then I thought, we've known for some time that dead men make good fertilizer.

      https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/200th-a...

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterloo_Soldier

      • gdcbe 1 year ago
        In Belgium we (not me) used the corpses from the famous waterloo battle to refine sugar.
        • dmurray 1 year ago
          Yes indeed. Science.org recently published an interesting interview [0] on exactly that, that even made the HN front page.

          [0] https://www.science.org/content/article/now-we-know-where-de...

          • dweekly 1 year ago
            The use of bone char to filter cane sugar is interesting -- but something that I'm finding puzzling is that the above linked article specifically says that the bone char was used for sugar beet processing, but many other online sources consistently state that bone char is never used for sugar beet processing, only sugar cane processing. Did it used to be used for sugar beet processing but techniques changed?
            • Borrible 1 year ago
              The deeper you plough this field, the more fruitful the findings. No dead end in sight. This may even take the cake. Dark and heavy Belgian cake. Cake of the dead, so to speak.
              • bnc319 1 year ago
                Can't tell if this is sarcastic or not but an entertaining example of everyone going straight to the comments (myself included). (for those who didn't see this is link is the same as the main post these comments are under).
              • CarRamrod 1 year ago
                The secret of Belgian chocolate, revealed
              • IIAOPSW 1 year ago
                The blood of the Martyrs shall water the meadows of...Belgium.

                Close enough.

                • eddd-ddde 1 year ago
                  Honestly I rather my body be used for something useful than wasting space in a box underground.
                  • 082349872349872 1 year ago
                    > we (not me)

                    of course not you flemish, it must've been those perfidous walloons, hoor

                • Borrible 1 year ago
                  I just remembered that the first time I read about this, I rummaged around for source material. There is a book from 1840 in which the processing of human bones from battlefields is described as productive and profitable. Carl T. von Natorp, "Ueber den Gebrauch und Werth der Knochendüngung", 1840 "On the use and value of bone fertilization"

                  There is a bad scan by google books of parts of the text written in German Fraktur, but on page 410 he's clearly talking about the English that started to collect bones from the battlefields to use as fertilizer in 1822.

                  https://books.google.de/books?id=PyRAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA410&lpg=P...

                  • ggm 1 year ago
                    ... in the modern era. It's a given that fabric and metals are high cost of production from raw inputs, and pre-mechanisation would be far too valuable to just leave in the fields. Post mechanisation the problem is logistics. (The factory war era pretty much begins with the Napoleonic war: Marc Brunel (Isembards father) made boot making machines and block making machines for the british war supply chain. You can see the blockworks in Portsmouth harbour and bits of the machines are in the science museum, London)

                    I think "battlefield pick-over" is not a busted trope. Logistics means you use the stuff to hand, be it 155mm shells you captured taking a Russian trench system, or arrows left over from a stupid french knight charge over muddy ground towards english archers.

                    The point here, is that a vaguely disgusting re-use of the consequences of war, is that dead bodies turn out to be valuable, not just the grave goods around them. You want phosphates for fertilizer enough that digging up bones to burn to make it, is worthwhile. You would think that the slaughter of cattle and sheep provided enough but a few thousand buried soldiers is a pretty good deposit.

                    In times past soldiers piss has been used to make gunpowder, dung was used in leathermaking. What's the difference here to using urine, and digging up dead mans bones?

                    • Ekaros 1 year ago
                      I remember hearing that there were so many mummies around from Egypt that they were used as fuel in some cases... Humans never have valued far enough removed dead...

                      And surely yes, if I were local peasant near battlefield I would go and pick through it after everyone is gone. Or at latest when most of the stink is gone... Metals at least had value.

                      • defrost 1 year ago
                        For a while in Europe it was popular to eat mummies . . .

                        The Gruesome History of Eating Corpses as Medicine

                        https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-gruesome-history-...

                        • Someone 1 year ago
                          > there were so many mummies around from Egypt that they were used as fuel in some cases

                          Likely, but it seems they aren’t 100% sure of that at the Encyclopædia Brittanica. https://www.britannica.com/list/7-surprising-uses-for-mummie...:

                          “It was claimed by author Mark Twain that mummies had been used as fuel for locomotives. In his 1869 travel book called The Innocents Abroad, Twain describes the first railroad in Egypt. Because of the lack of trees and the price of coal, Twain claims that the Egyptians used mummies instead. He wrote, “[The fuel used] for the locomotive is composed of mummies three thousand years old, purchased by the ton or by the graveyard for that purpose.””

                          Also, FTA: “we know the British imported mummies and bones from Egypt on an industrial scale”

                          • angiosperm 1 year ago
                            We know, anyway, that they used untold millions of cat mummies for locomotive fuel. In other news, Egyptians mummified millions of cats.
                            • worthless-trash 1 year ago
                              To use on the english trains ?
                            • stevekemp 1 year ago
                              Mummies were also used to make paint:

                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummy_brown

                              • ggm 1 year ago
                                I was told that by 1946 almost every French farmer from Normandy to the Ardennes had at least one Jerry Can.
                              • CarRamrod 1 year ago
                                >at the end of the day, what's the difference between a dead man's remains and a bucket of piss?

                                On long enough timescales there's no difference at all

                                • NegativeLatency 1 year ago
                                  What’s a block making machine? Or a block for that matter?
                                • oalae5niMiel7qu 1 year ago
                                  It goes further than that. If you find someone who's almost dead but not quite, you can steal that person's organs, netting you way more than metals, weapons, or anything else you're likely to find on a battlefield.
                                  • weinzierl 1 year ago
                                    "vaguely disgusting" has another dimension in the modern era. I read once that by contemporary standards human bodies are essentially hazardous waste and every graveyard is essentially a superfund site.
                                    • ggm 1 year ago
                                      Wouldn't that be the formaldehyde in embalming fluid? And mercury from amalgam fillings.
                                      • kombookcha 1 year ago
                                        Embalming is very rare in places like continental Europe, and large swathes of the non-western world has religious bans on embalming, so formaldehyde in graveyards is almost purely a problem in the anglosphere.
                                        • positr0n 1 year ago
                                          Also bioaccumulation of heavy metals.
                                          • hulitu 1 year ago
                                            Some claim is the preservative in food.
                                      • digging 1 year ago
                                        This is very cool actually! Human bodies take so many resources from the Earth to grow, the very least we can do is recycle what's left when we die. Body composting ("green burial") is an increasingly popular option today, but I wouldn't mind if my bones were used in manufacturing either. (Actually my biggest objection would be who's profiting off my bones. I've spent almost my whole life so far enriching billionaires, and it would be cool if that could end at my death.)

                                        I think what's most surprising to me is that I didn't realize battlefield mass graves were actually so common in the past. At this scale it makes sense, but I had an idea from antiquity studies that war dead were expected to be brought home for burial. (That could also be untrue of antiquity tbh; burial was always an incidental topic.)

                                        • carlosjobim 1 year ago
                                          Maybe part of the explanation is that there weren't as many soldiers in these battles as historical accounts say. We're well aware that official Roman numbers of the sizes of armies were hugely bloated compared to reality. The same might well be true of later battles.
                                          • digestivetires 1 year ago
                                            1800 is somewhat recent history (compared to year 1799 or -1).

                                            It is interesting that stuff like this gets forgotten in such short time frame and requires investigation/ discovery.

                                            It’s interesting to wonder, what common facts of today, will become mysteries for future historians.

                                            • mncharity 1 year ago
                                              Could history education usefully emphasize a theme of time-traveler surprise? - "You've traveled back in time, and find... wtf that's weird!"
                                            • ergonaught 1 year ago
                                              Soylent Green is people, indeed.
                                              • btbuildem 1 year ago
                                                Ah, the OG human resources. Into the bone crusher!
                                                • metachris 1 year ago
                                                  I mean, there were plenty of poor people, and there's free stuff, so...
                                                  • dhosek 1 year ago
                                                    If I might make a modest proposal…
                                                  • pizzafeelsright 1 year ago
                                                    If there's ever a plane crash I'm looking for cash and watches.
                                                    • ulnarkressty 1 year ago
                                                      You wouldn't be the first to think of this

                                                      https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/07/fl...

                                                      • ohwaitnvm 1 year ago
                                                        I couldn’t find the right combination of search terms to provide a citation, but I’ve heard stories of plane crashes where locals took the flight data recorder or other critical pieces of evidence from the scene before officials arrived. Rewards had to be announced and paid out to get people to bring back parts so that investigations could proceed.
                                                      • onlypassingthru 1 year ago
                                                        Don't forget to grab a garbage bag full of weed on your way out.[0]

                                                        [0]https://www.climbing.com/people/yosemite-dope-airplane-crash...

                                                        • devilbunny 1 year ago
                                                          I don't have a link, but a similar story happened on top of a mesa near Moab, Utah, in the 1970s. Local climbers already knew routes to the top and hiked out with whatever they could carry before the feds could fully clear it.
                                                          • dhosek 1 year ago
                                                            Just hope the bears don’t get to the cocaine first.
                                                          • 1 year ago
                                                          • highcountess 1 year ago
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                                                            • WanderPanda 1 year ago
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                                                              • boomboomsubban 1 year ago
                                                                No, the article discusses how it seems very probable there was mass grave robbing for sugar production. So the answer is "yes" or at least "probably."
                                                                • pinkmuffinere 1 year ago
                                                                  For anyone confused how grave robbing would contribute to sugar production:

                                                                  "In a new book, an international team of historians and archaeologists argues the bones were depleted by industrial-scale grave robbing. The introduction of phosphates for fertilizer and bone char as an ingredient in beet sugar processing at the beginning of the 19th century transformed bones into a hot commodity. Skyrocketing prices prompted raids on mass graves across Europe—and beyond."

                                                                  • 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 1 year ago
                                                                    To this day, most white sugar is made with animal bone char and therefore not vegan. Brown sugar is sometimes but not always vegan.
                                                                  • defrost 1 year ago
                                                                    It's a definite "Yes" as far as UK archaeologists and historians have agreed for some time now.

                                                                        In a new book, an international team of historians and archaeologists argues the bones were depleted by industrial-scale grave robbing. The introduction of phosphates for fertilizer and bone char as an ingredient in beet sugar processing at the beginning of the 19th century transformed bones into a hot commodity. Skyrocketing prices prompted raids on mass graves across Europe—and beyond.
                                                                    
                                                                    New book, old knowledge.

                                                                    IIRC contemporary documentation, from the 19th Century, related to exploiting bone fields has been shown on UK TV as part of Digging For Britain and other such shows in years past.

                                                                    • boomboomsubban 1 year ago
                                                                      >an international team of historians and archaeologists argues...

                                                                      They seem to agree it's "probably." Proof is hard.

                                                                  • bdjsiqoocwk 1 year ago
                                                                    Do you not get tired of the same comment over and over again?
                                                                    • alsetmusic 1 year ago
                                                                      Yes.

                                                                      Edit: whoops, commented while out to drinks. I screwed up.

                                                                    • gyudin 1 year ago
                                                                      Medieval recycling was dark lol
                                                                      • newprint 1 year ago
                                                                        Damn, this is dark.