A filmmaker and a crooked lawyer shattered Denmark's self-image
196 points by RapperWhoMadeIt 3 months ago | 178 comments- frantathefranta 3 months agoI'm fully aware that Sweden and Denmark are different countries (I lived in Denmark for 3 years), but this reminded me of the reel of Swedes playing every time I visit IKEA, where they talk about how corruption is absolutely unthinkable in Swedish society.
And there's also this tidbit from the article:
> Other Scandinavian nations also reeled upon watching The Black Swan. After the series premiered in Sweden, a criminologist at Lund University warned: “There’s a lot of evidence that it’s probably even worse here.”
- guappa 3 months agoYeah swedish people think like that. Living in sweden and having some experience I can tell you that there's no corruption because the police don't care to investigate it, even with proof they won't bring people to justice. Most that happens to corrupt people is that they quit job and go to work somewhere else.
- whizzter 3 months agoThere is probably plenty of it, many escape but they do prosecute it when found (especially when it involves taxes). Håkan Nesser (book author) and Daniel Kindberg (Soccer club president) are probably the most famous recent cases, there's also been a bunch of cases related to social security fraud.
Most of it probably isn't glamorous enough to warrant full page articles but you do note them popping up in news at a steady rate.
- wubrr 3 months agoSame in Canada for the most part.
- whizzter 3 months ago
- belter 3 months ago"Sweden's sudden awakening to corruption - From small arrangements between friends to large-scale bribery and embezzlement, Swedes are discovering the extent of a phenomenon they had underestimated" - https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/05/08/s...
- guappa 3 months agoI think they really aren't, not at large. At the core they need to feel superior, and that includes believing that they are genetically honest, unlike those people with darker skin and brown eyes.
- guappa 3 months ago
- cess11 3 months agoSince the late eighties Sweden has privatised, as the euphemism goes, heavily. In particular schools and medical and elder care have become cesspools of corruption and mob activity. It's gotten worse in construction as well.
Today some active politicians simultaneously perform as senior advisers and the like for so called public affairs, i.e. lobbying, firms. That is, in the open. The leader of one of the largest parties in parliament and kind of part of the current government had a mob leader as guest at his wedding a while back.
There's an agreement among the largest parties to blame the fallout on immigrant minorities. They still disagree about whether to also put blame on sexual and gender minorities, as well as indigenous minorities. I expect them to start agreeing more during the next election.
- scottyah 3 months agoInteresting. It really seems like wherever the power goes, the corruption follows. The good news with privatization is that it doesn't attract the corrupt looters to government and you can trust them as a culture to be a watchdog for corruption.
When the government as a body is in control of everything, all the corrupt looters go there, but you can't have the private industry keep them in check unless you count on the pipeline of years in industry gaining financial freedom -> public service as a regulator.
- cess11 3 months agoPrivatisation is a reactionary strategy that aims to reduce or remove democratic influence over important social institutions like education and healthcare.
The entire point of social constructs like shareholder corporations is to make it hard or impossible to hold physical persons accountable for their actions and risk taking. In some areas of society this might be attractive and reasonable, in many others that involve e.g. vulnerable persons or justice it is not.
I have a chance to influence who sits in the regional political councils, but I can't influence the board in the corporation that runs the local healthcare centers. Capitalist competition optimises for mediocrity, for excellence you need democratic institutions and accountable politicians.
- cess11 3 months ago
- scottyah 3 months ago
- munificent 3 months agoHere's an interesting question: If most people in a society believe corruption is at level X when it's actually at X+N, is it better to expose the reality or not?
Being a member of a society that you believe has low corruption disincentivizes you from being corrupt yourself because people generally want to follow the surrounding norms. So it's probably good for people to believe that corruption is better than it is.
But exposing corruption is also necessary to root it out and actually punish the people involved.
How does one make the trade-off for when disclosure is net helpful for reducing overall corruption? Does it depend on X and N?
- benregenspan 3 months agoIt's funny that reel is at IKEA, given IKEA's sketchily engineered tax structure, and that it's also the same company that paid off Romanian secret police under Ceaușescu.
- Gud 3 months agoWhat's sketchy about their tax structure? Just curious what you think. I think they are pretty open about it?
The original purpose of IKEA was to foster self reliance, essentially making everyone a bit handier. IKEA brings decent quality furniture to people who otherwise wouldn't afford it. I think it's a noble goal, hence why I ask.
As I understand it, and I could be wrong, IKEA is owned by a non-profit organization called INGKA, set up in such a way to generate revenue not to a few rich people but:
"INGKA Foundation’s purpose is to further, without pursuing any profits, a better everyday life for the many people in need. We achieve this purpose by funding the IKEA Foundation, which is committed to helping children and families living in poverty afford a better everyday life while protecting the planet."
https://www.ingkafoundation.org/our-charitable-purpose/
https://www.inter.ikea.com/en/this-is-inter-ikea-group/about...
https://www.inter.ikea.com/en/-/media/InterIKEA/IGI/Financia...
Regarding them paying of Romanian secret police, I'm very interested to hear about it. I know they used east german prisoners for a time as cheap labor.
- decimalenough 3 months agoThe Economist did a famous analysis of IKEA's tax structure:
https://www.economist.com/business/2006/05/11/flat-pack-acco...
TL;DR: The only beneficiaries of INGKA's charity are the owner and his family.
- decimalenough 3 months ago
- Gud 3 months ago
- GardenLetter27 3 months agoAnd yet every other Swede in Stockholm knows someone renting out their first-hand rental apartment illegally.
Or taking one class a year as a "student" to qualify for student housing with rent control, etc.
- guappa 3 months ago
- Oarch 3 months agoFor all its excellent marketing, of course Denmark has issues much like any other country.
It's still a great country, just take the marketing with a hint of salt - a self certain smugness / hubris can easily make you blind to real problems.
- nolito 3 months agoIt's mostly marketing. Danes, and other Scandinavians, love the idea that they are more honest then others. It's not correct in Denmark. I find Denmark to be a quite corrupt country
Tax-evasion in small scale called "sort arbejde" is quite common.
Former primeminister and current foreign miniater Lars Løkke Rasmussen is a interessant figure. He's famous for not even being able to pay for his own underware.
- nolito 3 months ago
- robinhoodexe 3 months agoThe director also made Kim Jong Il’s Comedy Club[1], an absolutely insane documentary on North Korea.
- yvely 3 months agoAnd also by Mads Brügger and about North Korea. Civilian self-chosen undercover operation. Fascinating watch. https://m.imdb.com/title/tt13243898/
- yvely 3 months ago
- Isamu 3 months ago>All of Scandinavia, he believes, has persuaded itself that crime exists only in violent, poor abscesses on the edges of their societies. “The Danes totally subscribe to this idea that Denmark has no corruption, and to the idea of Denmark as the end of the road,” Brügger said, referring to the political scientist Francis Fukuyama’s notion that “getting to Denmark” is the goal of every modern democracy.
First, this is an assertion about “All of Scandinavia”, and there is some contradiction about crime exists but is small, and Denmark has “no corruption”. But this is basic over-generalization, between low and none, and a exposé that provides anecdotes but doesn’t challenge statistics.
Still people will claim (rhetorically) “none” when the real answer is not zero. And is that really incorrect? To be correct is to quantify and provide your reasoning. That’s something that public discourse is yet to embrace.
- itissid 3 months agoIts just people. People are the same everywhere, and are fundamentally unpredictable systems. How large groups behave does depends to a certain extent on context: by compared to others and your socio-economic situation. How they publicly expressed their values are entirely different from their behavior. This is to the dread of incumbent governments and pollsters.
If you starve a wealthy man for 2 weeks he will be ready to cannibalize. If you create a metric upon which you place a lot of economic-value, soooner or later it will get gamed and corrupted. If you remove checks and balances humans being unpredictable will turn on each other.
One can choose to ignore this fact, but at the cost of endless grief to oneself and those around.
- bufferoverflow 3 months ago> People are the same everywhere
That is absolutely not true. People aren't the same even in adjacent neighborhoods sometimes. Some create great environments, some create hells on earth.
Source: I lived in 3 different countries + an isolated island.
But you don't even need my biased opinion on the matter. We have cultures that throw gay people off the roofs, and cultures that celebrate them.
- mr_toad 3 months ago> We have cultures that throw gay people off the roofs, and cultures that celebrate them.
And you could take single individuals from either culture and drop them in the other culture, and most of them would happily act and think just like the new culture, and swear blind that they’d always thought that way.
It would be an interesting experiment to see how many individuals you could replace one-by-one before the culture changed. Or perhaps, like a Ship of Theseus, you could replace all the people, but have the culture endure.
- ANewFormation 3 months agoAnd so if you went to Saudi Arabia you'd pretend to be down with executing people for apostasy?
Obviously it's an extreme example but many of the norms of a Western mindset would be no less offensive to billions of people in this world.
What bias of moderation exists is that you probably wouldn't migrate to Saudi Arabia unless you were already mostly ok with their values.
And if e.g. economic opportunity drove you there you'd probably keep your opinions to yourself, but it's unlikely your values would fundamentally change.
I will only add - I speak from experience here.
- jajko 3 months agoHahaha. Take a look at western Europe. Vast majority of the immigrants from neither Africa or Middle east didn't adopt any of the core values of their host country even after decade+. More often than not, even second generation has very different values. What happens is isolated or connected silos of original values surviving a lot of generations.
Just ask Germans or French or Belgian folks, or go there. The idea was exactly what you write, and it failed miserably with no solution in sight.
Just to explain - we have friends among those communities. We like them a lot, but the difference is there even after couple of generations. Its not talked about much, but if you look for it, it shows up. Nobody will talk about this with strangers of course, thats just polite facade.
- bufferoverflow 3 months agoAbsolutely not. You can move me to any place on earth, I will not be okay with throwing gay people off the roofs for being gay.
The fact that you think like that is kind of insane to me.
- rafaelmn 3 months ago> and most of them would happily act and think just like the new culture, and swear blind that they’d always thought that way.
If that was true you wouldn't have minority communities isolated within larger ones, they would just naturally mix - but the ones that do are the outliers.
- ANewFormation 3 months ago
- bsoles 3 months ago> If you starve a wealthy man for 2 weeks he will be ready to cannibalize... People are the same everywhere.
> That is absolutely not true. People aren't the same even in adjacent neighborhoods sometimes. Some create great environments, some create hells on earth.
Sure. People are not the same in their current behaviors. People are the same in how they acquire their behaviors or change their behaviors based on the conditions of their environments. And sometimes these changes are very quick.
To give a very simple example, many people in my native country who would throw burning cigarette butts on the ground, stop doing so immediately when they, say, immigrate to the US. They didn't really change all of a sudden; what remains the same is the people's opportunistic ability to adapt to the conditions of their environment, regardless of what is moral, just, etc.
- alternatex 3 months agoYour example is a popular trope in the Balkans about how Balkan people behave when they go to work in Germany vs how they behave when they come back home in the Balkans.
Incentives are everything in a civilized society and anyone who cannot wrap their mind around this is most likely privileged.
- alternatex 3 months ago
- hnhg 3 months agoSome of those cultures that apparently celebrate gay people were also chemically castrating them not that long ago, and also have a lot of locals who still hate gay people and cannot wait to get back to the old ways.
The rise of the far right in Europe and USA might challenge your idea of fixed regional cultures quite soon.
- tomp 3 months agoThe main drive of who you call “far right” is precisely to import less people that want to throw gays off roofs.
- like_any_other 3 months agoThat same far right might challenge your idea of the far right. E.g. Germany's AfD is headed by a lesbian in a relationship with a Sri Lankan, and the party enjoys disproportionate support by gay men:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-do-so-many-gay-men-s...
- tomp 3 months ago
- itissid 3 months agoMy idea was to convey was that the sense of identity attached to a people is weird. And that people are just people. You can get the same set of people(genetically, demographically same) to kill millions in a war and become pious afterwards and vice versa.
When I said people are the same it means the same people who created great environments can in all likelihood create hell within a generation span.
- kaveh_h 3 months agoDistribution of Culture is way different now that internet enables virtual cultures to exist which have less physical barrier.
- Gormo 3 months agoIndividuals are drastically different from each other. Populations of humans, however, regress to the mean fairly readily, and even small groups (at least if they aren't grouped according to precise selection criteria) will tend to reflect very similar emergent patterns.
- only-one1701 3 months agoWould love to know your thoughts on what differentiates people. Perhaps race?
- K0balt 3 months agoPeople are motivated by genetics and memetics. Genetics makes us get hungry when we don’t eat, gives us sexual urges, things like that that we share with even the simpler forms of life. How we are affected and influenced by those stimuli is largely a matter of genetics.
How we react to those stimuli is governed by culture, or memetics. Like genes, memetic frameworks are also passed on generationally, but with a much higher mutation rate.
Genetics is hardware, which defines possible behaviors. Memetics is operating system and applications, defining actual behaviors.
- ANewFormation 3 months agoSimilar experience/perspective as the gp. People in different places are, in many if not most cases, just fundamentally different in countless ways.
I think both genetics (personality, among endless other characteristics is significantly to majority heritable and going to have different distributions in different areas) and environment/culture play significant roles.
But an interesting thing is that by the time people are adults, perhaps even before, the environmental factors have irreversibly changed them so marginalising cultural factors as "just" environmental doesn't really paint a fair picture.
For a person who's happy to travel/live just about anywhere this makes having children doubly fun, because you basically get to decide the 'cultural mold' for your children, which is really neat!
- jjani 3 months agoCulture is everything. Culture being the people you're surrounded with on a daily basis, not the culture of an arbitrary geography. The people you interact with in your home, at school, at work, at the church/sports club. What is the distribution of their actions, values, practices?
It is the major decider from the way one talks, one walks, one acts, one decides, everything.
Can it be overruled by nature? Yes, very rarely. There's always a very small percentage of people (often thought of as neurodivergent, or witches, or simply free-spirited or eccentric, all case by case) who's neurogenetics cause them to partiaLly diverge. But these are the exceptions.
- jamiek88 3 months agoSeeing how the concept of race is a social construct with absolutely zero science behind it then no.
- vladms 3 months agoI would call it culture. How you are educated, what you see around since day 0 on. It is very hard to escape it and unless you travel and live in another country you will not even be aware of such things (and even then you need a certain level of introspection).
- intrasight 3 months agoWe all differ in nature and nurture - in subtle and major ways.
We're knowledgeable people here, so we know there's no such thing as race other than as a human artifact. As human artifact, it can certainly affect how we think and therefore how we behave.
- K0balt 3 months ago
- mmooss 3 months agoSiblings raised together in the same family can vary greatly.
- mr_toad 3 months ago
- Aurornis 3 months agoMore accurately, I think it's just confusion about the Law of Large Numbers.
People confuse population-scale average behaviors with guarantees about individuals.
In any country you can find outliers that don't match the country's norms.
The hard part is that the devious ones can leverage their country's (or culture, or state, or relgious affiliation, etc.) norms to disguise their bad behavior. It's easier to scam someone if you pretend to blend in with groups known for being trustworthy.
- r3trohack3r 3 months ago> People are the same everywhere
This is not true in general. Environment does not only influence behavior, it selects for it.
As evidenced by our ability to breed behavior traits in domesticated animals - I.e. ragdoll cats, retrievers, rat terriers, etc. have distinct behavioral traits that have been intentionally selected for.
- cenamus 3 months agoThose dog breeds differ by like a factor of 10 in size, way more than humans basically in any aspect.
But yeah, depending on how strong the selective force is... Ashkenazy Jews have an average IQ of what, around 130 points? But on the other side also suffer a lot more genetic disorders.
Interesting are also the altitude tolerance of Sherpa, body morphology of the Kenian runners and the dive endurance of a particular South east asian tribe (if I remember correctly), some organ is able to store a lot more blood than usually
- cenamus 3 months ago
- fumufumufumu 3 months agoCulture has a large influence.
- toast0 3 months agoYou are saying humans are unpredictable, but then you make predictions.
I think you are saying that people's behavior changes based on stimulus. That doesn't mean they're unpredictable, just that the prediction shouldn't be unchanged behavior regardless of stimulus.
- d4mi3n 3 months agoI read it as the GP saying there's often confusion about assuming behavior about individuals as opposed to making predictions based on trends of large groups of individuals.
For some population, you can safely state that some portion of them will contract appendicitis. You cannot make that same assertion about an individual person. This likewise carries to specific behaviors (theft, charity, becoming a pet owner, etc).
- toast0 3 months agoThe same is true of say washing machine motors. You can predict that ~ 10% of them will fail in a certain amount of time (and even go into how they fail), but that doesn't tell you much about a specific motor. Or sports events, if you say there's a 25% chance of team A winning a single match; the results of the match don't support or refute your prediction... you'd have to run many matches to see if your prediction was empirically correct.
- toast0 3 months ago
- d4mi3n 3 months ago
- ashoeafoot 3 months agoIf you have a really well working economic system you can bribe everyone to be nice and you declare yourselves saints and history ended. Still makes those that upend these economic systems the evil ones. Even if paradise burns away the candle earth on both ends.
but i digress, and its hard to communicate that its better to end good times with ability to move, then to be caught in paradise, when the resource window falls shut. you want to be able to wiggle and act in the dark times, keep it together , have tech thats maintainable but not existence ending , while wild hordes fight for the last glimmering bits of the golden era.
- nilslindemann 3 months agoWhat you say seems to be an exaggerated view of the world ("It's just people"). You confuse a few people with sociopathic trails with the average normal human with a heart and a conscience.
The examples you give come from environments which are likely to attract sociopaths. You yourself are with a higher probability a narcissist than the average human [1].
[1] https://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/items/96cff233-cefd-45...
- 3 months ago
- hoseyor 3 months agoI disagree that people are unpredictable systems. The ruling class very much knows that people are not only predictable, but even programmable. It’s just the aspirational middle and some lower classes that have internalized the idea that there is no way to predict and that every human is the same and all different groups and people are equal in characteristics and qualities. For example, liars will lie, predictably, even if expressed as a function of probability.
- bufferoverflow 3 months ago
- bjornsing 3 months agoGreat documentary! The story that chocked me most was the social democrat local politician that helped criminals launder money and evade taxes in his spare time… How low can you sink?
- InDubioProRubio 3 months agoEveryone that tells him/herself a story, can use that story to justify crime. Defender of the underdogs. Saviour of the home-country from the foreign hordes. In every story, there is idealisation and demonisation, a giving up of complexity and the moral horror justifications of fairy tales.
- bjornsing 3 months agoPerhaps. But it takes a lot of story telling to be able to spend your days voting for higher taxes on law-abiding citizens, and your nights helping the worst in society evade those taxes…
- bjornsing 3 months ago
- InDubioProRubio 3 months ago
- raincom 3 months agoIn the third world, corruption is very open from the clerk in a local revenue office to the top ministers/secretaries. There is a price for every service.
In the West, it is hard to see low-level corruption (bribes for services) in offices. However, corruption takes form in the shape of collusion; and this collusion is pretty much legal. Revolving door, consultants, lobbyists, conflicts of interests, setting up NGOs to grab money from the govt, offering sinecure jobs like advisors, directors, etc for friends and family--these are some strategies to do unethical yet legal stuff in the West.
- gooosle 3 months agoIn Canada you can just steal public funds if you're in the government with complete immunity. Set up a government program to support X (ex - greeness, gender education in congo, studying a random worm somewhere in asia, etc), then just transfer the funds directly to your own companies, and the companies of your friends and family [1]. We had like 5 major corruption scandals in the last 2 years - basically zero repercussions for those involved.
If you pick the right reason/name for X - anyone who crticises you can also automatically be labelled racist, dumb, fascist or whatever as well.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustainable_Development_Tech...
- huijzer 3 months agoI was just listening to a talk by Stephen Kotkin were he mentioned corruption. He said corruption is not binary. Instead, it's a continuum. The question is how much of the money a public servant spends will actually end up in the desired outcome. In China, he said, maybe 20% will end up in the pockets of the public servant while the other 80% is spent on the road. In Nigeria, he said, everything will go to the servant and there will be no road.
Source: https://youtu.be/ZD8BhZEJcjI at around 1:00:00.
- raincom 3 months agoThis continuum hides one thing: overbidding in terms of project cost and underdelivery in terms of quality. At least in US, quality is maintained, while costing 300% more (look at any subway, rail projects). In the third world, projects are overbid, also underdeliver in terms of quality. No quality control at all.
- intrasight 3 months ago> it's a continuum
Corruption is multidimensional. There's the size. There's the nature of the parties involved. There's the question of whether it's legal or illegal - which itself as a continuum as my lawyer girlfriend always reminds me
- raincom 3 months ago
- 3 months ago
- dumbfounder 3 months agoNo conflict, no interest.
- gooosle 3 months ago
- croes 3 months agoWill that change Denmark‘s position in the Corruption Perception Index?
https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2024
I always thought the lower the more realistic
- nolito 3 months agoI d'ont. Im portuguese living in Denmark for many years. The difference is just perception.
The portuguese say: "this shitty country is so corrupt". I never encountered any corruption in Portugal.
The danes say: "See we are the best and justest country in the World without corruption". Facts say otherwise. Just google Lars Løkke Rasmussen and take a look at his actions
- croes 3 months agoIt became obvious to me in the banking crisis 2008 as everybody in Germany talked about corruption in Greece and ignored the German companies involved that bribed Greece politicians.
It doesn’t help either that the corruption perceptions index is often shortened in German to Korruptionsindex = corruption index which makes it sound objective instead instead of subjective
- guappa 3 months agoItalian living in sweden. It's 100% identical. They don't even bother to hide it, because there can't be corruption here by definition. So to us it's so obvious.
- croes 3 months ago
- nolito 3 months ago
- reptilian 3 months agoSame filmmaker exposed US, UK, Apartheid collaboration and involvement in the spread of HIV in Africa, and the assassination of the SecGen of the UN, Dags Hammerskjold
- HideousKojima 3 months agoFor Hammarskjold, the various documents that have been released or otherwise leaked suggest he could have been killed by the US, France, the USSR, or mercenaries hired by African mining interests. Or some combination of the above. As far as I can tell there is no definitive proof of who exactly was behind it, only that a lot of powerful people wanted him gone.
Does the filmmaker have access to some sort of exclusive information that the rest of the world doesn't? Or, like most of these sorts of filmmakers, is he drawing conclusions beyond what can be conclusively reached with the availabile evidence?
- reptilian 3 months agoWatch the documentary. Union miniere, Belgian government, SAIMR paramilitaries, CIA and MI6 all were deeply involved.
- reptilian 3 months agoYou'll have to watch "Cold Case Hammersjold
- HideousKojima 3 months ago"Though the filmmakers present Mr. Jones as a self-assured whistle-blower, their notes from several interviews they conducted with him before the final taping reflect that he repeatedly denied that his group was involved in an AIDS project."
"As the interviews progressed, the filmmakers posed additional questions that introduced details of possible militia activities. Mr. Jones’s responses evolved and, by the time he sat for the final interview, he professed firsthand knowledge of people and events that he had previously seemed to first learn about from the filmmakers."
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/27/world/africa/hammarskjold...
Yeah, I'm going to go out on a limb and say a documentary that claims western powers were intentionally spreading AIDS in South Africa (under the guise of a vaccination program) and does so on the basis of some extremely questionable witnesses might be stretching the evidence about some other things.
- HideousKojima 3 months ago
- reptilian 3 months ago
- jacobgorm 3 months agoHammerskjold died in a plane crash, so did the lead partner and her husband, also a partner, at the Horten law-firm that was the center of the "black swan" scandal, very recently:
https://euroweeklynews.com/2025/03/19/denmark-bound-plane-cr...
- florbnit 3 months agoThis seems so fake. They suddenly decide to go on a vacation and want to return on a small inexpensive plane that then crashes with their entire family on it in Switzerland less than 2min from takeoff?
Call it a conspiracy but I won’t at all be surprised when someone discovered they have transferred a large amount of funds to some “family friends” that look suspiciously like them but live in the Cayman Islands.
- florbnit 3 months ago
- piva00 3 months agoMinor nitpick, it is "Dag Hammarskjöld"
- pvg 3 months agoReptilians just like dags https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wmrOdqIfZk
- pvg 3 months ago
- kratom_sandwich 3 months agoI saw the documentary and highly recommend it, but one thing that irks me is that apparently there are no reports or investigations on this other than the movie itself? Seemed odd to me for such a larger-than-life-conspiracy …
- cess11 3 months agoWell, you hardly ever hear about the hundreds of thousands of cubans and their MiG:s or the covert support from Sweden when there's talk about the fall of south african apartheid either. It usually stops at reminiscing about some non-violent forms of protest and more lacklustre quotes from Mandela, considered a terrorist by the US until 2008.
It's a sensitive topic in the Occident, many powerful people would prefer their friends never face scrutiny or justice due to involvement with those crimes.
- cess11 3 months ago
- HideousKojima 3 months ago
- arghwhat 3 months agoBlack Swan was a big deal, but this article massively overstates the average Dane's faith in the system. The welfare state is certainly not reverred as a religion, and the current state of it is always a hot discussion topic with pulls in either direction.
Unlike what this article suggests, tax fraud is also relatively common (one would have to be rather daft to assume that a country with such absurdly high taxation did not have tax evasion as a key pastime - although probably not as aggressively as in places like the US), and while heavily frowned upon certainly not seen as the highest form of crime as this article suggests. Well, maybe if you ask the tax agency and the political parties pushing for ever more welfare, both of which push heavily for a cashless society where all financial transactions are fully trackable by them, but I think most would place tax evasion quite far down on the list of significant crimes.
I would instead say that the average Dane is carefree about these issues, not because they are trusting or believe their system is worth religious following, but because the issues experienced there feels quite minor compared to what seems to happen elsewhere in the world. When your concept of a significant natural disaster is a flooded basement, you tend to not worry that much about what happens locally.
- matwood 3 months ago> one would have to be rather daft to assume that a country with such absurdly high taxation did not have tax evasion as a key pastime - although probably not as aggressively as in places like the US
I think there is a distinction between avoidance (typically considered legal) and evasion (fraud and illegal). Everyone should practice avoidance, using the system as designed. IME, evasion is much higher in countries with say a VAT than the US. Paying cash for transactions, even rather large ones, is common in order to avoid 10-20%+ VAT.
- jltsiren 3 months agoThere is a third category: tax avoidance by abusing loopholes in the system. While legal, it's not about using the system as designed. I find it morally equivalent to illegal tax evasion. Behavior like that erodes trust in the system and makes the society worse.
- milesrout 3 months agoThere are three categories: tax minimisation (structuring legitimately to minimise tax), tax avoidance (structuring legitimately but artificially to avoid taxes) and tax evasion (lying to evade tax).
Tax minimisation is fine. Tax avoidance is, in sensible countries, not illegal but ineffective: tax avoidance arrangements are void for tax purposes. Tax evasion is a serious crime.
Avoidance is not using the system as it was designed. It is using the system as it was not intended, creating totally artificial structures just for tax reasons. In a sensible society the taxman can just say "clearly artificial so I will ignore this" and if you disagree, well, see you in court.
- rambambram 3 months agoMoney that is not required to be paid cannot be called a tax. Taxes are not voluntary. Things like tax avoidance don't even exist, by definition of the word.
- jsutter909 3 months agoWhat would you call going out of your way to buy cigarettes in a lower tax jurisdiction? The word avoidance seems pretty fitting here. Taxes are as voluntary as the activity being taxed
- jsutter909 3 months ago
- jltsiren 3 months ago
- 3 months ago
- dtquad 3 months agoThis isn't true and sounds like something written by terminally online reddit libertarians.
The Black Swan documentary is primarily about sleazy private sector actors in Denmark. The only remotely state affiliated individuals in the documentary is a business man who was a former small city council member and a bankruptcy lawyer who has previously contracted for Danish government organizations. The system worked fine and the Danish equivalent of the FBI, the NSK, already had ongoing cases of investigations into a lot of the uncovered material.
The only "common" tax fraud in Denmark is when a house needs some minor fixing before being put on sale. Many Danish people will pay their friend's friend to do it for them "under the table" and not as formally contracted and taxed work. This is becoming increasingly harder.
However this is far from the massive systemic corruption in many other countries.
- arghwhat 3 months agoOr when a restaurant owner inexplexably has really low private food expenditure, or has really low revenue on paper despite being relatively popular, or small companies having a lot of company dinners, or labor workers having a lot of company places to go in their company porsche SUV, or...
The reason regular salaried employees do this less, limited to the kind of sort arbejde ("under the table" labor) you describe is because it has become obscenely difficult to do anything meaningful with sorte penge (untaxed money) - not because people don't want to do more or didn't previously do it.
- absolutelastone 3 months agoSeems to me salaried workers would be a category that is more conscientious by self-selection. They are comfortable working within the rules of a system and less willing to take risks such as by violating those rules.
- absolutelastone 3 months ago
- DanielHB 3 months agoSweden (and I assume Denmark) has a lot of tax-dodging[1] (just like any other country). The tax code is complex (but not nearly US-complex) and gives plenty of ways to avoid paying tax[2].
But at least the tax agency seems quite keen on investigating abuses. I remember Klarna has to pay a huge fine for trying because of trying to abuse tax loopholes a few years ago.
[1] I define tax dodging as using legal tax loopholes in order to pay less tax. A lot of those tax rules are not even complicated, they were just set up with a specific type of person in mind to let them pay less tax.
[2] The most popular ones that middle class Swedes use are delaying paying property capital gains, 30% tax deduction on loan interest payments, special rules for private pension and using ISK investment accounts (which allow you to avoid capital gains). None of them are illegal, just heavily favor some demographics. It is not that hard for a upper middle class Swede to avoid the maximum 56% income tax rate and the 30% capital gains tax.
- guappa 3 months ago[flagged]
- arghwhat 3 months ago
- MaxHoppersGhost 3 months ago> one would have to be rather daft to assume that a country with such absurdly high taxation did not have tax evasion as a key pastime - although probably not as aggressively as in places like the US
The US has lower taxes so by your logic we would have less evasion. Unless you’re making a judgement on Americans.
- arghwhat 3 months agoI am making a judgement on the US corporate culture and population within it, yes. It has far more loopholes that remain open and actively used than Denmark does.
Denmark does its very best to make it either a pain in the arse or impossible to use company property in any way that could be seen as having private value. Did you drive home in your company car? Then get ready to be privately taxed of its full market value and for the company to get a bill for the VAT. Did you take a private phone call on a company phone? Then you have to pay the "free phone" tax and the company VAT of the phone. Did you buy furniture for your home office, but without having the home office locked to physically separate it from your regular home, or did you put a comfortable chair in there so it its private value becomes ambiguous? Not a valid company purchase.
Weird US tricks like getting paid in stock and taking loans with that stock as collateral, with the resulting liability cancelling out remaining tax also don't work there. The common stuff would be, say, restaurant owners inexplicably having really low private food expenditure, or really low revenue on paper for how popular the place is.
I suspect the reason is that the US government has pressure from lobbyists to maintain the status quo, while the DK government has pressure to claw in taxes to cover their sky high spending ambitions.
- murderfs 3 months ago> Weird US tricks like getting paid in stock and taking loans with that stock as collateral, with the resulting liability cancelling out remaining tax also don't work there.
That's not how the U.S. trick works, it's taking loans with the stock as collateral in order to defer realizing the capital gains while still being able to spend the money. It's no different from just taking out an unsecured loan, it's just that banks are more willing to give you a larger balance/less usurious rates if it's secured by something.
- murderfs 3 months ago
- scandox 3 months agoI think the common perception is that Americans are more ideologically committed to tax avoidance whereas Europeans are more viscerally tempted by tax evasion?
- StefanBatory 3 months agoNot being an American I've always had similar impressions. That taxes in USA are hated way more than anywhere else.
- StefanBatory 3 months ago
- arghwhat 3 months ago
- matwood 3 months ago
- danso 3 months agoBesides the description of the scandal for non-Danish audiences, this was also an interesting reflection on the deception inherent in the production of any kind of documentary work, even when it's portrayed as straight CCTV footage.
> All documentaries are artificial: their footage has been carefully threshed and sieved with an eye to telling a story or pushing an argument. The Black Swan, though, relies on the unblinking, real-time gaze of hidden CCTV cameras, so we lull ourselves into thinking that we’re seeing the full picture, the full truth. No such thing. Instead, we get evasion upon evasion: Smajic’s charade for her clients, Malm cheating the taxman, TV2 withholding their work from the police, Brügger keeping details from his audience. Smajic’s final bluff merely confirms what Brügger seems to have believed throughout his career: everywhere, there are conspiracies and lies that he must expose, even if he has to participate in the dissembling himself.
> ...Smajic believes she’s a victim of journalistic deceit. The Black Swan was meant to be about her life, she said, with the hidden camera footage being used only sparingly to corroborate her stories. She’d been offered no security during the filming, she said. When TV2 screened the first three episodes for her approval, they were really just raw, unedited clips, she maintained, and in any case, she’d been strongly medicated after a surgery and couldn’t assess them with a clear mind. (“Amira watched the edited episodes, they just needed finalising,” TV2’s Nørgaard told me. “During the four hours she spent with the editorial team that day, she appeared unaffected and seemed coherent, as we also documented in the series.”) Smajic hadn’t been running any other office at the time, she said to me, and in any case, “they hadn’t bought the rights to every single moment in my life”.
- B1FF_PSUVM 3 months agoI cannae creids there would be something rotten in the state of Denmark
- wtcactus 3 months agoDid it really shatter their self image, or it just made every Dane realize that the tabu their society created against speaking badly on the absurdity high taxation they face is actually felt by everyone that is a net contributor of their system?
The middle class citizen in most of Europe is now paying more than 50% of their earnings to the state. I don’t believe a single one actually believes this is anything fair and many surely think it’s oppressive and a form of slavery.
There are only 3 kinds of people that defend these outrageously high taxes:
- the ones that are a net negative to the system
- populist politicians
- people that are indoctrinated to virtue signal about the theme, but that don’t actually believe in it (the ones in the video)
We are really living in the Dictatorship of the Majority.
- boruto 3 months agoI did not except the biker gang bandidos in Denmark is led by one Abrar raja. I don't know, as an Indian it just feels weird to hear a Pakistani name in that setting.
- crossroadsguy 3 months agoAnd I, also as an Indian, am thinking how could they beat us to that. Why not an Indian ;-)
- crossroadsguy 3 months ago
- kratom_sandwich 3 months agoCrtl-F "who turns 53 in June" to skip a rather lengthy description of the series (or scroll to the large red "B")
> Nothing I learned from Smajic solved the central mystery of The Black Swan: why did she choose to capsize her life by participating at all?
I recall that Herve Falciani only leaked his trove of tax data when a police investigation was closing in on him. Maybe something similar here: a looming indictment?
- boomboomsubban 3 months agoShe was a police informant, and surely any looming indictment would happen in the ~5 years since this started.
- boomboomsubban 3 months ago
- subpixel 3 months agoWhy can’t I find this series anywhere? Even for, you know, download?
- JMiao 3 months agoHow can we view in the usa?
- everybodyknows 3 months agoKanopy has two of Brügger's docus.
- everybodyknows 3 months ago
- mrweasel 3 months agoThat seems a bit overblown. I doubt that most wasn't aware that things like this is going on. Perhaps the scale and the number of people involved is a little more than most would have expected. The worst bit, for me and most of the people I debated the documentary with is how people can be so unapologetic about doing irreparable environmental damage. There's currently a another case where a company have blatantly mismanaged handling of polluted soil, in the name of profit. The fact that these people don't give a shit, and the people working of them just hit a wall if they're trying to alert local government is the most choking, not that there's corruption.
Also this type of corruption isn't seen by Danes in our day to day life, so they don't really register on our corruption perception. I still struggle to view it as corruption and not just straight up criminal activity or deliberate environmental damage.
- 3 months ago
- eitland 3 months agoHaven't seen this film, but here are some observations I think we should keep in mind in general when it comes to journalism.
There is a famous saying, that in one version goes like this:
I consider it completely unimportant who in the party will vote, or how; but what is extraordinarily important is this — who will count the votes, and how. [1]
Mutatis mutandis, something very similar can be said about filmmaking: it is of less importance exactly what someone says and of great importance who cuts and edit it.
Light or lack of light, missing context - this can be the exact questions asked that triggered the answer[2] or what the person said to qualify their statements [3]. There is music, sound effects, camera perspectives and so on and so on.
One can also lead the viewer towards a conclusion without spelling it out [4].
There is a reason militaries advice soldier that in case of capture we should say as little as absolutely possible outside of what one is legally required to say: name, rank, service number, and date of birth. Anything and everything can and probably will be abused.
This is true not only for opponents in a war but as probably everyone knows also with police in most of the world, and HN is keenly aware of this.
I'd argue that we should be equally aware when it comes to journalism: as much as I respect many journalists, they are not a homogeneous group of perfectly ethical people striving for perfect objectivity. They have personal agendas: fame, income, people and cases they sympathize with and people and cases theywant to hurt.
We should be aware of this when reading, watching or listening - but of course even more when answering questions.
Any competent defense attorney can tell
[1]: Supposedly said by Stalin in reference to a vote in the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, but exactly who said is is less important than the general idea.
[2]: can be as simple as this classic: asking the person "hypothetically, if you wanted to ... how would you have done it?"
[3]: Simple example: "Q: Have you cheated on your taxes? A: yes, <here the director cuts>, back in 1956 when I was 18 ..."
[4]: This is an actual example: Our public broadcaster in Norway mentioning that they had tried to investigate the economic transactions of some people, saying they couldn't do it and it was very confusing and ending that segment with a merry go round.
What they didn't mention was that Norwegian police had already investigated the same people over three years, several months secretly and had not only been unable to prove the crimes suggested, but gone as far as stating they found it proven that the accused were innocent.
- edm0nd 3 months agoDid you really make it as a rapper? Do you have a Spotify or Soundcloud or wat?
- curtisszmania 3 months ago[dead]
- saranshsharma 3 months ago[dead]
- boomboomsubban 3 months agoI wonder if this will impact Denmark's spot at the top of the corruption perceptions index. Last years rankings still has them at first, but it's hard to say when the data was collected. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
- guappa 3 months agoNo it won't. They ignore all evidence of corruption so far, they can keep going. The whole point is they think other countries are more corrupt than them, because they're just better.
edit: if you downvote me and haven't lived in a scandinavian country for over a decade… perhaps trust me instead of trusting your preconceptions?
- 3 months ago
- guappa 3 months ago
- mtgentry 3 months agoOne nice thing about being on the spectrum is that you can spot morally sketchy situations more clearly—or at least more clearly than most normies. I once walked out of a pitch meeting where we were trying to land a client that completely clashed with a solid, well-paying client we already had. I couldn’t believe no one else saw the huge conflict of interest. No one batted an eyelash.
- albert_e 3 months ago> One out of every two Danes has seen the documentary.
Why not simpler English -- "half of the country has watched it"
Also pendatic aside -- i think "every two danes" is a stretch -- i am sure we can find many instances of "two danes" where both has watched it. Or neither. Some are being born as we speak (write).
- daedrdev 3 months agoOne out of every two X is an extremely common and perfectly reasonable phrase in english, meaning your complaint about finding 2 Danes who haven't watched it is nonsensical as we know they mean on average.
- albert_e 3 months agoI know this format is common usage but don't see it commonly used to represent this fraction-- 50% or half -- where this construct seems needlessly long or formal.
The second part was just playful aside -- not serious. Ofcourse that didn't come through. I know there is a common sensical read that all readers will apply to it and it will not be misinterpreted. I thought this being HN people will find it amusing to treat it as a logical statement and parse.
- albert_e 3 months ago
- dfawcus 3 months ago> Why not simpler English -- "half of the country has watched it"
I guess as it was aimed at a British audience, and that is not an uncommon way for us to form such sentences.
If you hadn't mentioned it, I'd not even have noticed it, simply parsing it as "half".
- danso 3 months agoIf this were social media, at least 10 people including me would be replying with the Major Hellstrom Sees Three Fingers meme.
- danso 3 months ago
- thwarted 3 months agoWhy say "four out of five dentists" instead of "80% of dentists"?
- albert_e 3 months agoSeems a bit needlessly long when employed for a concept more mundanely called "half". A lay person uses half more often, I would imagine.
For all other fractions, I don't feel it is that odd to use X out of Y construct.
- dfawcus 3 months agoBecause that is just what we do.
Expressing things as percentages was a late arrival; when until the mid 70s folks had to be able to cope with, and mentally manipulate vulgar fractions.
- absolutelastone 3 months ago"four out of five" has the same number of syllables as "80%". "Three out of four" has even fewer syllables than 75%, for that matter. So I can see why those stuck around. Meanwhile "one out of two" is wordier than just "half". Are you saying British people still use it in such an inefficient case anyway?
- absolutelastone 3 months ago
- albert_e 3 months ago
- daedrdev 3 months ago