Democracy Dies Behind Paywalls – Paywalled

79 points by dschuetz 1 year ago | 57 comments
  • usr1106 1 year ago
    Requesting free journalism is like requesting free food. Both are essential, but few would expect food being distributed for free.

    Subscriptions are fine, I pay for several. But they don't fit every use case. There should be a way to pay for a single article. Some micropayment service(s) so you don't need an account with every web site you might want to read.

    It has been tried numerous time without success. Not sure when the right time and the right concept will come.

    • kjkjadksj 1 year ago
      Historically you could read any newspaper for free. It would be left all over the place: at work, at cafes, on the bus seat. Short of that you could go to like a grocery store where the paper is kept in a rack not a box, read all you want, and put it back. Libraries had papers too.

      Today publishers want an unprecedented level of restriction to solely the subscribers. News was never like this but they are trying to repaint our expectations on it for profit.

      • snakeyjake 1 year ago
        >Libraries had papers too.

        Have.

        Practically every public library in the US (over 17,000 as of right now) currently, today, has online access to local and national newspapers.

        My public library offers free online access to the following national newspapers:

        Atlanta Journal-Constitution

        The Atlantic (HAH!)

        The Chicago Tribune

        The Los Angeles Times

        The New York Times

        USA Today

        The Wall Street Journal

        They also offer access to local newspapers, print and digital magazines, foreign-language newspapers, historical newspaper archives, scientific journals, and more.

        I live in a highly-populated, urban and suburban, highly-affluent region. To test and see if smaller public libraries have access these resources I went to the website of the public library system of the rural Indiana county my grandparents lived in. They have one branch serving 28,000 people in a poorer region of the country where average household income is somewhere around $48,000. They have access to newspapers, magazines, and scientific journals through the Indiana Digital Library system.

        Then I went to the library of the poorest county (19,000/$22k) in the entire country and did the same thing: WV Reads provides access to all of that, too.

        All for $0.00-- today.

        Not "had", "have".

        Support, by using, your local library.

        • xhkkffbf 1 year ago
          This is all good news, I suppose, but I think that if it were widely adopted the system would fail. I doubt the libraries pay enough to support the news rooms if everyone tossed aside their subscriptions and started using the library's subscription.
          • lotsoweiners 1 year ago
            To your knowledge are these news subscriptions things that can be accessed from my own devices in the comfort of my own home via a library card or is it something I have to go to a library in person and sit at their computer to read?
          • FLT8 1 year ago
            As far as I remember things, newspapers used to carry a lot of advertising. And the face value of a newspaper was more-or-less a nominal amount, I suspect largely to support the distribution network.

            I don't recall ever seeing a newspaper lying around with ads cut out or scribbled over - which I guess is a simplistic analog of the ad-blockers and such that modern news outlets are up against. You can understand the push to maintain revenue that's needed to support quality journalism.

            At the same time, as a consumer of news, print ads would not be centrally and intrusively tracking your every thought either, so the desire to block modern ads is entirely rational.

            Modern advertising methods have broken the social contract that used to exist to help keep things in balance.

            • xhkkffbf 1 year ago
              Now Google takes the ad revenue before people get to the content generating sites.
          • kjreact 1 year ago
            > Requesting free journalism is like requesting free food. Both are essential, but few would expect food being distributed for free.

            But unlike food, many people are willing to report on news freely without expectation of payment. For example, I get better local news coverage in my local city subreddit than I do in any professional publication.

            Of course this type of citizen “journalism” is less rigorous, but nonetheless it is good enough which is why I believe charging for news has been a tough sell in the age of social media.

            > There should be a way to pay for a single article. Some micropayment service(s) so you don't need an account with every web site you might want to read.

            I think the idea of Reddit gold comes close to a feasible micropayment system. At the moment it only profits Reddit, but there might be room for some profit sharing.

            • dave78 1 year ago
              > For example, I get better local news coverage in my local city subreddit than I do in any professional publication.

              Agreed. And the "professional" local news is more and more just regurgitating photos, videos, and descriptions they've lifted from Instagram, Tiktok, X, and Reddit anyway.

            • JumpCrisscross 1 year ago
              > should be a way to pay for a single article

              It fundamentally doesn’t work due to journalism, particularly investigative journalism, having high fixed and sporadic costs. Consider the trivial example of defending ones’ journalists against a lawsuit. You can’t easily borrow against clickstream revenue.

              Caveat: it could work, but at effectively a a few months’ subscription price per article.

              • achow 1 year ago
                I always wondered if Spotify could do it for music (which I think are much more zealously protected), why there is no similar service for news articles?

                Is it because a news article is one time consumption, whereas music is not?

                • wkat4242 1 year ago
                  There actually was one in the past that did just that. And I don't mean that apple thing because it's way too locked into their walled garden and it's too US centric.

                  Edit: It was blendle. It seems to be still around even. But it's only focused on the Dutch market now, they used to have bigger plans. They only have some magazines now anyway, they used to have all the major newspapers onboard.

                  But anyway in the Netherlands we have an excellent state-owned news company (NOS). They're just funded by taxes. So I'm not bothered to pay for anything else. Also, all the other media are in the clammy hands of 2 huge Belgian media concerns (DPG and Mediahuis) and I have no intention of funding them.

                  • reducesuffering 1 year ago
                    Music and articles aren't so different in time based consumption. Most music is short term, like 90% listener fall off within 6 months. Though there are still classics that maintain relevancy, just as there are articles that stay relevant.

                    Spotify is a great example though, because people would find it preposterous to pay $10/mth to listen to each band they wanted to.

                    • browningstreet 1 year ago
                      Apple News+?

                      It's how I read a bunch of paywalled content -- New Yorker, NYTs, Slate, etc.

                      Is there room for multiple "Paid RSS reader where funds are distributed per article reads or time spent reading"..?

                      Are paid podcasts in the Apple ecosystem successful, or "Join" in Youtube? Maybe people will pay to listen/watch but not to read?

                    • rightbyte 1 year ago
                      If I remember correctly many if not most newspaper readers seemed to be free loaders when you paid for it. They were shared alot.
                      • BizarroLand 1 year ago
                        For me, the right concept would be that rather than pay every website I want to go to $10, $20 or even $50 / month for the at most 3 articles that I would read that I would have an add on in my browser that would pay a fraction of a penny to each website I visit.

                        Then it would be up to me. Do I want to put $10/month into browsing the internet without paywalls? Sure, fine, then I get an ad or two but I would have access.

                        Add a little more, fewer ads, better experience.

                        Then at the end of each month, the wallet extension empties and is split evenly among the websites I visited.

                        This would probably not work for high cost high bandwidth streaming sites like netflix, but for all of these piddly new sites that would bolster their income dramatically and allow them to stop fiddling with the stupid paywalls and trying to force every person who visits their site to pay them money to read their mostly poorly written and generally completely worthless text while being bombarded with ads and auto playing news videos about today's latest tragic political intrigue.

                        • landgenoot 1 year ago
                          I wrote a PoC / master thesis exactly on this idea + the lightning network to support micro transactions. The revenue distribution is the hardest thing to solve. My approach was to have a rolling budget and spending it percentage wise in real time per page view.

                          https://lightning-sprinkle.github.io/master-thesis/thesis/ma...

                          • BizarroLand 1 year ago
                            I like the general idea, but I'm not fond that it is centered on Brave's BAT. BAT is not a bad idea, but the narrow scope of acquiring them and being locked into a walled garden grates at my desire to not be trapped.

                            Something that works in a similar way, by using blockchain to record site views per person and allowing cooperating websites to cash in on the views would be my preference.

                            I imagine that there would be other issues like people impersonating other people and spending their web views, or people setting up "fake" sites and then using dark methods to redirect page views to their site, siphoning off user cash from websites that actually add value, just for starters.

                        • reducesuffering 1 year ago
                          I'm a pro-market person. However, these are the problems I see, and similar ones are what led us to government fund so much of education.

                          Independent "purely get to the truth" journalism, that people access, is a bedrock of a well functioning society. It's another form of an educated populace. I think what we're seeing right now is that a smaller and smaller upper middle class people are able to read a variety of sources to stay well informed, while most will now never pay or read informed articles. We all vote, so we should want everyone to have easy access to good sources. Instead, now most people purely consume low quality clickbait "for the ad revenue" drivel, and I see that is a contributor to society's poor understanding of the world around them in general.

                          So, I see government paying to make quality journalism accessible the same way I see education. We know that removing K-12 public school and state universities would be an unmitigated disaster in many of peoples' abilities to think, though they will still vote.

                          • harwoodjp 1 year ago
                            > few would expect food being distributed for free

                            uhh

                            • BriggyDwiggs42 1 year ago
                              Yeah food should be free that would be good.
                            • LeroyRaz 1 year ago
                              The quality of most (nearly all) media is (embarrassingly) poor though. You often find more serious reporting on YouTube than in the press!! For example, the YouTuber CoffeeZilla gave a far more earnest coverage of SBF than any newspaper I came across.

                              Similarly, I think I would rather read a blog written by an expert on their area of expertise (for free) than read a newspaper's (sloppy) filtering of that.

                              And, if I care deeply enough about a topic, I would rather read a book about it. What service do these newspapers think they serve?

                              To corrupt an adage, I honestly think the best reporting is generally free (e.g. coffeezilla, e.g., excellent in-depth podcasts, e.g. many excellent articles and essays linked via HackerNews, etc...) and the second best is more expensive than most newspapers can afford to be (e.g., a book).

                              • BobaFloutist 1 year ago
                                It's probably true that if you're good enough at evaluating sources, you can find superior technical detail from a free source than from traditional news. The theoretical purpose of traditional news is to be a reputable clearinghouse for skilled researchers and source evaluators to find good enough sources for a wide variety of things.

                                There's not enough time in the day for someone with a different full time job to properly inform themselves on every issue, so, in theory, news publications pay people to make that their full time job.

                                Unfortunately, that's not actually what most people want out of news, and is not something most people are actually willing to pay for, so the average quality of the product has quietly degraded over the years, catalyzed by digital media trends in general and sharply hastened in 2016.

                                • patrick451 1 year ago
                                  When I read a news story on something I already know about, it generally sounds like sophomoric hogwash. I have to assume the stories that I know little about are also hogwash. I.e., an argument that a newspaper is vetting information makes little sense to me.
                                  • BobaFloutist 1 year ago
                                    That's the purpose of a newspaper. That isn't to say they're doing a particularly good job these days.
                                    • garaetjjte 1 year ago
                                      >Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them. In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.
                                  • JumpCrisscross 1 year ago
                                    > YouTuber CoffeeZilla gave a far more earnest coverage of SBF than any newspaper I came across

                                    Do you pay for any journalism? Or are you comparing the ad-supported cruft to YouTube?

                                    YouTube has great information. But BloombergLaw, for example, remains a far more decisive source than CoffeeZilla. I say this as someone who participated in the FTX estate’s bankruptcy process as an asset purchaser.

                                    • LeroyRaz 1 year ago
                                      I've read many paywalled articles. HackerNews generally links an archive link, and I also occasionally use institutional access. However, I don't subscribe personally to any news sites.

                                      Often, when I do read paywalled articles, I feel embarrassed by how poor they are. On most topics I'm actually informed on, e.g., my area of work, or say reporting on a fully videod courtroom case I've been following, they come across as incredibly ignorant. This is mainly the general newsites though, e.g., the Atlantic, etc...

                                      I might check out BloombergLaw. So far, I think the only news providers I respect, are BellingCat (I thought their work with navalny was incredible), PrivateEye (consistently princibled - and funny - satyrists) and I also have a softspot for the BBC.

                                  • hcfman 1 year ago
                                    This is so true… and stuff disappears from the internet news a lot. In Europe they have laws that are invoked a lot that should be renamed to the right to politicians to remain unaccountable.

                                    Privacy is portayed by the authorities as someone to protect the people, but in reality the people have none and it’s really used to hide the illegal and corrupt actions of government officials.

                                    • thesnide 1 year ago
                                      That's why physical hard copies are often better for historians. But that isn't free.
                                    • 1 year ago
                                      • skybrian 1 year ago
                                        At a smaller scale, for an independent writer publishing on Substack, I’m a fan of the model where most articles are free but some are for paid subscribers only. If you’re publishing something of widespread interest, maybe that one should be free.

                                        Maybe that would work for larger websites too? They do often have gift links, which are another way to do it. Limited-time promotions seem like a reasonable way to get new subscribers, and an election is an excuse to do it. It would get traffic from people who do last-minute research on less-covered races.

                                        I’m skeptical about how much effect it would have on the races where most people have already made up their minds. How would that work? Would it increase turnout?

                                        • 60secs 1 year ago
                                          Too bad there's not a netflix/spotify for journalism. No single journalism source is worth a subscription for 99.9% of people. Aggregated, maybe.
                                          • afruitpie 1 year ago
                                            Apple News+ is trying to be that. I get it through my Apple One family plan.

                                            The home page is shamefully Trump spam and tabloid garbage, but the magazine section isn’t terrible. I read The Atlantic and The New Yorker frequently on it.

                                            • hedora 1 year ago
                                              The trump spam is probably because you read trump spam just enough to make it display more trump spam.

                                              Avoiding that is easier said than done: I used to pay for Apple News+, but ended up clicking on just enough clickbait to only get clickbait in my feed.

                                              If they had a way to only allow certain news sources then I’d probably re-subscribe.

                                              • nozzlegear 1 year ago
                                                I found that you can ignore news stories from certain outlets in Apple News, which I chose to do with certain celebrity gossip outlets that had been taking over my feed. Apparently this only replaces the stories with a placeholder that says "You've blocked this news source". Most of the time that's fine. But place that in the context of how they group related news stories in the feed: if you've got a group of news stories that reads "World War 3 has just started," "President So-and-so dies in attack," "You've blocked this news source," well, you might just be tempted to click on that blocked story. I'd rather they remove it from the feed entirely.
                                            • yifanl 1 year ago
                                              I mean, the NYT/WaPo are basically aggregate sites for journalism?
                                              • kjkjadksj 1 year ago
                                                They aren’t true aggregates since stories still go through their editors for filtering.
                                            • zer00eyz 1 year ago
                                              https://archive.is/0kiur

                                              To get around the paywall...

                                              • hcfman 1 year ago
                                                Oh the irony. But thanks…
                                              • rmorey 1 year ago
                                                Another article I quite like about this (not paywalled!) https://www.currentaffairs.org/2020/08/the-truth-is-paywalle...
                                                • leotravis10 1 year ago
                                                  That piece is so much better and it's still relevant today if you think about it.
                                                • troyvit 1 year ago
                                                  So what's the answer then? Before the internet almost all journalism was "paywalled." You either bought a subscription or an individual copy of what the organization has to offer.

                                                  Ad-supported journalism is a joke in a society that abuses advertising so thoroughly. Using an ad blocker is more than a convenience, it's a security measure. Arguably it's also better for the environment [1] [2].

                                                  One article [3] argues for "non-reformist reforms," which try to mitigate the commercial pressures on journalism. However the article's solution seems to be to switch to public media models and/or government funding. As the article puts it:

                                                  "Therefore, any initiative that erodes the commercial and anti-democratic design of existing media institutions—by transitioning them into nonprofit outlets, facilitating public media partnerships, unionizing newsrooms, and establishing media cooperatives—can help radicalize news workers and engage communities while laying the groundwork for more transformative change in the future."

                                                  I honestly don't know how well that'll work, but it's also basically what the article suggests to pay for journalism for a year:

                                                  "They can enlist foundations or other sponsors to underwrite their work. They can turn to readers who are willing to subscribe, renew their subscriptions, or make added donations to subsidize important coverage during a crucial election."

                                                  Stengel's article also says, "A large percentage of these Americans see media as being biased. Well, part of the reason they think media are biased is that most fair, accurate, and unbiased news sits behind a wall."

                                                  That wasn't true 40 years ago and I don't think it's true now. A lot of journalism strives to be unbiased, but that will always be a goal it reaches for, not one it will attain. To say otherwise only continues to erode society's trust of journalism.

                                                  The money to pay journalists has to come from somewhere.

                                                  [1] https://marmelab.com/blog/2022/01/17/media-websites-carbon-e...

                                                  [2] https://www.mdpi.com/2227-7080/8/2/18

                                                  [3] https://lpeproject.org/blog/taking-media-out-of-the-market/

                                                  • lakomen 1 year ago
                                                    In my city the newspaper puts their daily news on display in their windows for everyone to read for free.
                                                    • kjkjadksj 1 year ago
                                                      Free paper was everywhere I remember. Especially the coffee shop.
                                                      • troyvit 1 year ago
                                                        The coffee shops most likely paid for those subscriptions.
                                                      • troyvit 1 year ago
                                                        You're lucky. My city's newspaper moved to another town to consolidate operations. They put a helluva a brewery (https://bootstrapbrewing.com/) in the old building though!
                                                    • mrkramer 1 year ago
                                                      News paywalls are deeply problematic because when you "surf" the Web and when you stumble upon some paywalled article, you are either stuck (blocked from viewing the content) and you leave or you view the paywalled article in "pirated" version via our "beloved" archive.is. This dynamic is not good for a news industry as a whole.

                                                      I never subscribed to a newspaper and I don't know what exactly drives an average Joe to subscribe to one but my assumption is that one or two paywalled articles won't drive someone to subscribe to the newspaper, it would rather frustrate them to get stuck and blocked from reading. Either you will subscribe because of the word of mouth and perceived reputation of the newspaper or you will subscribe because your favorite author is writing for the newspaper you want to subscribe. That's why I find it mind boggling that for example The Economist's news articles are anonymous and not signed by authors.

                                                      My suggested solutions are: 1. Make old news articles free and really new ones paywalled or 2. Introduce micropayments for each article (for example 10 cents to unlock an article for lifetime) or 3. Aggregate all paywalled articles across different newspapers to some news aggregator and then ask people to subscribe.

                                                      Tbh, I'm a huge fan of independent journalism and internet blogging which are free and either ad-supported or donation supported.

                                                      • beryilma 1 year ago
                                                        The problem with paywalls is that every organization wants your money separately. I don't want to create a separate account with NY Times, YouTube TV, The Guardian, Atlantic, Bloomberg, etc. and pay for each service separately. In particular, I consider each such account a security risk for data breaches and a potential for leaking my private information. Maintaining each account, having separate passwords, dealing with burdensome and intentionally difficult cancellations are all major headaches.

                                                        I don't want Google and the likes to become more powerful either, but some kind of consolidated access to all such information might be a better approach for the news consumer. Perhaps some kind of pay per "article" model might work better.

                                                        I would have been more willing to pay something like 25 cents per article if there was a universal access model.

                                                        I suprise myself saying this, but AOL model was probably a more consumer friendly approach...

                                                        • notnef 1 year ago
                                                          Kinda funny that this article gets cut off by a paywall
                                                          • dschuetz 1 year ago
                                                            That's essentially the point, it's ironic that they've put an article that already criticizes paywalls in the headline behind a paywall.
                                                          • jfengel 1 year ago
                                                            The paywalls aren't the problem. Information leaks around paywalls. The facts have always been available. You might not be able to get the primary source, but people are always bad about primary sources. People who want to believe disinformation have never let that stop them.

                                                            If anything, a paywall suggests that somebody has put some effort into gathering that news. People peddling disinformation want to pay you to take it.

                                                            I believe the real issue is that the disinformation is so popular. It's crafted so that some people want to hear it. It's usually not difficult to refute, but there's so much of it that it that even if you're skeptical it's hard to swat away 100% of it.

                                                            Putting a paywall between you and the actual news source doesn't help, but even if it were free, it's just too much work. And those who don't want to believe it won't.

                                                            • probably_jesus 1 year ago
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                                                              • stefantalpalaru 1 year ago
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                                                                • anfilt 1 year ago
                                                                  Oh the irony lol.
                                                                  • karmakaze 1 year ago
                                                                    Perhaps smugness: enjoy your privilege of democracy.
                                                                  • egberts1 1 year ago
                                                                    "Democracy dies in Darkness" -- paywalled Washington Post since 2017.