Nxylon: New super-black material made from wood

183 points by throwaway2562 11 months ago | 73 comments
  • digging 10 months ago
    > Most surprisingly, Nxylon remains black even when coated with an alloy, such as the gold coating applied to the wood to make it electrically conductive enough to be viewed and studied using an electron microscope. This is because Nxylon’s structure inherently prevents light from escaping rather than depending on black pigments.

    I don't follow this at all. If it's coated with an alloy, Nxylon isn't on the surface of the object anymore, the alloy is. So the alloy should be reflecting light. What am I missing?

    • loaph 10 months ago
      I interpreted this along the lines of it not being a pigment, rather it's black because something about it's physical structure at a small scale causes light to not reflect back. Adding a thin coating of gold would not necessarily change that structure so it would continue not reflecting light.

      ^ pure conjecture

      • pb060 10 months ago
        I believe it's something called "structural absorption", similar to what happens on birds of paradise feathers [1]

        [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-017-02088-w

        • majorchord 10 months ago
          I wonder if this pattern is considered similar to fractals? Or would that work even better? I recently learned that we have figured out how to produce fractal light from lasers as well which sounds quite interesting and useful.

          Maybe the reason radio waves travel poorly through trees is due to the leaves having a fractal-like structure as well? And since light is also just electromagnetic radiation too, it makes sense that this phenomenon could also be used to absorb light itself, if I'm understanding correctly. I wonder if this is how stealth paint on aircraft works?

          • jmprspret 10 months ago
            I'm way out of my depth here, but I think this comparison to the birds of paradise feathers makes the most sense in terms of me visualising what Nxylon would look like with a thin metallic coating
          • digging 10 months ago
            > Adding a thin coating of gold would not necessarily change that structure

            My confusion is that I would normally expect a layer of gold not to permit any light to pass through. The underlying structure wouldn't be receiving any light, so there would be no photons to trap. Apparently a layer of gold can be applied thinly enough to transmit appreciable light, though.

          • xelamonster 10 months ago
            This part of the article confused me, because what does a black pigment do if not "inherently prevent light from escaping"? That's kind of just the definition of absorb.
          • vczf 10 months ago
            A layer of very thin gold can be transparent.
        • oniony 11 months ago
          This, different article, https://www.earth.com/news/new-super-black-wonder-wood-calle..., suggests the process is high-energy plasma affecting the cut ends of the basswood fibres.
        • dbacar 11 months ago
          "The researchers have developed prototype watches and jewelry" What kind of a research team is this, fashion? :)
        • kingkongjaffa 11 months ago
          What’s the chemistry at play here to achieve this?

          Does it burn “lighter” compounds away to leave dark ones behind? Does it cause a reaction to turn lighter compounds darker? I couldn’t see details of the mechanism. Which is important since presumably some mechanisms would give a hint that the process can be tried on other materials or types of wood.

          The article mentions it works on other types of wood but doesn’t explain why, or if it works on all woods.

          • HPsquared 11 months ago
            It's probably a combination of the surface being black in colour (charcoal), plus a surface texture that absorbs light.

            It brings to mind the way feathers and insects often have brightly-coloured parts that aren't due to pigment but rather the microstructure preferentially absorbing/reflecting specific wavelengths, giving a colour.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_coloration

            Similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if the microstructure is tuned to work best (lowest reflectance) in the visible light range.

            EDIT: limited wavelength range also applies to other "super-black" materials https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_black#Technology

            • cenamus 11 months ago
              Well they say it doesn't rely on pigments, so I'm inclined to think it uses some sort of nano-structures, like "improved" vantablack. Like a forest where light goes in, but just get's scattered long before it can make its way back out. Ben did a really nice video about that homemade stuff, including (of course) some electron microscope images.

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xr1AiExSAnU

              • flir 11 months ago
                Maybe the cut cell acts like a hemispherical shell coated in carbon. Light enters, bounces around inside a couple of times, gets absorbed?
              • neom 11 months ago
                Two things are at play, the lignin (light absorbing) is emphasized and the cellulose is burnt away (light reflecting), and it seems this combined pretty unique lattice system (they use a similar synthetic system when producing regular ultrablack paint but the natural one appears to be more complex) create the blackness.
                • Scaevolus 10 months ago
                  Check the paper, especially figure 5: https://doi.org/10.1002/adsu.202400184

                  Burning the end-grain wood makes a particularly complex porous structure that minimizes the chance of reflected light escaping ("velvety").

                • ComputerGuru 10 months ago
                  > Nxylon (niks-uh-lon), after Nyx

                  It seems the most straightforward spelling (and easier to pronounce by looking at it if you are taking any kind of cues from the rest of loan words in the language) would have been Nyxlon.

                  • YeGoblynQueenne 10 months ago
                    I read it as "N-xylon", where "ξύλον" is wood in Greek.
                    • 10 months ago
                    • Hnrobert42 11 months ago
                      The ceiling and wall tiles mentioned at the very end of the article sound really cool.
                      • pmcarlton 10 months ago
                        A room where all the walls, floor, and ceiling are made of this would be pretty disorienting, wouldn't it? Even with a light source that let you see all the people in the room, wouldn't it just look like you're all in a pocket dimension?
                        • Hnrobert42 10 months ago
                          Wow. I didn't even think of that option! I was just thinking of accent tiles.
                      • ted_dunning 10 months ago
                        Sounds like a great way to build black body emission sources.

                        Just panel the interior of a box with this stuff and put a hole in one wall.

                        It does depend on the spectral properties a lot. Figure 3 in https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/adsu.202400184 seems to indicate that the behavior in the very near infrared will be pretty good. It stands to reason that this behavior could be optimized by process improvements.

                        • mikewarot 10 months ago
                          This is going to result in an awesome Applied Science video... I hope!

                          Making this at home will be quiet interesting.

                          • barrenko 11 months ago
                            Hopefully the writers of Parks & Recreation will be aware of this research when writing the second reunion show.

                            https://youtu.be/pTme7k5sV-o?si=sbAYH5FAg4n4G4LS

                            • parpfish 11 months ago
                              How much more black could it be? None. None more black.
                            • hoseja 11 months ago
                              How does it compare to the other super-black materials, the Vantablacks and the like?
                              • Cthulhu_ 11 months ago
                                Here [0] is the paper in question, it has a chart that shows the reflection rate of this one at around 0.3 - 2%; the paper itself has the following quote for the competitors:

                                > Far lower reflectance values have been achieved with materials containing aligned carbon nanotubes (CNT), for example a low-density CNT array (0.045%),[11] the coating Vantablack (0.035%)[7] and a CNT-metal foil (0.005%).[12] The current holder of the “record” for a low reflectivity material (<0.0002%) is an ion-track micro-textured polymer with anti-backscatter matrix.[13]

                                So they're arguing that it's on-par with Vantablack but not the newer materials.

                                [0] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/adsu.202400184

                                • shibbidybop 11 months ago
                                  From your numbers Vantablack is 0.035%, whereas the new process bottoms out at 0.3%. So they’re within 10x of Vantablack, but not on the same level.
                                • HPsquared 11 months ago
                                  Probably less carcinogenic.
                                  • Cthulhu_ 11 months ago
                                    I dunno, it looks like they're creating carbon nanostructures; while wood carbon / soot seems fairly benign, I still wouldn't want to breathe it.
                                    • cenamus 11 months ago
                                      And tar/pitch is definitely carcinogenic
                                    • tetris11 11 months ago
                                      that's what a lot people with wood burners used to say...
                                      • throwanem 10 months ago
                                        Yeah, but everybody chain-smoked from age 3 in those days, so it's not easy to tell.
                                    • Alifatisk 11 months ago
                                      If my understanding is correct, Nxylon is lighter than Vantablack (in terms of weight) but reflects slightly more light. This means that it is less effective than Vantablack at absorbing light.
                                    • groby_b 10 months ago
                                      Looking at the watch photographies, how is this "super-black"?
                                      • fernly 10 months ago
                                        A pity they hadn't read Gene Wolf's _Book of the New Sun_ in which the main character wears robes of "the hue fuligin, which is darker than black, admirably erases all folds, bunchings and gatherings so far as the eye is concerned, showing only a featureless dark."[1] From the Latin for soot.[0]

                                        [0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fuliginous

                                        [1] http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=1495

                                        • 10 months ago
                                        • peter_d_sherman 10 months ago
                                          • ljsprague 10 months ago
                                            Does it rub off?
                                            • emsign 11 months ago
                                              [flagged]
                                              • jawns 11 months ago
                                                I think combining Nyx (dark) + xylon (wood) makes perfect sense in a vacuum.

                                                But these researchers have doomed themselves to forever explaining that no, they didn't misspell nylon, and yes, this is something completely different.

                                                • stavros 11 months ago
                                                  Yes but it's not Nyxylon, it's Nxylon
                                                  • birracerveza 10 months ago
                                                    I read the article and I kept reading it as Nyxylon, then I read the explanation and now I'm wondering why they didn't just call it that. Nyx + xylon.

                                                    It's a perfect standalone name, why ruin it? Maybe copyright/trademark issues?

                                                    • thaumasiotes 10 months ago
                                                      Is nyx a normal word for "dark"? I would have thought "night". How do Greeks normally talk about darkness?
                                                  • DrBazza 11 months ago
                                                    The name and the replies to parent remind me of why you should definitely check any name ending '-lon' that you think is a good idea to use: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2222783.stm
                                                    • Y_Y 11 months ago
                                                      Well Zyklon is just the German word for cyclone[0]. They's nothing inherently bad about it or the -lon suffix there.

                                                      The -lon in Nylon, however, refers to a true monstrosity and should be avoided at all costs.

                                                      [0] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon

                                                      • ceejayoz 11 months ago
                                                        I'd think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B is more the issue.
                                                        • dredmorbius 10 months ago
                                                          That particular regime appropriated and tainted a great many symbols which had long persisted with benign or positive connotations for centuries or millennia, let alone literal genocidal poison gas. 'Splainin' "just" is a heavy-lift attempt which is likely to fail for at least another few generations, if not longer.
                                                      • jug 11 months ago
                                                        I'm surprised they went for nxylon to combine nyx + xylon rather than, you know... nyxylon
                                                        • Aardwolf 11 months ago
                                                          Indeed, makes the pronunciation more clear plus two y's and an x in a word is just awesome!
                                                          • Y_Y 11 months ago
                                                            Not to mention the scrabble potential when it becomes genericized.
                                                        • trallnag 11 months ago
                                                          It's already trade marked
                                                          • 10 months ago
                                                          • JS-Sound 10 months ago
                                                            [flagged]
                                                            • mkl 10 months ago
                                                              From the article: "The team named and trademarked their discovery Nxylon (niks-uh-lon), after Nyx, the Greek goddess of the night, and xylon, the Greek word for wood."

                                                              Not sure why they didn't call it Nyxylon.

                                                            • raymond87butler 11 months ago
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                                                              • secult 11 months ago
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                                                                • dang 10 months ago
                                                                  "Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work."

                                                                  https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

                                                                  • Jarmsy 11 months ago
                                                                    [flagged]
                                                                    • rqtwteye 11 months ago
                                                                      Don’t forget that writing nodejs code qualifies you to have an opinion on anything scientific.
                                                                      • romanobro56 11 months ago
                                                                        +1 But I’d like to add I think the HN comment is right about 2% of the time
                                                                      • interstice 11 months ago
                                                                        Neither of those generally results in <1% light reflectance however.
                                                                        • hsbauauvhabzb 11 months ago
                                                                          Light doesn’t normally cut through solids, doesn’t mean lasers aren’t a useful or unexpected technology.