New paintings found at Pompeii

178 points by janpot 1 year ago | 72 comments
  • natroniks 1 year ago
    When looking at frescoes I like to ask, why did the homeowner (r whomever made these decisions) choose these images/themes for this context? Not just the Trojan War generally, but these particular characters and relationship dynamics? Apollo and Cassandra; Paris and Helen; I think of them as 2 pairs of failed lovers. Failures not only because their romance didn't work out, but also because the fallout from their attempted relationship caused so much destruction. The Trojan Cycle is often thought of in terms of war, battles, death, destruction. But it really does involve a lot of romantic relationships (all of them doomed): Achilles and Patroclus, Achilles and Briseis, Helen and Paris, Apollo and Cassandra, Agamemnon and Clytemnestra, Menelaus and Helen... The thought provoking nature of frescoes in a dining room was intentional, as it's the type of source material that could be used to inspire conversation at a dinner party. Can't wait to learn more about this room
    • aleksiy123 1 year ago
      Just a thought but I wonder if its more like having movie posters on your wall. Like putting LoTR, or Solaris or Marvel or whatever.

      The elite would have been brought up on these stories and its a bit of signaling + just being a fan of the literature because thats what you like?

      • CobrastanJorji 1 year ago
        That's a good point. Someone seeing a Star Wars poster on your war might wonder why you're obsessed with stories about violent insurrections, but actually it's just because...wait, why did we put Star Wars posters in our rooms?
        • krapp 1 year ago
          >why did we put Star Wars posters in our rooms?

          A long time ago, Star Wars was actually fun, and we could unironically enjoy fun things.

        • 082349872349872 1 year ago
          I think it'd be more like:

          For Sale: POMPEII LAURELS Residential/Commercial property, suitable for owner occupancy, with tenants in the heart of idyllic Pompeii. The property has been in the hands of a prominent local family and its spacious gardens and tastefully appointed dining area are perfect for entertaining. Price upon request.

          Venalis; pretium ad petitionem?

          • zer00eyz 1 year ago
            This is a great take.

            I am a big fan of the Old Testament (bible). Mind you I am at best a "reformed catholic" and at worst an atheist and hedonist.

            But the Old Testament is great, for the very reason you're using here. It was the summer block buster of its time. Special effects: parting seas (a Hollywood classic), people turning to salt, city walls crumbling under the might of trumpets. So. Much. Sex. (The Old Testament is getting an nc-17 before we get out of the garden.) The power of god as "magic"....

            To your point, I would assume that being raised on "Troy" would give it a certain reverence. Out side religious texts do we still raise kids this way? I think of the reverent childhood stories and "thing one and thing two" spring to mind... Im not sure if I want that sort of wall art.

            • 082349872349872 1 year ago
              > "thing one and thing two" spring to mind...

              It is possible to say "would you like to come up and see my Theodor Geisel prints" with ulterior motives.

              Huckle Cat and Lowly Worm and the goat farmer (whatever his name was) were my reverent childhood stories, but I don't need them as wall art: when I found someplace that resembled Busytown, I moved here, so instead of putting them on my walls, all I need to do is go into town...

          • asimpletune 1 year ago
            Probably bc Romans believed they descended from people who were at the battle of Troy. In particular it was Aeneas whom they believed escaped the sacking of Troy and made it to Latina. Later his progeny founded Rome. Being connected with great myths, whether historically true or not was a big deal, so everyone wanted to be able to claim some connection to that big event.
            • beezlebroxxxxxx 1 year ago
              Brutus of Troy is the medieval British equivalent, and has other examples in the Renovatio imperii Romanorum phenomenon. Connecting oneself to history and myth have long been ways that various monarchies and dynasties across the Eurasian continent sought legitimacy and "publicized" their power.
              • krapp 1 year ago
                Also Snorri Sturluson recontextualized the Norse gods as descendants of Troy in the Prose Edda, because he was writing in the context of a post-Christianized society in which acknowledging pagan gods would have been heresy.
            • jakderrida 1 year ago
              Unironically, you should write scripts for the museum tour guy. While it has been a long time since I've come across one, I recall not being able to pay attention either because they're observations were apparent at surface-level or because they assume we're all pHD students.

              Best place to start is to just personalize it. With certainty that someone chose to portray what appears on the frescoes in front of you over numerous possible alternatives. Now ask yourselves why. Notice the lack of romantic portrayals of Hector or Achilles charging into battle like you'd find on posters of anime or modern subject matter.

              It just seems like such a perfect way to get through to teenagers like I once was that really couldn't imagine the people that owned the frescoes as anything more than abstractions I'd associate with middle school Social Studies.

            • angiosperm 1 year ago
              They were topics considered more appropriate for a social setting. That they were really about rape and kidnapping was probably not seen as notable; they are just familiar furnishings of a culture founded and maintained on armed compulsion. Nobody but the gods have any freedom, and the gods are bored children.
              • trilbyglens 1 year ago
                All civilizations are fundamentally based on armed compulsion. That's not a great way of understanding the difference between our modern culture and the Roman world.

                A more useful way to delineate would be to say that Romans lived in a world where "might makes right" was the unquestioned order of the universe. The weak were trod underfoot and that was the way of the world. In modernity, we have a shared assumption that is very different, which is that even the weakest among us have a basic right to dignity and freedom. That was not an assumption that existed until after Christianity and its philosophies had fully taken root.

                • southernplaces7 1 year ago
                  >A more useful way to delineate would be to say that Romans lived in a world where "might makes right" was the unquestioned order of the universe.

                  It was the common belief and enshrined in many Roman practices, but it was far from the unquestioned order of the day. Multiple Roman emperors, from Augustus onward created laws that went directly contrary to the idea of might always making right. One notable example of this is an emperor that everyone knows, Marcus Aurelius, but an even better case in point would be his impressive mentor, Titus Antoninus Pius, quite possibly the best and most humane emperor that Rome ever had.

                  He ruled longer than any emperor except for Augustus, up until his own death, but is little known of by the public in modern times, partly, I suspect, due to the sheer calmness of his rule, lacking as it was in major bloody events or notable acts of repression. He also made many sincere efforts to humanize and liberalize legal procedure in favor of ordinary people and even slaves, instead of the opposite. The devil is indeed in the details, or in this case, maybe a few minor angels were found there instead.

                  Also worth noting is that compared to most of the contemporary civilizations that surrounded them, the Romans' society was positively enlightened by the standards of the time. This may not seem like much, but when you compare Roman pretensions to moderate, ordered rule with the brutality of places like northern Europe, it was more than nothing for that time. It wasn't just by violence that Romans were so successful at Romanizing other people, these people themselves often willfully accepted Roman practices. In some ways, it reminds one of charismatic future societies like those of the British Empire and the United States today.

                  • angiosperm 1 year ago
                    Conceded. Anyway the Romans were unpleasant neighbors and worse hosts. But I do not credit Christianity for recognition of rights to dignity and freedom. The Church has much more commonly been a supporter of oppression, starting as the official religious organ of the Roman Empire itsel. Only in recent centuries have breakaway sects adopted enlightenment values from secular culture.
                  • zer00eyz 1 year ago
                    [flagged]
                    • angiosperm 1 year ago
                      I understand from this that you consider coercive interactions and slavery to be such a normal part of your world as to be unworthy of comment.

                      Pretending that people of the time bearing under the crushing burden of slavery did not suffer for it is the culture-washing. They were fully aware of their status, and would have spit on your complaint.

                      • 082349872349872 1 year ago
                        Seneca wrote about slavery (not totally on board) as did Aristotle (gung ho).

                        I'm pretty sure your average literate roman would have been against his own slavery (being enslaved probably doesn't do wonders for one's auctoritas); the difference was that asymmetric relationships, "laws for thee, not for me", were a little more acceptable then than now.

                        • drawkward 1 year ago
                          Your allegations seem unsubstantiated by the text of the comment to which you're responding.

                          Can you point out examples of where op is "looking for offense and negativity"?

                      • project2501a 1 year ago
                        > Helen and Paris

                        Apologies for nitpicking but on the picture it says "Αλέξανδρος"/Alexander, not Paris

                        • maw 1 year ago
                          I'm not really sure what you're getting at. A lot of figures in mythology have multiple names. Paris/Alexander was one -- but today he's far better known as Paris.

                          The characters used to write Αλεξανδρος (no accents back then!) are interesting to me. I associated that style of script with much later times. Shows what I know.

                          • project2501a 1 year ago
                            Really? I'm Greek and that's the first time I hear about this. Do you have any more info, please?
                      • jdlyga 1 year ago
                        Pompeii is an amazing place to visit, and it was a much different place than I expected. It feels like you're in a city. There are roads, sidewalks, and even pedestrian crossings. There are shops with apartments on top, wine bars, everything. It's huge!
                        • dgfitz 1 year ago
                          I would highly recommend anyone who has the desire and financial means visit at least once. I was completely fascinated, could have spent days there instead of just one day.
                          • alpha_squared 1 year ago
                            I stayed there for a week and can confirm it was a great time. There are a surprising amount of activities and tourist destinations within reach without the busyness that you often find at touristy destinations.
                        • lapetitejort 1 year ago
                          Every few decades we should choose a random block anywhere in the world, pay all of the inhabitants a very fair compensation for them to leave all of their worldly possessions exactly as they lie, board up the entire block, then dump a preserving material onto the block. Millenia from now it can be excavated by the world for a snapshot into that time and place.
                        • 48864w6ui 1 year ago
                          At least the donkeys, and not the slaves, were on the other side of the wall from the banquet hall.

                          (Was the thin side passage storage, or for muzak?)

                          • angiosperm 1 year ago
                            The alley was the way to the slaves' rooms, so supplies and slaves would not need to traipse through the manor. The slaves probably slept right there, or in rooms above got to by ladders.
                          • drawkward 1 year ago
                            For all those who intend to visit Pompeii: Rick Steves has a free narrated (in English) tour in one of his apps. Really worth it.
                            • 1 year ago
                              • gadders 1 year ago
                                FFS: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39999030
                                • DyslexicAtheist 1 year ago
                                  time of submission matters, but it's strange that this post wasn't marked as duplicate of your submission
                                  • pvg 1 year ago
                                    They only count as HN dupes if they've received some attention so this is not a dupe under HN dupe law.
                                    • gadders 1 year ago
                                      I'll just email Dang and ask for a credit to my imaginary internet points total :-)
                                      • jdright 1 year ago
                                        bbc.com Vs. bbc.co.uk
                                    • evereverever 1 year ago
                                      Amazing!

                                      When will these be chipped away and taken to Naples to their museum?

                                      I feel that's the greatest tragedy of Pompeii is having to visit Naples and see that whole walls and most artifacts are just kept there.

                                      • asveikau 1 year ago
                                        I did the other direction, wanted to go to Naples, visited Pompeii because it's nearby. There's nothing wrong with Naples.
                                      • 1 year ago
                                        • angiosperm 1 year ago
                                          No one remarks how trite and formulaic the frescoes' compositions are. They are painted as if from soap-opera re-enactments performed by actors bored to tears. Evidently whoever commissioned the frescoes couldn't tell, cared less, or could do nothing about it. That who paid for them was Aulus Rustius Verus, a local politician, tracks. The mosaic floor of 3 million tiles with no more decoration than a double black line around the perimeter tracks, too; probably rugs covered most of it.

                                          These are lavish trappings of a slave-keeping society. The slaves could be compelled to paint and lay mosaic tiles, but not to care. They were anyway able to ensure viewers would know. Moderns working in advertising will understand.

                                          • zer00eyz 1 year ago
                                            Wow.

                                            You just jammed a very modern perspective on something that isnt that at all.

                                            This is a time where there is no "reproduction" where all art of this sort is local. If we go into the mayor of your city's house, strip out all the reproduction what is going to be left? Is he going to be able to put a picaso on every wall if he wants them enriched?

                                            "Soap opera like" ... Well let's think about this, any one with enough skill is gonna go to Rome, leaving what behind, the B team, the after school special level actors. This is what the B team does with art. It's very good for where and what it is.

                                            The rant about slavery is very contemporary. The narrative that this was created by slaves cause you deemed it lifeless and they were "forced" to do it is... disconnected from history, and art.

                                            • PeterisP 1 year ago
                                              These are the luxury villas of the super-rich Romans, in the best-resort-close-to-Rome where they'd live while they didn't need to be in Rome for political reasons. They definitely could afford the "A team".
                                              • angiosperm 1 year ago
                                                The fresco painters probably cycled through Rome to pick up current fashions, then circulated through outlying towns to meet demand for capital styles. A top politician could easily have afforded the best painters, if he cared.

                                                The "narrative that this was created by slaves" is just a fact of history. If you don't like how history was, you may direct your attention elsewhere. Ranting about somebody mentioning facts of history you prefer to avoid thinking about is disconnected from life.

                                                • empath-nirvana 1 year ago
                                                  Pompeii was a beach resort. You don't go to the Jersey Shore expecting high art.
                                                  • asveikau 1 year ago
                                                    Beach resort can mean jersey shore (of which there is both upscale and down market today), could also mean Martha's vineyard. I think Pompeians were wealthy from what I recall reading.
                                                • natroniks 1 year ago
                                                  I think Ancient art - visual and otherwise - was steeped in formulaic motifs. It's hard to judge the "passion" of the artist's hand with such low quality images, not to mention the damage wrought over thousands of years. I think it's worthwhile to be careful not to judge ancient art with a modern eye. They had different values. It's quite possible if not likely that frescoes were viewed as temporary, to be plaster-painted over every so often. We can see multiple layers of painted plaster in other parts of Pompeii, so it's not unlikely private homes would do the same. If then they viewed this art as fleeting, why should they pay for the best details when the overall effect is more important? Anyone who walked into this hall would have been familiar with the Trojan cycle. So as long as the characters were recognizable - hence the name labels - that was sufficient. I personally find these bright, full-bodied figures against a stark black background reminiscent of the chiaroscuro effect mastered by Caravaggio some 1500 years later using oil
                                                  • duped 1 year ago
                                                    I'm not an artist or art historian but my understanding is that fresco (the technique) has no upsides other than longevity. It's time consuming, if the artist makes a mistake they need to start over, and has to be meticulously planned. That's why even the great masters of the Renaissance painted so few, and they tended to be large endeavors. It took a lot of time and planning to do one, even at a small scale.

                                                    Like if a Roman home owner decided they didn't like the fresco on their wall, it would take at least a year to paint a new one.

                                                    • beezlebroxxxxxx 1 year ago
                                                      > I think Ancient art - visual and otherwise - was steeped in formulaic motifs.

                                                      A good example is ancient Egyptian art, which remained remarkably consistent across multiple empires, kingdoms, and dynasties, stretching some 3 millennia and change, a time range and consistency that is simply hard for us to fathom.

                                                      • empath-nirvana 1 year ago
                                                        For statuary in particular, it's important to note that Egyptians, and Greeks to a lesser extent, believed that statues of gods were _physically inhabited by those gods_ and could be used to communicate with them, so it was pretty important not to mess with depictions.

                                                        For other common tropes, like Medusa, they were used as wards against evil and were basically magical spells or talismans.

                                                      • angiosperm 1 year ago
                                                        There is no hint of passion. It is just formulaic decoration. The only interest for viewers would be in the clothing styles, which would track trends in Rome, and so need to be painted over frequently.

                                                        Comparisons to Hummel are more appropriate than to Caravaggio.

                                                      • pugworthy 1 year ago
                                                        There must have been professional mural and mosaic designers. I wonder if there is any duplication of designs in the town - like the artist had a 'liber artis' (clip art book) the customer could choose from?
                                                        • angiosperm 1 year ago
                                                          They probably traveled from city to city. They certainly carried clip art catalogs, and had painted each scene many times over. It wasn't art, it was decoration.
                                                        • skrbjc 1 year ago
                                                          Seems unlikely the slaves would be doing things like painting frescoes and laying mosaic floors. That would more likely be from skilled craftsmen. My impression was that the slaves were probably used to run the bakery.
                                                          • hammock 1 year ago
                                                            St. Kinga Chapel in the Weilizcka salt mine, complete with relief carving of the Last Supper, salt crystal chandeliers, carved statues and altars was entirely made by trade miners, not skilled scuptors. If you spend enough time in a mine you can get good at that stuff

                                                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wieliczka_Salt_Mine

                                                            • lproven 1 year ago
                                                              Been there twice. Absolutely astounding place... and the bit that's open to the public is I believe about 2% of the mine.
                                                            • angiosperm 1 year ago
                                                              Slaves did anything in Roman society. Skilled workers from conquered places were enslaved. Slaves apprenticed under them. Slaves even ran all the government offices, and some got rich from bribes, buying their freedom, and eventually, some, their childrens'.
                                                              • vondur 1 year ago
                                                                That is correct. Greek slaves were tutors to some of the most powerful people in the Roman government. Polybius was kept as a hostage in Rome for 17 years and was a close associate of Scipio Aemilianus, who sacked Carthage at the end of the Third Punic War.
                                                                • 1 year ago
                                                                • Almondsetat 1 year ago
                                                                  Slaves taught geometry and philosophy to emperors...
                                                                • RcouF1uZ4gsC 1 year ago
                                                                  > No one remarks how trite and formulaic the frescoes' compositions are.

                                                                  I don't know.

                                                                  Cassandra's expression looks remarkably similar to a woman who has received an unsolicited dick pic on Tinder.

                                                                  • 082349872349872 1 year ago
                                                                    3 phones, 3 beeps; their owners glance at them briefly, and:

                                                                    Leda: Who's sending me badly cropped Donald Duck?

                                                                    Europa: That's nothing, I got Rocky Mountain Oysters.

                                                                    Danaë: Get out, losers! I got champagne...

                                                                  • hammock 1 year ago
                                                                    >No one remarks how trite and formulaic the frescoes' compositions are

                                                                    When I saw the faces in the hero image this was my first reaction as well. Hummel figurines of ancient Rome

                                                                    • 082349872349872 1 year ago
                                                                      > "In the shimmering light, the paintings would have almost come to life,"

                                                                      They must have been painted by the famous roman "pictor lucis": Uiliemus Thomas Quinquaed?

                                                                    • Ekaros 1 year ago
                                                                      I'm on other hand surprised just how decent they are considering they are form nearly 2000 years ago. Ofc, they are no Dutch Masters, but still not too bad. There are worse artists now...
                                                                      • angiosperm 1 year ago
                                                                        Civilization as we understand it was already thousands of years old, then, and actually expressive art from the period is easy to find.

                                                                        These frescoes were painted at great expense on behalf of an elite figure. He could afford to have expressive art if he cared enough to demand it, and was perceptive enough to recognize whether he had it. Evidently he didn't, or wasn't.