Is a 'slow' swimming pool impeding world records?
174 points by phkx 11 months ago | 329 comments- samldev 11 months agoI was a college swimmer, qualified for Olympic Trials in 2012 and 2016. There are absolutely slow and fast pools. It basically comes down to two things:
1. The depth - which is only 7ft in Paris, unusually shallow for a competition pool.
2. The sides. Does the water spill over the sides into the gutters, or smash into a wall and bounce back, creating more chop.
A trained eye can see all the swimmers in Paris struggling in their last 10-20 meters (heck, an untrained eye can spot some of these). Bummer that it makes the meet feel slow but at least it generally affects all the swimmers equally
- madaxe_again 11 months agoI actually did a fairly lengthy research project on pretty much exactly this as a physics undergraduate - I wasn’t looking at swimming specifically, but rather boundary separation and Reynolds number in an open channel of varying depth.
The setup was simple - a constant head vessel to provide a constant but adjustable flow of water in from one end, and a little plastic boat sat in the middle of the channel, attached to a force gauge at one end of the channel. The outflow of the channel had a gate with an adjustable height in order to vary the depth. Also, a couple of dye injectors at different heights in the channel in order to see turbulent vs laminar flow.
The key finding was that at shallower depths, turbulent flow began much more rapidly and resulted in erratic but overall higher resistive forces on the boat. Deep water remained laminar for much longer, and could flow much faster before turning turbulent near the surface. This was the expected result, but it was nice to experimentally prove it.
So in short, the pool depth almost certainly impacts the point at which turbulence kicks in, and therefore athletic performance. It’s probably the dive/entry that is being most impeded, as that’s when the swimmer will largely be experiencing laminar flow.
- bonestamp2 11 months agoIs there a formula to calculate the ideal depth at which going any deeper results in diminishing returns? In other words, how deep should future competitive swimming pools be built to provide the most world record opportunities (and perhaps more excitement for spectators due to increased world records)?
- bjoli 11 months agoDoes it manifest directly? The water has had some time to settle when they start.
- madaxe_again 11 months agoYes. An object moving through water is more or less equivalent to water moving around an object, and the moment you cross a boundary condition, be it depth, velocity, viscosity, the phase transition is instantaneous to all intents and purposes.
I’d have entire days of experiments screwed up just by the water being slightly too warm or cold, or there being dust, or not enough dust, or sunshine, or… fluid dynamics are finicky.
- madaxe_again 11 months ago
- askvictor 11 months agoAt some (shallow) point, does a 'ground effect' kick in? Or any sort of constructive interference?
- madaxe_again 11 months agoYes, in a very shallow flow you retain laminar flow - but you wouldn’t be able to swim in it, as we’re talking 15mm or so.
- madaxe_again 11 months ago
- bonestamp2 11 months ago
- conductr 11 months agoMy untrained eye has noticed. But I also think it's not really a big deal. There are so few events where the conditions are exactly the same every 4 years. Just kinda the luck of the draw if you happen to be competing in the most ideal conditions for WR setting in any event
- kergonath 11 months agoAlso, the important bit is fairness for all competitors. As the OP said, the same conditions affect everybody. I have little sympathy for the (few) swimmers complaining. They are not owed a world record and if they’re that good, they’re going to get one anyway.
- teractiveodular 11 months agoWouldn't the sides affect swimmers on the edge lanes next to them more? And is this one reason why the strongest swimmers are usually placed in the center lanes?
- teractiveodular 11 months ago
- trhway 11 months ago> But I also think it's not really a big deal.
the difference of the resulting turbulence from the wave bounced back from the bottom surface at 2m here and from the more traditional 3m is a big deal. The water is pushed by the swimmer's hands with the speed of something on the scale of 2 meters per second, so, as the swimmer moves forward, that turbulent movement of the water reflected by the pool bottom may as well come behind the legs in the 3m depth case while in the 2m depth case it would catch the legs decreasing the efficiency of their movement.
- myworkinisgood 11 months agoIt's not a big deal in terms of competition as long as all players are affected equally. People are just being whiny.
- myworkinisgood 11 months ago
- 11 months ago
- LargeWu 11 months agoAdditionally, anybody good enough to be prevented from setting a world record because of this pool will undoubtedly have multiple chances in other competitions with faster pools.
- nl 11 months agoThis isn't really the case. You need a fast pool and good competition.
The Titmus vs Sanders vs Ledecky 400m could have been a world record race in another pool, but there's a pretty good chance we'll never see the three of them race each other again.
- nl 11 months ago
- thaumasiotes 11 months ago> There are so few events where the conditions are exactly the same every 4 years.
The Olympics used to be held at Olympia. It's not difficult to make the conditions the same every four years.
- lordnacho 11 months agoOn that note, I should mention the idea of having a permanent Olympic city. Perhaps a new one.
That way, there's no circus that goes around at great expense each time, and the Olympic city becomes a centre for sports science during the interim.
Perhaps have separate summer and winter cities.
Only drawback is the ioc doesn't get to choose a city every four years.
- lordnacho 11 months ago
- kergonath 11 months ago
- tweetle_beetle 11 months agoI'm no expert, buy there also seems to be loads more stuff lying on the bottom of the shallow floor than I remember from previous Olympics. Not even sure exactly what it is - large white panels and other equipment that the swimmers don't look that far off touching when underwater (not the robot cameras which are relatively unobtrusive).
- ranie93 11 months agodigital lap counters to help the swimmers keep track
- creaghpatr 11 months agoThats pretty nice, when I swam the 500 I would have to lift my head to see the lap counter dropping the sign in the pool which messes with your head position
- creaghpatr 11 months ago
- jonhohle 11 months agoWouldn’t the underwater camera on a track cause currents?
- bhandziuk 11 months agoI could be fully enclosed for the full length and just have a glass top
- bhandziuk 11 months ago
- ranie93 11 months ago
- mysterydip 11 months agoWould the swimmers in the center lanes have any advantage by being furthest away from the wall-induced chop?
- etempleton 11 months agoYes, those on the outside will have choppier waters as the water bounces off the sides of the pools. The modern competition pools do a pretty good job of reducing this effect, but it is always there.
- rurban 11 months agoPlus, you'd have a big advantage later if you start fast and gain a few meters from your two neighbors. Their waves would slow you down. Gliding is much faster than fighting through rough waters.
- renewiltord 11 months agoCould probably increase fairness by doubling the width and throwing away the last few lanes (leaving them empty). But would that incentivize the edges? I don't know.
- rurban 11 months ago
- hgomersall 11 months agoSupposedly, that's why the fastest qualifiers get the middle lanes.
- dist-epoch 11 months ago[flagged]
- dist-epoch 11 months ago
- jschulenklopper 11 months agoAnd having a better view on the competition in the neighboring lanes (just like in track running). There's even some applied psychology here, that competing swimmers 'push' each other to higher speeds because they can see each other more clearly (and 'feel' the push from someone just lagging).
Putting the faster qualifiers in the middle lanes is also a better view for the spectators on both sides of the pool.
- iknowSFR 11 months agoInteresting to see the 400m and 200m track and field athletes starting to favor outside lanes.
- iknowSFR 11 months ago
- johnp314 11 months agoIt would be interesting to see a comparison of lane effect, say for instance, re-running a race after let's say a weeks rest with the top finishers now nearest the side walls and the lowest finishers in the center lanes. Oh and for incentive, let's say the average of their two times determines the winners.
- sandworm101 11 months agoThe human factor would make this very difficult. A more scientific test might be to use RC boats with tightly regulated power outputs, with a wave machine to ensure consistency.
- sandworm101 11 months ago
- etempleton 11 months ago
- ldng 11 months agoSupposedly, all the Paris 2024 new accommodation were designed with re-usability for the general public after the Olympics. Is it possible that had an impact the swimming pool on design choices ? Put differently, are performance design at odd with more general/accessible design in the case of a swimming pool ?
- tw04 11 months agoGiven the pool was put on top of a rugby pitch, which resulted in the shallower depth because they didn't want to destroy the pitch (a full depth pool would have weighed too much) - unlikely. The pool isn't a permanent structure, it's not going to remain there after the olympics are done.
I would be very surprised if they re-use it at all - an "above ground" pool of that size seems like it would be more trouble than it's worth to maintain over the long run.
A timelapse of the pool being put together: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTuFidqy0yI
- tbihl 11 months agoI can't speak to the French ecosystem, but in the US these pools often (usually?) get resold to swim clubs who find some land and build buildings around them.
- tbihl 11 months ago
- physicsguy 11 months agoGiven the abandonment of olympic venues all the way round the world, I don't think this is a bad thing.
There's a lot in the book Soccernomics about how the economic value promised by politicians lobbying for hosting things like this rarely pan out.
- wildzzz 11 months agoThere's definitely economic value but it really only goes to the companies building facilities, the suppliers, and the hospitality industry immediately surrounding the events. In an already well-developed city, they aren't going to be building many new permanent structures. Many will be temporary that will eventually be torn down or just converted back to what they were originally. The money is spent, distributed to the companies that directly participated in the build up and run of the Olympics but there's little gain made after.
A more interesting way of doing the Olympics would be to only allow for developing countries to participate in the selection process. Each country would be required to meet a certain level of funding to guarantee they can support the entire Olympics. Foreign investment would be encouraged. There would be a requirement for some aspects to be permanent construction, you couldn't just build a tent city for the athlete village. Then a name is picked randomly. The host country then receives major foreign investment, not just in sporting arenas, but in many areas of its economy. The Olympic committee could also collect dues from participating countries based on GDP that would go to the host country for economic development. It would basically create a lottery system for the economy of developing countries. The build up to the Olympics would create the infrastructure needed for future investment. This would likely require host cities to be selected much further out in advance. An oversight committee would observe the development and if milestones are not met, a host city from a developed country that does have the infrastructure necessary would instead be chosen.
- wildzzz 11 months ago
- femtozer 11 months agoIn this case, the pool is temporary. La Défense Arena is usually used for rugby (Racing 92) and concerts.
- tw04 11 months ago
- Scoundreller 11 months agoDumb question I never thought about: do the circulation/filtration pumps get turned off during races? And for what minimum time before hand to let things settle?
If so, I guess this would be a serious competition only thing because you wouldn’t want them off for hours.
- dredmorbius 11 months agoFINA competition pool standards have recirculation minimum standards, and pumps run continuously. Further, "water distribution has to be such that no appreciable current or turbulence is created. 'Appreciable current' is defined as water movement that can move a floating basketball (filled with 6 litres of water to obtain the right buoyancy) in one direction for more than 1,25m in 60 seconds."
<https://resources.fina.org/fina/document/2022/02/08/77c3058d...> (PDF)
Most competitive swimming pools have a large number of inlets with diffusers on them, laid out every 2m or so across the pool floor.
Those are circular disks about 10cm in diameter, looking vaguely like this:
The carets indicate inlet water flow beneath the diffusers. The effect is that water entering the pool largely moves perpendicular to the pool floor, and slowly diffuses upwards. Water return is through the (large, wide, deep) gutters.__________ \________/ | | ^^^^^^
Because the gutters are continuously removing water from the pool, circulation needs to be on to maintain a consistent fill level.
- sandworm101 11 months agoThey do, but circulation cannot be totally stopped. This is a greater problem in outdoor pools but any pool will have some sort of temperature gradient that will inevitably result in circulation. Any water movement means slower times, at least in those events longer than 50m (1 length).
- OJFord 11 months agoSurely that has far less effect than that of all the other swimmers? Naïvely I would think we should be running time trials of a single swimmer at a time before caring about any of this?
- OJFord 11 months ago
- dredmorbius 11 months ago
- croes 11 months ago>A lot of this is perception vs. reality,” he said. “If you were to talk to many very accomplished coaches, they would say the pool has to be a minimum 3 meters deep. Most of our research shows that anything over 2 meters is frivolous. … Obviously, some depth is very important. But after a certain point, it's diminishing return.
Maybe it's just the swimmers and not the pool as such
- lou1306 11 months agoBut a lot of the swimmers themselves are not able to go anywhere near their personal bests: this is a sharp reversal from past Olympics, where many athletes reached new personal records.
Plus, they are the worldwide foremost experts on competitive swimming. Definitely I would be more interested in their evaluation of a swimming pool rather than trust "research results" from the company that built the pool in question.
- viraptor 11 months ago> they are the worldwide foremost experts on competitive swimming
On swimming, sure. But not fluid dynamics. It's a bit like music listeners shouldn't be treated as experts on music quality, or you'll get the audiophile nuts who need gold connectors. Some combination of personal experience for comfort and objective measurements for performance would be much better.
- aleph_minus_one 11 months ago> Plus, they are the worldwide foremost experts on competitive swimming. Definitely I would be more interested in their evaluation of a swimming pool rather than trust "research results" from the company that built the pool in question.
But they are very prone to psychological effects.
- croes 11 months agoMaybe they all change their behavior because they know the pool is less deep as they are used to.
Some kind of placebo effect or fear of coming to close to the ground.
Many athletes are superstitious.
- 11 months ago
- echoangle 11 months agoBeing good at swimming doesn’t mean you can evaluate the pool performance better than everyone else. I trust someone running a CFD analysis of a pool more than a competitive Olympic swimmer when it comes to the effect of pool depth. It’s very hard to make accurate statistical assessments from intuition.
Edit: maybe I’m not making myself clear:
I don’t doubt they are slower in the current pool than they were before. But I doubt they can accurately tell you that it’s because of the pool depth. There are other factors that could also influence the performance, and I’m not sure the swimmers can accurately determine which factor is the primary difference.
- viraptor 11 months ago
- derbOac 11 months agoAt the end of the article it notes thqt quote is coming from the company who built the pool.
On some swimming forums competitors were complaining about the bidding process for the pool construction and giving a different opinion, noting that the depth is less than what was recommended by international standards bodies. There's also something about video equipment at the bottom of the pool?
I'm not sure what to think, as there are things to consider both ways, but there's a bit more out there than swimmers versus pool officials.
- ianburrell 11 months agoThe Olympic swimming is held in temporary pools in an indoor arena. Temporary pools explain the shallow depth and high walls. It isn't construction problem but decision to not use permanent pool.
Temporary pools seem to be thing recently. The US trials were held in one.
- ianburrell 11 months ago
- qzw 11 months agoNotice the “most of…” and “diminishing returns”. The vagueness is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that statement. Since world records are often broken by mere tenths or hundredths of a second, I would think that an Olympic games would err on the side of extra spending for exactly those diminishing returns. The excitement and extra viewership from having many new WRs would more than offset the added cost anyway.
- Xcelerate 11 months agoI doubt that. What is P(set of slower times across swimmers | pool is not slower)? Seems like it wouldn’t be too hard to calculate if we make a few reasonable assumptions about observational data.
And if you don’t like inferring causation, one could just directly perform an experiment to test this pool vs another pool using swimmers who didn’t quite make the Olympics.
- etempleton 11 months agoThere are more things that influence if a pool is fast or slow than just the depth.
How the pool gutters neutralizes or doesn’t neutralize waves; water temperature; the design of the lane lines; design of the starting block; the electronic touch sensors(how hard are they - do you get a good solid feel for push off?); etc
Depth is probably only part of the reason the pool is slow. It would be very unlikely everyone happens to be slow at the Olympics this year.
- rscho 11 months agoPerception is everything. If the pool 'feels fast', you'll feel like you're on your way to your best, which is a huge boost to your motivation. The converse is also true.
- roughly 11 months agoI mean, "diminishing effects" - these folks are the absolute apex of swimming struggling for the absolute maximum speed in the water that any person has ever achieved (under the watchful eye of someone with a stopwatch, at least). Small effects don't matter unless you're going for a world record, and then they might.
- lou1306 11 months ago
- dredmorbius 11 months agoThe one aspect which isn't equal at least amongst Olympic and other competitions is that a slower (or faster) pool will generate fewer (or more) records overall. One measure of the current games' bias would be the number of new Olympic and world records set as compared with other events --- prior or subsequent Olympics, and other world-level competitions within the current year, say. I expect the quants at sites such as 538 would be looking at this.
- alistairSH 11 months agoAre records generally evenly distributed over time? Or do we see massive spikes due to single generational talents?
- dredmorbius 11 months agoThe more general tendency that I've seen and which has been noted in articles/studies I'm familiar with is generally technique and technology.
Two examples of technique I'm aware of are the Fosbury Flop (1968) in the high jump, in which the jumper goes backwards over the bar (previously jumpers had gone forwards and feet-first, by 1968 with a sissors step), and heads-down technique in Australian Crawl "freestyle" swimming. Both dramatically improved results.
The Fosbury Flop was enabled by the technological introduction of foam mats on the landing side of the high-jump. Without mats, landing on your back after clearing a 2m+ bar position was somewhat undesirable.
Heads-down stroke in freestyle was in conjunction with freshwater (rather than salt) in swimming pools. Swimming heads-down without goggles in a salt-water pool burns the eyes quite strongly. With freshwater, and acrylic plastic goggles (acrylic being invented in the Great Plastics Boom of the 1930s). I'm not entirely sure when plastic swim goggles became widespread, though it may not have been until the 1970s, and the Montreal Olympics (1976) were the first to permit goggles.
Track generally has also seen tremendous improvements in the track composition (loose cinders to rubberised surface). Swimming pools have hugely reduced wave action through wave-absorbing lane lines, deep gutters, inlet diffusers, and laser-guided construction ensuring accurate and consistent distance.
That's on top of vast improvements in training, other equipment, doping (which has a very long history), professionalisation of sport (including the Olympics), and other factors.
Talent is a component, but the overall phenomenon is highly multidimensional.
- lostlogin 11 months ago> Or do we see massive spikes due to single generational talents?
Various types of doping could cause this too. More positively, tech, diet and science changes could too in some sports too.
- dredmorbius 11 months ago
- alistairSH 11 months ago
- rightbyte 11 months ago> Bummer that it makes the meet feel slow but at least it generally affects all the swimmers equally
Shouldn't the middle swimmer be worse off with "fast" pools? There would be less waves on the side lanes, compared to a "slow" pool where there are reflections.
- pdpi 11 months ago> at least it generally affects all the swimmers equally
> 2. The sides. Does the water spill over the sides into the gutters, or smash into a wall and bounce back, creating more chop.
My only experience with competitive swimming is playing some water polo some 25 years ago, but wouldn't that effect disproportionately affect the swimmers on the outermost lanes?
- davidmurdoch 11 months agoTo a lesser effect, there's also the surface tension of the water, which can be adjusted with salt and borates.
- HPsquared 11 months agoDensity and viscosity must also play a role, or are those managed via temperature control?
- davidmurdoch 11 months agoSeems very plausible. I haven't noticed a speed difference in my own pool with temperature changes, but that might just be because the temperature itself can be so distracting. But I do feel like a salty pool makes me faster (maybe from buoyancy), and borates makes the water feel smoother and less "sticky" (something about surface tension changes with borates, it even makes the surface look different).
- davidmurdoch 11 months ago
- HPsquared 11 months ago
- ClassyJacket 11 months agoThis is yet another reason on the huge list of reasons to keep the Olympics in Athens and just use the same facilities each time.
- adolph 11 months agoWhy aren't swimming lanes stadium shaped like running tracks or speed skating? Floor mounted LED indicators could advise competitors of the relative distance ahead and behind of nearest adversaries.
- sschueller 11 months agoShouldn't that be part of the standard "Olympic Pool" definition? Depth, water height on side and overflow etc. seem to be as important as the nittting of a football goal net.
- manojlds 11 months agoWhy doesn't it affect more the people closer to the sides?
- jmalicki 11 months agoFor point 2, wouldn't the reflections off the sidewalls create more issue with chop on the outer lanes than the middle?
- palijer 11 months agoThe outer lanes are where the slower swimmers are placed already anyways, so if they were having more chop, it wouldn't likely impact a medal contender and cause a big upset... Not saying that outer lanes haven't come out on top in the last, but less likely.
- palijer 11 months ago
- myworkinisgood 11 months agoAll swimmers are affected equally so I don't see a problem.
- Yawrehto 11 months agoOff-topic but congratulations for qualifying for trials!
- 11 months ago
- croes 11 months agoSo now that two swimming worlds records have fallen, we can't blame the pools anymore, can we?
- will1am 11 months ago[dead]
- umanwizard 11 months agoWhy does it matter how deep the pool is?
Edit: the article addresses this, so if anyone else is curious like I was, I suggest clicking.
- creshal 11 months agoBecause it means waves bounce off the bottom faster (less distance travelled) and much more importantly, with far more energy (square cube law works against you). So the waters far more choppy far faster, since you have 50% less water volume to absorb all the energy.
- defrost 11 months agoIf it's too shallow the swimmers arms hit the bottom ...
Slightly deeper and there's drag from the floor as their arms barely miss it. That effect persists until it doesn't .. now it's deep enough.
It needs to be deep enough that vortex's created by swimmers have disapated by the time they reach bottom and reflect back to the surface so as to not interfere with following swimmers or swimmers returning.
- sshine 11 months ago> If it's too shallow the swimmers arms hit the bottom
Is it’s deep enough, the gravitational mass of the water will form a black hole and squash the swimmer to death.
- sshine 11 months ago
- HPsquared 11 months agoEdge effects affecting the flow field around the swimmer. I suppose the floor might trap turbulence near the surface rather than dissipating into the depths.
- creshal 11 months ago
- madaxe_again 11 months ago
- candlemas 11 months agoThe pool in Beijing was said to be fast (25 world records broken). But they were also using a now banned swimsuit. https://www.npr.org/2008/08/10/93478073/chinas-olympic-swimm...
- 5555624 11 months agoBut you don't need to compare these results to 2008. It's not the suit. There wasn't a banned swimsuit used by everyone in Tokyo three years ago. (The 2020 Olympics were postponed a year.) As the first sentence of the article says, the eight men in the men’s 100-meter breaststroke final would have finished no better than eighth in Tokyo. Mactinenghi won in 59.03 seconds, more than two seconds slower than the current world record (and slower than the then-world record set at the 2008 Olympics).
- djtango 11 months agoThe water cube was such an epic pool - extremely deep and the level perfectly flat rather than elliptical. I still have dreams of swimming in it
- sswezey 11 months agoWhat do you mean the level was perfectly flat vs elliptical? The surface of the pool? I'm confused
- djtango 11 months agoI had the memory that race pools were deeper in the middle but I think that may have changed especially as I haven't competed since 2008
Here is a source from 2012 which shows pool depths weren't always uniform but it seems more modern pools are
https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/olympic-pools-whe...
- djtango 11 months ago
- sswezey 11 months ago
- 5555624 11 months ago
- expression1sh 11 months agoSlow pools absolutely exist, as wave drag is the major impediment to speed and contributes about 55% of total drag. A shallower pool has more reflected wave energy in all directions. 2m is very shallow for a competition pool.
This paper does a decent job of modelling how swimmers move through water: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/epdf/10.1098/rsif.201...
- notatoad 11 months agofrom the washington post version of this article, the winners are slower but everybody else is faster...
>But the “slow pool” theory does not hold up as well when one looks beyond the winning times. In fact, it appears a bit, ahem, shallow.
>When you consider the times it has taken to earn a spot in the finals in Paris — which is to say, the eighth-place times from either preliminary heats (in events 400 meters or longer) or semifinals — those times have been faster than in Fukuoka in 10 of the 12 events and faster than in Tokyo in five of 12. In the women’s 400 free, for example, it took a time of 4 minutes 3.83 seconds to make it into the final, faster than in Fukuoka (4:04.98) or Tokyo (4:04.07).
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/2024/07/30/pa...
- lacoolj 11 months agoSo it's more shallow, which is a problem. Like if you trained for track on pavement vs rubber vs sand, you're going to have different results, even if "everyone has the same environment" not everyone's body will have the same relative response. I don't like that assumption that just because it's the same for everyone means the difference will affect everyone the same.
Are France competition pools across the country just always that shallow? What are dimensions of the pools from the past 10-15 Olympics? Should this have been an established standard? (gonna say yes to that one)
- p0ckets 11 months ago"minimum standard of 2 meters that was still in place when Paris 2024 plans were approved; but below the new World Aquatics minimum of 2.5 meters."
Although the recommendation has been 3 meters for a while.
- morepork 11 months agoIt's nowhere near the difference of a rubber all weather track vs pavement or sand, it's a difference of maybe 1-2%. In any sport different venues can have favourable vs unfavourable conditions that would exceed this
- brk 11 months agoConsidering that the Olympics are supposed to be a test of high caliber athletics, you could argue that the lack of a standard, and the resulting variation, means that the athletes who are most adaptable have an edge. Which doesn't seem bad to me.
- hot_gril 11 months agoPlenty of pro sports have variation in conditions. World Cup soccer is played outdoors with rain, heat, whatever. Rain matters even more in Le Mans, where time records are being set. It doesn't really matter as long as it's cool to watch.
- BoringTimesGang 11 months agoWe've just finished Copa America, where players and managers complained about the pitch and its dimensions.
- spike021 11 months agoIn baseball too, you have things like playing in LA or NY vs playing in Denver with thin atmosphere that completely affects movement of pitches as well as how well they fly through the air.
- BoringTimesGang 11 months ago
- p0ckets 11 months ago
- mlsu 11 months agoI wonder if there is some kind of mesh that you could put on the bottom of the pool to absorb the interior waves. Sort of like soundproofing in a recording studio.
- expression1sh 11 months agoA lining of triangular foam blocks would make for an interesting pool. It might work, but practicality (installation, cleaning etc.) would likely rule it out
- expression1sh 11 months ago
- meling 11 months agoThere was a pretty strong world record tonight in the men’s 100 m freestyle of 46.40. Actually more than a second faster than the second place and beating the previous wr by 0.4 seconds.
- Strongbad536 11 months agohttps://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/20/world/asia/chinese-swimme...
Worth noting that the WR was from a Chinese swimmer and there's a current controversy around whether or not a large contingent of swimmers from the Chinese team violated anti-doping rules after a banned substance was found in their test results several months prior.
Reports are self-policed because it would spread the IoC or other international bodies too thin (ahem... convenient), and the Chinese reporting body "Chinada" dismissed it after saying "trace amounts were found in the kitchen where the athletes were staying at a meet".
I attempted to track down the report to see if the 100m world record breaker was amongst those who tested positive, but wasn't able to find it posted online anywhere. So he may have NOT been incriminated there, or may have been, can't say either way.
I want to celebrate the increased emphasis on swimming internationally as a former college swimmer, but it's also hard to ignore some of the clouds of controversy that have formed surrounding Chinese athletes. I understand the Olympics are a focus point for the country, and again as a former D1 swimmer I can empathize with wanting to do well, but at the same time I hope they're not crossing any lines in effort to win, as that defeats the spirit of competition.
Also worth noting that Phelps and Alison Schmitt testified before Congress and spoke about the intrusive frequency and nature of how often they were drug tested.
The NYT/The Daily did some great reporting and follow-up podcast on the situation.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/4Rcc852dmPSPytDdRCKInU?si=2...
- trashface 11 months agoI haven't been watching but I presume its a 50m pool. So the 100M would just have one turn, and so the swimmers would only be going through the "wall of chop" they generate once. In other words I'd expect shorter distance events to be less affected by pool depth and whatever turbulence effect that has. Also free might be less affected vs something like breaststroke due to the angle of the body in the water. (Without good technique breaststroke is really draggy, even amateurs can notice)
- Strongbad536 11 months ago
- haunter 11 months ago>Could we have seen a sub-4 minute 400 IM by Marchand
Marchand beat the rest by more than 5 seconds in the end but basically "gave up" after 300 meters. Shoulda coulda woulda but he didn't need to push himself at all for the gold (his last split was the 2nd worst against everyone else).
- paganel 11 months agoWe’ve just got a huge WR in the 100 men sprint by Pan Zhanle (just 19 years of age, the future is all his), I have no sympathy for those crying after WRs, maybe they’re not that good to begin with.
More generally, and talking about being good, it’s noticeable how the US, the biggest force in swimming, is going through a change of generations, as their only remaining star is Ledecky, who’s on her fourth Olympics. The Russians are also missing, they always used to have one or two super-stars ready to push the Americans to the limit (think Popov and Pankratov). The Aussies are doing a very fine job, and fair-play to them for that, but they’re also kind of not up to the highest levels in the men’s competition.
- Paddywack 11 months agoYears ago Johannesburg put in an Olympic bid. Because of the high altitude (1753m) they had issues affecting a number of disciplines when it came to records due to the thinner air...
If I recall correctly: - Javeline would go further (less air resistance) - High cardio events would go slower (less oxygen for athletes)
That would have been a "slow pool" factor all things being equal!
- kolja005 11 months agoYou might find it interesting to know that for track cycling the penalty due to lower oxygen uptake is less than the advantage due to less air resistance. In other words track cyclists, at least in some of the longer disciplines, will go faster at higher altitudes despite there being less air to breathe.
- Loughla 11 months agoThat's actually super cool. I ran cross country through high school and one year of college. I was fast. Very, very fast in Ohio.
We traveled to Colorado for an invitational.
I was so slow and so tired. 18 year old me didn't realize that air changes. Idiot.
I also realized that if those guys ever came to the Midwest, they would absolutely dominate.
- michaelrpeskin 11 months agoYeah. I’m an aged mountain biker. Very mediocre. But when I travel to low altitude, I feel like Superman when I ride.
I live at 5000 ft now, but in my 30s I lived and slept at 9000 but did all my rides near 5000. That was an amazing time for my fitness. I could go hard at “low” altitude but recover at high which is what my body adapted for.
- michaelrpeskin 11 months ago
- kolja005 11 months ago
- w_for_wumbo 11 months agoAs we're probably familiar, dealing with an under spec computer for doing your job is frustrating. Even marginal differences in speed can be perceivable and lead to a growing dissatisfaction over time. I imagine these competitors face the same sort of frustration when dealing with a 'slow' swimming pool like this.
- BigParm 11 months agoHow is there not a standard regulation design
- eddieroger 11 months agoOne can ask the same about baseball diamonds and how it's remotely fair to compare home run records when the distance needed for one is different (though with a minimum) 30 times over.
- eddieroger 11 months ago
- benob 11 months agoDo they make anechoic swimming pools that would absorb waves like acoustic anechoic chambers?
- MisterBastahrd 11 months agoWell, if this is the case, then wouldn't a person who gets out to an early start have a tremendous advantage over the rest of the group since she'd be swimming largely without interference for the first length of the race while the trailers would have more turbulance? Also, I've never understood why there aren't more standards for Olympic tracks / pools / gear. For example, everyone should be required to train in and wear identical apparel when in a timed event like swimming so that nobody gets a technological advantage.
- toast0 11 months agoIdentical apparel is a non-starter unless the athletes have identical body shapes, or we're abandoning (US) broadcasting rights to go Olympic Style.
- jacobgkau 11 months agoDevil's advocate, body shape's going to affect them while swimming even if they're not wearing anything, so the interaction between the "regulation apparel" and body shape could be considered just another form of that. (I can see how it might not be in the spirit of the sport, though.)
- jacobgkau 11 months ago
- Ylpertnodi 11 months ago...would they all have to train the same, eat the same food, etc?
- MisterBastahrd 11 months agoLet's not be intentionally obtuse.
- jacobgkau 11 months agoI don't think it's obtuse when you're saying they should be required to wear the same thing while training.
If you want to regulate what they wear for the competition itself, fine. But I don't see how regulating what they wear while training is different than regulating what exercises they do while training, what their diet is while training, etc.
- jacobgkau 11 months ago
- MisterBastahrd 11 months ago
- toast0 11 months ago
- f_allwein 11 months agoWhat I remember from the London Olympics is that records don’t fall from the sky, but venues can be planned/ optimised for them. Maybe this did not happen in Paris so much?
See this bit on the Velodrome in London: https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/making-tracks-building-th...
- morepork 11 months agoIn Paris they didn't want to build a white elephant swimming venue that will never get filled outside of the Olympics. So instead they converted an indoor stadium, the Paris La Défense Arena that is normally used for rugby and concerts.
You can see in the timelapse video here[1] the pool being built above the surface. They built it to a depth of 2.15m, the minimum required is 2m, but the recommended depth is 3m.
I can only assume that making it deeper would have cost more, and perhaps reduced the sightlines from the stands as the pool would have been higher in the arena?
[1] https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/29555045/paris-2024-olympics-...
- well_actulily 11 months agoAnd similarly for Los Angeles, the current proposal is to have swimming events at SoFi, a ~70,000 seat NFL stadium.
- hnburnsy 11 months ago
- notatoad 11 months agothat has a seating capacity of 5000, which is a size that can have future uses.
la defense arena has a capacity of 40000.
- phatfish 11 months agoParis La Défense Arena -- Aquatics (swimming, water polo finals)
Paris Aquatic Centre -- Aquatics (water polo preliminaries, diving, artistic swimming)
- morepork 11 months ago"it is hosting the diving, water polo, and artistic swimming competitions."
- notatoad 11 months ago
- well_actulily 11 months ago
- morepork 11 months ago
- Waterluvian 11 months agoI hadn’t really considered the energy bouncing off and interfering swimmers. I was just imagining the plausibility given the limited science I know about water flow in a stream and cross sectionally how the furthest from edges (drag) will be fastest.
Which got me wondering if there’s any detectable correlation on record setting and what lane you’re in (closer to the side of the pool might be slower?)
- outside1234 11 months agoFeel like we should probably be looking deeper into the lack of doping (be it Chinese or otherwise) as probably a bigger factor here.
- matsemann 11 months agoI'm fairly certain I read a thorough analysis linked on here a few years ago, about how there was a kind of draft/current in the pool used in the championship at the time. Some analysis determining that certain lanes were favorable or not.
But unable to locate it. Fairly certain it was Barcelona.
- jeppebemad 11 months agoAs a counterpoint to the Parisian pool being slow, China beat the world record in 100m free 10 minutes ago.
- elliottkember 11 months agoThat's not a counterpoint, it doesn't imply the pool is fast or even normal. In a faster pool his time could've been even lower.
- willsmith72 11 months agoIt is if the only data is lack of world records, and mixed opinions from experts (per the article)
- 11 months ago
- willsmith72 11 months ago
- rty32 11 months agoNitpick: for individual sports, probably better to refer to participants as "Pan Zhanle from China" than "China".
- samatman 11 months agoNitpick of the nitpick: in international sports, the preposition used is "of", as in "Pan Zhanle of China", as an elision of "of the Chinese team".
Now, I could make up reasons for this, like not every athlete is strictly "from" the place they compete for, but a just-so story isn't needed here, prepositions are what they are, often arbitrary but always specific.
Citation:
https://apnews.com/article/paris-olympics-china-swimming-pan...
- samatman 11 months ago
- elliottkember 11 months ago
- beloch 11 months agoIf this is a "slow" pool, then should we toss world records from "fast" pools? There are a lot of other events where factors affecting performance aren't completely controlled. Perhaps comparing records across different times and places is meaningless.
- BobAliceInATree 11 months agoNo, in the same way that all Marathon records are set in only a few marathons which have very favorable conditions.
- beloch 11 months agoIt's hard to control conditions for a Marathon, but what's to stop some future Olympic host from intentionally creating the fastest pool possible that wouldn't be objected to, just so they could watch "their" Olympics break all the records?
- mb7733 11 months agoThat is exactly what happens almost every time... Just not this time
- bitmasher9 11 months agoDon’t we want Olympic hosts to create optimal conditions for athletes to demonstrate their skills?
- mb7733 11 months ago
- beloch 11 months ago
- BoringTimesGang 11 months ago>Perhaps comparing records across different times and places is meaningless.
This is a line of thought that leads to the consideration that sports as are whole are rationally meaningless. That leads to hobbies being meaningless. That leads to emotions and ethics being meaningless.
You can't apply rationality to explain why people care about things. But people do care about it, so it matters.
- BobAliceInATree 11 months ago
- jjulius 11 months agoThis is entirely just my own opinion...
I completely understand why you might not want a slow pool in a competition like this, but the emphasis on it being "not ideal for record setting" is weird to me. I guess I just don't understand the constant quest to set better and better records. Do we really always need to be hitting new world records? What's the point of that, why does that need to be a thing? If records like that are expected to be broken at every Olympics, what's the point of striving to break them if they're just going to be broken again?
Meh, I'll go back to yelling at clouds, I guess.
- glitcher 11 months agoSetting a new world record is part of making history, and many are not broken at every Olympics. Consider this example - the men's 100m sprint world record was last broken by Usain Bolt 15 years ago! Now if you're not into that particular sport then maybe that doesn't mean much to you, fair enough. But wow, when someone comes along who is able to break that record it will really be something special.
- jjulius 11 months agoYeah, that's kinda what I was getting at. The way this talks about "impeding world records" makes it sound like they're expected to be broken frequently. If that's the case, to me, it kinda cheapens world records - that's to say, if they're broken so often, it doesn't seem as big of a deal. But when someone like Usain sets a record that lasts for a while, it does make sense to me that the breaking of that record is special.
It ain't special if it happens a lot, I guess is my thinking.
- nullandvoid 11 months agoSure, but I think you're missing the point.
The point is that many athletes are only at their peak for one or two Olympics. How rubbish for them that they're not able to get a fair shot at the record like others have had in the past.
- nullandvoid 11 months ago
- jjulius 11 months ago
- jwrallie 11 months agoI think it might be a motivation for competitors when they are already at the top, it is a way they can compare their performance with all past (and future) performances, and most importantly, with their own performance in other competitions.
- XorNot 11 months agoThe Olympic committee mandates that new facilities get built for every Olympics, which is partly why the games are so damn expensive everytime.
With that in mind though, what is the point of a world event like this if, given the time and resources, we're not going to try and optimize for peak performance for the participants given that for many of them it's the career peak?
I'd argue plenty of blame to go around though: for one, why is there not a standard pool design and dimension?
- jjulius 11 months agoI guess, at least to me, there's a bit of a difference between "optimizing for peak performance in order to best your opponent(s)" and "expecting to break world records".
/shrug
- jjulius 11 months ago
- dagw 11 months agoI guess I just don't understand the constant quest to set better and better records.
Money. All else being equal, setting a new world record will lead to you earning more money, compared to 'just' winning gold. Both because there many cases are cash bonuses tied to world records, and from a sponsorship point of view it is easier to 'sell' a world record holder. Most people know that Usain Bolt holds the 100m world record and Olympic record, you have to be pretty into sprinting to know who won gold at the 100m last Olympics.
- glitcher 11 months ago
- renewiltord 11 months agoIt's amusing that the day after this was published a monstrous world record beat occurred in the 100 m freestyle.
- drdebug 11 months agoAccording to airparif.fr air quality is currently degraded in Paris, could air pollution be the culprit ?
- philip1209 11 months agoIt’s also not ideal to try setting a high jump record right after the Olympics in Mexico City. So what.
- gwbas1c 11 months agoHonestly, my first reaction was "oh, they just stopped doping."
Good thing there's credible explanations about the differences in pools and how that effects swimming speed. Otherwise, I'd assume that no one wanted to "'fess up" to prior doping.
- EternalFury 11 months agoWorld records don’t matter in the Olympics. Medals go to those who show up and prevail.
- knodi123 11 months agoWorld records matter on their own, as long as the measurement is trustworthy. The way we know this matters at the Olympics, is that world records are being tracked and discussed at the Olympics.
But you're right, they don't affect medals.
- EternalFury 11 months agoMy point is that it’s not the spirit of the games. Ancient Greeks didn’t even keep a record of any metrics. Back then, there was no assumption that “modern” competitors should exceed the performance of those who competed decades or centuries before.
This type of focus leads to unhealthy expectations and doping in my opinion.
- EternalFury 11 months ago
- Flop7331 11 months agoIndeed. I also don't find fractional seconds very exciting. I call a difference of .02 seconds a tie.
- knodi123 11 months ago
- cl0ckt0wer 11 months agoCould the percentage of deuterium in the water be affecting the speed too?
- djtango 11 months agoWhy would we expect that to vary by any appreciable level?
- djtango 11 months ago
- MichaelBurjack 11 months agoIn addition to physical issues raised (7ft depth, configuration of sides), I wonder if there might be any other reasons that aren't mentioned at all in the article…
Something causing these elite athletes to be a bit off their game? Whatever could it possibly be…
- https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2024/07/31/us...
- https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/team-gb-swimmer-m...
- https://www.theguardian.com/sport/article/2024/jul/30/paris-...
- https://svenska.yle.fi/a/7-10061397
Yup, no idea. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- khuey 11 months agoThat's not a very satisfying explanation because everyone seems to be slow and it's pretty unlikely that everyone has COVID.
- MichaelBurjack 11 months agoCovid is a highly contagious virus that spreads and lingers in the air, and we have athletes in close quarters without any virus control procedures [1] (other than the Olympic organizers providing hand sanitizer [2], which is an odd choice for airborne virus prevention).
Given lack of testing and that many countries (including European countries) are seeing Covid surges right now, I think it's highly likely that most competitors are competing with either current or recent Covid infections affecting their peak performance capacity.
Edit: I wouldn't suggest it's the sole cause of performance issues. But for an entire article on the topic of swim performance to completely ignore multiple reports of viral infection from top performers seems a glaring omission.
-----
1: "The 29-year-old does not have to isolate from other athletes and does not have to test negative before competing again": https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/40672610/olympics-2...
2: "For now, nothing has been put into place by the organizing committee … but hand sanitizer is available in its clinics and restaurants.": https://www.cbsnews.com/news/2024-paris-olympics-covid-cases...
- throwaway2037 11 months agoTo be clear, there is no scientific consensus on the term "surge". It is purely editorial, in my view. Iff you believe KFF.org, there trend lines show a sharp fall in the last six months here: https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/global-...
- throwaway2037 11 months ago
- Flop7331 11 months agoThe Olympic Villages are notorious for being germfests.
- MichaelBurjack 11 months ago
- MichaelBurjack 11 months agoNow up to at least 11 known aquatic competitors [1]. And most teams aren't testing — for example, Australia brought their own PCR machine; nothing has been provided by the Olympic organizers.
[1]: https://swimswam.com/swimmers-pieroni-and-gatt-join-the-covi...
- outside1234 11 months agoLet's also not forget doping. Chinese swimmers noticeably slower this year than last olympics in particular. Wonder why that is?
- khuey 11 months ago
- raspasov 11 months agoHas anything in the drug testing changed that can affect swimmers?
- suyash 11 months agoChinese swimmer just broke the record, this article is nonsense.
- tonymet 11 months agoa good tech talk about the venue & technology and it's impact on olympic scores. tl;dr the surfaces and shoes likely account for 95% of the record breaking
https://www.ted.com/talks/david_epstein_are_athletes_really_...
As with any tech talk, think critically. Athletes train more vigorously, and have much better nutrition. Earlier athletes in the Olympics and Tour de France drank alcohol and smoked during performance.
It's still helpful to pay attention to the venues, like the swimming pools, tracks , wrestling mats etc. My verdict is that venue plays a big part, and records are not comparable from different venues.
- noworld 11 months ago[flagged]
- tokai 11 months ago[flagged]
- joeisaveggie 11 months ago[flagged]
- fnordian_slip 11 months agoYou probably will dismiss it, based on your username, but people like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrik_Baboumian completely demolish your argument.
- WithinReason 11 months agoOlympic athletes are not allowed to take steroids, while strongmen take as much as humanly possible.
- WithinReason 11 months ago
- dkdbejwi383 11 months agoGorillas are vegan and they have a ton of muscle.
- sshine 11 months agoOnly humans are vegan.
Few gorillas were seen distributing pamphlets and letting their local community know of their superior dietary philosophy.
Animals are classified as herbivores, omnivores, or carnivores.
Gorillas are omnivores with a predominantly plant-based diet.
Can gorillas become vegan?
Good question.
- whelp_24 11 months agoGorillas are not vegan, they eat a significant amount insects. They also opportunistically eat small (vertibrate) animals. They also eat a whole lot more than humans.
- HPsquared 11 months agoYeah, but gorillas have a different digestive system to humans.
- sshine 11 months ago
- loloquwowndueo 11 months agoFUD. Vegan food also has protein.
- dp-hackernews 11 months agoAll protein derived from veggies are considered incomplete when compared to animal derived protein, which also require substantially more volume to obtain the same nutritional content.
You only need to look at the amount of waste (feces) between a veggie based diet and an animal based diet - the difference is staggeringly different.
I.e. far less waste is produced, because far less is required when eating animal based foods.
- Etheryte 11 months agoThis argument isn't even anywhere close to making any sense. The amount of waste that's left after food is digested doesn't indicate anything about the nutritional values of the food you've consumed. The reason there's more waste after eating veggies is because veggies generally contain high levels of fiber and the human body cannot digest fiber.
(Aside: this doesn't mean fiber isn't good or useful for you, consuming fiber is a key component in keeping your gut fit and healthy because your gut has to do work to deal with the fiber, similar to lifting weights for your other muscles.)
- aziaziazi 11 months ago> All protein derived from veggies are considered incomplete when compared to animal protein
You’ be interested to have a look at amino acid in quinoa, tempeh and most of the mushrooms
- loloquwowndueo 11 months agoDunno man, I poop a lot more (and stinkier) when I eat more meat as compared to vegetarian dishes.
Considered incomplete by whom? References?
- Etheryte 11 months ago
- arktos_ 11 months ago[dead]
- dp-hackernews 11 months ago
- kallwefg 11 months ago[flagged]
- fnordian_slip 11 months ago
- jlarcombe 11 months agoFinally an explanation for my hopelessness at childhood swimming lessons. It was a slow pool!
- jgalt212 11 months agoIn perhaps the most Slate article ever, they attempt to blame the lack for record breaking Paris on (wait for it), Climate Change.
https://slate.com/technology/2024/07/paris-olympics-2024-bre...
- Loughla 11 months agoI mean, if it's hotter, that will impact performance. Not for swimming necessarily, but track will suffer.
- Loughla 11 months ago
- rurban 11 months agoOf course it's slower. CFD simulations would also prove that.
But maybe they wanted not to be too many world records be broken, to damage control the apparent doping problem.
You can easily see on TV now, who is doped and who's not. All the dopers do have dark purple faces after the swim, usually the middle swimmers from the US, GB, AUS, Ireland, F, China, whilst the non-dopers keep their usual skin color. Italy, Hungary, Germany, ... Some hormone effect probably with these rushes.
- xanderlewis 11 months agoSo you’re claiming the American, British, Australian, Irish, French and Chinese swimmers are all on drugs? And that everyone apart from you is unaware of that fact?
Right.
- rurban 11 months agoAre you claiming that all swimming medal winners are not on drugs? That's highly ridiculous. They are just not caught.
- rurban 11 months ago
- xanderlewis 11 months ago