Popular Linux orgs Freedesktop and Alpine Linux are scrambling for new webhost

256 points by ossusermivami 4 months ago | 118 comments
  • Shakahs 4 months ago
    Per the ongoing Freedesktop discussion, AWS offered to host but Freedesktop is leaning towards self-hosting on Hetzner so they can control their own destiny and sponsors can contribute cash towards the bill instead of donating hardware.

    > https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/freedesktop/freedesktop/-/iss...

    • rglullis 4 months ago
      I saw their original announcement and they said that their infra (3 AMD EPYC from generations ago, 3 Intel servers from 2 generations ago, 2 80-core ARM servers) would cost $24k/month at Equinix prices. I checked Hetzner's equivalent offerings, it would be ~$1.5k/month for newer AMD servers. It would probably be even less if they went with older servers listed at their auction. And it probably would be even less if they just moved their CI runners to virtual servers on Hetzner's cloud.

      Seriously, Hetzner provides so much move value per dollar, sometimes I fear that one day they will find out and just jack up the prices to match the rest.

      • hirako2000 4 months ago
        VPS business is very different than the "cloud" space.

        Yes yes there are cloud features now offered by VPS providers, but they are add ons to chase demand, they aren't positioning their offering to appeal to users wanting a comprehensive suite of services on the platform. Managed databases, SMTP as a service, deployment as a service etc etc etc. For that reasons market rates are different.

        For Hetzner to bump their prices significantly they would need to build a cloud platform a la AWS/GCP/Azure. Won't happen by Xmas even if went all in. They are good at what they do and make money so they stick to that.

        • rglullis 4 months ago
          Of course they are not in the hyperscaler space, but they are far from being "just" a VPS provider.

          Their cloud always had on-demand, per-hour billing of servers and block storage volumes, all very easy to manage and provision via their API. Recently they got into object storage space. They even provide a switch to connect their cloud servers with a dedicated one, so you can have, e.g, a beefy GPU server running a LLM model and your web service auto running on the cheap.

          I believe that the only thing that really holds Hetzner at their price levels is that the price-sensitive people can always threaten to move to OVH.

          • Davidmenk3 4 months ago
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          • 4 months ago
            • iruoy 4 months ago
              They did the calculations for Hetzner themselves and came to $4258.33/mo.
              • rglullis 4 months ago
                They must be adding a ton of storage and/or memory to those servers, then.
              • justinclift 4 months ago
                Hetzner does co-location as well, which would probably be even cheaper?
              • mysteria 4 months ago
                Hetzner also has the interesting choice of consumer-grade machines which probably work fine in cases where you are constrained by CPU power rather than memory capacity/bandwidth. You'll also lose a bit of redundancy and reliability but that might not be as big of a deal since the machines are managed by them and you can probably get things replaced quickly. For example depending on the workload the CCX43s might be replaceable by the AX52.

                Meanwhile for CI runners you probably could split the big bare metal servers down into smaller individual machines and run less jobs of them. Depending on the CI load profile it might also make even more sense to scale out to the cloud on high demand as opposed to having a bunch of mostly idle machines.

                • Xunjin 4 months ago
                  Great point, Hetzner has a great price, or even discuss with them a sponsorship too?
                  • weinzierl 4 months ago
                    Hetzner has a great price but it plays not in the same league as AWS. It's cheap and good enough for some applications but I wouldn't call Hetzner a professional service.
                    • throw3748859 4 months ago
                      Hetzner is hosted in Germany. AWS is controlled by US company.

                      US sanction laws are legal nightmare, quicksand that constantly changes. Major global infrastructure projects like Freedesktop should avoid US!

                      • preisschild 4 months ago
                        Hetzner Cloud is definitely professional enough to place most production systems on it.

                        Sure, servers might die at times, but this also happens at AWS and can be avoided by using multiple servers in a HA configuration.

                        • Xunjin 4 months ago
                          Sorry, but could you point out what is not professional? Not everyone needs a UI wrapper that offers tons of OSS services with high prices.
                    • zx2c4 4 months ago
                      The WireGuard project is also in the same situation, due to Equinix Metal shutting down. If anybody would like to host us, please reach out to team at wireguard dot com. Thanks!
                      • bestham 4 months ago
                        I guess Tailscale or Mullvad should consider hosting you.
                        • briffle 4 months ago
                          have you looked into Oregon State University's Open Source Lab? https://osuosl.org/communities/

                          They host quite a few open source projects there. And seem to be one of the few that also hosts for ARM and POWERPC projects.

                          • zx2c4 4 months ago
                            Saw that. Looks appealing, but I'm not particularly keen on, "We only require that you keep one sudo-enabled account on the system for us to use as needed for troubleshooting." [1] Do I want to give root access to the project's master git server to somebody I've never met, who is probably a good & nice person, but not really directly associated with the project? In general, I'm wary of places with relaxed enough informal policies that somebody could just walk over to a machine and fiddle with it. It's not that I actually intend to do some kind of top secret computing on Internet-facing machines like those, but I also don't want to have to be _as_ concerned about those edge cases when I'm deciding which things to run or host on it.

                            [1] https://osuosl.org/services/hosting/details/

                            • dude187 4 months ago
                              Seems like setting the stage ripe for a supply chain attack if something like alpine were to be hosted under those conditions
                          • rudasn 4 months ago
                            Hey! Just wanted to say thank you for wireguard :)

                            Hope you find a host soon!

                            • drio 4 months ago
                              Hi Jason,

                              Thank you for wireguard - it's been a hugely impactful piece of software.

                              Do you think it would be helpful to outline what hardware resources you would need to successfully migrate the project and all the CI/CD computations to a new home? This would help people determine if they can help with hosting.

                              • systems_glitch 4 months ago
                                Email sent, we can probably host you.
                                • likeabatterycar 4 months ago
                                  What prevents Wireguard from moving to GitHub or why is bare metal hosting needed?

                                  The code is small and integrated into the kernel at this point.

                                  Aren't your needs primarily for distributing Windows/Mac packages at this point?

                                  • zx2c4 4 months ago
                                    No, it's considerably more involved than that. For example, there's extensive CI: https://www.wireguard.com/build-status/ This thing builds a fresh kernel and boots it for every commit for a bunch of systems. And there's also a lot of long running fuzzing and SAT solving and all sorts of other heavy computation happening during different aspects of development. Development is a bit more than just pushing some code up to Github and hoping for the best.
                                    • likeabatterycar 4 months ago
                                      Thanks for the explanation, I had been under the impression that Wireguard was "done" at this point.
                                • voxadam 4 months ago
                                  Oregon State University's Open Source Lab (https://osuosl.org/) offers managed and unmanaged hosting to open source projects. They even have IBM Z and POWER10 hosting if you're into that sort of thing.
                                  • stonogo 4 months ago
                                    This has been brought up with freedesktop and they handwaved it away. They claim they want to DIY with donation money but they don't have a donation mechanism and I suspect they don't know how much work just handling money is.
                                    • jorams 4 months ago
                                      > This has been brought up with freedesktop and they handwaved it away. They claim they want to DIY with donation money

                                      You are making all of this sound way more definitive than the ticket. The donation money approach is the personal opinion of the sysadmin. The OSUOSL is brought up, some explanations are added that make it more attractive and remove some doubts, and beyond that it's waiting for the board to decide what's next.

                                      • voxadam 4 months ago
                                        They offer colocation as well.

                                        https://osuosl.org/services/hosting/details/

                                    • johnklos 4 months ago
                                      Is colocation knowledge lost now? Do people no longer know how to configure a server or three, bring them to colo and run them? I don't understand how this is a story worthy of an Ars Technica article. Where's the issue?

                                      If the issue is cost, slightly older Epyc hardware is quite affordable, and colo deals can be found for extremely reasonable costs. If it's expertise, then all they have to do is ask.

                                      • caspper69 4 months ago
                                        I'm sure this isn't relevant everywhere, but all my old colo hotspots within driving distance have started charging exorbitant $$ for egress, just like the cloud.

                                        Still more economical than cloud, but it seems like this has become far too common.

                                        • 4 months ago
                                          • systems_glitch 4 months ago
                                            Judging from former jobs, yeah, kinda lost :/ We still colo, it's way more cost effective than PaaS or VMs or someone else's bare metal.
                                            • mauricio 4 months ago
                                              Did you read the article? There are large storage and bandwidth requirements.
                                              • johnklos 4 months ago
                                                Yes, I did, of course.

                                                Storage is MUCH cheaper when you colo, and bandwidth requirements are a large part of why you colocate instead of just running servers out of an office building that has at least two upstream connections.

                                                I'm really curious what you think they're using now. Certainly you read the article... It says they're using bare metal servers. That's basically colo where the provider owns, but doesn't control, the hardware.

                                                • timewizard 4 months ago
                                                  > Storage is MUCH cheaper

                                                  Probably because it's not redundant or automatically backed up at any interval. The worst days of my life have been during hardware failures at colos.

                                                  • 4 months ago
                                              • jmclnx 4 months ago
                                                RHEL (IBM) is doing well, why can't they provide free hosting and at the same time show off their cloud products ?

                                                RHEL benefits from freedesktop and X, and as a show of good faith they could support Alpine too.

                                                But as we all know, RHEL/IBM only wants to take free labor and not really give back these days :(

                                                • freedomben 4 months ago
                                                  > But as we all know, RHEL/IBM only wants to take free labor and not really give back these days :(

                                                  Ludicrous. Red Hat and IBM are far from perfect, but they are absolute heroes for open source. Listing all the projects that Red Hat pays to develop would be very difficult because it's so long. They've even acquired proprietary companies and open sourced their products (while the product was still selling and highly useful!), something virtually nobody does.

                                                  • bityard 4 months ago
                                                    Sure, they likely could. But then the complaint would be, "Arrg, I can't believe Freedesktop.org and Alpine are now effectively owned by Red Hat/IBM now, arrg!"

                                                    Also, Red Hat typically only "sponsors" open source projects that they have some business dependency on. Freedesktop.org might be a good candidate, but Alpine could be harder to justify. I don't know of any RH product that uses Alpine directly. (Most enterprises only have exposure to Alpine through container images.)

                                                    • Sammi 4 months ago
                                                      Redhat, Canonical, IBM, Oracle, Google, hell even Microsoft... There are a bunch of big actors in the Linux space that could and probably should be financing this. Also there's the Linux Foundation that is made for financing Linux projects.
                                                      • Sphax 4 months ago
                                                        Aren't they (Red Hat) one of the biggest contributor to Wayland ?
                                                        • martinsnow 4 months ago
                                                          Red hat contribute a lot but they don't pay well. I believe their finances are tight.
                                                          • CursedSilicon 4 months ago
                                                            Red Hat's gambit has always been to hire engineers to do good work on Linux broadly, in many areas. As opposed to just dropping crates full of money at random on projects

                                                            Of course they still get tarred and feathered with the "Red Hat wants to control Linux!" brush because they...contribute the bulk of development to projects like GNOME

                                                      • mrbluecoat 4 months ago
                                                        Awesome projects and I hope they find a new home soon! For those wanting to donate:

                                                        Alpine Linux: https://opencollective.com/alpinelinux

                                                        Freedesktop [edit]: ..no crowdsource option at the moment

                                                        • pabs3 4 months ago
                                                          The second one is only for fprint, a tool for supporting fingerprint scanners (for eg laptop ones) on Linux.
                                                        • systems_glitch 4 months ago
                                                          Oh man that sucks! I wonder if we could pull Alpine into our colo, we recently upgraded to a full rack from 2U (it was cheaper than a quarter rack!) and have a ton of space. Plus all of our libvirt/KVM HVMs run Alpine.
                                                          • plagiarist 4 months ago
                                                            It's surprising to me that Alpine isn't set for life from corporate donations. They're my first choice for laying down the foundation in a container.
                                                            • klardotsh 4 months ago
                                                              Aside from some major examples, like most of the big tech companies funding the Linux kernel and maybe the Rust and/or Python Foundations in decent numbers, for the most part, corporations don't pay for open-source. That's why they love it so much: it costs ~$0, but generates immense business value for them (in that they don't have to write, debug, or maintain any of that, often essential, code or infra).

                                                              I can think of maybe three exceptions my entire career, and none of them were especially huge contributions.

                                                              • systems_glitch 4 months ago
                                                                Indeed, we donate to several open source projects on which we depend, but we're also a small two-person operation. No medium/large company I've worked for ever donated monetarily to open source projects, though one did encourage us to fix bugs and submit patches/pull request, which is at least something!

                                                                Slackware's the same way, most donations come from individuals and very small companies.

                                                              • rollcat 4 months ago
                                                                This is why: https://m.xkcd.com/2347/

                                                                Now go ask your employer to donate.

                                                            • dehrmann 4 months ago
                                                              Broader question, but whatever happened to every university with a CS department hosting mirrors of popular distros? I always assumed CDNs replaced them, but seeing this, maybe they didn't.
                                                              • Arnavion 4 months ago
                                                                Maybe not every university, but plenty of distro mirrors are still hosted by universities, both in the US and internationally. Another example is Oregon State University mentioned elsewhere in this thread that still provides hosting + CI services; eg postmarketOS recently moved from gitlab.com to a self-hosted GitLab on OSU-provided and -hosted hardware.
                                                                • fph 4 months ago
                                                                  FWIW in Italy we still have [GARR Mirror](https://mirror.garr.it/index_en.html). It includes Alpine Linux.
                                                                  • stonogo 4 months ago
                                                                    The MBAs took over. Public service doesn't "generate renevue."
                                                                    • DaSHacka 4 months ago
                                                                      Most mirrors are run by clubs at universities, typically LUGs or similar.

                                                                      I'm not sure how many mirrors are run by the university directly, though AFAIK MIT and RIT host theirs directly.

                                                                    • jtrn 4 months ago
                                                                      I haven't looked into it, so there might be a good reason, but why isn't peer-to-peer technology utilized more and more for stuff like this? I had hoped that BitTorrent would have made these things a solved problem. I looked into Storj earlier, but it seemed too controlled/unpredictable/centralized. Anybody have some good insights into this?
                                                                      • gosub100 4 months ago
                                                                        I think it's the same reason PGP never caught on. The learning curve is just too steep.

                                                                        There are 3 major concepts: understanding how to run the comnand, understanding the idea of public key crypto, and actually using it (i.e. NOT imaging the ISO unless the signature passes).

                                                                        What it needs is something like a torrent client that 1) doesn't let you download unless you supply the expected SHA first, and perhaps 2) that it verifies that the hash came from the signed webpage where you got the torrent link. Too many people (myself included) think it's not going to happen to them (download a backdoored program/OS).

                                                                        After 20 years in the industry I'm just now learning how certificates work and how to work with them.

                                                                        • rollcat 4 months ago
                                                                          > I think it's the same reason PGP never caught on. The learning curve is just too steep.

                                                                          This is what I always emphasise: usability first. If a solution is secure on paper, but confusing to use, then it's not secure - the user can get confused and do the wrong thing. Defaults matter.

                                                                          > What it needs is something like a torrent client that 1) doesn't let you download unless you supply the expected SHA first, and perhaps 2) that it verifies that the hash came from the signed webpage where you got the torrent link.

                                                                          This is already a solved problem. Just provide a magnet link. You already have to trust the website to provide the checksum, so why not trust the link?

                                                                          As for packages, Debian experimented with a BitTorrent transport for apt a long while ago, but I suppose it didn't catch on. Perhaps this was before BitTorrent had HTTP fallback? Either way, this would be an interesting avenue for research.

                                                                          • 565j56j 4 months ago
                                                                            The learning curve myth needs to die. It can be solved with good UX but there is no real profit in that so you will never see any company dedicate marketing dollars towards it. So truly decentralized and distributed technologies die because no one wants to spend money to market them for free.
                                                                        • reincoder 4 months ago
                                                                          When it comes to mirror sponsorships, we (IPinfo) offer IP location data sponsorship. We spoke with Alma Linux and they used our IP location data to route traffic for their mirror system: https://almalinux.org/blog/2024-08-07-mirrors-1-to-400/

                                                                          At the moment, we operate 900 servers. We evaluated the idea of hosting mirrors on some of our servers, but our servers are not super powerful, and we have to pay for bandwidth. We use these servers in our production pipeline. Maintenance alone is a massive task, and hosting distro mirrors could be incredibly challenging. We are not at that scale yet.

                                                                          We could provide IP location data sponsorship to popular distro mirror systems, which would make traffic routing and load distributions more effective.

                                                                          • mobilio 4 months ago
                                                                            It looks as a job for Cloudflare: https://cloudflaremirrors.com/

                                                                            But i don't know who is responsible for that.

                                                                            • rollcat 4 months ago
                                                                              While I have mixed feelings about Cloudflare, I don't see why you have been downvoted. This is on topic for the discussion, already implemented for a couple distros, etc.

                                                                              The question of "who is responsible": anyone is free to run their own mirror, after all this software is freely redistributable.

                                                                              As for "why not", if I were to lead a project like Alpine, I would insist that the org stays in control of its own infrastructure. Mirrors are also only one chunk of the problem; you also need builder machines.

                                                                              • bananapub 4 months ago
                                                                                > I don't see why you have been downvoted.

                                                                                presumably because it's a silly idea, given Cloudflare isn't a colo or dedicated server company and they won't let you just rack machines in their DCs for the same reason Google won't.

                                                                              • 4 months ago
                                                                              • electricant 4 months ago
                                                                                Not only alpine linux but also X.Org and freedesktop.org
                                                                                • 1970-01-01 4 months ago
                                                                                  >Both services have largely depended on free server resources ...

                                                                                  Running on 'large donations' is not a viable strategy for any long-term goal. Perhaps its time for Linux to consider running a tiny datacenter of its very own to both dog-feed itself and give itself extra momentum or inertia from donation stall-out?

                                                                                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eating_your_own_dog_food

                                                                                  • kazen44 4 months ago
                                                                                    so, the linux foundation (or torvalds himself, whatever) should run a entire datacenter right now?

                                                                                    You know running an anctual datacenter with all its cooling ,storage, networking and power requirements is a full time job for several people right? Why not put bare metal in someplace which already does that for far cheaper and better?

                                                                                    • 1970-01-01 4 months ago
                                                                                      Saying it's far cheaper without actual numbers is not saying anything. 10 years in a DC is 14% cheaper than going in with a provider. This donation money can simply be better spent if long term goals are considered.
                                                                                  • loganmarchione 4 months ago
                                                                                    So far, the Equinix Metal shutdown affects Freedesktop, Alpine, WireGuard, and Flathub. Why can't these organizations use VMs? Is there something special about bare-metal services, or has Equinix not offered their VM service to these organizations?
                                                                                    • johnklos 4 months ago
                                                                                      VMs introduce security issues that bare metal don't have. Those security issues are mostly academic for most people and many projects, but not for software where a supply chain compromise could severely impact all users of that software.

                                                                                      Imagine if Wireguard were backdoored because someone working for the ISP that runs the VMs compromised their VMs through the hypervisor. How would a project audit an ISP? How could anything be trusted? Bottom line: it can't. ISPs don't give that kind of information to customers unless you're special (government, spend crazy money).

                                                                                      While it's still possible to compromise a machine through physical access, it's MUCH more difficult. How do you bring it in to single user mode to introduce a privileged user without people noticing that it's down, even momentarily, or that the uptime is now zero? Compromise like this is possible, but worlds more difficult to pull off than compromise through hypervisor.

                                                                                      • thatSteveFan 4 months ago
                                                                                        Possible I'm just not remembering the history right, but I think this is from when "Equinix metal" was packet.com. I think this is a handshake deal they had from before they were bought, and it's going away as packet.com becomes more integrated into Equinix.
                                                                                        • acatton 4 months ago
                                                                                          How are VMs solving this issue? You cannot just snapshot them and migrate them to another provider. You'll get different local-IPv4 and different IPv6, etc.
                                                                                          • indigodaddy 4 months ago
                                                                                            So what, they didn't BYOIPs with equinix did they? It's trivial to update IPs in a migrated VM image
                                                                                        • 0xbadcafebee 4 months ago
                                                                                          Old-school open source projects got hosting from hundreds of mirrors, mostly universities and ISPs, and some businesses. If you have lots of mirrors you don't need as much traffic per host.
                                                                                          • HackerThemAll 4 months ago
                                                                                            All the big cloud behemoths benefit A LOT from Alpine. And helping Alpine would be pennies for them.
                                                                                            • supriyo-biswas 4 months ago
                                                                                              Isn’t fly.io all hosted on Equinix Metal too? Or are they using their collocation services?
                                                                                              • FuriouslyAdrift 4 months ago
                                                                                                Why is this stuff not primarily hosted via bittorrent, now?

                                                                                                Even Microsoft updates can use end user device distributed hosting.

                                                                                                • mrweasel 4 months ago
                                                                                                  How do you host bug trackers, git repos, CI runners or mailinglists on Bittorrent?

                                                                                                  Admittedly I am rather surprised by the storage requirements from Freedesktop.

                                                                                                  • FuriouslyAdrift 4 months ago
                                                                                                    You could host all of that on a single small VM or physical server.
                                                                                                    • justinclift 4 months ago
                                                                                                      Not their GitLab setup. GitLab is a resource hog, and from what I understand their setup is fairly well used.
                                                                                                • libertarian1 4 months ago
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