The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists

294 points by jpn 1 year ago | 247 comments
  • luisgvv 1 year ago
    I began as a junior dev and climbed up the ranks til the point where I became the SME in some areas of the product.

    Got laid off because sales goals were not met while they retained people which I think were incompetent in their work. Even some guys which I think were better and more critical to the projects were dumped.

    I'm not climbing that ladder by being proactive and "pragmatic" again...

    Call me a paycheck stealer, quiet quitter etc.

    Just give me some JIRA ticket and let me read books while I get my job done in 1-2 hours a day.

    • hinkley 1 year ago
      I’ll be you ten bucks they got rid of people who bring up bad news and kept the yes-men. A company that doesn’t know what’s broken is doomed to mediocrity.

      But some people want to play music while the ship sinks. So they arrange for the most pleasant rest of the voyage they can, instead of saving as many people as they can.

      • klabb3 1 year ago
        > I’ll be you ten bucks they got rid of people who bring up bad news and kept the yes-men

        I’m pretty cynical and assumed this was how layoffs worked but at least in faang and even smaller (maybe 500 people) SV companies, I actually don’t think this is the case anymore. Most I’ve seen have been extremely random – it seems like they cut teams/orgs very differently but on an individual level it seems random. I got the impression it’s some lawsuit thing, because they never leak the info beforehand so managers and other seniors can chime in, so it appears they’re cutting blindly from the exec level. There’s probably some politics going on in the higher echelons and maybe they force individuals out but with managers (including decorated ones) and regular employees it has not looked like a surgical political - not performance - play. From what I’ve seen.

        • lazyasciiart 1 year ago
          That’s how salesforce did it. One way you can tell how terribly uninformed the layoff choices were is that there were people who were actually rehired immediately.
          • Rustwerks 1 year ago
            This is a legal thing. If you do a layoff it's for business reasons and you can avoid all of the PIP and such. But if you do it that way you can't select based upon performance.
            • 8ytecoder 1 year ago
              That's how I see it as well. In a layoff, the role is being eliminated as opposed to a person being fired. So they cut entire teams working on "unprofitable" products or certain roles deemed "redundant" within the product. You typically have the option to take a severance or apply for another role internally.

              This is my understanding based purely on my experience getting laid off once - so take it with a huge grain of salt. The product I was working on was shutdown. I got paid a retainer to stay until the product can be properly wound down. Then got hired into a different role in a different team with a pay bump within a month. I got to keep the retainer as well - as long as I support the wind down efforts.

              • ghaff 1 year ago
                I wrote a comment on some other thread but there's just a lot of wrong place/wrong time at an individual level. If a company is doing a substantial layoff there just isn't the time, energy, or resources to train and fit people who may be generically "better" at some level into roles that already have people presumably doing adequate jobs filling them.

                People are not fungible. Someone can be in a role where they're really valuable. But the company evolves and roles evolve and the needs are different. Sure, they might be able to excel in a new role eventually--but maybe it's not optimal to try to make them fit especially at a senior level.

              • godelski 1 year ago
                The part I'm confused at is it doesn't seem that they are doomed, and end up being very successful companies. But I think this is likely due to lack of competition.

                I recently did an internship at one of these big companies, doing ML. I'm a researcher but had a production role. Coming in everything was really weird to me from how they setup their machines to training and evaluation. I brought up that the way they were measuring their performance was wrong and could tell they overfit their data. They didn't believe me. But then it came to be affecting my role. So I fixed it, showed them, and then they were like "oh thanks, but we're moving on to transformers now." Main part of what I did is actually make their model robust and actually work on their customer data! (I constantly hear that "industry is better because we have customers so it has to work" but I'm waiting to see things work like promised...) Of course, their transformer model took way more to train and had all the same problems, but were hidden a few levels deeper due to them dramatically scaling data and model size.

                I knew the ML research community had been overly focused on benchmarks but didn't realize how much worse it was in production environments. It just seems that metric hacking is the explicitly stated goal here. But I can't trust anyone to make ML models that themselves are metric hackers. The part that got me though is that I've always been told by industry people that if I added value to the company and made products better that the work (and thus I) would be valued. I did in an uncontestable manner, and I did not in an uncontestable way. I just thought we could make cool products AND make money at the same time. Didn't realize there was far more weight to the latter than the former. I know, I'm naive.

                • riskable 1 year ago
                  > due to lack of competition.

                  So let's compete! What are they selling? What prevents competitors from springing up?

                • chipdart 1 year ago
                  > I'll be you ten bucks they got rid of people who bring up bad news and kept the yes-men. A company that doesn’t know what’s broken is doomed to mediocrity.

                  I used to have that attitude, but since then I've grown to learn that people who bring back news are also creating the problems without providing any solution whereas the "yes-men" excuse is a coping mechanism to rationalize why those who try to actually tackle problems and are smart enough to not raise them before they actually exist ir have solutions are indeed an asset to the team.

                  No one wants to deal with a pain-in-the-ass who creates problems for everyone out of thin air. That's what gets you fired. Everyone has to deal with real problems, and they don't need the distraction of having to deal with artificial ones.

                  • vkou 1 year ago
                    Unless they are given meaningful equity, it's not their ship, and regardless of whether it is or isn't, unlike the shareholders and creditors, they won't be sinking with it.

                    If you want worker interests to be even a little aligned with owner interests, the correct corporate structure is not an S corp, or a C corp, it is some flavor of worker co-op.

                    And even then, it can't grow too big.

                    • hinkley 1 year ago
                      People get invested in their work. And there are a lot of software people who make their work part of their identity, and so when they are accused of doing bad work they take is as a personal attack.
                      • erikerikson 1 year ago
                        A co-op only attenuates to employees. There are better options. Example: FairShares Commons
                      • cyanydeez 1 year ago
                        Peoplw conceptualize businesses likr some super organism that should try to maximize the quality of its products.

                        In reality, it most.often maximizes its executives lives while minimizing all other forms of frictions.

                        Everyone whose worked with small businesses will rscognize this pattern easily. Uts only when you get a few e?tra executives that the equation itself gets comolicated, but its still typically about maximizing the executives livlihood.

                      • hankchinaski 1 year ago
                        I have been doing this for years and I think it's the best output per hour worked strategy if you have a clear exit plan outside scaling the so-called ladder
                        • toomuchtodo 1 year ago
                          > if you have a clear exit plan outside scaling the so-called ladder

                          Exit plan is FIRE. Everything else is circus and performance art. Others can play status games, I prefer wealth games: wealth is options and options are freedom.

                          Pragmatic, smart, skilled people are extracted from unless lucky and in a position to see outsized returns from their effort. Better to know what enough is, collect enough freedom coins, and enjoy the one go you get at life.

                          (n=1, ymmv, "show me the incentives, and I'll show you the outcome")

                          • chinchilla2020 1 year ago
                            I had a bit of an epiphany when I read this comment since you hit the nail on the head so succinctly.

                            Wealth is the only true path that gives you options. All other paths are dependent on income.

                            There really is no other exit plan except financial security. Every other plan is just putting you into the walls a new rat maze.

                            • georgeecollins 1 year ago
                              I think that is a great plan and good advice, but you may find as you continue in your career that you enjoy work more. When I was starting out I was always tired, anxious and frustrated. Now I would never even get hired for those kinds of jobs (or take them). You may get to a point where you have a lot more power and discretion at work and enjoy it. There's a lot to be said for working at jobs you enjoy.
                              • 1 year ago
                            • folsom 1 year ago
                              That is why I work like I get paid, a little bit on Fridays.
                              • twojobsoneboss 1 year ago
                                Boss makes a dollar, I make a dime. That's why I poop, on company time.
                                • Pepe1vo 1 year ago
                                  That was a rhyme from a simpler time. Now the boss makes a grand and I make a buck. So, let's steal the catalytic converter from the company truck.
                              • sojournerc 1 year ago
                                I was layed off after being burnt out on exactly what you're describing. The organization lost 5 years of deep institutional knowledge into their systems that I designed because i couldn't get buy in on what I thought was important.
                                • dakiol 1 year ago
                                  > Just give me some JIRA ticket and let me read books while I get my job done in 1-2 hours a day.

                                  Aren't we all (normal and decent people) doing this already?

                                  • Seb-C 1 year ago
                                    As someone who cares about his work, has strong professional ethics and wisely chooses his employers to not end-up in such environments, no I don't.

                                    The worst places for me are precisely those where you can get by with 1~2h of work a day because no one cares and the company's culture does not value the time and skills of his workers.

                                    • rybosworld 1 year ago
                                      > wisely chooses his employers to not end-up in such environments

                                      This is a pretty common attitude. That is, "I'm able to pick better workplaces than you are".

                                      It implies you have control over the other people that work at the company. And unless you're the CEO, you don't. You cannot with any certainty tell what a work environment is like in the interview stage.

                                      You can job hop a half dozen times until you find a good fit. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. But framing it as: "I pick better work environments than you" is an attitude I'd really like to see disappear. It ignores just how much of a role luck plays.

                                    • switchbak 1 year ago
                                      No. Many of us are working hard, trying to get real work done. And spending 20-40 mins a day checking Hacker News :)

                                      Seriously though, don’t you feel bad by not pulling your weight? Someone has to get your work done.

                                      • OkayPhysicist 1 year ago
                                        You're applying emotion to the cold calculus of economics. I'm supplying an acceptable amount of labor to my boss (evident by the fact that my boss hasn't fired/complained to me) in exchange for an acceptable amount of money (evident by the fact that I haven't quit).

                                        We're all on salary. Unless whatever I'm working on is going to boost my options enough to make it worth my while (it won't), there's no reason to break my back.

                                        • autoexecbat 1 year ago
                                          > Someone has to get your work done.

                                          That's often the problem, in that it doesn't truly matter if the work got done

                                          • ammasant 1 year ago
                                            You falsely assume the only 'work' to be done is that immediately aligned with sprint velocity rather than all that done to make someone a valuable contributor in the first place (what your employer is actually paying for). The person who spends ~2 hours a day 'working' and the rest of their day on research, self-education, or more theoretical domains will become exponentially more valuable over time compared the most endurant hamster wheel runner as a function of qualitatively superior capabilities. Smart engineers realize this growth curve and alter their trajectory, benefitting both themselves and their employer long-term.
                                            • the_cat_kittles 1 year ago
                                              this mindset only makes sense when the mission of the company is noble and appreciated by the greater community. otherwise you are a fool for having this attitude
                                              • kjkjadksj 1 year ago
                                                Its not your work unless you own the company
                                                • petepete 1 year ago
                                                  20-40 mins an hour here chief.
                                                  • K0balt 1 year ago
                                                    You get the work done that the position requires. If you can do that in a couple of hours, I see no incentive whatsoever for most employees to increase productivity beyond the requirement for the position plus maybe some minor stuff that won’t be enough to encourage additional responsibilities.

                                                    If they want more than that, employers should pay significantly more than their competitors for those services, or significant stock bonuses tied to departmental efficiency, or some other add-on compensation that incentivises increased productivity.

                                                    • marssaxman 1 year ago
                                                      > Someone has to get your work done.

                                                      What makes it "my work"? That is for management to decide, is it not?

                                                    • WalterBright 1 year ago
                                                      > Aren't we all (normal and decent people) doing this already?

                                                      I've known many such in my career. They weren't fooling anybody. Everybody knew who they were. When they'd get laid off or were passed over for a raise they were always baffled and outraged.

                                                      • sevagh 1 year ago
                                                        Until your manager and skip director are equally phoning it in and you're the only idiot being productive.
                                                        • ryandrake 1 year ago
                                                          I think this highly depends on the manager. Some know (Manager A), and either work to correct it, or get their ducks in a row to fire them. Plenty of managers, though, (Manager B) have no idea what a reasonable amount of work output is, and can be easily convinced that what took 1-2 hours to do constituted an entire 40 hour week. You get some developer who's good at "managing upward" and they'll bullshit/charm and walk all over that manager. Often these managers are themselves "managing upward" to their directors, and so on up the chain, resulting in an entire reporting line successfully doing nothing.

                                                          It doesn't matter that the slacker's peers know exactly what is going on. They're too busy doing their own work, and if they complain about it to Manager B, they won't be believed.

                                                          • AlexandrB 1 year ago
                                                            Uh huh. The more common case is they get promotion and raises like everyone else while sometimes producing -ve value. Even if there's a comeuppance one day, this can go on for years before there are any consequences.
                                                          • therealdrag0 1 year ago
                                                            No. I feel ownership and collaboration over what my team does. We prioritize, design, review, and build together (not endorsing a methodology, just a culture). It has been this way since I was a junior engineer. I want to understand and solve problems. I want to learn and build bigger and better tithings.

                                                            Punching in premade tickets for 2 hours a day sounds like you’re already dead.

                                                            • heurist 1 year ago
                                                              I've never felt secure enough to check out like this, even when my position was effectively locked in. I always want to improve and attain something bigger, so I look for problems beyond my scope when the work isn't coming to me. I feel comfort thinking I know how to take an idea through the full execution cycle due to my practice in seeking and solving problems. But it is hard for me to relax and let go.
                                                              • creesch 1 year ago
                                                                Ignoring the amount of time spend working for a moment. I would be miserable if all I got to do during that time was work on Jira tickets others created.
                                                                • leetrout 1 year ago
                                                                  > I would be miserable if all I got to do during that time was work on Jira tickets others created.

                                                                  I've seen a few places turn into "feature factories" where this is the day-to-day.

                                                                • twojobsoneboss 1 year ago
                                                                  If you’re in a team lead or staff (most places) kind of position you can’t…
                                                                  • mlhpdx 1 year ago
                                                                    No, definitely not.
                                                                  • giantg2 1 year ago
                                                                    Sounds similar to me. I didn't get laid off though, and my climb was only one actual promotion even though I was filling a tech lead position. I managed to switch teams right before the layoff/outsourcing. I tried hard on the next team and again achieved a great reputation in the department. But it meant nothing and I got nowhere. I even had a few people in the department ask why I was taking a demotion out of the group - I wasn't, they all just thought I was a higher level than I actually was... fuck the system.
                                                                    • sneak 1 year ago
                                                                      To assume all organizations reward or value expertise the same way is to cap your maximum lifetime earnings, methinks.
                                                                      • sevagh 1 year ago
                                                                        I'm in this trap right now a little bit. After a particularly egregious instance of feeling passed over for a promo, how can I trust that the next jerkoff won't do the same thing?
                                                                        • autoexecbat 1 year ago
                                                                          It's a pretty strong signal that your opinion of the value you're providing is not shared by those who are making the decisions. Regardless of if it's their own ignorance or not they aren't going to suddenly change their feelings about it.
                                                                          • blitzar 1 year ago
                                                                            > how can I trust that the next jerkoff won't do the same thing

                                                                            You 100% can trust that they will do the exact same thing, accept that you are always rolling the dice and progress at the irrational whim of some higher power in the organisation.

                                                                            • skeeter2020 1 year ago
                                                                              it's tough, but you should put some explicit thought in to what you expect, and what it's worth to you. You'll probably have to "give some of it away for free" to prove you've got something of value; the hard part is deciding when you've given enough and can leave or deliver an ultimatum. Define something you really want to do that demonstrates your value. Tell your boss explicitly what you want and how you're going to earn it. Do the thing. Ideally you'll get the reward but if not ask. Follow through on your convictions.
                                                                              • arrosenberg 1 year ago
                                                                                Control your destiny. Form an LLC and go prospect some customers on your terms.
                                                                            • 1 year ago
                                                                              • zer00eyz 1 year ago
                                                                                Did you get cut cause "we need a number" and you're expensive?

                                                                                Were you the growth guy when they need run the busies blood and guts people?

                                                                                Did they save 2 people in some other department who matter more with some horse trading?

                                                                                You can go and be a clock puncher. It's perfectly fine to do so. I know plenty of them, some got laid off recently and cant seem to find jobs. The high achiever's the go the extra mile types who are LIKED (dont be an asshole) are all working already.

                                                                                Down vote me all you want. I was here for the first (2000) tech flop. The people who went the extra mile and some safe and secure corporates were the ones who made it. Coming out the other side (the ad tech, Web 2.0 boom) there were a lot of talented, ambitious, hard working people around. Any one who wasnt that ended up in another field that made them happy.

                                                                                • diob 1 year ago
                                                                                  Might want to think a bit about survivorship bias and see how it might apply.
                                                                                  • zer00eyz 1 year ago
                                                                                    Thats the point.

                                                                                    Who survives in a down turn?

                                                                                    It's not the folks who are "pragmatic" its not the folks who give up...

                                                                                    You work with two people, Bob who punches the clock and Bill who puts in the time to get the extra work done. You move on to a new job and your boss says "we need someone new on your team, Bob and Bill are here".

                                                                                    You're not picking Bob, Bill gets your vote.

                                                                                    Dont be an asshlole be known as at the hard worker, be helpful (maybe have to do some extra work)... your going to get picked when people are looking. Your old boss is part of your network, and so are your peers (who might end up your boss)...

                                                                                    All those people who are survivors, who put in extra work, have strong networks who know that they are strong hires in a tight market.

                                                                                  • creesch 1 year ago
                                                                                    It's all well and good to include a disclaimer about downvotes. But, it is somewhat irrelevant, as the reason you are most likely to be downvoted is not because you are touching on a sensitive subject. They are downvoting you because your argument makes it very clear you actually haven't read the article.
                                                                                    • sevagh 1 year ago
                                                                                      Manager propaganda to make us go the extra mile, don't listen.
                                                                                    • 1 year ago
                                                                                      • mavelikara 1 year ago
                                                                                        If it so happens that that company was wrong in what they did, you run the risk of optimizing for the wrong things based on one bad observation. The company doesn’t care. The negatives only affect your career.
                                                                                        • swader999 1 year ago
                                                                                          You'd do better to go work hard for their competitors or create one.
                                                                                          • adra 1 year ago
                                                                                            And in the end, the terrible people won. Because you stopped caring seeming about anything, you're likely living a worse more jaded life, and your next company isn't getting a good employee.

                                                                                            Learning an important lesson isn't about flushing your aspirations down the toilet. That's just cementing your destiny as someone who will never achieve moderate success. If that's your goal, shrugs?

                                                                                            • 6th 1 year ago
                                                                                              No. Terrible people won because terrible people were in positions of power, as is the case often.

                                                                                              Good jobs, great jobs even, can and do turn to shit overnight. It's often the management itself.

                                                                                              People don't leave bad jobs they leave bad people.

                                                                                              The job is something in their life workers, in a non-slave market, can take control of.

                                                                                              There's no good reason for a person to stay working for nutters.

                                                                                              There's no good|sane reason to reward bad behavior.

                                                                                              They have ZERO obligation to fix a toxic workplace and culture.

                                                                                              That is management's failing entirely.

                                                                                              >your next company isn't getting a good employee.

                                                                                              Your next employee|team member isn't getting a good boss|colleague.

                                                                                              • interroboink 1 year ago
                                                                                                > the terrible people won ... you're likely living a worse more jaded life

                                                                                                Respectfully, I think this is rather judgemental (I realize the irony that I am judging you, too :)

                                                                                                It doesn't have to be a battle, there doesn't have to be a winner. Everybody is free to explore their limits and boundaries, and put energy into the areas of life that they find most fruitful.

                                                                                                Maybe OP really does want a kick-in-the-pants "get back in there and fight!" pep talk — in which case, ignore me. But maybe they just decided that it was not their particular hill to die on. It takes all kinds.

                                                                                                • voxl 1 year ago
                                                                                                  Life is more than your job.
                                                                                                  • roenxi 1 year ago
                                                                                                    > the terrible people won...

                                                                                                    When that dynamic takes hold, it is more that the good people failed. There is an extremely real subset of the population that gets a thrill out of telling other people what to do and damn the technical consequences of their orders. If people who are uncomfortable being in charge don't figure out a way to get over their own reservations; then guess who will hold all the positions of power? People who really want to. And not necessarily because they are nice or capable people, but because they'll say or do anything.

                                                                                                    The part that frustrates me is that technically competent people often get brutally attacked because they lack charisma. It is wildly counterproductive.

                                                                                                    • globalnode 1 year ago
                                                                                                      > flushing your aspirations down the toilet

                                                                                                      hmm, i seem to have made this a hobby of mine.

                                                                                                    • agumonkey 1 year ago
                                                                                                      My life exactly. I used to dream of a kind of high drive team, did more than I should, on obvious metrics (velocity, onboarding, performance, ..) .. but the average politics in all human groups makes it too rare and you end up suffering too much absurdities. It's a lesson in statistics and relativism.
                                                                                                      • szundi 1 year ago
                                                                                                        What about not fucking up your life and find a good comany to work for?
                                                                                                        • redserk 1 year ago
                                                                                                          How is this “fucking up [their] life”?

                                                                                                          Some people don’t care about the grindset or putting in 50hr weeks. As long as work gets done and you’re reasonably keeping your skills up to date, what does it matter?

                                                                                                          If anything it’s more of a win by gaining hours of your life back that would’ve been spent people-pleasing.

                                                                                                          • sevagh 1 year ago
                                                                                                            You can write whatever you want on a resume and nobody can tell if you burned out on both ends or phoned it in for 1-2 hours. So, no, holding a position for X years, when presented in a reasonable manner at the next interview, cannot possibly fuck your life up.
                                                                                                          • serf 1 year ago
                                                                                                            That's a hard pill to swallow after years and years of the same routine 'unsuccesses' , and it relies on the personal belief that A decent life cannot be lead without success in finance and business; I believe that's simply not the case.
                                                                                                            • lazide 1 year ago
                                                                                                              Since this is always relative, that’s like ‘why not just be rich?’ isn’t it?

                                                                                                              The devil is in the details and the ‘how’.

                                                                                                            • throwawaysleep 1 year ago
                                                                                                              Yep. After being laid off, I decided that I am best working with the diligence of a Boeing QA engineer. Do the bare minimum and use overemployment to flee the work world as fast as possible.
                                                                                                            • tuckerpo 1 year ago
                                                                                                              This puts the cart before the horse. In reality, the biggest source of untapped potential, at least anecdotally as an engineer, is that corporations tend to give grease to squeaky wheels. So, the upper quadrants in the article.

                                                                                                              If you have even a few years of industry experience, modulo being intentionally naive, you've noticed that work begets work. The 'skilled pragmatists' quietly do their jobs well. Their reward is even more work to do, without much recognition.

                                                                                                              It's analogous to software quality. It's fleetingly rare that a consumer of software writes in to let you know how great, zippy and bug-free it is. You only ever hear about how terrible things are. When things are 'good' -- that's just the expected status quo. So no reward for steadily doing good things.

                                                                                                              I'm also sure after a few years in industry you've also noticed that the Do-Nothing (TM) guy who sprints around with their head on fire gets managerial recognition, promotions, bonuses.

                                                                                                              You know the kind. They wander from meeting to meeting, initiative to initiative, never actually accomplishing anything concrete, but showing their face to management and saying a lot of nice words.

                                                                                                              Eventually, the skilled pragmatist notices this dichotomy and mentally clocks out. I've heard this anecdote many times, both in online circles and IRL.

                                                                                                              • pnathan 1 year ago
                                                                                                                Competence and promotions are two different skillsets, sometimes they intersect.

                                                                                                                I've been swept up into some of the promo-optimized guys' orbits, and it was deeply unpleasant. Lots of smoke and mirrors to execs...

                                                                                                                Good leadership optimizes for looking at ground truths, rather than yes-men. Some places succeed at that more than others...

                                                                                                                • rawgabbit 1 year ago
                                                                                                                  Very true. As an added detail, I see it comes in waves. New CTO/CIO brings in his trusted lieutenants who then bring in their trusted people. They may excel at XYZ but at your company those skills are irrelevant. Some folks who are already on staff hitch their wagon to the new powers that be. These johnny-come-latelys are also insufferable. The game continues until the CTO/CIO is let go and another house cleaning begins. During the meantime, you wonder how any real work gets done.
                                                                                                                • imzadi 1 year ago
                                                                                                                  I don't know if this is related, but growing up there were certain values instilled in me that went something like "don't toot your own horn," "it's better to be seen and not heard," "keep your head down," etc. The main gist being that I should just do my job quietly, competently, and stay out of the way.

                                                                                                                  In practice, this resulted in me being effectively invisible to management, even when I was out-performing everyone else on the team. The guys who were loud and boisterous and constantly cawing about their achievements got all the raises and promotions, even though I was consistently doing more and better work. This came to a head when someone with far less seniority was promoted over me. I brought it up with my boss who said something like "I don't even know what you do all day. I never hear from you." The guy who was promoted would literally spend twice as much time boasting about what he was doing that actually doing it. I was objectively more productive, as in, there were metrics showing my productivity was significantly higher, but since I wasn't talking about what I was doing, I was unseen.

                                                                                                                  • nickff 1 year ago
                                                                                                                    I obviously don't know enough about your particular situation to be an informed judge, but... it really sounds like the management team is operating in a reactive mode, rather than a proactive one, and as a result, they don't understand what's really going on inside the company. It doesn't bode well for their understanding of what's going on outside the company either. This kind of disconnect is often costly, sometimes fatal.
                                                                                                                    • therealdrag0 1 year ago
                                                                                                                      Congrats you don’t have a micromanager. But the flip side of that is you need to check in with them. That’s both of your fault, but you can only control you. You should at least have a “win/impact” document where you track what you’ve done and share with your manager.
                                                                                                                      • abenga 1 year ago
                                                                                                                        I also try to work effectively but quietly, but an epiphany I had after working on a couple of technically interesting problems I thought were a big deal but were met with "k, thanks, bye" after being finished was the question: "if you don't talk to people about what you're working on, how do you even know it is desired by the org?"
                                                                                                                        • Lacerda69 1 year ago
                                                                                                                          On the other hand I have worked with team mates that just don't communicate what they are doing. I always got the feeling that they either don't do anything at all or work on things that are completely irrelevant.

                                                                                                                          Over time I tend to develop a poor opinion of these people.

                                                                                                                          Communicate what your accomplishments are and why they are important for the business and you will be fine.

                                                                                                                          Everything else is kindergarten.

                                                                                                                          • 1 year ago
                                                                                                                          • NateEag 1 year ago
                                                                                                                            This is an appealing narrative without evidence.

                                                                                                                            How does the author know Marias make up the majority of most companies? Where's the data supporting that claim?

                                                                                                                            It may be true - it sounds plausible to those of us who've been a Maria in the salt mines of a dysfunctional company.

                                                                                                                            It appeals to us to think we're the hidden gems the company needs to invest in.

                                                                                                                            Something being appealing doesn't make it true, though, even if you can tell a just-so story about it.

                                                                                                                            • mlhpdx 1 year ago
                                                                                                                              > This is an appealing narrative without evidence.

                                                                                                                              I had the same thought, but I’m grateful to the author for putting their opinions out for us to see.

                                                                                                                              It is an interesting quandary - getting “more” from someone, pragmatic or otherwise, raises questions. Is the premise that they aren’t providing value on a level with salary? Or, is it that the business has a right/obligation to extract more? The latter is offensive, fundamentally because “value” may be arbitrarily (perhaps capriciously) determined.

                                                                                                                              On the other hand, I find the folks suggesting that doing an hours work a day is fine. It’s not. That’s equally offensive.

                                                                                                                              • OkayPhysicist 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                Labor relations are intrinsically adversarial. The employer wants to pay as little as they can get away with for as much work as possible, the employee wants to be paid as much as possible for as little work as they can get away with.

                                                                                                                                This article is written for the employer's side, trying to optimize their game. The employees trying to normalize working approximately nothing are optimizing their side.

                                                                                                                                It's not offensive, it's just economics.

                                                                                                                                • bb88 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                  Many employees are trying to minimize their work. (Do we really need to fill out 10 TPS reports that no one reads?) Often the ones who are doing the most menial tasks would definitely want to do something else more meaningful

                                                                                                                                  Not everyone wants to work less. Many want a path to make an impact to the organization, but don't see how. They'd rather just be quiet engineers/accountants/office workers/etc.

                                                                                                                                  • mlhpdx 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                    As an employer/owner/investor I’m not trying to minimize expenses I’m trying to maximize growth/value. Abusing people is not a path to success by that metric.
                                                                                                                                • therealdrag0 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                  I don’t know how to out this “correctly”. But some of these developer complains remind me of the whole “incel” situation, where people rather complain about how the world works instead of improving themselves or learning how to excel in it.

                                                                                                                                  Sure some people are conflict adverse, but some conflict aversion is healthy (there shouldn’t be physical or verbal fights at work) while some is being introverted or on the spectrum or lazy to a degree that the rest of the world shouldn’t be expected to bend to.

                                                                                                                                  The way the author puts it I’m not even sure what the untapped potential even is. They describe these 75% as “doing what they can”. Okay so they’re just worker bees. That’s fine. What’s the problem?

                                                                                                                                  • lucianbr 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                    There's some useful insight here even if the percents are wrong. Whatever the numbers, even if 10% are Marias, they're still an untapped resource, if not "the biggest". And the fact that some of us have been this person proves the percentage is not zero.

                                                                                                                                    Feels like you found a small inaccuracy in the text, and jumped up "Aha! Everything you said is wrong!". Also an appealing narrative.

                                                                                                                                    • ryandrake 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                      Yea, everyone is nit-picking the numbers... Where's the evidence? Where's the citations? Not everything is a paper in an academic publication. The quadrants themselves hold up and anecdotally match my experiences over decades of work. I can easily remember people I've worked with in each quadrant, and yes, the lower-right (whatever percent they are) are totally underutilized and mostly invisible.
                                                                                                                                      • bb88 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                        Hacker News never is, and never was a place for academic arguments.
                                                                                                                                      • NateEag 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                        > There's some useful insight here even if the percents are wrong. Whatever the numbers, even if 10% are Marias, they're still an untapped resource, if not "the biggest". And the fact that some of us have been this person proves the percentage is not zero.

                                                                                                                                        All very fair and good points.

                                                                                                                                        The author does make a strong claim, though, and I'm asking if there's evidence to back it up.

                                                                                                                                        I probably wouldn't if they'd written "Some people are underused by their companies because they're Marias," which is a much smaller claim but still a perfectly fine basis for moving on to a discussion of how to get more value from those employees.

                                                                                                                                        > Feels like you found a small inaccuracy in the text, and jumped up "Aha! Everything you said is wrong!". Also an appealing narrative.

                                                                                                                                        Would you show me where you see this? I reread what I wrote and I'm not finding that, but maybe I'm just missing it.

                                                                                                                                      • fortani 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                        I left a comment elsewhere on this thread, but here's an interesting quote by General Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord, an anti-Nazi WWII general.

                                                                                                                                        "I distinguish four types. There are clever, hardworking, stupid, and lazy officers. Usually two characteristics are combined. Some are clever and hardworking; their place is the General Staff. The next ones are stupid and lazy; they make up 90 percent of every army and are suited to routine duties. Anyone who is both clever and lazy is qualified for the highest leadership duties, because he possesses the mental clarity and strength of nerve necessary for difficult decisions. One must beware of anyone who is both stupid and hardworking; he must not be entrusted with any responsibility because he will always only cause damage."

                                                                                                                                        So according to him, most people seem to fall into the bucket of being lazy and stupid, which is closer to reality. "Skilled pragmatists" seem to map into what he terms "clever and lazy".

                                                                                                                                      • hinkley 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                        I don’t think I can agree that 75% of the workforce falls into one quadrant. Particularly this one.

                                                                                                                                        If I’m very lucky the semi space contains 60% of my coworkers, if I’m unlucky (or arrive after the writing is on the wall) it’s more like 1/3.

                                                                                                                                        I suspect part of the confusion is that there are some people with enough political acumen to appear like frustrated agents of change without actually having the drive or skill to do so. If you create opportunities for these people to show up, you may be shocked to find them making excuses for why they still can’t.

                                                                                                                                        And truthfully the industry is not full of untapped brilliant people. It isn’t even “full” of brilliant people period. maybe 1/4 of the human population could be counted as very smart, and we get a disproportionate share of them for sure, but it’s definitely not more than half.

                                                                                                                                        • kerblang 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                          I agree: It's not 75%. But you're suddenly substituting the word "brilliant" for "pragmatic" and that's kinda questionable. It might be that you define brilliant differently than some others, so that IQ is much less significant than pragmatism itself in your equation of brilliance; but if you think IQ -> pragmatic, I disagree. I think they're orthogonal.
                                                                                                                                          • hinkley 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                            Yeah that might have been a poor word choice or projection on my part.

                                                                                                                                            As I replied elsewhere, I feel I am in this quadrant and I often actively look for sympathetic people among bosses and peers to talk to about it. If there are more than ten people I have someone to talk to, but it’s never been anywhere near 75%. And one time I got a very rude awakening when I discovered several of those people were all sizzle and no sausage.

                                                                                                                                            • kerblang 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                              Okay, good. As authentic "pragmatism" goes, the author conveys a sense of cynical pragmatist-in-waiting rather than activist pragmatist-in-action; I would do the pragmatic thing, and yes, I'm smart enough, but not if there's risk. So, you're surrounded by invisible pragmatists, but these are the kind of pragmatists who sometimes burn you for profit outright, but mostly just look the other way while someone else does it - if that's where the money is. Well, yeah, but what else is new?
                                                                                                                                          • keybored 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                            TFA said

                                                                                                                                            > The biggest source of waste is untapped skilled pragmatists.

                                                                                                                                            Nothing about brilliant there. Just skilled and pragmatic.

                                                                                                                                            You’re trying to cool head/cold shower the idea but you’re just substituing the narrative for HN’s favorite pastime of talking about high IQ/brilliance for the sake of it.

                                                                                                                                            • bjornsing 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                              > maybe 1/4 of the human population could be counted as very smart

                                                                                                                                              That’s a very generous assessment. To me someone who’s “brilliant” is more like 1/1000.

                                                                                                                                              • ericmcer 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                Yeah agree, I have worked with tons of smart people, talented people, people whose parents had them coding in elementary school, but only one person I would consider brilliant.

                                                                                                                                                It was jarring how he instantly understood any line of reasoning I was going down. There was no need for context or lengthy background explanations, he would just see what you were doing. That was in most areas also, politics, programming, philosophy, etc.

                                                                                                                                                It was refreshing because conveying information to him was effortless, he needed like 20% of the info that is usually required when explaining something to another person. I don't know how one could achieve that other than just being gifted at absorbing and processing information.

                                                                                                                                                • hinkley 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                  He was probably an HSP, which by some estimates is 15% of the population. HSP plus high IQ makes up a lot of people you would label “scary smart”.
                                                                                                                                                • 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                • MichaelZuo 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                  Even that's a very high estimate.

                                                                                                                                                  Maybe there are 8 million bonafide geniuses on Earth, and maybe 80 million very smart people, at max.

                                                                                                                                                  And being very generous to the US, maybe a tenth of them are full time residents somewhere in the 50 states plus DC.

                                                                                                                                                  Claims that a meaningfully large portion of them are being 'wasted', are hard to believe since there aren't that many to begin with.

                                                                                                                                                  • hinkley 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                    To be clear, I feel the author is describing me, and the loneliness and alienation I have felt too often at work tells me he’s using a lot of hyperbole.

                                                                                                                                                    If we form a lunch group to complain about our frustrations, it’s never been more than about four people, even in a team of dozens or more. Three is more common.

                                                                                                                                                    That said, he may be telling the truth with lies - this sort of untapped resource can have outsized impacts on a business, for good or ill.

                                                                                                                                                  • skeeter2020 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                    I don't even think Pragmatists are "smart", or if they are it shows it self in the non-book ways. I'd be more inclined to describe them as "clever". If you've heard the "Smart, and gets stuff done" ideal, they're more of the latter.
                                                                                                                                                    • hinkley 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                      I would propose it’s the old “wisdom vs intelligence” problem.

                                                                                                                                                      The pragmatist has a better grasp on can vs should.

                                                                                                                                                    • ultrasaurus 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                      Maybe 75% of the people who interact with the kind of person who blogs about institutional efficiency for the HN audience hate conflict but love their craft. Maybe on a good day.

                                                                                                                                                      The top 3 jobs in the US are home health care, retail sales and fast food. Not to denigrate any of those roles but I can't imagine 75% of them saying "X is her passion, but she's not about to burn a lot of social capital by rocking the boat". (I'm skipping over the "skilled" part, but substitute accountants & project managers and I still don't see getting to 75%)

                                                                                                                                                    • clintonc 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                      This reads as a cynical description by someone who identifies as a "skilled pragmatist" (as I do, incidentally), but it doesn't seem to have a useful point of view. For example, "playing the system" and "making waves" have other names -- "driving initiatives" and "cross-team collaboration". They seem like "mushy" phrases because they are not well-defined sets of tasks like "deliver feature A" can become.

                                                                                                                                                      Are skilled pragmatists undervalued? Maybe, but this article doesn't do an good job of making me believe that.

                                                                                                                                                      • bloodyplonker22 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                        As much as I dislike politics, honestly, it sounds like he was out-maneuvered by someone who works less hard. Think Frank Grimes.
                                                                                                                                                      • swagasaurus-rex 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                        Enployees need three things to avoid becoming an uninspired cog:

                                                                                                                                                        1) Control

                                                                                                                                                        2) Responsibility

                                                                                                                                                        3) Recognition

                                                                                                                                                        Control and responsibility of a project but no recognition will demotivate quickly

                                                                                                                                                        Responsibility and recognition with no control means they’re a scapegoat for when things bad

                                                                                                                                                        Recognition and control with no responsibility is like a third party who will take credit but has no reason to ensure success

                                                                                                                                                        All three need to happen for an employee to care. If an employee is missing one or two of the three, they’ll feel it in their work

                                                                                                                                                        • sevagh 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                          Do you count financial reward under recognition? Lot of places are generous with non-financial recognition but stingy with the monetary recognition.
                                                                                                                                                          • dier 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                            short answer: yes

                                                                                                                                                            it's recognition from the individual's perspective. think love languages. one person's recognition might be salary because they make $35,000/yr and another's isn't financial. they are doing this because retirement is boring.

                                                                                                                                                            in practice it is often a combination with different ratios.

                                                                                                                                                            as an employee it is advantageous to think about what makes you feel recognized and work with your manager on it. if it's monetary and they're stingy then your values won't align and you will be frustrated.

                                                                                                                                                          • UncleOxidant 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                            But the greatest of these things is Control.
                                                                                                                                                            • __experiment__ 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                              there are different people who value different things.

                                                                                                                                                              some value more control

                                                                                                                                                              some value more responsibility

                                                                                                                                                              some value more recognition

                                                                                                                                                            • cousin_it 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                              I think the root cause of why managers reward flashy employees over useful ones is because managers are clueless about the work itself. The more a manager understands the work, on a micro level, the more they'll be able to judge it accurately. Note that it doesn't mean micromanagement: you must understand the details, but stop yourself from second-guessing the employees on these details. And it doesn't mean you can't delegate: as long as you have intimate understanding of the details, you're free to delegate and be as hands-off as you want. In fact the best way to delegate is to learn to do the thing well yourself, then delegate it to someone and do occasional spot checks on them.
                                                                                                                                                              • zamalek 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                Very recently two other engineers had a long debate on a PR of mine that really had no material impact one way or another. My approach rang true with the article: "they can sort it out."

                                                                                                                                                                I do enjoy a certain degree of challenge at work, though, to be more precise less anti-challenge (high friction, high ceremony work). I will invent work, especially if I'm experiencing paper-cuts: e.g. I spend a stupid amount of time improving CI speed. It's thankless and invisible, but makes the mundane more bearable (nothing is worse than trying to push mundane work through flaky CI).

                                                                                                                                                                Edit: this entire perspective comes from having given a huge damn at one point. The one-sided relationship with an employer taught me the inevitable, and very hard, lesson. Barry is one acquisition away from becoming Maria.

                                                                                                                                                                • dkarl 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                  I strongly buy the premise of this article, and it goes beyond people who try to fly under the radar and blend in because of toxic politics. Even in companies without toxic politics, a lot of managers subconsciously overestimate the abilities of engineers who regularly propose ambitious, complex solutions, and underestimate the abilities of engineers who are more leery of complexity. This not only leads to unnecessary boondoggle projects, it also results in managers not assigning challenging work to engineers who are quite capable of doing it, which is the waste the article describes.

                                                                                                                                                                  I was fortunate early in my career to have managers who had strong technical judgment themselves and rewarded it in their engineers, managers who spent their innovation tokens but spent them very carefully, so later in my career I was able to recognize when I had managers who relied on crude heuristics like assuming the engineers who proposed the most complex projects had the best judgment and the best ability to execute.

                                                                                                                                                                  One simple hack I use all the time, regardless of my manager's personality, is to say, "It would be fun." As in, "It would be fun to handle this with an event-driven system using Kafka. We could build an incredibly scalable and resilient system that way. I'd love to tackle a project like that, but I don't think we can justify it, because it would take more time and more engineers to build and be more expensive to operate, and I think our existing system only needs a few tweaks to what we need, even if we execute on our entire product roadmap and exceed our sales goals. I think we should take a careful look at tweaking the existing system, and if that won't get us what we need, we might have to build the more expensive solution."

                                                                                                                                                                  This lets me advertise my awareness of a fancier architectural solution, as well as my ability and willingness to execute on it, without actually saying that it's a good idea.

                                                                                                                                                                  • jabroni_salad 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                    To me, pragmatism is set of knives by which I decide what to leave on the cutting room floor. The biggest one I have is that there are only so many hours in a day but more issues on the board than can fit into it. The second one is that my time billable, and anything that doesnt count towards my utilization is de facto not valued by the company.

                                                                                                                                                                    The overrunning theme seems to be 'how do we get more from a pragmatist' but my response is you can look at my todo list and rearrange it whenever you want. I am happy with my work, the metrics are on target, the feedback I get from clients is great and they ask for me on their future projects. Only one person is unahppy and its the guy who squints at spreadsheets all day. I think he is the one who is wrong.

                                                                                                                                                                    • frank_nitti 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                      This took me a while to appreciate, but it tracks perfectly with what I’ve observed from veteran ICs who actually seem content with their careers.

                                                                                                                                                                      Fresh out of school it was almost frustrating to have a senior colleague say “hold off on that” in response to my attempts to go above and beyond (on items not specified or prioritized by leadership). I wanted to build great systems and was constantly looking for challenges that would align with the team/customer outcomes, so why wouldn’t they just let me “flourish” and show the team how much value I can deliver?!

                                                                                                                                                                      After going remote, with nobody to physically see me donating my time and energy to an unworthy cause, did I get to finally learn this the hard way. Bailing out incompetent leaders and weaker engineers to get deliverables across the finish line, which they were happy to claim as personal achievements, and to forget the many late nights they pleaded for help to salvage another unholy mess they had created while flying completely blind in the modern tech world.

                                                                                                                                                                      I’ll need to keep some sound bites from your comment close to the heart, as I work to set better boundaries and use that extra energy toward outcomes that are even 5% worth the effort.

                                                                                                                                                                    • klabb3 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                      Insanely spot on, for once (most of organizational analyses are not).

                                                                                                                                                                      Another fun thing pointed out in the article is the obsession over weeding out poor performers, ie the lazy ones. My theory is that it’s done solely to scare everyone else to work harder, whatever that means exactly. It’s about creating a culture of constant busyness which is only really a good proxy for work in domains that don’t require long term thinking. For engineers, it’s detrimental.

                                                                                                                                                                      If you wanna go after the ones who are contributing the least value, why obsess over the lazy? There are sooo many examples of people who added huge negative value, from the rockstars who create an unmaintainable mess to some product manager that re-steers the ship and changes something that was completely fine the way it was. Especially when they leave the mess behind which opportunists often do. Dead weight is nothing compared to the whales that swim towards the bottom and drag the rest of them down.

                                                                                                                                                                      • jasonlotito 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                        This is from part 2, but wow...

                                                                                                                                                                        > Do not use mushy words like ... ownership,

                                                                                                                                                                        If you think ownership is just mushy words, you've never given someone ownership. Giving someone ownership isn't just mush. It's real, and can have real impact. Of course, this also literally means giving them some actual, real, legal ownership in that project and it's results.

                                                                                                                                                                        This is especially hypocritical when paired with an "actual example"

                                                                                                                                                                        > The intended outcome is to increase the rate at which we create value for customers, facilitate easier troubleshooting, decrease downtime, enable more developers to work across different code bases seamlessly and improve developer morale.

                                                                                                                                                                        Talk about mush. That's just one part of a completely mushy "behavioral statement" that just reeks of insincerity and mush. This is also covered under specifics, and the entire thing lacks ANY specifics.

                                                                                                                                                                        Give them ownership. Real ownership, not this fake "ownership" that clearly comes from someone who doesn't know what the word means. Give them power to drive direction and results, and reward them for that.

                                                                                                                                                                        There are more things that could be said about this, but honestly, reading that, it just screamed hypocrisy.

                                                                                                                                                                        • SlavikCA 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                          Ownership becomes mushy word, when you get to own duty and lack the power to make decisions.

                                                                                                                                                                          Manager: you need to take ownership, meaning that you figure out requirements (and get the blame when requirements changes), you make the product and project decision (and get the blame, when for outcomes), you find all the people needed to figure out deploy details and no, you can't make decision about what we're using in production.

                                                                                                                                                                          Employee: I'm better figure out how to cover my butt...

                                                                                                                                                                          • lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                            That line you cherry-picked is in the context of what someone else wants:

                                                                                                                                                                            > Here is an example I worked out with a real person, imagining what they hoped the Marias on their team would do more often. In their mind, this is what "going above and beyond" looks like.

                                                                                                                                                                            I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the author also thinks the statement in your second pull quote is mushy. It sounds about as mushy as the "fake ownership" stuff.

                                                                                                                                                                            • xyzelement 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                              I disagree with you. I spent most of my career in a great company that is privately owned (famous billionaire.) The company pays extremely well but does not provide any sort of "legal ownership" as you describe.

                                                                                                                                                                              Still, I felt massive ownership of stuff I've .. well .. "owned" and I benefited financially and emotionally from it. I am no longer at the company but I have pride in what I've built there and the fact that it still exists and generates tremendous value.

                                                                                                                                                                              On the financial side of things, people (leadership) think of certain people as owning/driving certain things, because we do. So even though I am not the legal owner of platform X, you go get to have some good reviews for having created and nurtured that thing which is now creating goodness.

                                                                                                                                                                              After I left the company, my wife and I were in the south of Argentina on an ice trek. Started talking to a fellow trekker, who turns out what in finance. I told him that I used to be in finance and had built systems X and Y - and he was like "you're the guy?! I use those things every day, they are game changing in our industry." That felt very good.

                                                                                                                                                                              Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a chunk of equity in that company but it doesn't matter - I am still very happy in how "ownership mentality" worked out in terms of $ and pride.

                                                                                                                                                                              To be clear it takes two to tango. I'd never operate like this in a place that didn't reward me for operating this way.

                                                                                                                                                                              • Jerrrry 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                >>I told him that I used to be in [z] and had built systems X and Y - and he was like "you're the guy?! I use those things every day, they are game changing in our industry." That felt very good.

                                                                                                                                                                                It is taken a bit for granted, developers' massive ability to impact the workflow, and thus morale, for a significant amount of people; for better or for worse.

                                                                                                                                                                                Knowing my 15 minute coffee HTML exercise can save 500+ people 10+ minutes daily, with a near instant feedback loop, was about as resolved as I could had been.

                                                                                                                                                                                It plays into the need to be needed, the inverse of the fear of being replaced, the most basic innate thought in our psyche's.

                                                                                                                                                                              • hedora 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                The stuff you quoted as “mush” can be continuously quantified as part of normal ongoing business.

                                                                                                                                                                                Legal ownership can’t be quantified in that way. You’d need to go to court and have a judge decide who really owns the product and liability, and then evaluate that person / entity’s job performance.

                                                                                                                                                                                To use an aviation analogy, you’re proposing replacing randomly spot checking of assemblies for properly tightened bolts, etc., with the legal shell game that Boeing currently uses.

                                                                                                                                                                                The spot checks would have been less expensive upfront, and also alerted them to their current issues 5-10 years earlier. At that point it would have been trivial to fix.

                                                                                                                                                                                • jf22 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                  How are you using the word hypocrisy here?
                                                                                                                                                                                • fortani 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                  "I divide my officers into four groups. There are clever, diligent, stupid, and lazy officers. Usually two characteristics are combined. Some are clever and diligent — their place is the General Staff. The next lot are stupid and lazy — they make up 90 percent of every army and are suited to routine duties. Anyone who is both clever and lazy is qualified for the highest leadership duties, because he possesses the intellectual clarity and the composure necessary for difficult decisions. One must beware of anyone who is stupid and diligent — he must not be entrusted with any responsibility because he will always cause only mischief."

                                                                                                                                                                                  Kurt von Hammerstein-Equord

                                                                                                                                                                                  This is an interesting quote from a WWII General. So "skilled pragmatists" seems to map to what Kurt terms as clever and lazy. But it also means that most people are lazy and stupid.

                                                                                                                                                                                  • hiAndrewQuinn 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                    I'm more interested in figuring out what kind of knowledge base most reliably turns a junior dev into a "skilled pragmatist".

                                                                                                                                                                                    My guess is the highest ROI thing one can do in software engineering is take your command line environment and OS internals seriously to heart. This can be either bash/Unix or PowerShell/Windows, depending on your career goals, although having gotten reasonably good with both sets I'd recommend the former. Wherever you go, you'll have that ultra portable knowledge to rely on, and do in 10 lol minutes what might take your coworkers 20 or 30.

                                                                                                                                                                                    • from-nibly 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                      shaving 20 minutes off a task is useless unless it's something that happens constantly. The real differentiator will be, do you know you can do something, that others in your org think is impossible? Can you turn a 6 month project into a half day script and move on?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Also there isn't "A knowledge base" that turns a junior dev into a "skilled pragmatist". It comes from being a part of delivering value all the way up and down the stack. There unfortunately isn't a book that can really teach you that. You gotta build that in yourself on your own through experience.

                                                                                                                                                                                    • schaefer 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                      There are many assertions of facts in this blog article, for example: 75% skilled pragmatists. Do any of these facts have citations?

                                                                                                                                                                                      Even if the author were to directly state they are his observations as a developer, it would have more value than absolutely no citation.

                                                                                                                                                                                      As written, these facts are giving me a very made up or "story time" vibe.

                                                                                                                                                                                      • netbioserror 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                        Interesting model. Reminds me of all the methods of breaking down game players (e.g. honers vs. innovators, Jimmys vs. Timmys, etc.). I'm very lucky to work at a small shop that can't afford the other three sectors; there are too few of us, each of us needs to impactfully improve our part of the product stack. In fact, we each basically have full ownership of our part of the product stack. Yes, I know, bus factor. But when we're a team of 7 with a fair number of software components all connected together, each one needs a clear vision. Also luckily, we do team interviews; it's fairly easy for us to suss out BS and identify matching competent people who fit the pragmatist mold.
                                                                                                                                                                                        • DylanDmitri 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                          Breaks down to: (1) build trust with your people, then (2) give them autonomy to guide their own work. The inverse of "Seeing Like a State".
                                                                                                                                                                                          • mlhpdx 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                            That’s the magic. I’m not sure why so many fight this simple, reliable approach.
                                                                                                                                                                                          • TheGRS 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                            This post is an introduction to the idea and then as a Part 2 for actions to take. For anyone who hasn't continued into Part 2, it goes into first steps on listening to different performers in your company and basically doing research on what makes everyone tick. There will be a follow-up Part 3. Just want to say that's an interesting way to blog, but a little unsatisfying since I'm not sure if I'll keep coming back for new updates every week.

                                                                                                                                                                                            Interesting topic though! I consider myself both self-motivated and a little lazy at heart so I think I fall into the skilled pragmatist. For me personally it was that realization that I wasn't going to be the 4.0 student, but that I could still get a great 3.5 by doing a lot less work. Sometimes I crank out tons of extra work that helps various people by the simple virtue that its interesting to me. So I think this is hitting a chord with me somewhere.

                                                                                                                                                                                            I find myself in management these days, and the people I manage are all great and talented and as far as I can tell no one is upset with my laissez-faire management style. But I'm always wanting to find how to make the job more interesting for them. The roadmap can often be kind of boring work. When we have interesting projects the work just flies by and you can see the satisfaction on everyone's faces. Would love to just have more of that.

                                                                                                                                                                                            • almostnormal 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                              > This post is an introduction to the idea and then as a Part 2 for actions to take.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks for mentioning it, I missed the link to part 2.

                                                                                                                                                                                              I don't think I can see the connection between the two parts though. Part 1 places people on two axis "cares" and "conflicts", with the largest number high on "cares" and low on "conflict". It seemed high on "cares" is desirable, and that getting more people to voice their oppinions (higher on "conflict") would be an improvement.

                                                                                                                                                                                              Part 2 puts people on a single axis of how likely they are going to embed clean-up changes in their PRs. This is unlikely to be the "conflict" axis from part 1. If it is the "cares" axis, 75% would already show the desired behavior, with not much untapped potential remaining. Part 2 then continues by asking people about their oppinions. With most people on the lower half of the part 1 "conflict" axis it is surprising that everyone does even have an oppinion.

                                                                                                                                                                                              I'll place myself high on the "conflict" axis with this: Clean-up should not be hidden in other PRs. It increases time needed for review and risk for collisions. It also increases the effort required for an analysis of the history in a distant future. Separate PRs for clean-up.

                                                                                                                                                                                            • csours 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                              I can't give my boss any work they don't want to do.

                                                                                                                                                                                              If I find a problem in another team's domain, I can try to interest them in it, and failing that, I can try to interest my boss in it, but if no one gets interested enough to fix the thing, what am I going to do? Work around the problem and sulk.

                                                                                                                                                                                              See Also: Glue Work

                                                                                                                                                                                              https://noidea.dog/glue

                                                                                                                                                                                              • dbrueck 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                Part of me feels like the untapped potential is just one of many symptoms of all of the dysfunction going on, and if you can fix some of the dysfunction, then you'd not only unleash some of that potential but fix a bunch of other problems at the same time.
                                                                                                                                                                                                • jongjong 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                  This is assuming that the skilled pragmatists are even employed to begin with. What I'm seeing is that they've been steadily getting pushed out of the industry. There have been many highly skilled open source devs who left the industry because they can't deal with the bureaucracy and nonsense anymore.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  The dispassionate, status-oriented bureaucrat seems to have the upper hand; and they appear to have the majority necessary to get their way in the centers of power.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  We have a bad case of the blind leading the visionaries.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • bilsbie 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                    I’d add that this breakdown needs to include the naive. I found most overworkers never thought about questioning the purpose to tasks or working long hours.
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • mattgreenrocks 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                      It feels like a common institutional problem is the people who push more of their identity into the institution get disproportionately rewarded over time for their (sometimes ill-considered) sacrifice, which causes them to seek out other people like them, which causes the org to select for that over time. And other people see this, respond with, “I don’t want that,” and put up boundaries like you see discussed here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Orgs love to say they like results, and they do — to a certain extent. There’s a ceiling on it that isn’t there if you are coded by other people as One Of Us. This is wholly different from being a yes-man, of course. It can’t be too obvious you’re playing this game or people don’t like it…probably because it reminds some people of the gamble they’re making there. I’ll wager that some people are honest enough to say, “well how else should we treat loyalty?” And others would say, “well that’s what they chose for their life, so they should be rewarded.” Both answers really just serve to entrench no-life-ism, though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      IMO, hovering on the border of engagement/disengagement is not a problem. People tend to oscillate back and forth there naturally. Work is fundamentally a transactional relationship that can sometimes confer meaning, intellectual stimulation, social connections, and structure. And sometimes it fails at some or all of those.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Expecting it to always provide those things is delusional. Keeping the transactional nature in mind without being a jerk keeps expectations grounded. We should be far more suspicious of those who are constantly parading their love of work on social media.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • JohnMakin 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'd categorize myself as a "Barry" - which he seems to define in part II of this blog post as someone who is willing to take great personal and career risks to rock the boat, and will even risk getting fired to get their job done - it has usually cost me a lot in whatever organization I end up in. I think these people eventually become skilled pragmatists when burnt out, but I'm not sure he has any insight in these posts about how people become a "Maria."

                                                                                                                                                                                                        IMO it's when Barry's finally realize that working their ass off and taking risk for the betterment of a company or leadership team that will not hesitate to take advantage of a Barry and/or ruthlessly cut him down when convenient. I guess by author's definition if a Barry became a Maria, he was never a Barry to begin with, but I do think this happens a lot. I see it in my own career path, with myself and some of my peers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        • 22c 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                          I enjoyed part 1 of the article and began reading part 2 where it mentions Barry a few times, but when I read and re-read part 1 I see no mention of Barry.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          FWIW I think that Barry becoming a Maria is entirely possible and consistent with the age old "5 Monkeys" office fax meme.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          https://i.snipboard.io/kdu77.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                                        • gr4vityWall 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                          I fail to see how trying to get more out of Maria would make any thing better for Maria herself.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          • analog31 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                            ... And she knows it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          • fuzzfactor 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                            From the final paragraph of Part 2:

                                                                                                                                                                                                            >Instead of “getting more out of” people, think about “achieve more together, and for each other.”

                                                                                                                                                                                                            You can't herd cats without being an integral part of the herd.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            • meowAJ16 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                              There is no way 80% of people care about craft and impact. There are books on creating impact even when employees don't care about impact.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              It's hard to find people who care about their craft.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              • AndyNemmity 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                This might accurately describe me, although I am very challenged in what I do.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                I guess I find the intersection between what I do, and other people, to be a waste of time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Whenever I try to bring other people into the mix, they tend to misunderstand, and I spend so much time correcting them, it's hard to get value out of the process.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                I do get value out of the process (did today), but it often feels like I am increasing my effort exponentially for very little.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                • cyberbender 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've seen this firsthand...I think it is less of an issue at smaller companies where taking initiative and leaning into their intelligence is less politically restricted. At large organizations, often it requires too much energy for them navigate the bureaucracy and tap into their potential.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • bb88 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As the saying goes:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "If you stick your head up above the cube wall, prepare to have it decapitated."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • mtreis86 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Biggest waste I see is people arguing over equally good options. Flip a coin and go.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • cebert 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I can appreciate the some of the frustrations many here raise with corporate work culture. However, in reality, you need to sell the value you bring. If you see more junior folk or good folk who don’t highlight their own value, help bring visibility. If you don’t highlight your value and peers you appreciate, you risk it not being recognized. Don’t let the good people lose out in the game. Help get good people promoted and into positions of power.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • aubanel 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Putting "cut-throat bureaucrats" in the "do not care for impact" side of the axis seems unnatural to me: I think these people do care for impact, and that's why they are so decided about imposing their ways. But their definition of impact is "doing things the right way", which corrupts their want for improvement into a pile of processes.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • chrisgd 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It’s crazy we still hire so slowly and fire so quickly when it should be the exact opposite.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • icedchai 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Many companies are afraid of being sued or "ruining their reputation" through too many firings. Instead, they waste much more on wasted salaries and ruin their reputation internally by keeping useless people around.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • chatmasta 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Why are all four quadrants bad contributors? Surely that’s a bit cynical?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • xyst 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have found that Fortune 500 companies are usually the worst when it comes to this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If you want to get shit done, don’t work at a soulless corporation. These are glorified retirement homes for people.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Have had the unfortunate experience with having to hand hold what’s been described as “20+ YoE industry veterans” through the fucking basics of oauth.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • namuol 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The article’s thesis is based on the assumption that most contributors care a good deal about the business and/or their craft. I just don’t see that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • 1 year ago
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                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • seporterfield 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Real
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • billtsedong 1 year ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Honestly if that guy was my manager, I'd quit no matter what. I'm already selling 1/3 of my lifetime just to be able to eat, so no freaking way I'd contribute to someone already robbing me of the most valuable resource one can have.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • fotran0922 1 year ago
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