Juice rerouted to Venus in first lunar-Earth flyby
101 points by janpot 10 months ago | 44 comments- ninju 10 months agoHere's a deep link to an animated overview
https://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Videos/2024/08/Juice_s_lu...
(for those that are more visual)
- istultus 10 months agoThanks!
(everyone is more visual, though we have less aggregated data on how blind people use their visual cortex)
- istultus 10 months ago
- istultus 10 months agoIsn't it time, as the process is becoming normalized (as with the Artemis project) to start using the term "(gravitational) slingshot" in headlines?
- munchler 10 months agoAgreed. The word "rerouted" makes it sound like this represents a change of plans, which it is not.
- gmiller123456 10 months agoSadly, the tech savy of the news seems to be going the other direction IMHO. It might also be that "redirected" sounds like something went wrong and will get more clicks.
- munchler 10 months ago
- smcin 10 months ago- 8/2025 Venus flyby
- 2nd and 3rd Earth flybys 9/2026 and 1/2029
- 7/2031 arrives Jupiter; Jupiter orbit insertion and apocentre reduction with multiple Ganymede gravity assists
- 1/2032 .. 11/2034 Reduction of velocity with Ganymede–Callisto assists. Increase inclination with 10–12 Callisto gravity assists.
- 12/2034 enter Ganymede orbit for its close-up science mission
- 12/2035 will impact on Ganymede when runs out of propellant
summarizing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_Icy_Moons_Explorer#Sum...
- johnklos 10 months agoI'm not a fan of this inexact and incorrect language.
"Rerouted" means that the route was changed, not that the trajectory was changed. The route was planned before launch, and that hasn't changed. The headline makes it seem like there was an unplanned change.
- JumpCrisscross 10 months ago“using the gravity of Earth to send it Venus-bound”
While technically correct, this sentence is misleading. The ESA can do better.
Passing by a body can deflect a spacecraft. So technically, the Earth’s gravity sends the craft “Venus bound.” But “the gravity of Earth” imparts no net delta-v and wouldn’t on its own allow the craft to reach Venus.
A “gravity assist around a planet changes a spacecraft's velocity (relative to the Sun) by entering and leaving the gravitational sphere of influence of a planet” [1]. The Earth’s revolution around the Sun gets the craft to Venus, not the Earth’s gravity.
- jessriedel 10 months agoThe gravity of the Earth absolutely changes the speed of the probe.
In terms of the basic momentum transfers, non-propulsive gravity assists are essentially the same as elastic collisions with balls of non-equal mass. In particular, energy can be transferred, and that is mediated by the interaction forces: if a very heavy ball is rolling along at speed v and I place a tiny ball at rest in front of it, the tiny ball will bounce off at about 2v. We could certainly say “the atomic forces between the heavy ball and the tiny ball during the collision propel the tiny ball to its new destination”. This is true even though the tiny ball’s speed is constant in the center-of-mass frame.
- JumpCrisscross 10 months ago> non-propulsive gravity assists are essentially the same as elastic collisions with balls of non-equal mass
From the Earth’s frame of reference there is no change in delta-v other than a change in direction. It’s only from the Sun’s frame of reference that there is velocity added in the speed component (v_infinity, commonly). If you can find a single measurement to the contrary, that’s novel enough to be worth publishing.
That’s why you can’t gravity assist around the Sun to get around the Solar System faster.
- nick238 10 months agoI don't know what you mean by "gravity assist around the Sun":
1. Using the perihelion in an orbit "around the sun" as a gravity assist?: spacecraft usually care about their speed relative to the sun (characteristic energy, C3), and a (free) gravity assist around the sun won't do much. Dropping close to the sun to perform a powered bi-elliptic transfer could be a thing if you wanted to travel extreme distances (e.g. put a telescope at 500 AU to use the solar gravitational lens)
2. Using other bodies that are "around the sun" to get a gravity assist?: spacecraft do this all the time.
Also "get around the solar system faster":
1. Decrease the orbital period (lower orbits orbit faster): This is exactly what Messenger and Parker Solar Probe is doing flying by Venus/Mercury. They're 'bouncing' off of the planets, trading orbital energy and raising the planets' orbit around the sun while dropping their own.
2. Get to places faster: This is what outer planets probes (Voyagers 1/2, Cassini, New Horizons) do. If Jupiter wasn't there, these missions might not be possible.
- bgirard 10 months ago> From the Earth’s frame of reference there is no change in delta-v other than a change in direction.
But no one is talking about the Earth's frame of reference.
> But “the gravity of Earth” imparts no net delta-v and wouldn’t on its own allow the craft to reach Venus.
That's statement is untrue. Gravity assists with planets can provide net delta-v allowing spacecrafts to reach other planets. See the Voyager 2 gravity assists for one example.
- saagarjha 10 months agoYou’ve retreated to a different argument nobody was making.
- jessriedel 10 months agoYour first paragraph is exactly what I already said in my comment.
- nick238 10 months ago
- adolph 10 months ago> The gravity of the Earth absolutely changes the speed of the probe.
Wait! Wouldn't Earth's gravity take away when departing just as much as given when arriving? However, the probe's direction could change based on how close it passes Earth.
As the probe passes Earth, a mass proportionate amount of Earth's velocity would be shared to the probe. I have a distant grade-school memory of an analogy of two people on a roller-skate rink. The passing and passed persons link hands and some of the passed person's velocity is emparted to the passing person's velocity.
- mgsouth 10 months agoThe magnitude of the probe's "average" velocity relative to the Earth-object barycenter remains the same. If the universe was just the Earth and it, then you'd see the object making nice ellipical orbits around the Earth, and the Earth wobbling a bit.
However, the barycenter is moving relative to Venus. Imagine just the three things--the Earth, Venus, and this little object. Now imagine the object is coming almost directly from Venus, loops in a tight ellipse around the Earth, and goes shooting back almost directly towards Venus. The velocity relative to Venus changes enormously. Even if you're just concerned with the magnitude, some of the Earth - Venus relative motion gets added to the probe. Think bouncing a rubber ball against a wall that's moving towards you. The wall slows down a tiny amount, and almost all of the wall's velocity is added to the ball when it shoots back towards you.
- jessriedel 10 months ago> Wouldn't Earth's gravity take away when departing just as much as given when arriving?
Only in the Earth’s center-of-mass frame. In the solar system rest frame, the probe leaves with a different speed than it entered with.
> However, the probe's direction could change based on how close it passes Earth.
Both the magnitude and the direction of the velocity vector change.
- mgsouth 10 months ago
- wongarsu 10 months agoEverything you gain from gravity you have to give back on the way out. You can change the shape of your orbit that way, for example rotating it or making it more elliptical. But if we are talking about gaining energy from a gravity assist it would be more accurate to describe that as stealing some of the rotational energy of the planet.
- jessriedel 10 months ago> Everything you gain from gravity you have to give back on the way out.
This is true only in the center-of-mass frame, and that's true for all conservative forces.
If I have a bowling ball covered in springs and I throw it at a marble at speed v, the marble will traveling at a speed 2v after the collision. It would be completely correct and not misleading to say "the springs on the bowling ball accelerated the marble to 2v" even though the marble's speed in the center-of-mass frame is the same before and after the collision.
It's also true that the energy gained by the marble comes from the bowling ball in the rest frame. That doesn't make the first statement wrong or misleading. It just means that you like thinking about things in the center-of-mass frame.
- jessriedel 10 months ago
- JumpCrisscross 10 months ago
- verzali 10 months agoCommon mistake, but it is just ESA, not "the ESA". Just as it is NASA and not "the NASA".
- adolph 10 months agoPrepositions in English are highly idiomatic. Although there are some rules for usage, much preposition usage is dictated by fixed expressions. [0]
Prepositions are fascinating. Why is it that NASA and ESA don't get a "the" but the Sun, Earth, Moon and USA do? Why does it always feel wrong when Apple doesn't use "the" before iPod, iPhone, etc?
0. https://academicguides.waldenu.edu/writingcenter/grammar/pre...
- thomukas 10 months ago“The” is not a preposition but a definite article.
- thomukas 10 months ago
- 10 months ago
- adolph 10 months ago
- anigbrowl 10 months agoI read 'send' as being about the change in direction rather than any change in velocity.
- 10 months ago
- jessriedel 10 months ago
- xeonmc 10 months agoIn other news, Lunchables may soon be meeting its demise: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lunchables-lead-sodium-consumer...
- snapcaster 10 months agoInteresting article but i think posted on wrong thread
- MatthiasPortzel 10 months agoTheres a Sci-Fi story called 17776 which features a sentient version of Juice as a main character. In this interpretation, Juice is a fan of Lunchables, so it would be a shame if they stopped production before Juice became sentient.
- MatthiasPortzel 10 months ago
- snapcaster 10 months ago