The Trouble with Elon

89 points by pulisse 5 months ago | 66 comments
  • taeric 5 months ago
    I'm bummed that this is a paid post. I'm not sure I care enough about it to subscribe to another substack. If there are revelations in the lower half of the post, please share and I can change my mind.

    I can say my own personal worry/concern regarding Elon and similar, is I don't know how far "similar" goes. I'm fairly skeptical of any hero worship in the business sectors, but it is hard to shake the idea that a lot of current tech leadership is a bit more certain of their views than they should be. Especially politically/socially.

    All the more frustrating, as I feel that open criticism and dialogue have been weaponized against folks to a degree that we started punishing people for honestly acknowledging mistakes in the past.

    • VectorLock 5 months ago
      I'm guessing Elon welched on his bet otherwise he wouldn't have needed to try to monetize this.
      • orionsbelt 5 months ago
        It was for charity, not for his own pocket: "Elon bet me $1 million dollars (to be given to charity)"
      • esfandia 5 months ago
        Looks like he removed the paywall for this article? I was able to read the whole thing, and I'm not subscriber.
        • 5 months ago
          • gcr 5 months ago
            I too would love to know whether Elon kept his promise! Alas I'm not able to financially subscribe to another subscription product at the moment.
          • belter 5 months ago
            https://archive.is/hEpZG

            "...He included a link to a page on the CDC website, indicating that Covid was not even among the top 100 causes of death in the United States. This was a patently silly point to make in the first days of a pandemic. We continued exchanging texts for at least two hours. If I hadn’t known that I was communicating with Elon Musk, I would have thought I was debating someone who lacked any understanding of basic scientific and mathematical concepts, like exponential curves..."

            • hn1986 5 months ago
              Musk stopped being friends after he lost this bet:

              > Elon and I didn’t converge on a common view of epidemiology over the course of those two hours, but we hit upon a fun compromise: A wager. Elon bet me $1 million dollars (to be given to charity) against a bottle of fancy tequila ($1000) that we wouldn’t see as many as 35,000 cases of Covid in the United States (cases, not deaths).

            • sincerecook 5 months ago
              It's 2025, if you're just seeing the trouble with Elon now you're probably not as smart as you think you are. He's a fake and a con artist, and when he's not those things he's a ruthless tyrant. It's not a credit to Sam's moral character, which he clearly rates very highly, that he was ever friends with the guy in the first place. Sam likes elites, but he prefers them more refined. He's just lamenting that Elon's letting it all hang out now.
              • dwaltrip 5 months ago
                He wasn’t a fake 10-15 years ago… I know people who worked with him directly. He has a technical mind and an eye for practical solutions to hard problems (when he’s not acting deranged).

                He’s obviously far off the deep end now but the narrative that he is a complete charlatan is just plain wrong, as convenient as it would be.

                C’est La Vie

                • profstasiak 5 months ago
                  can you write a bit about how he is a con artist?
                  • sincerecook 5 months ago
                    Yeah, Tesla being a tech company instead of a car company is a con, all the publicity stunts - boring company, Hyperloop, Mars are all cons to attract attention. The crypto stuff is all a con. Elon is very good at getting a hype flywheel going, particularly in this age of man children.
                • thomasfromcdnjs 5 months ago
                  Pay wall.

                  Side note: I haven't liked anything of Harris since about 20 years ago during the new atheist movement, any suggestions for some of his more recent work?

                  • liamwire 5 months ago
                    I found his book Waking Up to be a phenomenal resource in discussing meditation, psychedelics, and spirituality without reaching for religion/unscientific guesswork. Free Will and On Lying were both interesting, shorter reads that I thought to be very persuasive as well.
                    • imartin2k 5 months ago
                      And his Waking Up app is amazing, and life changing (if one is open to practicing seeing consciousness as it is).
                      • jfengel 5 months ago
                        I did a 30 day trial of Waking Up, gifted from a friend who also finds it life-changing.

                        I did my best with it, but it didn't change my life. It was fine; sitting quietly for ten minutes a day is probably a good idea.

                        I appreciated that he tried to avoid using woo-woo language, but I often didn't understand what he was going for. That's probably inevitable: he's trying to induce a state that you can't get a feel for until you've done it. (I'm reminded of learning to whistle. I put my lips together and blew, and kept doing that until suddenly it worked, but I could not tell anybody what made that instant different.)

                        I will say, though, that I often thought "If Sam Harris heard some yoga teacher say that, he'd rip them a new one."

                        It is entirely possible that I'd see more benefit if I continued past the 30 day trial. Clearly it works very well for some people; I'm certain that there's a "there" there. It's definitely better than trying to gaze into my soul through the backs of my eyeballs (which I did in fact hear from a yoga teacher).

                    • hleszek 5 months ago
                      And that paywall is so annoying... As it is further down the page you don't realize it's paywalled and have time to get immersed in the story before you get stopped abruptly.
                      • profstasiak 5 months ago
                        he's book "On Lying" is a short read but definitely life changing for me.

                        Of the reasons I started trying to live my life as honestly as I can

                        • rstuart4133 5 months ago
                          It wasn't paywalled for me. Perhaps it's changed?
                        • klik99 5 months ago
                          I first noticed a change with Elon publicly when he fired PR for Tesla and said in an investor meeting something about twitter being more effective and cheaper than a full PR team. This was around the time/soon after trumps first election, and I believe he studied trumps ability to dominate the news cycle and began emulating him. Ted Cruz started going this route around the same time, and both Cruz and Elon were quite bad at it at first. Cruz eventually gave up trying to be like Trump, but Elon leaned into how he was kind of bad at it and became like a clown. It's "no news is bad news" taken to the extreme - if he does something stupid and people talk about it, that's publicity!

                          I don't know how he's gotten as far as he has, both in access to power and down the rabbit hole, but it looks like he's drank the kool aid now. Maybe it's cynical opportunism, or maybe he surrounded himself with true believers who pushed him into it. But I have a feeling his story arc is far from over

                          • 5 months ago
                          • hagbard_c 5 months ago
                            Harris used to be an interesting person to listen to but the advent of Trump seems to have been too much for him. When someone claims (in a discussion on the suppression of the 'Hunter Biden Laptop' news during the previous election) "At that point Hunter Biden literally could have had the corpses of children in his basement, I would not have cared" [1] that person has signed out of civil society and joined a cult.

                            It is rather surprising that Harris who is known for promoting meditation has gone so deep down the 'anything but Trump' rabbit hole and keeps on digging deeper, it does not speak well for the efficacy of his meditation techniques.

                            [1] https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/media/author-sam-ha...

                            • wilg 5 months ago
                              It's genuinely a completely reasonable position to say you think Hunter Biden's (minor) crimes don't make you think Trump is a better option for president than Joe Biden.
                              • jrsdav 5 months ago
                                Seen another way, perhaps Sam would be much worse in this regard without his meditation practice (but Vipassana can definitely make you more anxious).

                                I'm in agreement though, his podcast pre-2016 was pretty foundational for giving me things to think deeply about. But Trump broke him -- all the hours of airtime on that same soapbox, ad nauseam...

                                That being said, I still think he's pretty respectable. I started listening to his podcast again more recently, and realized my main dislike is his incessant nature to never let a poorly argued point go un-argued, until he wins. He's so tiring and brutal about that. But hyperbolic antics aside, there are very few times I've found myself fundamentally disagreeing with his assessment or argument (just his approach). And there are very few out there who are a match for his eloquence, when he can channel it and avoid stepping on a Trump rake.

                                Ironically, I think he could benefit from practicing more acceptance.

                                • MoneyMeMoneyNow 5 months ago
                                  He addresses this clip in the linked post.
                                • amai 5 months ago
                                  „but he[Elon] appears to have only moods and impulses“

                                  Sounds like bipolar disorder.

                                  • x11antiek 5 months ago
                                    How to unflag the submission? There's no paywall anymore, and it seems like you can't resubmit the link.
                                    • dave333 5 months ago
                                      Seems like Elon decided to use his platform for political power, and is learning politics as he goes at the Trump school. He's achieved star pupil/teacher's pet status helped by his ability to buy his way in. Despite all the propaganda he spouts on X are his long term goals still the same, i.e. combat climate change? Plus he is finding new things to optimize, like government efficiency.
                                      • jandrese 5 months ago
                                        Paywalled unfortunately.
                                        • smitty1e 5 months ago
                                          As with Trump, one is amused with Musk, but also mildly concerned.

                                          How many of these world-historical figures have done the Full Solomon without stating to believe their own press releases?

                                          Conservatives have been moaning (perhaps with some basis) about Soros for these years. Are we swapping one Eminence Grise for another?

                                          Decentralize this mess.

                                          • idlewords 5 months ago
                                            Here's the paywalled second half of the post, for anyone interested:

                                            -----

                                            6. This text appears to have ended our friendship. Elon never responded, and it was not long before he began maligning me on Twitter for a variety of imaginary offenses. For my part, I eventually started complaining about the startling erosion of his integrity on my podcast, without providing any detail about what had transpired between us.

                                            7. At the end of 2022, I abandoned Twitter/X altogether, having recognized the poisonous effect that it had on my life—but also, in large part, because of what I saw it doing to Elon. I’ve been away from the platform for over two years, and yet Elon still attacks me. Occasionally a friend will tell me that I’m trending there, and the reasons for this are never good. As recently as this week, Elon repeated a defamatory charge about my being a “hypocrite” for writing a book in defense of honesty and then encouraging people to lie to keep Donald Trump out of the White House. Not only have I never advocated lying to defeat Trump (despite what that misleading clip from the Triggernometry podcast might suggest to naive viewers), I’ve taken great pains to defend Trump from the most damaging lie ever told about him. Elon knows this, because we communicated about the offending clip when it first appeared on Twitter/X. However, he simply does not care that he is defaming a former friend to hundreds of millions of people—many of whom are mentally unstable. On this occasion, he even tagged the incoming president of the United States.

                                            All of this remains socially and professionally awkward, because Elon and I still have many friends in common. Which suggests the terms of another another wager that I would happily make, if such a thing were possible—and I would accept 1000 to 1 odds in Elon’s favor:

                                            I bet that anyone who knows us both knows that I am telling the truth.

                                            Everyone close to Elon must recognize how unethical he has become, and yet they remain silent. Their complicity is understandable, but it is depressing all the same. These otherwise serious and compassionate people know that when Elon attacks private citizens on Twitter/X—falsely accusing them of crimes or corruption, celebrating their misfortunes—he is often causing tangible harm in their lives. It’s probably still true to say that social media “isn’t real life,” until thousands of lunatics learn your home address.

                                            A final absurdity in my case, is that several of the controversial issues that Elon has hurled himself at of late—and even attacked me over—are ones we agree about. We seem to be in near total alignment on immigration and the problems at the southern border of the U.S. We also share the same concerns about what he calls “the woke mind virus.” And we fully agree about the manifest evil of the so-called “grooming-gangs scandal” in the U.K. The problem with Elon, is that he makes no effort to get his facts straight when discussing any of these topics, and he regularly promotes lies and conspiracy theories manufactured by known bad actors, at scale. (And if grooming were really one of his concerns, it’s strange that he couldn’t find anything wrong with Matt Gaetz.)

                                            Elon and I even agree about the foundational importance of free speech. It’s just that his approach to safeguarding it—amplifying the influence of psychopaths and psychotics, while deplatforming real journalists and his own critics; or savaging the reputations of democratic leaders, while never saying a harsh word about the Chinese Communist Party—is not something I can support. The man claims to have principles, but he appears to have only moods and impulses.

                                            Any dispassionate observer of Elon’s behavior on Twitter/X can see that there is something seriously wrong with his moral compass, if not his perception of reality. There is simply no excuse for a person with his talents, resources, and opportunities to create so much pointless noise. The callousness and narcissism conveyed by his antics should be impossible for his real friends to ignore—but they appear to keep silent, perhaps for fear of losing access to his orbit of influence.

                                            Of course, none of this is to deny that the tens of thousands of brilliant engineers Elon employs are accomplishing extraordinary things. He really is the greatest entrepreneur of our generation. And because of the businesses he’s built, he will likely become the world’s first trillionaire—perhaps very soon. Since the election of Donald Trump in November, Elon’s wealth has grown by around $200 billion. That’s nearly $3 billion a day (and over $100 million an hour). Such astonishing access to resources gives Elon the chance—and many would argue the responsibility—to solve enormous problems in our world.

                                            So why spend time spreading lies on X?

                                            • LunicLynx 5 months ago
                                              Since reading the book of Walter Isaacson. I just wonder if he is slowly becoming his father, or at least to others what he is saying about his own father.
                                              • dzhiurgis 5 months ago
                                                Generational trauma marches on!
                                              • juliusdavies 5 months ago
                                                This essay really reminds me of someone I know who's integrity and impulse control has changed dramatically over the last 2 years coinciding with their descent into crushing poverty (e.g., phones and internet and electricity often cut off, forced to use the local food bank, narrowly avoided eviction notices, etc).

                                                Perhaps Elon is experiencing a degree of stress in his life that most people just cannot fathom - I am certain this other person I know is. I can imagine that extreme affluence and fame might also be as stressful as dire poverty. I believe extreme stress negatively affects integrity and impulse control.

                                                • sharpshadow 5 months ago
                                                  Such a weird mix of player hate, ass kissing and envy.
                                                  • 5 months ago
                                                  • LunicLynx 5 months ago
                                                    Thanks
                                                  • quickthrowman 5 months ago
                                                    [flagged]
                                                    • wilg 5 months ago
                                                      Is that an appropriate use of flagging?
                                                      • x11antiek 5 months ago
                                                        Clearly an inappropriate use of flagging by @quickthrowman.

                                                        Hacker News Guidelines:

                                                        "If a story is spam or off-topic, flag it. Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead. If you flag, please don't also comment that you did."

                                                        That's it.

                                                        • wilg 5 months ago
                                                          It is not mentioned in the guidelines?
                                                      • 05bmckay 5 months ago
                                                        [flagged]
                                                      • ThatGuyRaion 5 months ago
                                                        [flagged]
                                                        • KevinMS 5 months ago
                                                          > SpaceX was the prioritized during the last 4 years of Joe Biden.

                                                          Why would anybody want to prioritize a successful company with cost effective products over a bloated government agency?

                                                          • mschuster91 5 months ago
                                                            I think it is Covid and the handling of it set many people in the libertarian sphere off on a very troubling tangent - after all what had to be done to prevent it from repeating the 1918 flu ran completely antithetical to most core beliefs of libertarianism. That's why the essay starts off right with Covid IMHO. Add on top of that his daughter coming out as trans, that's when he went so far off the rails that it was impossible to prevent the derailment - unfortunately the rest of the article is paywalled without a bypass I don't have but it would not surprise me at all if that episode also gets mentioned.

                                                            And it's not just the libertarians / the (far) right, by the way - they just get more public attention. I have seen cases of similar escalations into conspiracy theories also among the far-left during Covid - from both anarchists as well as, curiously, tankies. Anarchists no surprise, for similar reasons as the libertarians, but the amount of tankies who went off the rocker is what I don't get given that they are among the strongest proponents of an authoritarian state doing whatever it deems to be best for the people.

                                                            • ThatGuyRaion 5 months ago
                                                              I'm not going to comment on the covid handling situation. That goes beyond partisan politics and I believe that people's rights were violated on both sides by both groups of people.

                                                              The reason that people have been exposed to dangerous thinking is because the authorities that are supposed to protect us didn't do a good job with their messaging. The constant back and forth schizophrenic nature of many broadcasts and the condescension they carried pushed people into that.

                                                              It's a good reason why trying to lock down people was not a great idea in the first place. The bigger deal that they made out of things the more they polarized people.

                                                              • mschuster91 5 months ago
                                                                > The constant back and forth schizophrenic nature of many broadcasts and the condescension they carried pushed people into that.

                                                                Well... that's because "science" or "being nerds" has been demonized by society for a very long time. The coolest guys in school were never the "nerds" (or those who looked like a "nerd"), and that attitude is strewn across culture and media ('member the Simpsons episode with the brain pencil?), so it feeds back into schools again.

                                                                When wide parts of society as a result have zero idea about how science works - constantly learning and reevaluating based on new data - of course the messaging will look "back and forth". When one looks even at the most controversial opinions they were, with the knowledge available back then, correct.

                                                                The one and only exception was "selfmade cloth masks are effective", and that ruined a lot of trust. Of course the politicians knew it wasn't true, but on the other hand they weren't completely wrong either as even a cloth mask is much better than no mask, and they had to deal with scalpers and even looters while hospitals didn't have PPE left.

                                                              • ttoinou 5 months ago
                                                                To me its the opposite, the so called libertarians who got scared of the flu went fully anti liberty and their true faces were revealed.
                                                                • blackeyeblitzar 5 months ago
                                                                  Well Sam is ignoring the factual basics of COVID. It had a very low IFR, comparable to seasonal flus. And yet it was treated more like Ebola in terms of the government response. It would have been fine to let young and healthy people go about their lives, visit businesses, go to schools, and all that. Instead, we subjected everyone to authoritarian measures that were not grounded in reality, and even the slightest objection was given all kinds of labels - misinformation, conspiracy theory, anti science, etc.

                                                                  And let’s not forget the glaring saga of the lab leak theory, which was attacked and suppressed in news media and social media. It showed the extent of societal control that was being practiced under the guise of COVID. That violation of free speech principles is the troubling tangent, not the people who were asking for more transparency and accountability for China. In the end the CCP got away with a WHO visit only a year late, and with the only US rep having a conflict of interest since he was involved in the coronavirus work at Wuhan Institute of Virology (Peter Daszak of EcoHealth).

                                                                  • mschuster91 5 months ago
                                                                    > And yet it was treated more like Ebola in terms of the government response.

                                                                    Uh... when have you ever seen refrigerator trucks being used as morgues because there were too many people dying [1]? I have never seen that ever before outside of areas struck by devastating floods, earthquakes or similar natural disasters.

                                                                    > That violation of free speech principles is the troubling tangent, not the people who were asking for more transparency and accountability for China.

                                                                    Blame that on the 45th - for purportedly being "anti China", he didn't do shit against China when it came to Covid other than mocking it as "the China virus" to stoke xenophobia.

                                                                    Besides, it's still a fringe theory. Warnings over human settlements encroaching on bat caves and setting off epidemics from bats (who are a perfect breeding ground) have been sound years before Covid [2]. It is completely and utterly unsurprising that it eventually happened. Hell, the first coronavirus of 2005 was already linked to bats [3].

                                                                    [1] https://edition.cnn.com/2021/05/07/us/new-york-coronavirus-v...

                                                                    [2] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7152049/

                                                                    [3] https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/j...

                                                                    • dave333 5 months ago
                                                                      Incorrect - the fatality rate of covid pre vaccines was 1 to 3% worldwide, and about 15% in older more vulnerable people. Flu fatality rates are around 0.1%.
                                                                • ttoinou 5 months ago

                                                                     If I hadn’t known that I was communicating with Elon Musk, I would have thought I was debating someone who lacked any understanding of basic scientific and mathematical concepts, like exponential curves.
                                                                  
                                                                  
                                                                  Its always the same thing. Yes we do understand exponential curves but no you’re still wrong even if you think you’re smarter than us by repeating what others told you about covid
                                                                  • jandrese 5 months ago
                                                                    Elon regularly reposts (often with a one or two word response like "true") some of the most batshit stuff you can find on the internet. He's like that uncle that fell down the Inforwars/Drudge Report rabbit hole and now you can't invite him for Thanksgiving. He will believe any lie as long as it aligns with his worldview, which get shifted slightly with every lie he sees.

                                                                    He absolutely needs at least a month or two Internet detox. Go offline entirely, travel the world, talk with real people, go cold turkey on any performance enhancing drugs, pop the information bubble he has surrounded himself with. He has capable CEOs at all of his companies, he clearly isn't spending that much time at any one of them given how many hours a day he spends on Twitter/X.

                                                                    I'm not saying he will come back a changed man like Ebenezer Scrooge, but I think it would do wonders for his mental health. Sometimes you don't even realize how deep you are until you look up.

                                                                    • wilg 5 months ago
                                                                      I can't tell if you're critiquing Harris or Musk here.
                                                                      • ttoinou 5 months ago
                                                                        Only one side of the battle pretended they knew “science” better than supposedly stupid people on the other side
                                                                        • wilg 5 months ago
                                                                          Still ambiguous
                                                                    • blackeyeblitzar 5 months ago
                                                                      Sam Harris used to be respectable but he really started losing his balance and rationality after the 2016 election. I hate to use this term, but he really does have TDS and probably now, EDS. I was upset over Hillary’s defeat too, but as Sam became more and more one-sided, and spoke about voters in a sort of vicious elitist tone, listening to him became more and more difficult and I stopped subscribing. For those who are reading past the paywall, all I’ll say is - try to find other sources to know the other side of any situation or event he’s talking about.
                                                                      • wilg 5 months ago
                                                                        Not liking highly controversial public figures is not "derangement".
                                                                        • rat87 5 months ago
                                                                          TDS - the derangement that Trump is an ordinary or ordinarordinarily bad president and not a disaster of epic proportion
                                                                          • hagbard_c 5 months ago
                                                                            [flagged]
                                                                            • fireflash38 5 months ago
                                                                              I think people just bring up TDS as a way to completely disregard anything that someone says. Or maybe that's just me projecting, because anytime I see a person claim that someone has TDS I immediately discount anything that they say as intelligent or worthy of engagement. They've already shown that they aren't willing to engage in good faith.
                                                                              • GuinansEyebrows 5 months ago
                                                                                Hey I just want to let you know that I think this is a really odd thing to be serious about.
                                                                                • nickthegreek 5 months ago
                                                                                  Trump did not get the majority of the vote, he received a plurality.

                                                                                  https://www.npr.org/2024/12/03/nx-s1-5213810/2024-presidenti...

                                                                                  • zingababba 5 months ago
                                                                                    Yeah he's a prime example of intellectual TDS. Funny that he just kind of transitioned from complaining about christianity to complaining about Trump. It's like it's some feature of his personality.

                                                                                    He sounds so tired all the time. I just opened up his most recent podcast, less than two minutes in Trump comes up.