The first nuclear clock will test if fundamental constants change
288 points by beefman 10 months ago | 182 comments- mikewarot 10 months agoLet's assume they manage to make a nuclear clock out of this, with an Allan drift that's low enough to be useful. Once that's done, it'll take years of observation to measure any meaningful differences and gather enough data to notice something.
Meanwhile, moving the height of anything a centimeter, the position of the moon, and a whole other host of noise sources have to be canceled out.
I have no doubt this will be done... and it will be awe inspiring to hear it all told after the fact.
While you're waiting... I found this really cool meeting documented on YouTube[1] that has the clearest explanation of how Chip Scale Atomic clocks work I've ever seen.
I look forward to Chip Scale Optical Lattice clocks
- marcyb5st 10 months agoCan't they do something similar to Ligo/Virgo setups? I.e. Multiple experiments running the same or similar hardware so that you can remove the type of noise you mentioned easily enough.
Additionally, this feels like it is much cheaper to deploy compared to the interferometer hardware used by those experiments, so you can put enough replicas around the world to cancel out any local source of noise.
- incompatible 10 months ago> Meanwhile, moving the height of anything a centimeter, the position of the moon, and a whole other host of noise sources have to be canceled out.
Because time runs slower the stronger gravity becomes? I don't think it would be a problem, as long as the entire experimental apparatus is within the same gravity field for the duration of a particular measurement.
- mikewarot 10 months agoOptical lattice clocks are so precise these days, you can detect the difference in clock rates caused by a 2 centimeter difference in height. The higher clock will run faster.
In the famous thought experiment you can't tell the difference in an elevator in either a gravitational well, or accelerating frame. It turns out that is only true if the elevator is sufficiently small.
Sufficiently small is getting smaller every year.
- incompatible 10 months agoThe lower gravity clock will run faster, but the experiment should give the same result, regardless of which frame it's running in. The same way that the caesium-133 atom transition frequency is 9192631770 Hz, regardless of the gravitational field.
- moi2388 10 months ago> It turns out that is only true if the elevator is sufficiently small.
Do you have more context, explanation or source for this? This is the first time I’ve heard of this being the case and would love to learn more about it.
- incompatible 10 months ago
- wongarsu 10 months agoThe gravity field we are in isn't that constant. The gravitational influence of the moon is strong enough to move a lot of water here on Earth. The other planets are a lot further away, but not completely without gravitational influence. Earth's orbit around the sun isn't a perfect circle and has ~3% difference between lowest and highest point. The seasonal shift in mass distribution on Earth is big enough that we used to correct for it in astronomical time observations (the up to 30ms or so between UT1 and UT2).
On the other hand, I don't think this experiment is really all that sensitive to gravity since we aren't really measuring time.
- incompatible 10 months agoBut it would depend on how long it takes to make a single measurement. Perhaps the moon wouldn't move far.
- incompatible 10 months ago
- mikewarot 10 months ago
- marcyb5st 10 months ago
- elihu 10 months ago> Lots of nuclei have similar spin transitions, but only in thorium-229 is this cancellation so nearly perfect. > > “It’s accidental,” said Victor Flambaum(opens a new tab), a theoretical physicist at the University of New South Wales in Sydney. “A priori, there is no special reason for thorium. It’s just experimental fact.” But this accident of forces and energy has big consequences.
...
> Physicists have developed equations to characterize the forces that bind the universe, and these equations are fitted with some 26 numbers called fundamental constants. These numbers, such as the speed of light or the gravitational constant, define how everything works in our universe. But lots of physicists think the numbers might not actually be constant.
Putting these things together, if the physical constants do change over time, then perhaps there really isn't anything special about thorium-229, it's just that it's the one where the electrical repulsion and strong nuclear forces balance out right now. In a billion years maybe it would be some other element. Maybe we're just lucky to be alive at a time when one of the isotopes of an existing element just happens to line up like this.
Perhaps too there's an optimal alignment that will happen or has already happened when those forces exactly balance out, and maybe that would be an ideal time (or place, if these constants vary by location) to make precise measurements in the changes to these constants, much like a solar eclipse was an ideal opportunity for verifying that light is bent by gravity.
- benreesman 10 months agoNot a physicist, just a passionate layperson.
AFAIK real practitioners choose their units such that a lot of things are unity: speed of light is 1 (hence E = M), h-bar is 1, etc.
There are some numbers like the “fine structure constant” (which I think is tantalizingly close to 1/137) that do seem difficult if not impossible to derive from others.
The pop-science explanation for this that a layperson like myself would know about is the “anthropic” principal, they are such because only in such regimes would anyone ask the question.
I don’t know what real scientists think about this.
- cryptonector 10 months agoThe speed of light will always be seen to be the same no matter what, no matter where you are, no matter when you are. That's because we measure the speed of light with light, and we measure distances using light or light-by-proxy (because the electronic interactions that make normal forces what they are... electronic and subject to the speed of light, as is everything else).
Other constants might change, but it would be very surprising if the speed of light (as observed locally) could possibly vary.
- simpaticoder 10 months agoc is no longer measured, it is defined, and unless some contradiction to special relativity is discovered, c cannot change. If the speed of causality changes, then our measure of distance would change. For example, if c halves in some sense, then this means light travels half as far during N ticks of a clock, and the meter will halve (and all internet latencies will approx double!). If we keep the old meter, then we might say c has changed; it's truly a matter of definition (and practicality) at that point.
- nyc111 10 months agoSame goes for their new thorium “clock”. They define it as their unit to measure everything else. They assume that all constants may be changing but not their thorium clock. I think this is an unjustified assumption.
- nyc111 10 months ago
- mattashii 10 months agoWouldn't a different speed of light impact the Schwarzschild radius of black holes of a given mass?
Assuming that you can create a standard clock, and given a black hole of standard mass, you can then measure speed of light in black hole radii per unit of time, which will differ with different speeds of light.
- orlp 10 months ago> Wouldn't a different speed of light impact the Schwarzschild radius of black holes of a given mass?
No it wouldn't. Our fundamental unit of distance (the meter) is defined in terms of the speed of light, so the radius will stay exactly the same, in meters.
- orlp 10 months ago
- oneshtein 10 months agoWe can try to use gravitational waves (speed of gravitation propagation) to measure length.
- tsimionescu 10 months agoGravitational waves travel at the speed of light as well. So if the speed of light changes, so would the speed of gravity waves, presumably - otherwise, they would probably not be equal today (though of course it could always be a coincidence).
- tsimionescu 10 months ago
- mystified5016 10 months agoSpeed of light can also be derived from the speed of a signal through a length of wire.
- jon_richards 10 months agoI think the point is that if the speed of light changes, so does the length of the wire.
- jon_richards 10 months ago
- simpaticoder 10 months ago
- vlovich123 10 months agoYou’re assuming a monotonous linear change. It could be periodic or jumping between discontinuous values.
- benreesman 10 months ago
- thomassmith65 10 months ago
In my ignorant, non-physicist head, gravity always struck me as a force that would make sense as variable.These numbers, such as the speed of light or the gravitational constant, define how everything works in our universe. But lots of physicists think the numbers might not actually be constant.
Maybe that would explain all the missing 'dark matter', or even provide an alternate explanation as to why so many species on our planet were larger millions of years ago (assuming an explanation for these two phenomena isn't self-contradictory, which, given my lack of physics background, it might well be!)
- nyc111 10 months agoThe article mentions 26 constants but it seems there is more than that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_physical_constants
And I think if the constant is a ratio, like the fine structure constant, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-structure_constant no change can be detected, even if there were a change because the ratio will stay the same. Likewise a constant like pi will stay the same because it is a ratio.
- jjk166 10 months agoThere are 26 fundamental constants, ie values that can not be determined from theory alone and need to be experimentally measured, which all other constants can be written in terms of. And it's not even a specific 26; 1/c is just as valid a constant as c, and you could rewrite any equation to use that instead of c.
For ratios, the constancy of the ratio is exactly what they seek to test.
- jjk166 10 months ago
- FollowingTheDao 10 months agoThis always seems like a logical error to me and perhaps someone can explain:
To measure a constant, you need something constant, but you do not know if something is constant if you do not have something constant to measure it against. (False premise?)
I believe we can only assume things are constant, but they only appear constant.
I you read the work of the physicist Julian Barbour regarding time I think you will be in for some remarkable insights. "Time arises out of change".
- jjk166 10 months agoIt's okay to measure one thing with something else that's variable. For example let's say I want to determine aluminum's coefficient of thermal expansion. I have a block of aluminum which I am measuring with a steel ruler. Both objects will change size if I vary the temperature, but by measuring both at several temperatures I can determine the ratio of their coefficients of thermal expansion. Funnily enough, if I'm using a mercury thermometer I'm really measuring everything relative to mercury's coefficient of thermal expansion.
- gus_massa 10 months agoIt's possible to measure the ratio of some values that we think are constants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimensionless_physical_constan... and see if they are the same here now and in old far away galaxies.
- jjk166 10 months ago
- 1970-01-01 10 months agoMatter in other galaxies would behave differently from matter in the Milky Way if fundamental constants are not always true. I argue about this sometimes. Others keep stating that the wavelengths are equal, so everything else must be.
- gmueckl 10 months agoI think the better way to ask this question is: how much large scale spatial variation can there be in the laws of physics so that the observable behavior doesn't contradict existing observations? As far as I remember, this has been studied, but I can't find a reference right now.
- jepler 10 months agowikipedia has a high level review of current constraints: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-variation_of_fundamental_...
fine-structure constant: less than 10^−17 per year gravitational constant: less than 10^−10 per year proton-electron mass ratio: less than 10^−16 per year
- canadianfella 10 months ago[dead]
- jepler 10 months ago
- gitaarik 10 months agoWell, if you think about it, on a large scale of the universe, our laws are helped by our mathematical inventions of dark matter and dark energy. So is there really dark matter and dark energy, or is our understanding of the laws of the universe incomplete?
- cthalupa 10 months agoMany, many, many scientists have asked this question. Many have made careers out of arguing the case.
But, the overwhelming majority of scientists that start out asking those questions ultimately land on the mainstream theories around dark matter and dark energy being our best, most consistent, and broadest ranging answers.
If someone were to come to them with a better theory that could explain more completely the sum total of these observations they would almost certainly be open minded about it.
So... is there really dark matter and dark energy? Probably. We've got a whole lot of evidence that isn't explained better by any alternatives. But I doubt any of these scientists would say it's totally impossible.
- gitaarik 10 months agoYes of course, it's the best theory we currently have. Also Newton's gravitational theory was the best explanation until someone came with a paradigm shift that explained the observations better. And we seem to be quite stuck with the current theories, so I suspect we might need another paradigm shift.
- gitaarik 10 months ago
- foxyv 10 months agoAs I understand it, dark matter and dark energy are just placeholders for discrepancies between our current physical model and observations made by telescopes like Hubble and Kepler. This could mean either that our measurements are inaccurate, or that the model is incomplete. Honestly, I think that both are extremely likely.
- AlexAndScripts 10 months agoDark matter (matter that has mass but does not interact in any other way) might be the literal solution. But there are also other suggestions (MOND is a big one).
The https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_Cluster is pretty interesting.
- BurningFrog 10 months ago"Dark matter" and "dark energy" could just as well be called "unexplained matter" and "unexplained energy".
These terms are mostly placeholders for things we don't understand.
- AlexAndScripts 10 months ago
- roywiggins 10 months agoOur understanding of the laws of the universe is incomplete either way. If dark matter exists, we still don't know what it's made of or exactly what properties it has.
- wisty 10 months agoThe mainstream thought is that they are real and undetected, but there are theories that they aren't and there's plenty of attempts to modify laws to explain them away (and I suspect there's some wistful thinking that there's maybe a Noble prize there, so there's already been a fair bit of work done, even though it's very controversial).
- foxyv 10 months agoTo be fair, the last time someone explored a discrepancy between known physics and empirical observation we got quantum mechanics and relativity. There is a commonly held belief that as observations outpace theory that we'll have a similar leap in technology. I think this is why everyone was so excited about the LHC and Kepler Observatory.
I don't know whether the next breakthrough in physics will be quite as relevant in our lives as quantum and relativistic physics. It would be nice if we could link gravity and E/M like we did with the strong and weak forces. Who knows what we could do if we knew how those two go together.
- foxyv 10 months ago
- thewarpaint 10 months ago> So is there really dark matter and dark energy, or is our understanding of the laws of the universe incomplete?
These propositions are not mutually exclusive, the former implies the latter, right?
- cthalupa 10 months ago
- mysecretaccount 10 months agoIf the fundamental constants are not constant, why not expect them to change in this galaxy as well? The appeal to "other galaxies" seems suspect to me, a way to evade falsifiability.
- itishappy 10 months ago"A way to evade falsifiability" is the goal of the statement, given that we've been searching for evidence to the contrary for as long as we've been able. We haven't found any, and we've searched close-at-hand the most thoroughly.
- mr_toad 10 months agoThe galaxy is very small compared to the size the universe. If there were observable differences from 100k light years away (so just 100k years ago), the differences across billions of light years should be much more noticeable.
- wongarsu 10 months agoIf the constants are the same in distant galaxies, then that's either a massive coincidence or the constants are stable over both time and space (because of lightspeed delay). The further away we look, the more obvious any effect should be.
If we detect a change then it's worth checking if this is also observable over shorter distances and timescales, and at that point we would look at our own galaxy.
- mbrubeck 10 months agoIf the constants change over very long time spans, we could observe this by looking at distant galaxies from billions of years ago. We don’t have a way to make similar observations within our own galaxy.
- lupusreal 10 months agoWhat if the constants only changed over incredibly small scales, vibrating back and forth between two very similar numbers like a standing wave with extremely small amplitude and wavelength, such that any measurement done on even small scales has trouble seeing anything but the average?
- lupusreal 10 months ago
- 1970-01-01 10 months agoThe idea is they're fixed/set by the overall size of the galaxy.
- itishappy 10 months ago
- rkagerer 10 months agoWhat's meant by "the wavelengths are equal"? (And have we measured comparable wavelengths in other galaxies?)
- itishappy 10 months agoThe wavelengths of physical processes are equal. If fundamental constants changed, we'd expect, say, the Lyman series to change too.
- analog31 10 months agoYes, we've measured comparable wavelengths. It's one way we can measure the red shift. Not just (red shifted) absolute wavelengths, but the relative spacing between them are quite sensitive to physical constants. These spectra can also be used for identifying the elemental composition of stars.
- cryptonector 10 months ago> What's meant by "the wavelengths are equal"?
Absorption lines of the elements in the stars whose starlight we observe. THey are the same after correction for redshift.
- fnordpiglet 10 months agoPresumably they mean propagating EM radiation we observe from earth appears to behave the same on earth as we observe from distant galaxies since the event that created them happened at a time much different than ours and a distant region of space.
- saalweachter 10 months agoI mean, technically the EM radiation we observe from distant galaxies does look different than the EM radiation we observe locally: it's red-shifted.
I'm sure someone has proposed this is due to physical constants changing over time, rather than the expansion of space-time, and I'm sure someone else has explained why this is wrong.
- saalweachter 10 months ago
- itishappy 10 months ago
- cryptonector 10 months agoNot necessarily. We have redshift and we use that to measure distance (in space and time). If fundamental constants were different in the past that might merely change only what distances we measure.
- analog31 10 months agoThat would probably require quite a coincidence, since the redshift and the spacing between wavelengths both depend on the same constants but in different ways.
- analog31 10 months ago
- renewiltord 10 months agoOne thing I have been arguing for a long time is that the fundamental constants are different until we observe them. i.e. if we don't observe it, it's possible for a tennis ball to travel through a wall. But in the universal program, if we will now or later observe the result, then it won't happen. But it'll happen so long as we will never observe the result. In fact, it's probably happened many times.
No one has proven that this is impossible, AFAIK.
- ezrast 10 months agoWhat does "impossible" mean to you if not that a thing and it's consequences can never be observed?
- renewiltord 10 months agoImpossible means it does not happen, not that it does not happen only when we look. Just because we can't see it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. After all, as the comment I replied to pointed out, other galaxies can have different constants. We have to be humble and admit we just don't know.
- renewiltord 10 months ago
- dmateos 10 months agoBy "Observe" dont they mean the act of any photon "hitting/interacting with" the system collapsing it into a known/predictable state.
Not specifically a "intelligent" observer per se.
- Gooblebrai 10 months agoHow can you even prove a negative?
- Intermernet 10 months agoLogical mangling time: If you can't prove a negative, how can you prove that you can't?
- Intermernet 10 months ago
- ezrast 10 months ago
- gmueckl 10 months ago
- qsdf38100 10 months agoIf fundamental constants could change, this would violate energy conservation, and the second law of thermodynamics. Someone once said, if your pet theory violates the second law, there is no hope. Or am I missing something?
- tines 10 months agoEnergy conservation isn't as sacred as many people (including me) assume. See for example https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2010/02/22/energy-...
- DiogenesKynikos 10 months agoAnd in fact, energy is not conserved (and cannot even be defined) globally in General Relativity. There is a different conservation law, called the conservation of stress-energy.
- kibwen 10 months agoConservation of energy is the first law. I don't suppose anyone has any doubts about the second law?
- tines 10 months agoThe second law is not a law in the same way like the law of gravity is, it’s more a statistical statement. It simply states that more probable things will happen more often. How do we know what’s more probable? It’s what happens more often. It’s only inviolable insofar as we presume we know all the laws of nature.
Also, the second law is only applicable to closed systems. The universe may not be a closed system in the way we normally think of it.
- tines 10 months ago
- DiogenesKynikos 10 months ago
- sesm 10 months agoThermodynamics by definition only studies equilibrium processes. Applying thermodynamics laws too broadly is a common misconception, even among those who study physics at university, because not many people get far enough to study physical kinetics (like Landau vol 10).
- jjk166 10 months agoViolating energy conservation (the first law of thermodynamics) does not inherently violate the second law of thermodynamics. It's not hard to imagine a situation where the energy of a closed system changes but not enough to decrease the total entropy of the system, for example if the energy of the closed system decreased.
- b3lvedere 10 months agoMy best guess at this moment is that all the fields can or may influence each other, resulting in relative changes.
Some things may seem incredibly constant, but have to be measured in such a ridiculous small or big (time) frame, that it's barely not measurable at all.
- tines 10 months ago
- User23 10 months agoIt’s still something of an open question whether or not G is actually constant.
Not only that, but the results differ depending on whether atomic or dynamical time is used! In the latter case no change is measured using lunar reflectors.
- ForOldHack 10 months agoRemind me what are the dimensions of G?
- ForOldHack 10 months ago
- MoSattler 10 months agoPossibly a dumb question: How do you determine the accuracy of the most precise clock? You don’t have anything more accurate to measure it against, right?
- heisenzombie 10 months agoI think you might mean the one _electron_ conjecture. It’s fun because you have anti-electrons whose Feynman diagrams look like electrons going backwards in time. So you could conceivably be observing the tangled world line of a single electron bouncing back and forward in time — sometimes observing it as an antielectron.
Doesn’t work with photons because there’s not an anti-photon.
Anyway it’s sort of a fun “woah!” moment that Feynman was so good at producing, but I don’t think it’s taken particularly seriously as a theory.
- cvoss 10 months agoPositrons don't merely look like time-reversed electrons, and it's not limited to Feynman diagrams. Everything we know about those particles, experimentally and in our best theory, says that they literally are identical but for a minus sign on the time variable.
And it does work for photons because there is an anti-photon: the photon itself. The particle is symmetric under time reversal.
- heisenzombie 10 months agoOf course you’re right about photons!
- heisenzombie 10 months ago
- gradschool 10 months agoThe version of that story I remember is that John Wheeler said to Feynman that the reason all electrons are alike is that there's only one electron, which we perceive as a positron when it's going backwards in time. Feynman instantly refuted the idea by pointing out that there are more electrons than positrons.
- heisenzombie 10 months agoYes I think I probably saw/read Feynman retelling the story.
And yes, where’s all the antimatter, right!?
- heisenzombie 10 months ago
- cvoss 10 months ago
- BurningFrog 10 months agoIf the laws of physics can drift over time, might that explain the Big Bang?
- __MatrixMan__ 10 months agoI don't think so. There was no time before the Big Bang, so it's not like the laws of physics have anywhere to drift from such that they're in a bang-causing configuration at t=0.
- vlovich123 10 months agoI think that’s an overly strong statement. There’s a theory that the Big Bang followed a Big Crunch from a “previous” universe [1]. Or our universe is a black hole within another higher dimension universe since the edge of our universe looks a lot like what we would think the event horizon looks like within a universe [2]
It’s correct to say that the time of our universe begins at the Big Bang, at least as far as we can measure it in any way and according to the currently dominant theories, but there are ways that it would make sense to talk about a time before the Big Bang and what caused it to happen.
[1] https://www.universetoday.com/38195/oscillating-universe-the...
[2] https://www.discovery.com/science/Universe-Inside-Every-Blac...
- cthalupa 10 months agoBig Crunch/Cyclic Universe theories are generally considered to be improbable based on our current understanding of the universe.
That there is no time before the big bang (possibly with some qualifiers to define the big bang, start of the universe, etc.) is the overwhelmingly prevailing view of modern cosmologists, from how I understand things.
- __MatrixMan__ 10 months agoI think it would be clearer if such theories were described as claiming that a certain bang wasn't actually the big one.
I suppose these are equivalent, but one feels like a historical distinction while the other feels like a thermodynamic one and I think it's thermodynamics that contrasts the theories better.
- toenail 10 months ago> There’s a theory that the Big Bang followed a Big Crunch
Does that theory come with a testable hypothesis?
- cthalupa 10 months ago
- BurningFrog 10 months agoTo flesh out my thought, I'm thinking something must have changed to make the universe go from a previous stable state to the BANG state.
A weakening of some force keeping things together seems as likely as anything to me.
- wongarsu 10 months agoMany argue there is no "before" the bang state. Time and space might well have started with the big bang. There would be an absolute zero point in time, and nothing could be before that just like nothing can be colder than 0K.
For a while there was also the theory that the universe is cyclical: it eventually collapses and from that compressed state a new big bang is born. That seems very unlikely with what we know right now though.
Then there are various forms of the multiverse theory where are kind of spontaneously created in a continuous process. Each universe experiences a big bang in the moment it is created, so talking about "before the big bang" only makes sense outside the universe
But I don't think anything rules out a universe laying dormant and then something triggering the big bang either. Changing fundamental constants might well be that something. They don't even have to change continuously or frequently for this to work
As you might have guessed, testing any of these is really difficult. Not necessarily impossible, but really really difficult
- __MatrixMan__ 10 months agoThat sounds like a fine idea to me. I'm just trying to point out that if it's true, then that bang wasn't the big one.
We can have several very large bangs, but there can be only one Big Bang™, and nothing comes before it. This is for the same reason that Harry Potter is a wizard, it's not about evidence, it's just defined that way.
- wongarsu 10 months ago
- Zamicol 10 months agoCosmic inflation is a large difficulty for the big bang as there is no mechanics explaining its process.
- vlovich123 10 months ago
- __MatrixMan__ 10 months ago
- klasko 10 months agoMaybe Boards of Canada was right, and constants are changing.
- 10 months ago
- lo_fye 10 months agoSeems like a case of premature naming to me! If we have to test whether or not they change, they shouldn't already be called "constants".
- datavirtue 10 months agoThey are definitely used as constants. A static agreed-upon number is assigned to a CONST and used in calculations.
- datavirtue 10 months ago
- chadrustdevelo 10 months agoIf it does change, for what ever reason, like, what does it actually mean?
Someone big brain explain to me why this is a big deal.
- jasekt 10 months agoIt basically invalidates modern science in the same way Einstein invalidated Newtonian physics. It would mean we have pretty good approximation on how things work, but we are fundamentally wrong. So it would be an exciting time to be a physicist, as it would force us to rethink how things really are from atoms, to stars and the beginning of the universe.
- left-struck 10 months agoIt does not invalidate science. The scientific method is the process by which we build gradually towards a clearer picture of the ground truth if there is one. Even if by “science” you just meant our current understanding of the universe as opposed to the method we gain that understanding, then this would not invalidate that, it only invalidates a small part.
Yes, we are fundamentally wrong, I would hope that all physicists recognise that we don’t have a perfect explanation for how things work yet, this would be just another step in that process, but an exciting one indeed.
- jasekt 10 months agoThanks for point it out. I meant physics, not science :)
- jasekt 10 months ago
- shiroiushi 10 months agoDoesn't the fact that both General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics don't make correct predictions at all scales already show we're fundamentally wrong?
- cthalupa 10 months agoMaybe. Maybe not. There might not be a Universal Theory of Everything. Everyone hopes there's something and most scientists do believe that something is out there, but the idea that there might be reasons we can't unify them or that there are physical limits that prevent us from gathering the information we need to fully suss things out isn't exactly fringe science.
- cthalupa 10 months ago
- left-struck 10 months ago
- jasekt 10 months ago
- jnewbert 10 months agothis is mind blowing to see
- Bluestein 10 months ago"When you absolutely, totally, fundamentally, have to, fundamentally be sure" :)
- mseepgood 10 months agoThey probably do change, but extremely slowly. It would feel strange if there were something fixed in the universe.
- shagie 10 months agoThe fossil reactor at Oklo https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap100912.html and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_nuclear_fission_reacto... can be used for that question.
From Wikipedia:
The natural reactor of Oklo has been used to check if the atomic fine-structure constant α might have changed over the past 2 billion years. That is because α influences the rate of various nuclear reactions. For example, ¹⁴⁹Sm captures a neutron to become ¹⁵⁰Sm, and since the rate of neutron capture depends on the value of α, the ratio of the two samarium isotopes in samples from Oklo can be used to calculate the value of α from 2 billion years ago. Several studies have analysed the relative concentrations of radioactive isotopes left behind at Oklo, and most have concluded that nuclear reactions then were much the same as they are today, which implies that α was the same too.
- User23 10 months agoIs there a good explanation of how that isn’t just measuring the expansion and contraction of a ruler with itself? Don’t we know the reactor is 2 billion years old because of radio dating?
- adastra22 10 months agoNo, those are separate processes.
The isotopes produced during the natural nuclear reactor 2 billion years ago were produced in certain ratios because of the relative sizes of their nuclear cross sections, which depend on the fine structure constant.
The isotopes used in radio dating are produced by spontaneous transmutation over time, which is governed by entirely different processes.
- thowawatp302 10 months agoNo, because you’re comparing the various proportions, it’s like comparing the contraction of various rulers made from different woods.
- AstralStorm 10 months agoWell, it's dated against pulsars and stars. But those sources of information have a bit of an error bar on time-space distance.
Which is why a synthetic clock is needed here. That will have a known inception date and the changes if any can be compared.
The problem with both is they're not exactly fully closed systems anyway so there will be some margin of error ever with the length of the operation.
And during the test, we might just find out something completely unaccounted for in current physics... That isn't a universal constant related at all.
- Vecr 10 months agoIt would be somewhat hard to tell if there's circularity somewhere, but you should be able to date it somewhat with the quantity of oxygen in the atmosphere at various times and general geological processes.
- adastra22 10 months ago
- User23 10 months ago
- kimixa 10 months agoWhy would it be "strange"? What reference can we possibly use to compare?
This sort of thing tends to be so far from "common sense" it probably doesn't make sense to try to reason about it from that perspective.
- gus_massa 10 months agoIt's possible to measure the ratios of the constants, like mass_of_proton/mass_of_electron . Another is the fine structure constant, that is related to the charge of the electron (divided by a lot of other constants to cancel the units). Both of them are related to the spectral lines of the light emitted and absorbed by atoms, so if they changed the "color" of the other galaxies should have changed a little. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimensionless_physical_constan...
- freeone3000 10 months agoI know nothing about this: what if the color did change, to be slightly redder?
- freeone3000 10 months ago
- gus_massa 10 months ago
- __MatrixMan__ 10 months agoIf nothing remains constant then there's no identifying feature to point at and conclude that my experience yesterday and my experience today occurred in the same universe. Surely that feels even weirder than letting there be something that can be used as primary key for universe identification.
- jjeaff 10 months agothis is a bit tangential, but I once had a physics professor describe light waves as standing still and everything else is just moving around it.
- Vecr 10 months agoIt's kind of silly to take the perspective of light, because it doesn't experience time (obviously, but you know what I mean). Maybe there will be new physics on that like there was with neutrinos, but it can't be too much of an effect.
- bluGill 10 months ago> it can't be too much of an effect.
That is the problem with any argument for some new physics - it might exist, but it can't have much effect or we would detect it. Generally I only see people arguing for new physics because they really want faster than light travel (typically also without all the weird time effects, but a small minority would accept it with time effects)
- mystified5016 10 months agoIn case anyone else is curious about this fact: it has to do with time dilation. As your velocity through space approaches c, your velocity through time approaches zero.
Since photons move at c, they experience zero time between creation and destruction.
- bluGill 10 months ago
- User23 10 months agoMakes sense really. If velocity is the derivative of position with respect to time and photons don’t experience time how would they have velocity?
It reminds me of my silly One Photon Conjecture. That is, there’s only one photon that pops in an out of space as required by coupling events. Since it doesn’t experience time saying it can’t be in two or more places at the same time isn’t meaningful!
- underbooter 10 months ago"There are only two bits in the universe. 1b0 and 1b1. All instances of 0 and 1 are merely the same bits, traveling forward and backward through time."
- underbooter 10 months ago
- ck2 10 months agowell no, photons move at the speed limit of causality in this universe
they actually arrive slightly later than neutrinos to observers on earth because neutrinos just plow through virtually anything including stars and planets while photons have to travel the path affected by gravity
photons aren't affected by gravity directly because massless but their path, their limit of causality, is affected
- AstralStorm 10 months agoEven if it had a rest frame, Schrödinger is a pain.
An object at full rest is according to its wave/path equation literally everywhere at all times.
However superconductivity has a bunch of truck sized holes for this. Specifically we don't quite understand Bose-Einstein condensate completely. Funky entities like time crystals appear in the mathematics, etc.
- underbooter 10 months ago> neutrinos just plow through virtually anything ... while photons have to travel the path affected by gravity
why would you think that neutrinos can magically ignore the curvature of spacetime? completely wrong.
- raattgift 10 months agoNeutrinos are known to have mass thanks to flavour oscillation. In empty space neutrinos will always be outraced by photons.
What you seem to be trying to remember is that certain types of extragalactic supernovae produce a tremendous number of neutrinos, and those can be detected on Earth before the associated light does. The reason is that both are produced deep within the dying star, and while the star's outer layers are largely transparent to the neutrinos (not completely: it's neutrino pressure that makes the star explode[1]), the deep-in-the-star supernova photons bounce around inside. That's very much not empty space.
https://www.astronomy.com/science/in-a-supernova-why-do-we-d...
We can detect type SN1a supernovae out to about z=4 (redshift of about four in light-years is about twelve billion years of light travel time from the supernova to us). That's not really enough for the delayed pulse of light to catch up to the neutrinos produced also produced in the dying star's interior at the same time. Also, not all of the emitted photons are likely to scatter off gas and dust in any interstellar medium along the way, so the relative delay at Earth of the bright electromagnetic flash is dominated by the dying star's outer layers.
(There are more complicated electromagnetic signals like light echos <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_echo> that can follow on much later; there aren't any neutrino equivalents really).
> photons aren't affected by gravity directly because massless but their path, their limit of causality, is affected
Not sure what you are trying to say here, but photons certainly both feel and source spacetime curvature. In empty space, photons always travel along null geodesics. The distribution of all matter, energy and momentum, the expanding background of inter-galaxy-cluster space, and the collapsing background of galaxy clusters (and galaxies, and components of galaxies like their central black holes and stars) picks out what geodesics fill spacetime. Some are null, and massless things can find themselves on ("couple to") them. Some are timelike, and massive things can find themselves on them.
Geodesics are free-fall trajectories, so are inertial as in "things in motion tend to stay in motion", and barring any further accelerations a photon coupled to a null geodesic will stay on that null geodesic and a neutrino coupled to a timelike geodesic will stay on that timelike geodesic.
Some neutrinos and photons start on parallel geodesics within the supernova's exploding core. Each neutrino stays coupled to its timelike geodesic all the way to detection on Earth. The photons are all forced off their initial null geodesic by mostly scattering off nuclear matter near the star's core, find themselves on a second null geodesic, more nuclear scattering, possibly some scattering off ions in outer layers, and each ultimately might end up on a geodesic that it stays on until it reaches Earth.
- --
[1] on neutrinos driving the explosions and how alot of them stick around as they are captured into heavier chemical elements and isotopes https://www.mpg.de/11368641/neutrinos-supernovae
- AstralStorm 10 months ago
- ForOldHack 10 months agoBrilliant. Your professor for saying that, and you for recognizing it's significance.
- ant6n 10 months agoLike the Planet Express ship? Sounds like professor Farnsworth.
- shagie 10 months agoThe most recent Kurzgesagt video (on time travel) https://youtu.be/dBxxi5XAm3U had this passage:
> To explain how this actually works without making a math video, we have to make a lot of physicists grumpy, so please keep in mind that we are simplifying and lying a bit.
And that simplification / lie is that everything moves at the speed of light in spacetime. We are moving at basically 0 in the space coordinates and 1s/s in the time dimension (which is "light speed" in the time dimension). However... (1:45 in the video)
> Photons, light particles, move at the speed of light through space. They don’t experience any time passing because their speed in that time dimension is 0. In the time dimension they are frozen in place. If you see light on earth, from the photon’s perspective it was just on the surface of the sun and then suddenly crashed into your eye with nothing happening in between.
... and this falls into the Lie-to-children domain. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children#Examples_in_ed...
- thowawatp302 10 months agoYeah isn’t it a simplification of the idea an object at rest has has a four-velocity where U^0 = c (so a velocity of c entirely the time direction) but a photon doesn’t have a rest frame to do this calculation?
- thowawatp302 10 months ago
- Vecr 10 months ago
- bitmasher9 10 months agoIf they changed in a way to have meaningful impacts on how astronomical bodies operate we should be able to observe the change as some of the oldest light we observe is billions of years older than the newest light.
In fact, based on this we can tell that the fundamental constant the speed of light has not changed which I agree is very strange.
- vl 10 months agoIt comes down to what time is. I.e. what was before the Big Bang? If time didn’t exist before big bang, then speed of light emerged after big bang, and as such “changed”.
- vl 10 months ago
- psychoslave 10 months agoEither there is some unversal constants, or everything constantly change.
- hughesjj 10 months agoCould be both. Some things determined by some mathematical constraints will always be followed. Ex things like group theory and statistics will always be followed by any object subject to them, but how that manifests if the objects those rules act upon changes in form
- hughesjj 10 months ago
- adrian_b 10 months agoMost so called fundamental constants appear in the relationships between physical quantities only as a consequence of choosing arbitrary units.
It is possible to eliminate almost all fundamental constants by choosing so-called natural units for the base physical quantities, for instance the elementary charge as the unit of electric charge.
For all fundamental constants that can be eliminated by choosing natural units it makes no sense to discuss about changes of them.
Nevertheless, even when a natural system of units is used, there remain 2 fundamental constants (plus a few other fundamental constants that are used only in certain parts of quantum field theory).
The 2 important fundamental constants that cannot be eliminated are the Newtonian constant of gravitation, which is a measure of the intensity of the gravitational interaction, and a second fundamental constant that is a measure of the intensity of the electromagnetic interaction, which is frequently expressed as the so-called constant of the fine structure.
The meaning of the constant of the fine structure is that it is the ratio between the speed of light in vacuum and the speed of a charged particle with unit charge, like an electron, that rotates around another charged particle with unit charge, which is much heavier, like a nucleus, in the state with the lowest possible energy, i.e. like the ground state of a hydrogen atom, but where the nucleus would have infinite mass. The speed of the rotating particle is a measure of the strength of the electromagnetic interaction between two elementary charges.
So the only fundamental constants for which there could be a evolution in time are those that characterize the strengths of the electromagnetic interaction and of the gravitational interaction (and also the fundamental constants that characterize the strengths of the nuclear strong interactions and nuclear weak interactions).
The values of these fundamental constants that characterize the strengths of the different kinds of interactions determine the structure of the Universe, where the quarks are bound into nucleons, the nucleons are bound into nuclei, the nuclei are bound into atoms, the atoms are bound into molecules, the molecules are bound into solid or fluid bodies, which are bound by gravitation into big celestial bodies, then into stellar systems, then into galaxies, then into groups of galaxies.
Any changes in the strengths of the fundamental interactions would lead to dramatic changes in the structure of matter, which are not seen even in the distant galaxies.
So any changes in time of the true fundamental constants are very unlikely, while changes in the constants that appear as a consequence of choosing arbitrary units are not possible (because such fundamental constants are fixed by conventions, e.g. by saying that the speed of light in vacuum is 299,792,458 m/s).
- jfengel 10 months agoIn natural units, the Newton gravitational constant can be set to 1 as well.
You do still need a term to characterize the strength of gravity. They sometimes use η, which can be defined in terms of G, c, Planck's constant, and a fundamental mass like the electron. The result is a truly fundamental unitless constant.
The Standard Model has a dozen or so other fundamental constants, describing various mixing angles and fundamental masses (as ratios).
- adrian_b 10 months agoNope. While the Newton gravitational constant can be set in theory as 1, it cannot be set in practice.
The so-called Planck system of units where Newton's constant is set to 1 is an interesting mathematical curiosity, because in it all the physical quantities become dimensionless.
Nevertheless, when Newton's constant is set to 1, the number of fundamental constants is not reduced, but another constant that was 1 in other systems of natural units becomes a fundamental constant that must be measured experimentally, for instance the elementary charge.
Besides not having any advantage, because the number of fundamental constants in non-nuclear physics remains 2, the system where Newton's constant is set to 1 cannot be used in practice.
The reason is that the experimental measurement of Newton's constant has huge uncertainties. If its value is forced to be the exact "1", then those uncertainties are transferred to the absolute values of all other physical quantities. In such a system of units the only values that would be known precisely would be the ratios of two quantities of the same kind, e.g. the ratios of 2 lengths or of 2 masses. Any absolute value, such as the value of a length or the value of a mass, would be affected by huge uncertainties.
So the use of such a system of units is completely impossible, even if it is mentioned from time to time by naive people who know nothing about metrology. The choice of units for the physical quantities cannot be completely arbitrary, only units that ensure very low uncertainties for the experimental measurements are eligible.
Currently and in the foreseeable future, that means that one of the units that are chosen must be a frequency. For now that is the frequency corresponding to a transition in the spectrum of the cesium atom, which is likely to be changed in a few years to a frequency in the visible range or perhaps in the ultraviolet range. In a more distant future it might be changed to a frequency in a nuclear spectrum, like this frequency that has just been measured for Th229, if it would become possible to make better nuclear clocks than the current optical atomic clocks, which use either trapped ions or lattices of neutral atoms.
Some of the parameters of the "standard model" are fundamental constants associated to the strong and weak interactions. It is debatable whether it makes sense to call as fundamental constants the rest of the parameters, which are specific properties of certain objects, i.e. leptons and quarks.
- adrian_b 10 months ago
- addaon 10 months agoWhat about the constants that describe the (relative) rest masses of elementary particles? Since we don’t know the order of magnitude of neutrino masses, it seems improbable that even an order of magnitude change of those masses over time would lead to “dramatic changes in the structure of matter.”
- adrian_b 10 months agoThe masses of the particles and other specific properties, like magnetic moments, are not fundamental constants.
They are the properties of those particles. There are such properties for leptons, for hadrons, for nuclei, for atoms, for molecules, for chemical substances, for humans and so on.
Any object, either as small as an electron or as big as the Sun is characterized by various numeric properties, such as mass.
The fundamental constants are not specific to any particular object. As I have said, after eliminating the fundamental constants that are determined by conventional choices of the system of units, the only fundamental constants that remain are those that characterize the strength of each fundamental interaction, as expressed in a natural system of units.
Because most objects are composed of smaller subobjects, it should have been possible to compute their properties from the properties of their components. Starting from the properties of leptons and quarks, it should have been possible to compute the properties of hadrons, nuclei, atoms, molecules and so on.
Unfortunately we do not have any theory that can compute the desired properties with enough precision and in most cases even approximate values are impossible to compute. So almost all properties of particles, nuclei, atoms or molecules must be measured experimentally.
Besides the question whether the fundamental constants can change in time, one can put a separate question whether the properties of leptons and quarks can vary in time.
Some of the properties of leptons and quarks are constrained by symmetry rules, but there remain a few that could vary, for instance the mass ratio between muon and electron. It is likely that a future theory might discover that this mass ratio is not an arbitrary parameter, but the muon is a kind of excited state of the electron, in which case this mass ratio could be computed as a function of the fundamental constants, so the question whether it can vary would be reduced to the question about the variation of the fundamental constants.
- adrian_b 10 months ago
- bustergpt 10 months ago[flagged]
- jfengel 10 months ago
- shagie 10 months ago