Ancient Chesapeake site challenges timeline of humans in the Americas

62 points by pge 1 year ago | 50 comments
  • twarge 1 year ago
    Linguistic evidence of the same timeline.

    https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=64074

    The controversy claimed is entirely overblown. Longer timelines for migration have been discussed widely for quite a while.

    I completely understand not wanting to bother with peer review but generally your peers want a good result to be published.

    • throwup238 1 year ago
      Yeah I think the scientist just has a chip on his shoulder or the journalist wanted to sell a more interesting story. I think the real controversy boils down to this:

      > But the geological record is like reading the CliffsNotes version of a book, and he was frustrated by an “unconformity” in the sediment layers where thousands of years were missing, like someone had ripped out those chapters.

      It’s an island and they’re not the most reliable for dating sediment layers - they’re not exactly closed systems.

      I haven’t read his book but I can totally see a case for skepticism over the precise dating. It’s a common trick/error to play fast and loose with carbon dating calibration standards and sample collection to get better numbers. It’s hard to get right in the best of times and the results have to be taken in context.

      • WarOnPrivacy 1 year ago
        > The controversy claimed is entirely overblown. Longer timelines for migration have been discussed widely for quite a while.

        Are you saying that: Effective, significant resistance to pre-Clovis theories wasn't a thing in the latter 20th cent ?

        • llm_trw 1 year ago
          The current year is 2024. There are phds out there who were born after 2000.
          • WarOnPrivacy 1 year ago
            Sure but a mindset that is dominant enough to influence the direction of research can reasonably be expected to persist - even though there's turnover in the field.
      • lebuffon 1 year ago
        There is an elephant in the room in my opinion on the matter of a migration to N. America across the atlantic, however I have not read a definitive evaluation of this piece of evidence.

        There exists, mostly in the northern tribes (Ojibwa 27%, Sioux 15%) mtDNA of the X type. As I understand it the other highest group in the world is the Druze population in the Levant. (27%) What it all means is above my pay grade.

        Background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)

        • brudgers 1 year ago
          • DoreenMichele 1 year ago
            A bigger issue may be the site’s rapid erosion. Most of the artifacts were found after they’d fallen out of the bluff, which means their place in the geologic timeline is obscured. Nine artifacts were found in place, and only three were able to be dated using charcoal flecks found next to them.

            Hat's off to him for publishing it. There are currently serious problems with the peer reviewed publishing process, starting with the fact that it was born in an era when the scientific world was smaller and people reviewing your work may have known you or someone vouching for you and this is generally no longer true.

            But we do rely heavily on where in a sediment layer a thing was found to try to date it, so with that piece missing for most items, arguing about the defects of the power review process is kind of moot. He should probably work at addressing this issue and maybe that's the piece he doesn't really want to wrestle to the ground to begin with in the peer review process.

            • ethbr1 1 year ago
              I think there's also an argument to be made that in fields where agreement with authority might hold more sway, there needs to be a public publishing outlet for "inconvenient" results.

              In chemistry, either the proposed path works or it doesn't.

              In squishier sciences (econ? archaeology? history? long-term fields like dietary and environmental sciences?), there's less ability for things that fly in the face of conventional wisdom to be provably correct solely on their content.

              Consequently, there's more ability to suppress them. Or at least apathetically ignore and not circulate them.

              And, to the point here, there's a lot more rocks lobbed at you when you're challenging the status quo that careers have been built on, versus following or supporting it.

              Nobody wants to be wrong about something they've staked decades on.

            • aksss 1 year ago
              > hunting big animals like mammoths and giant sloths, driving them into extinction as they went.

              Interesting read, and above quote shouldn’t distract from it, but I thought that theory was abandoned, or at least certainly not considered so likely that it would be presumed by default anymore.

              • sethammons 1 year ago
                I've always heard that megafauna disappearances coincide with human appearance; what other theories are beating that out?
                • nkrisc 1 year ago
                  As a counter point, African megafauna did not go extinct during the same time period, despite the constant presence of humans. African climate was also more stable during the time. On the other hand African megafauna would have co-evolved with humans, so they may have been adapted. But probably there was no single cause.
                  • kjkjadksj 1 year ago
                    There’s enough food in africa where even today going out to hunt an elephant demands a brush gun and a white superiority complex, and is not how most hunt the bush.
                  • flohofwoe 1 year ago
                    It might have been driven by the same environmental changes that allowed humans to settle in a specific region in the first place. But in the end I guess it's several things coming together, like with most catastrophic events.
                    • m0llusk 1 year ago
                      Climate change. The humans were there in part because of environmental change in the first place. Large deposits of dead animals all killed at the same time with no evidence of hunting or butchery makes mass die offs likely. Humans may have participated, but were likely only one among other factors.
                    • defrost 1 year ago
                      "Humans hunting megafaune to extinction" is a subset of "megafauna disappearances coincide with human appearance" (See: Venn Diagram).

                      The second does not imply the first, correlation is not causation.

                      > what other theories are beating that out?

                      See: almost any scholarly discussion on megafauna disappearences in (say) Australasia or elsewhee of the past few decades.

                      • sethammons 1 year ago
                        https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/what-happened-...

                        TL;DR: no theories are beating it out human overkill. Megafauna need to show a mass extinction sans humans and that evidence is lacking. These animals survived a couple dozen ice ages but the final one ends their existence when humans arrived. We would want more hunting and butchering evidence and Africa kept much of its megafauna. So there are unanswered questions but overkill is still largely yhe leading theory

                  • bloopernova 1 year ago
                    What was the sea level at 20K years ago?

                    I was wondering whether more exposed land would have made much difference to migration routes?

                    The DNA record doesn't show any migrations across the north or south Atlantic Ocean, correct? Is there any evidence of humans using routes other than the Bering Strait?

                  • khaki54 1 year ago
                    Is the controversy that the "Clovis" (who are the genetic ancestors of Native American or indigenous) were not actually the first people in North America?

                    Did the Clovis conquer or wipe out the pre-Clovis people?

                    • AlotOfReading 1 year ago
                      We know that the people behind the Clovis material culture weren't the first people in the Americas. It took decades of work by academics like Tom Dillehay, but that's been the status quo since the 90s.

                      We don't know what happened to the preclovis groups. It's likely they were absorbed/became ancestral to later groups like those behind Clovis culture rather than erased, but the evidence is too scarce to say anything definitive.

                      • jcranmer 1 year ago
                        > Is the controversy that the "Clovis" (who are the genetic ancestors of Native American or indigenous) were not actually the first people in North America?

                        My understanding is that Clovis-first has been considered rejected by the anthropology community since the 90s. Yet it's somehow treated as the dominant viewpoint being challenged in every single popular anthropology article even now in 2024.

                        Also, Clovis isn't necessarily the genetic ancestor of modern Native Americans. Evidence of Clovis culture is predominantly based on tool type, and material that can infer genetic relationships is almost entirely lacking.

                        • AlotOfReading 1 year ago
                          The sequencing of Anzick-1 provides pretty clear (if imperfect) evidence that some Clovis populations were ancestral to a lot of modern indigenous Americans, since it's basal to most South American groups.
                      • 1 year ago
                      • ChrisMarshallNY 1 year ago
                        Heh. I like “Clovis police.”

                        That’s a problem in any community; gatekeepers.

                        But, at the same time, as Sagan mentioned, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. A lot of completely batshit stuff pops up, all the time.

                        • angst_ridden 1 year ago
                          Sure, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. But this claim is not so extraordinary. It's just against what was (at one time) the common wisdom.

                          Extraordinary claims would be that humans were in this location far earlier than previous evidence suggested and they had mastered flight or were doing calculus or something.

                          • ChrisMarshallNY 1 year ago
                            I know that. There has been a pretty steady drumbeat of evidence of pre-Clovis stuff for many years.

                            I apologize for appearing to dis the claim. That was not my intent. I was simply stating the issues we face in these types of things, with gatekeepers and crazies.

                            I actually support this guy. I think he's probably correct.

                          • virissimo 1 year ago
                            A series of ordinary evidences can collectively make an extraordinary claim more probable than its negation.
                          • WalterBright 1 year ago
                            Oh my God. I'm back. I'm home. All the time, it was... We finally really did it. You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!

                            https://www.pinterest.com/pin/animated-gifs--365917538457473...

                            • mseepgood 1 year ago
                              I read "ancient cheapskate site" and was imagining a price comparison website from the early 2000s.
                              • datahack 1 year ago
                                “Ancient Chesapeake site forces paleontologists to admit they were wrong after denying clear evidence of much older occupation across the Americas for decades.”

                                Fixed the headline boss!

                                • AlotOfReading 1 year ago
                                  No paleontologists involved here. The article also isn't about forcing people to admit they're wrong, because preclovis is already widely accepted. It's about the tension in meeting the extremely high standard of evidence for that claim against the reality of the site's fragility and destruction.
                                • maykef 1 year ago
                                  Again????

                                  American archaeologists and their desire for fame... Dig up a hole, find the stone tools that evidence human occupation, draw the stratigraphy, do radiocarbon dating, publish in a reputed journal (not your MySpace), rinse and repeat...

                                  • namaria 1 year ago
                                    > (...) archaeologists (...) Dig up a hole, find the stone tools that evidence human occupation, draw the stratigraphy, do radiocarbon dating, publish in a reputed journal

                                    I mean what else did you expect archaeologists to do?

                                    • Tao3300 1 year ago
                                      Running from boulders. Punching Nazis.
                                    • maykef 1 year ago
                                      You would be surprised. For one, they can't be bothered to dig anymore. Many of them are mesmerised by aDNA, cropolites (or traces of them in lakes), and whether paleoindians were feminists or gay...
                                      • AlotOfReading 1 year ago
                                        Archaeologists don't dig holes for fun. Excavations are just one set of tools in a larger investigative toolkit. If you can do the research without the hassle and expense of a trench, why shouldn't you?
                                        • namaria 1 year ago
                                          Knowing many professional archaeologists, I have no idea what you're talking about.