Microsoft subtracts C/C++ extension from VS Code forks

243 points by Dotnaught 2 months ago | 344 comments
  • bangaladore 2 months ago
    To be clear, I'm don't like the Microsoft has a proprietary Marketplace, but a company openly violating the terms of use for their own profit is a bit much in my opinion.

    > Cursor allegedly has been flouting Microsoft terms-of-service rules for some time now by setting up a reverse proxy to mask its network requests to the endpoints used by the Microsoft Visual Studio Marketplace. This allows Cursor users to install VS Code extensions from Microsoft's market. Other VS Code forks tend to point to Open VSX, an alternative extension marketplace.

    • grobbyy 2 months ago
      Terms of service often contain illegal provisions. I teach kids to flout them too. One of the biggest sins in school is kids learn to follow rules uncritically.

      There are specific protections allowed when the goal is to maintain / break compatibility. If Microsoft locks competitors out, competitors are quite often permitted to pick the lock.

      I can't comment on this situation since I don't know the details, but it's very likely this is fully legal.

      See Oracle / Java API lawsuit, garage door opener suit, etc. To see where the lines sit.

      • kyrra 2 months ago
        I think your analogies are wrong.

        There is a direct cost to Microsoft that these companies are pushing on them. Specifically around bandwidth.

        Microsoft does not need to provide access for downloading plugins from their servers to anyone else.

        • mrpopo 2 months ago
          I am quite confident that the bandwidth cost is absolutely not a concern for Microsoft, and that the obvious goal is for them to capture the market.

          The "C/C++" extension github repository is 4MB. Probably the download size for the extension itself is a fraction of that, but I won't bother measuring. It was downloaded 400 times over the last minute (there is a live counter on the extension page [0]).

          [0] https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ms-vscod...

          That's a 25MB/s or 200Mb/s bandwidth, for one of the most popular extensions. Multiply by the top 10 extensions and you get the bandwidth of an average home optic fiber connection...

          • mitchitized 2 months ago
            It is a public website and a public service - it's like saying "hey I got free lemonade here, but you can't have it unless I decide I like you first."

            If you're giving something away online for free, then you are giving it away for free. I'll never understand the cognitive dissonance of "conditionally free".

            A more important question is where do we draw the line of abuse? If someone links to my website and that's okay with me, but someone else does and I don't like it, do I have the right to conditionally block access to them? And do they have the right to circumvent that to regain access that I freely give to others?

            • aleph_minus_one 2 months ago
              > There is a direct cost to Microsoft that these companies are pushing on them. Specifically around bandwidth.

              If Microsoft were not be very willing to bear this cost, they would never have built a marketplace into VS Code.

              • mystified5016 2 months ago
                Why does Microsoft have the right to cause users unrestricted bandwidth use through updates and ads and spying? That's a real cost Microsoft is forcing onto users.

                If bandwidth is so precious, why isn't Microsoft paying users for the bandwidth they use pushing ads to their PC? Why isn't it considered onerous for them to foist tens of gigabytes in updates every week? This is a direct cost to consumers that Microsoft is pushing on them. Do you think that's fair? Or do you want to admit that your entire premise and argument is nonsense corporate apologism?

            • axpvms 2 months ago
              cursor also hijacks the 'code' alias to start vscode from the cli, which I use a lot. It's extremely annoying to have cursor start instead and unnncessarily difficult to get rid of. I removed cursor because of this.
              • doix 2 months ago
                I'm pretty sure that was an option when installing, I remember unchecking it and 'code' still launches vscode for me. Curious how it's difficult to remove, I'd expect something like rm `which code` to do it. Unless they add the alias to your shell or something?
                • axpvms 2 months ago
                  maybe they changed some things last I used it, which was maybe six months ago. I've tried cursor twice and had the same issue each time. I saw the dialogue you were talking about and specifically selected to not override the code extension and it happened again anyway. Maybe there was something left over from the previous install, I don't know.

                  I was using windows and wsl, and they were adding scripts to my profile directory (code.cmd) which then took precedence over vscode, from what I remember. Tracking that down required googling to discover other people who were having the same issue. If this is what I have to do when I first start using a product, it just leaves a bad impression. Additionally it seems that it will hijack the 'code' alias in WSL if you select this option or not, which is where I primarily use it. And then when cursor updates, it seems it will again attempt to overwrite this alias.

                  I'm not the only one who encounters this issue https://github.com/getcursor/cursor/issues/2654https://github.com/getcursor/cursor/issues/2566https://forum.cursor.com/t/do-not-hijack-code-shortcut/60671https://namvu.net/2025/01/cursor-stole-your-code-command-her...

                  Maybe it works great for other people and they never encounter this issue. Maybe it seems like a petty thing. For me it seems it's implemented to attempt to 'force convert' some vscode users to use cursor all the time, and maybe that works and it's a success from a business perspective. But I won't use it again.

                • LinAGKar 2 months ago
                  "code" is way too generic for a single program to claim exclusive rights to it.
                  • axpvms 2 months ago
                    maybe, but their product is basically a reskinned version of that single program, it seems pretty clear they know what they are doing here.
                  • hbogert 2 months ago
                    if i remember correctly, on my first start of cursor, it explicitly asked if it was allowed to do this.
                  • madeofpalk 2 months ago
                    Yeah, I've noticed this using cursor. I was surprised that the extension marketplace seemed... identical to VS Code.
                    • benoau 2 months ago
                      But why should we care? It's obvious Cursor's IDE is VSCode, I cannot think of a single reason why I should be against executing whatever the hell I want on my computer. It's not Cursor doing this, it's me doing this using Cursor.
                      • fsloth 2 months ago
                        That’s not how companies see it.

                        From MS point of view it’s Cursor doing it to them.

                        The way copyright and other rights to your IP you claim to have work in practice, is you need to enforce those claims or loose the rights.

                        • madeofpalk 2 months ago
                          I don't care. I was just surprised at them doing that because I thought MS/VSCode did not allow it.

                          It would impact users if things escalate and gets more hostile between the two and starts impacting features (like regressions in extension availability)

                      • bitbasher 2 months ago
                        Fun fact, adblockers are often a violation to ToS as well. Should we all uninstall them?
                        • bangaladore 2 months ago
                          I have no problem with you violating TOS. But a corporation openly doing it is problematic.

                          I get Microsoft is a Megacorp, but I don't think too highly of all these ai startups either.

                          • bitbasher 2 months ago
                            I don't like the AI startups either. My main concern is this behavior being normalized and the non-AI startups (or open source projects) getting shafted.
                        • AIPedant 2 months ago
                          The Cursor founders (technically the company is called Anysphere, Inc) are all young MIT grads. What they needed is a 40-year-old with a degree from Fitchburg State who could say "Woah, don't do that! It's not worth the long-term risk!"
                          • londons_explore 2 months ago
                            It is worth the long term risk.

                            Either you don't get caught and can move faster, or you get caught and the penalty is usually small and a long way down the line, by which time your company will have either folded or grown enough to pay without difficulty.

                            • electroly 2 months ago
                              That's the play when your adversary is regulation--the government moves slowly, court cases move even slower, and you can grease the wheels politically.

                              That is not the scenario here. Cursor is being hunted by an extremely motivated corporate competitor. Cursor has been leeching the gorilla's blood and the gorilla finally noticed. Microsoft doesn't (necessarily) need the law here. They have it if they need it, but they can kill Cursor without needing to sue them. The disastrous outcome isn't a penalty--it's a critical mass of users switching to Copilot because they can't use their Microsoft extensions in Cursor any more. Cutting off the extensions on the same day that their Cursor clone went live was effectively a declaration of war from Microsoft.

                              • jonstewart 2 months ago
                                Or, hear me out, Microsoft decides you’d make excellent additions its House of Faces For IDE/Compiler Competitors and your face is on the wall before you know what happened.
                              • redox99 2 months ago
                                Grow fast, raise a few billions, deal with the lawsuit in a few years.
                                • hnfong 2 months ago
                                  Grow fast, raise a few billions, deal with the lawsuit in a few years when you're big enough to buy lobbyists in Washingon DC.
                                  • nicce 2 months ago
                                    I have lost the hope. Money is always the measure of ethics.
                                  • thenipper 2 months ago
                                    The amount of Boston in this comment is amazing. And 100% true
                                    • 2 months ago
                                    • pier25 2 months ago
                                      Exactly. What were they expecting would happen? They are breaking the tos while competing with Microsoft.
                                      • sterlind 2 months ago
                                        exactly! laws are for old geezers who went to State, not young superstars with fancy degrees. MIT negotiated diplomatic immunity for its graduates, after all. that's why Sam Bankman-Fried got acquitted when FTX went under.
                                      • m463 2 months ago
                                        lol, Microsoft has been doing this kind of thing for a while...

                                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_litigation#Antitrust

                                        • bangaladore 2 months ago
                                          While its fair to claim Microsoft has legal issues, I'm not sure what similarity you are drawing to what Cursor is doing.
                                          • benoau 2 months ago
                                            It's what is motivating Microsoft to prevent what Cursor is doing.

                                            All cursor is doing is saying this blob of crap is compatible with their fork and letting you run it. This is akin to browsers supporting extensions from other browsers, and many other scenarios.

                                            What Microsoft is doing is trying to prevent VSCode from becoming spontaneously obsolete because coding with Cursor a) removes you from VSCode and b) does it better.

                                      • yoyohello13 2 months ago
                                        Look, if you willingly have any piece of your stack relying on Microsoft you have to be ready for the rug pull. They WILL fuck you, it's guaranteed.
                                        • akdor1154 2 months ago
                                          Lucky no-one is reliant on niche tools like NPM or GitHub, otherwise they'd be feeling mightily insecure right now.
                                          • aleph_minus_one 2 months ago
                                            > Lucky no-one is reliant on niche tools like NPM or GitHub, otherwise they'd be feeling mightily insecure right now.

                                            I did completely move away from GitHub (which is by now named "ShitHub" in some circles) the moment that Microsoft enforced 2FA on my account.

                                            Yes, perhaps 2FA is a good idea for many scenarios, but if some company forces it upon me, I won't have any tolerance to be willing to be their customer/user anymore.

                                            See [1] for a different perspective on this topic.

                                            ---

                                            And yes, I agree with you that is a great idea for a next step to at least strongly reduce (or even cut) your dependence on NPM wherever possible.

                                            ---

                                            [1] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/72512276/how-to-disable-...

                                            • EasyMark 2 months ago
                                              I think even Microsoft is in too deep to suddenly pull the carpet on NPM/Github. Talk about a public relations nightmare
                                            • cess11 2 months ago
                                              Now, I get why you made the quip, but I for one keep both of those out of the business I run for this exact reason: I do not trust MICROS~1 in the medium to long term.

                                              I also present the CEO and board with other arguments, like moral ones about involvement in atrocities and tyranny, legal ones regarding things like data protection, market related ones such as the likelihood of a future showdown between the EU and US.

                                              But the risk that MICROS~1 fucks us over directly is even easier for them to understand, because they have been using Windows and Office for decades and are quite queasy about 10 going EOL and what the next set of annoyances in document management will be that they'll have to suffer under. It's something they have immediate experience of and didn't like.

                                              A year from now it's probable we'll only have a couple of Windows machines left, because some of our customers use software that doesn't run under Wine and tries to block execution under both debuggers and container environments.

                                              • dmz73 2 months ago
                                                I don't like to be seen as defending Microsoft, they definitely have their share of faults, but as far as business goes, I think Microsoft is the least likely company to screw you over as a (business) customer. Microsoft has kept old software working pretty much unchanged for the last 20 years. I know, I still have software built on early Windows 95/NT4 that works fine on Windows 11...and with some registry tweaks Windows 11 will run on a computer from 2005 without too many issues (sure, 3rd party security software and js-heavy web pages will be slow but that is not directly MS fault). Windows 10 EOL in 2025 is only for consumer level stuff, you can get Windows 10 support for enterprise for another 2 years at least and some versions even up to 2029, so again, if you are a business, you are taken care of (if you are "cheaping" you way with Windows Home and Pro in business then you kind of get what you pay for, I am sure you as a business don't give away free products/services for years on end). And you can keep using your Windows 10 after EOL, not like they lock you out, they just don't support you...just like you don't repair stuff for free after warranty end. Compare that to any other tech company that churns through HW and SW much faster and much more severely where old HW and SW no longer works or cannot connect to the internet or use the latest browser so you cannot connect to the latest HTTPS servers. Even open source software breaks compatibilty with older versions much more oftern than Microsoft, but since that is "free" people just shrug it off.
                                              • bigpeopleareold 2 months ago
                                                Lucky I don't. It's my employer that takes the big risk. But I guess they take larger risks than their Microsoft-only strategy.
                                                • nicce 2 months ago
                                                  Or ChatGPT… maybe not their development but that is who runs it.
                                                • IcyWindows 2 months ago
                                                  I don't see how it can be a rug pull when in this case it was clearly against the terms of use?
                                                  • aranchelk 2 months ago
                                                    Not to quibble, but VSCode (and GitHub for that matter) are part of my tooling, not part of any of my stacks.

                                                    To me the former is tolerable, the latter is not.

                                                    • corytheboyd 2 months ago
                                                      I think they are talking about products like Cursor.
                                                      • aranchelk 2 months ago
                                                        Ah, that’s a painful situation.
                                                      • lakomen 2 months ago
                                                        I've been shafted by Github under MS ownership in the past, after 7 years. I'm using a gitea instance ever since. The only thing Github is good for is visibility/discoverability. Do not trust Microsoft ever. They will fuck you.
                                                        • sitkack 2 months ago
                                                          At this point, GH is like Twitter, people are begrudgingly using it because it has the most visibility.
                                                      • ohgr 2 months ago
                                                        Yep. Was a Microsoft dev from 1992 until 2017. Won’t touch them now because I spent my entire career rewriting rug pulls. It paid off a mortgage and fed me well but it was a bad outcome for my orgs and customers.

                                                        If anyone remembers WCF/AppFabric/WWF and Silverlight, that was the last stack I rewrote someone out of the shit on.

                                                        • aggieNick02 2 months ago
                                                          There was a lot of hype and momentum around Silverlight back in the day, until their wasn't. You got a cross-platform (Mac/Windows) WPF-like UI and C# programming environment, which was powerful.

                                                          I had the fortune to be involved developing the LEGO Mindstorms EV3 programming software. Under the hood, it was a small web browser shell (using Mono on Mac and WPF on Windows) around a Silverlight Out-of-Browser app. Anything beyond the permissions of the Silverlight app (e.g. bluetooth/USB comms) was an RPC from Silverlight to the shell.

                                                          After completing the Mac/Windows app, LEGO wanted to deliver a similar experience on iPad. There was no Silverlight there, and it was clear there never would be. But we were able to leverage Xamarin stuff to reuse most of the same codebase, just with an iOS UI on top.

                                                          • bombcar 2 months ago
                                                            There was a hot minute (and it was about a minute!) where Silverlight was absolutely phenomenal.

                                                            Too bad “every app is just a website” took over because of the cross-platform issues.

                                                            • zdimension 2 months ago
                                                              By chance, do you happen to know if the Mindstorms NXT (the old one, before EV3) software was based on the same toolkit? I always wondered what UI framework it used, it had an unusual look.
                                                              • aggieNick02 2 months ago
                                                                oof, :%s/their/there
                                                              • mrj 2 months ago
                                                                I started my career rewriting a product using Microsoft's DNA business server with Java and never looked back. I'm shocked this keeps happening, honestly. I guess I'm a "never again" sort but surprised there's not more companies refusing to deal with Microsoft.

                                                                Due to experiences like that I refused to buy volume licenses from them, too. Sometime later I got an audit demand for which I had a reply ready.

                                                                "lol, no."

                                                                • globnomulous 2 months ago
                                                                  Sorry if I'm being dense, but what is an "audit demand?" (Looked it up and couldn't find anything obviously relevant.)
                                                                • int_19h 2 months ago
                                                                  Funnily enough, those ancient WPF, WinForms, and even MFC apps still compile and work fine. The rug pull only became the standard operating procedure at a certain point.
                                                                  • Aloha 2 months ago
                                                                    I’m still dealing with the long goodbye of a silverlight app which now must be somehow ported.
                                                                    • EasyMark 2 months ago
                                                                      if there's an escape hatch you should probably use it. In my experience companies never support you during rewrites "well why don't you just convert the code to X language" almost never works on a huge project, it takes a ground up approach, and relying on the old stuff as "more like guidelines than the actual law"
                                                                    • p_ing 2 months ago
                                                                      > WCF/AppFabric/WWF

                                                                      SharePoint Server Subscription Edition still uses those techs today.

                                                                    • Salgat 2 months ago
                                                                      Is it really a rug pull? It's a closed source extension with terms specific to use with vs code. Nothing has changed in that regard. All they did was close a workaround for a competing company's product.
                                                                      • jenadine 2 months ago
                                                                        It's hard not to rely on Microsoft.

                                                                        Open source project hosted on GitHub, for the network effect.

                                                                        Use Rust which also rely on GitHub for crates.io

                                                                        • kibwen 2 months ago
                                                                          Crates.io stopped relying on Github in June 2023. Now Cargo uses sparse HTTP-based index lookups rather than cloning the old git-based index repo (the old repo is still offered for users on older versions). And the crates themselves have never been served from Github. https://blog.rust-lang.org/2023/06/01/Rust-1.70.0/#sparse-by...
                                                                          • aleph_minus_one 2 months ago
                                                                            > Open source project hosted on GitHub, for the network effect.

                                                                            > Use Rust which also rely on GitHub for crates.io

                                                                            It is a very good idea to get rid of both as far and soon as possible. And, as I wrote at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43793095 in some circles it already became very fashionable to call GitHub "ShitHub" and somewhat look down upon open-source projects that have their central repository on GitHub (i.e. are willing to enslave themselves to Microsoft for some stupid "network effect").

                                                                            • gkbrk 2 months ago
                                                                              > it already became very fashionable to call GitHub "ShitHub"

                                                                              I talk to a lot of people developing both open-source, and proprietary software. Some of those are on GitHub, others on SourceHut, others on Codeberg. I have never heard, not even once, a single person other than you use the word ShitHub.

                                                                              Maybe it's used in some obscure circle you are in, but it's nowhere close to fashionable.

                                                                              • jen20 2 months ago
                                                                                > it already became very fashionable to call GitHub "ShitHub"

                                                                                You’ve said this a few times, without stating which circles? I assume mostly among four-year-olds given the level of wit involved?

                                                                            • pjmlp 2 months ago
                                                                              Don't build castles in other people's kingdoms, apparently a lesson that keeps being relearnt.
                                                                              • croes 2 months ago
                                                                                Then it's hard to build anything.
                                                                                • pjmlp 2 months ago
                                                                                  Why should it be easy to start with?

                                                                                  Hardly anything is given for free in this life, it has to be earned.

                                                                              • jeroenhd 2 months ago
                                                                                It took them five years to actually take action on enforcing their ToS. It's not as much of a rug pull as it's the result of their competitors blatantly ignoring the license on proprietary code from a proprietary code giant.

                                                                                Unless the developers of the IDEs hit by this never actually read the ToS, of course, which would only make them less reliable as an IDE provider.

                                                                                • pas 2 months ago
                                                                                  Nah, obviously an AI read the ToS and wrote the code for Cursor!

                                                                                  After all MS is completely okay with their AI darling reading ToS-protected stuff.

                                                                                • znpy 2 months ago
                                                                                  Anything that’s not gpl-licensed is going to pull the rug from under your feet, people should have learned this by now.

                                                                                  Also, if you do open source contributions, never ever agree to assign copyright to the project: doing so means the project owners can relicense the code base, even towards proprietary license.

                                                                                  • tuveson 2 months ago
                                                                                    FreeBSD must be pulling a very long con, then.
                                                                                    • hedora 2 months ago
                                                                                      Yeah.

                                                                                      I think project governance matters more than license, and the BSDs are great examples.

                                                                                      Having said that, I’ve soured on the GPL. V3 more-or-less bans companies from selling you hardware that runs free software, but lets Google, Meta, etc use the software to expand their cloud-based monopolies where surveillance capitalism and enshittification have won out.

                                                                                      AGPL or BSL seem much better if you want free as in freedom. BSD and Apache at least don’t force your software off of machines that end users control.

                                                                                      Yes, BSL is not open (TM) or free (TM) or whatever. It’s still better IMHO, since it at least has some path to revenue for the developers.

                                                                                      • znpy 2 months ago
                                                                                        Uh, yes?

                                                                                        Half of the initial mac os x kernel was ripped off freebsd, giving pretty much nothing back.

                                                                                        Afaik netapp is also basing their system on bsd.

                                                                                        Sony uses freebsd as the OS for their playstation.

                                                                                        And many more, giving essentially nothing back.

                                                                                      • kstrauser 2 months ago
                                                                                        Absolutely. I signed one copyright assignment, ever, with the FSF. I trust them enough to do that, but they're just about the only ones.
                                                                                        • eikenberry 2 months ago
                                                                                          They don't require it anymore.
                                                                                      • beanjuiceII 2 months ago
                                                                                        meanwhile here i am using dot net 4.5 on windows server 2022 haven't changed the code in a decade
                                                                                        • kittikitti 2 months ago
                                                                                          Then they will gaslight you.
                                                                                        • Certified 2 months ago
                                                                                          Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.

                                                                                          Microsoft knew they would never get significant market share unless they offered open source alternatives that let you circumvent the telemetry in the early days of VScode. Embrace. The acquisition of github was part of this strategy. They made an ecosystem that sucked a lot of plugin developer talent into their ecosystem. Extend. Now the market share is firmly in their grasp and competitors have become weaker. Extinguish.

                                                                                          • formerly_proven 2 months ago
                                                                                            Microsoft couldn't have telegraphed their intentions more clearly if they tried, yet tons and tons of people and organizations fell for it (again!).

                                                                                            VS Code source is under MIT, but the built product is under an EULA - and all Microsoft extensions are under an EULA that requires the use of the EULA build.

                                                                                            As has been already posted multiple times here... https://ghuntley.com/fracture/

                                                                                            • rpdillon 2 months ago
                                                                                              Yeah, the main reason I never switched from emacs to VSCode is because I was worried about Microsoft's stewardship of it, particularly the fact that the extension ecosystem, which is so critical to a good editor, was burdened. There have been a lot of discussions about VSCodium's use of the manifest files from the original VS Code manifest without permission, and while that wasn't enforced, it was never really resolved.

                                                                                              Sad to see it go in such a predictable direction.

                                                                                            • EasyMark 2 months ago
                                                                                              This is it in a nutshell, with a lot of corps; IBM, Microsoft, etc. Be careful who you lie in bed with. Seemslike newer companies like Facebook and Google have a much much better track record. They may end a project but they don't suck you in and then say "nah, it's proprietary now"
                                                                                              • GuB-42 2 months ago
                                                                                                Android slowly became that.

                                                                                                AOSP used to be the complete Android system, more or less. And when you bought a Nexus device from Google, that's what you got. But they progressively abandoned the stock apps to replace them by their proprietary counterparts, or ones tied to their online services.

                                                                                                Then, they replaced their Nexus line of phones with the Pixel line. Pixels are full of proprietary technology, and their last move was to make Android development private.

                                                                                                • someNameIG 2 months ago
                                                                                                  AOSP is still fully open source and allows you to build a complete Android system on it though. Theirs open source GrapheneOS, LineageOS, /e/OS, and the closed source onset on Chinese domestic phones that have their own proprietary versions on play services.
                                                                                                  • ndiddy 2 months ago
                                                                                                    Here's a pretty good Linus Tech Tips video where he installs stock AOSP on a Pixel phone and goes over how it's virtually unusable. Just like you say, while the Pixel UI may be Google's vision for how the Android platform should work, they've moved to keeping their UI development private just like every other Android vendor. Meanwhile, stock AOSP has basically been left to rot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hlRB2izres
                                                                                                  • diegof79 2 months ago
                                                                                                    The track record of Facebook and Google may be better because their open-source strategy is to never open things that are core to their business. Projects like React will not give you a competitive advantage to build a Facebook competitor. What a project like React gives to Facebook is marketing and a carrot to bring promising talent to the company.

                                                                                                    The issue with VS Code is that it opened the door to many other editors, which, in a sense, drive people away from the Microsoft ecosystem. The combination of VSCode, GitHub, and TypeScript is ideal for MS: they win by attracting companies to GitHub services (which also offer code spaces based on VSCode); they also win by attracting users to Copilot, which helps them improve their tools. Creating an editor like VS Code is expensive; they are not paying the core developers because they prefer to give away money. They do it because it's part of their business strategy. You don't pay for VS Code; companies that subscribe to GitHub services do. A VS Code fork circumvents that strategy.

                                                                                                    • rthomas6 2 months ago
                                                                                                      Eh. Google may be better than Microsoft in this regard, but this is basically what they're doing with Android. AOSP is now lacking a lot of core functionality that comes with Google Pixel phones, such as RCS messaging, emoji reactions to text messages, camera features and photo editing, voicemail transcription, crash detection. Even the keyboard is worse in AOSP.
                                                                                                  • rs186 2 months ago
                                                                                                    The intellisense from clangd is much better and faster than the Microsoft C++ extension, if you can set up a compile_commands.json. Although debugging still relies on the Microsoft extension. Although I don't think it's going to be hard to create an extension just for debugging (if it does not already exist?)
                                                                                                    • geertj 2 months ago
                                                                                                      Yes, even on medium sized code bases (few 100K lines), the Microsoft C++ extension gets extremely slow. Clangd is a much better option.
                                                                                                      • senderista 2 months ago
                                                                                                        Not just faster, I have never been able to get jump to declaration/definition/references to work reliably without clangd.
                                                                                                        • starkrights 2 months ago
                                                                                                          Is there a ‘right’ (or simple/direct) way to generate this using various buildchains? I remember setting this up so I could use Sublime with intellisense a while ago, and finding that I could only get it to generate with a specific compiler chain on windows (ninja I think?)

                                                                                                          Minor annoyance to have to make my c make project generate buildchain files for a compiler I’m not using & copy that file into my project root to commit it- unrelated to the original question, but also annoying that I have to manually generate it every time I make significant codebase changes.

                                                                                                          • TuxSH 2 months ago
                                                                                                            > and finding that I could only get it to generate with a specific compiler chain on windows (ninja I think?)

                                                                                                            Yes, you're right about that.

                                                                                                            Basically, it boils down to "use CMake with Ninja/Makefile" (even if you don't strictly have to, you could write a script that creates the json yourself, for example). When cross-compiling, you may also have to whitelist compiler paths.

                                                                                                            Add -DCMAKE_EXPORT_COMPILE_COMMANDS=ON as command-line arg during the config step, or add the equivalent "set" call to your CMakeLists.txt, restart clangd (ctrl+p, restart clangd), and you're good to go.

                                                                                                            There are minor annoyances when cross-compiling (it using clang -- some compile options are incompatible and need to be removed in global user config, and it not extracting default compiler defines from compilers) but they are very easily worked around

                                                                                                            I more or less use this as config: https://gist.github.com/TuxSH/0220d1235dace77f82738c96718011...

                                                                                                          • nomad41 2 months ago
                                                                                                            I've had the opposite experience with weird C++ projects from some customers that use external toolchains. For some reason even creating the compile_commands.json file with Bear doesn't work, while the proprietary Intellisense extension works out of the box without any configuration.
                                                                                                            • Rucadi 2 months ago
                                                                                                              Lldb and rr (midas) have vscode extensions
                                                                                                              • IshKebab 2 months ago
                                                                                                                I agree. It's way better. You can use the CodeLLDB extension for debugging.

                                                                                                                https://github.com/vadimcn/codelldb

                                                                                                                • Melonai 2 months ago
                                                                                                                  There are other third-party extensions which rely on the Microsoft C++ one. I have recently ran into this problem with my VSCodium setup.
                                                                                                                • kstrauser 2 months ago
                                                                                                                  And this is why I'm using Zed today. I'm deadly serious. I was a huge proponent of VSCode at first but I've soured on it, and now I don't want my workflow to depend on it in any way.

                                                                                                                  Awesome software, but I don't trust the upstream org further than I must.

                                                                                                                  • int_19h 2 months ago
                                                                                                                    I actually worked on VSCode (Python support specifically) at Microsoft in the past, and seeing this kind of thing frustrates me to no end.

                                                                                                                    The worst part is all the VSCode is still promoted to developers as open source, even though official extensions increasingly aren't, with bits and pieces gradually replaced with closed code. It's not that closed source is necessarily bad, but when F/OSS popularity is milked for marketing purposes while stuff like this happens, it just feels very wrong. If you want to be closed source for reasons, fine, but be honest and upfront about it.

                                                                                                                    • VyseofArcadia 2 months ago
                                                                                                                      There's a special place in hell for orgs that do this. Google has been doing the same thing with Android.

                                                                                                                      IIRC Apple at least has always been fairly clear and consistent with what bits of its software are open and what bits aren't. To my knowledge they haven't been breaking off chunks of Darwin and closing them. (Although if I'm wrong do correct me.)

                                                                                                                    • hobs 2 months ago
                                                                                                                      Reminds when I excited to see Azure Data Studio adding Postgres support, but it was actually a binary extension with no ability to fix or change anything and no way for other useful databases to extend and use the functionality; they had spent all the time and effort to make sure nobody could do something like it but them.

                                                                                                                      Weird, ADS is dead and nobody spent any time on it, I wonder why.

                                                                                                                      • bitbasher 2 months ago
                                                                                                                        So, you hopped from one walled garden to another?

                                                                                                                        I don't mean that in a mean way, but have you considered another editor that is more open?

                                                                                                                        • hnlmorg 2 months ago
                                                                                                                          I’ve just installed Zed based on your recommendation and I’m already impressed.

                                                                                                                          It’s fast, the interface is distraction free and it already has support for all the languages I use regularly. Even Terraform support, which is notoriously hard to get right, is better than the current “best” in VSCode.

                                                                                                                          Thanks for the recommendation

                                                                                                                          • kstrauser 2 months ago
                                                                                                                            Glad you like it! It’s a proper native app (no Electron) and super responsive. I truly enjoy using it. And yes, the language support (via Treesitter and LSPs) is fantastic.
                                                                                                                          • eviks 2 months ago
                                                                                                                            Does Zed have a comparable C++ extension?
                                                                                                                            • dharmab 2 months ago
                                                                                                                              Zed uses tree-sitter and LSP; most popular languages do not require extensions, and extensions for niche languages are shockingly easy to write. Literally 100-300 lines of Rust boilerplate and around 300 lines of config boilerplate, with minimal maintenance/upkeep.

                                                                                                                              https://zed.dev/docs/languages/cpp

                                                                                                                              • wolvesechoes 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                Many words to state that it doesn't.
                                                                                                                            • notnmeyer 2 months ago
                                                                                                                              zed is veerrrry good. i really appreciate the clean ui compared to vscode and its ilk. don’t love the pricing they just announced though. i don’t mind paying for my tools, but it not being unlimited scares me off slightly.
                                                                                                                              • dharmab 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                I think it's totally fair for them to charge for an optional feature that requires a cloud service. And if you don't like their pricing you can use a different provider, including self-hosted ones.
                                                                                                                              • 3eb7988a1663 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                Just installed it, but it put a terrible taste in my mouth where the IDE has a hamburger menu instead of showing the file menu. This is meant to be a professional, technical application used on a desktop. Glad some designer made 150 pixels look clean instead of busy, but now I am reduced to an extra click any time I need to do something.

                                                                                                                                Minor grievance, sure, but it it not an encouraging sign for their priorities.

                                                                                                                                • kstrauser 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                  Agreed, but at least that's an optional feature you can choose to pay for if you want to. And if that changes, I'll drop it and head back to a Free editor.
                                                                                                                                • sureglymop 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                  Zed is nice but I still prefer vs codes configuration scheme. Was working on a web/frontend project a while ago and had honestly a very hard time to set up Zed to do everything from formatting to linting and syntax highlighting correctly. Meanwhile in vscode I had to install 3 extensions, enable them for the workspace and they were already aware of each other and seamlessly worked together.

                                                                                                                                  I also think it's a mixed opportunity not to allow for something like Lua or a Lisp to configure Zed in. It's very promising but I'm not willing to switch just yet.

                                                                                                                                  • exceptione 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                    Even better: Theia.

                                                                                                                                    It supports most vscode extensions right out of the box.

                                                                                                                                    https://theia-ide.org/

                                                                                                                                    • 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                      • 0rzech 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                        Supports without auto updating them and along with other annoyances: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43793016 . VSCodium [1] has much better UX than Theia IDE, IMHO.

                                                                                                                                        [1] https://vscodium.com/

                                                                                                                                        • bobajeff 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                          Yeah I've just tried Theia. Vscodium is still the way to go. I just wish they had answers for issues like running extensions that depend on cpptools. I managed to work around it by installing an old version of cpptools from before the nag prompt that checks you're running it in vscode was added.

                                                                                                                                          Zed is almost a good solution but like most they are missing most of vscodes markdown editing features*. Also, right now there's no way to hide the sign in and ai buttons from the UI.

                                                                                                                                          * https://code.visualstudio.com/Docs/languages/markdown

                                                                                                                                      • rs186 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                        So how do you get intellisense and debug C++ in Zed?
                                                                                                                                        • dharmab 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                          There's a great doc on exactly how Zed handles syntax and intellisense-style completions: https://zed.dev/docs/configuring-languages

                                                                                                                                          Debugging isn't in yet, but is actively being worked on and planned for public release before 1.0: https://github.com/zed-industries/zed/issues/5065, there's an active channel in their Discord discussing the development of the feature.

                                                                                                                                          • pests 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                            That first link doesn’t really explain anything about syntax/autocomplete. It’s just about config options per language (formatted, linter, lsp) but I guess I was expecting something else?
                                                                                                                                            • AbuAssar 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                              Will they use DAP?
                                                                                                                                            • yoyohello13 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                              clangd is an LSP. You can use it in any editor with LSP support https://clangd.llvm.org/
                                                                                                                                              • hu3 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                Why isn't Cursor using this by default then?
                                                                                                                                              • LoganDark 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                Zed uses open-source language servers. It just doesn't rely on proprietary extensions.

                                                                                                                                                I actually worked a bunch on the language server logic in Zed trying to get a bunch of it to work on Windows. All I have to say about that is: ugh.

                                                                                                                                              • sitkack 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                Zed is a for profit company, aren't they just going to go down the same route?
                                                                                                                                                • lysace 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                  Still using VSCode, but you kind of know that's it's going to go sour eventually. It is Microsoft. :/

                                                                                                                                                  I figure e.g. emacs will always be there when that happens.

                                                                                                                                                  All I need is a Github Copilot clone and a good code search feature.

                                                                                                                                                  Oh and automatic reloads of open but unchanged buffers when switching between git branches.

                                                                                                                                                  Oh and the ssh remote extension.

                                                                                                                                                  • znpy 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                    Emacs user here, have used vscode in the past.

                                                                                                                                                    Yep, vscode is more intuitive.

                                                                                                                                                    However emacs is mostly the kind of thing you dedicate a couple of months of discomfort and enjoy for the rest of your life. Quite literally.

                                                                                                                                                    Spending some money on the “mastering emacs” book (https://www.masteringemacs.org/) is worth imho.

                                                                                                                                                    Bonus point: little by little you start enjoying doing more stuff in emacs. It’s a meme, but it’s true.

                                                                                                                                                    • kstrauser 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                      I second all this. I'm using Zed today, but I was using Emacs for 20 years, then Sublime/VSCode/etc. for a few, and now Zed. If it disappears, I'm going right back to Emacs without a moment's hesitation.

                                                                                                                                                      And "Mastering Emacs" is brilliant.

                                                                                                                                                      • lysace 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                        I spent 25 years using emacs before vscode (1997 to 2022-ish). I didn't go deep, I mostly just enjoyed the core parts of emacs + ccmode. I don't enjoy LISP but I still enjoy emacs, if that makes any sense.

                                                                                                                                                        MS made some very real and very usable innovations. Emacs hackers/maintainers would be wise to copy them, like I'm sure Microsoft copied things from emacs.

                                                                                                                                                        It's a bit like the UI aspect of the browser wars. Everyone wins when good things are cloned and then iteratively improved upon.

                                                                                                                                                        • rurban 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                          And with copilot.el you get access to all models, not just some. I'm using Claude
                                                                                                                                                          • pjmlp 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                            I dedicated my time between 1995 and 2005 as my main UNIX editor, and don't miss installing Emacs.
                                                                                                                                                          • kstrauser 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                            > All I need is a Github Copilot clone

                                                                                                                                                            I'm using https://github.com/copilot-emacs/copilot.el

                                                                                                                                                            > good code search feature.

                                                                                                                                                            project-find-regexp is a nice start.

                                                                                                                                                            > Oh and automatic reloads of open but unchanged buffers when switching between git branches.

                                                                                                                                                            (global-auto-revert-mode t)

                                                                                                                                                            > Oh and the ssh remote extension.

                                                                                                                                                            I haven't compared it to Tramp.

                                                                                                                                                            • bryanlarsen 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                              > All I need is a Github Copilot clone

                                                                                                                                                              or you could just use copilot through copilot.el

                                                                                                                                                              > and a good code search feature.

                                                                                                                                                              Like through helm or ivy?

                                                                                                                                                              > Oh and automatic reloads of open but unchanged buffers when switching between git branches.

                                                                                                                                                              My emacs does that, and I don't think I did anything special to get it.

                                                                                                                                                              > Oh and the ssh remote extension.

                                                                                                                                                              like tramp?

                                                                                                                                                              • pjmlp 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                Many of us are perfectly fine with commercial software, we have been into the other side and got tired of the religion.
                                                                                                                                                                • mschild 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                  I think a lot of people don't have a problem with commercial software, but rather with the disingenuous behavior that some companies display.

                                                                                                                                                                  VSCode was/is often touted as open source and Microsoft are using it to present themselves as community loving until MS sees an opportunity to extract some money/hinder the competition.

                                                                                                                                                                  In comparison, Jetbrains is transparent with their offerings and what you get. There is in my opinion a clear difference in how they operate and how they are perceived.

                                                                                                                                                                • globular-toast 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                  Warning, though: the older you get, the harder it will be to learn emacs. The best time to learn it is yesterday. The second best is today.
                                                                                                                                                                  • dharmab 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                    You're almost describing Zed to a T.
                                                                                                                                                                    • lysace 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                      Just played with it. You're right. Thanks!
                                                                                                                                                                    • baq 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                      vscode find in files is literally ripgrep FYI.
                                                                                                                                                                  • concerndc1tizen 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                    Do you guys ever feel tired of 'sounding the alarm'?

                                                                                                                                                                    I feel like I've been doing that for years on a wide range of topics, but every time it's like you're talking to cult members.

                                                                                                                                                                    How do you break through to people? People say things like "you're overthinking it", "that's never going to happen", "I don't care because I like using VSCode and not alternatives".

                                                                                                                                                                    Is it individualism? That they only consider their own narrow short-term interests, and have become blind to collective problems?

                                                                                                                                                                    • jeroenhd 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                      What's the problem for people who just use VSCode, exactly? The software still does what people want for free, which is what 99% of VS Code users use the software for anyway. People who care about open source-ness have their own extensions to replace their proprietary C++ tooling, or they can use an open source alternative like Eclipse.

                                                                                                                                                                      I remember when basic features that come for free in VS Code cost thousands of dollars per developer, back when "update" meant "buy the new version (again)". I swear, people forgot how good they have it.

                                                                                                                                                                      The change that made the Microsoft addon incompatible with VS Code forks happened four years ago.

                                                                                                                                                                      • mort96 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                        For people who see VS Code as just a decent gratis text editor, there's no problem.

                                                                                                                                                                        For people who care, to some degree, about using an open source tool, for whom the marketing that VS Code is open source played a role in their choice of using it, it should matter. And it matters that other projects (think Platform IO and more) choose VS Code as a platform to build on top of, and they get away with it because "it's open source".

                                                                                                                                                                        • wolvesechoes 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                          Then people should stop caring about open source, care about free software instead, and do not forget that it is free-as-in-freedom, so they should still pay for their tools.

                                                                                                                                                                          Otherwise keep hoping that your corporate or VC funded SaaS "disruptor" master will continue to be nice to you

                                                                                                                                                                      • npteljes 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                        I'm at that tired stage right now as well. The way I read the title: "Company did company thing". Absolutely no surprise. The question is always a when, and similarly, I don't expect this current thing to last forever either: maybe they rethink their decision.

                                                                                                                                                                        Also, very often, the feelings don't correspond to the reality or the aftermath of the decision-making at all. For example, X seems to be hugely upsetting, but life generally moves on, and people are not that touched actually, as much as they protest to the opposite. This happens pro and contra issues as well; for example, people might hate Windows' latest X bullshit, but they won't change their OS in the end, or, pro example, people might feel like that stand by local production, but they won't actually buy local, because it costs more.

                                                                                                                                                                        What we are very blind to are problems that don't have immediate negative feedback. Comfort and security are huge motivators, especially when people have to let go of them. PR and propaganda (same thing really) uses this, among others, very effectively.

                                                                                                                                                                        • anon7000 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                          It's tradeoffs all the way down. VSCode remains one of the best intro editors, because it's free, has next to zero learning curve, and a robust extension ecosystem. I mean, what even is the argument here? That it's not completely open in every possible way? Do we feel so strongly about the heaps of paid IDEs that are completely closed source?
                                                                                                                                                                          • kstrauser 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                            > Do we feel so strongly about the heaps of paid IDEs that are completely closed source?

                                                                                                                                                                            Me, personally? No, because they're honest about it. I use BBEdit and Nova frequently on my Mac. Those are as closed source as it gets. They never pretend otherwise, though. You pay your money and you know what you're getting. VSCode tries really hard to appear to be open source, as long as you're willing to ignore the million places where they aren't. (Python devs: are you using PyLance? I'm talking to you.)

                                                                                                                                                                            And ironically, those closed editors seem to play more nicely with the ecosystem as a whole. Neither BBEdit nor Nova have ever tried to talk me into installing closed plugins, and the same plugins that work with them work great in Emacs and Zed.

                                                                                                                                                                            If I go to one bar that charged $5 per beer, and another that gives free beer but makes you rent single-use mugs for $5, even though the end price is identical, the rental bar's going to annoy me horrendously. Just admit what it is and let people judge on their own merits.

                                                                                                                                                                          • eYrKEC2 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                            That's what "word to the wise" means -- you can't tell most people __anything__.

                                                                                                                                                                            The opening of Proverbs has:

                                                                                                                                                                            1:5. Let the wise hear and increase in learning[...]

                                                                                                                                                                            • 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                              • wolvesechoes 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                Man, it is just a code editor.

                                                                                                                                                                                Tech bubble remains tech bubble, when common, non-tech people are much more screwed, yet nothing is being done except saying "lol, just install Linux".

                                                                                                                                                                                • hedora 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                  I just use the OSS vs code builds at home. (Work uses vscode).

                                                                                                                                                                                  Ever since I got remote mode working, I haven’t noticed any missing functionality I care about. (I also haven’t tried installing extensions for the pile of commercial services work uses, and that I wouldn’t pay for anyway.)

                                                                                                                                                                                  Edit: Since cursor now has near infinite VC money, perhaps they should fund a few open source devs to work on those forks. Why should they get a free ride?

                                                                                                                                                                                  • beeflet 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                    I think the problem with "sounding the alarm" is that it's not a tsunami that will immediately wipe out everything, it's more of a slow flood. The business strategy is boiling the frog.
                                                                                                                                                                                    • Guthur 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                      I think ultimately we're mostly just not as clever as we think we are, which I think unfortunately we must accept.

                                                                                                                                                                                      Where this has become increasingly problematic is rampant materialism and corporatism.

                                                                                                                                                                                      If the only real motivator in town, especially for the powerful, is material gain then there is nothing to constrain wanton greed. This becomes even more pronounced with corporations because their overtly stated purpose is not but greed, so even if the individual actors have some transcend moral compass they will be in conflict to their programmed imperative to "do their job".

                                                                                                                                                                                      Currently many of the powerful are materialistic and materialism can bring worldly power. Other political paradigms may come to the fore but as it takes a form and gravity it will likely come into some dialectic conflict with the prevailing materialistic status quo. That may be a peaceful resolution, but I'd not be certain of that.

                                                                                                                                                                                      • yoyohello13 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                        I’ve just lost all hope and have rock bottom expectations. Probably not the healthiest coping mechanism.
                                                                                                                                                                                        • pas 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                          find one/your community and contribute there?
                                                                                                                                                                                          • yoyohello13 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                            You know, you’re right. I’m going to try this.
                                                                                                                                                                                        • tbrownaw 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                          Meh. If it does eventually go away, it wouldn't be the first time I've switched editors. Which turns out to not actually be all that hard to do.

                                                                                                                                                                                          > Is it individualism? That they only consider their own narrow short-term interests, and have become blind to collective problems?

                                                                                                                                                                                          What collective problem, that someone might have to unexpectedly burn a weekend writing a new editor? That {emacs|vim} isn't popular enough? That people might have to go install openjdk in order to start using eclipse?

                                                                                                                                                                                          • mosura 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                            And when it turns out you were right the whole time they will pretend no one saw it coming and blame you for the problem.

                                                                                                                                                                                            You just have to let go of things you have no real influence over.

                                                                                                                                                                                            • concerndc1tizen 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                              Indeed! "No one saw it coming" is the most ridiculous thing I've been hearing for the last couple of months regarding global politics. They've literally been predicting and warning against the rise of these (political) issues for 20 years.

                                                                                                                                                                                              And in the same sense regarding VSCode, and the VC fueled takeover of the open source ecosystem; the old guard warned against it, that's why they promoted GPL as critically necessary.

                                                                                                                                                                                          • electroly 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                            I love Cursor deeply but choosing to be a VSCode fork instead of a VSCode extension was a fatal choice. In the long term I think they either have to retool as an extension or they will go out of business. You can only publicly flout Microsoft's licenses for so long while making a competitor to one of their AAA products.
                                                                                                                                                                                            • jillesvangurp 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                              They are reselling an editor they did not make with a small extension that uses AI models they do not make.

                                                                                                                                                                                              I don't think they'll survive very long as it seems that they don't actually have that many things that differentiate them. And there is a lot of competition.

                                                                                                                                                                                              • datadrivenangel 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                Apparently VSCode doesn't allow extensions to do the same amount of integration as the Cursor people want...
                                                                                                                                                                                                • londons_explore 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Extensions aren't sandboxed... You can literally do anything.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Maybe against the store rules tho, dunno.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • carlhjerpe 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Within the the APIs you realistically can access and use. Just because something is technically possible doesn't mean it's technically feasible
                                                                                                                                                                                                • baq 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                  They wouldn’t take off if they weren’t a vscode fork. They may die a heroic death now having kickstarted the proper AI IDE. (Copilot was first and it was… nice? then it sucked so bad everyone jumped ship, remember? MS needed that kick in the balls.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                  • hyperdimension 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Off-topic: I initially thought you misspelled 'flaunt,' but 'flout' is indeed the correct word to use. Nice!
                                                                                                                                                                                                    • anon7000 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Eh, I mean it's a fork. They can keep updating their fork forever. Reality is they want complete control over the product, and VS Code doesn't expose everything in the extension API.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      • electroly 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                        Sure, but they depend on a bunch of Microsoft proprietary extensions (that they can't fork) that ban usage in VSCode forks, and they knew this when they made the choice. This was an inevitable outcome from Microsoft's side. I'm sure they want to remain in business more than they want complete control over the product.
                                                                                                                                                                                                        • jeroenhd 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                          > they depend on a bunch of Microsoft proprietary extensions

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Microsoft still holds the crown when it comes to C# debugging, but for most proprietary MS extensions there are free, open source alternatives. They may not be as polished as the ones Microsoft actually pays people to maintain, but I don't see why Cursor would actually depend on any of the proprietary ones if you're not using it for C# dev (and even there competitors like Jetbrains have figured out a way to make it work).

                                                                                                                                                                                                    • pjmlp 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                      People not using VSCode on purpose, based on forks, are surprised product owner isn't happy with their license violations.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      It is like when the same folks act surprised, after Google does something to their Chrome and Android forks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Don't want big tech sponsored products?

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Pay open source developers, so that they can actually make a living of their work.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • AlienRobot 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                        I don't understand the problem. It sounds like the C/C++ extension was proprietary. This sort of thing can always happen when you rely on proprietary software. Make an open source C/C++ extension and you wouldn't have this problem.
                                                                                                                                                                                                        • jeroenhd 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                          >It sounds like the C/C++ extension was proprietary

                                                                                                                                                                                                          The extension itself it MIT licensed (so could be hosted on the open VSIX store, if it wasn't down because the Eclipse project is suffering from server issues right now). In theory any fork can patch out the check and re-release the extension.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          However, the extension packages some binaries that are proprietary, and have been since about four years ago. People could re-implement those and re-release an open version of the extension, but you can't just (legally) take the proprietary binaries and ship them if you don't have the license.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Open alternatives actually exist, but their quality and ease of configuration depends on your use case. In large projects the proprietary extension seems to be worse from what I've read.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          • zzo38computer 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, that is what I thought, too. (It would be a good idea to have a open source C/C++ extension anyways, whether or not the proprietary extension stops working with non-Microsoft code.) (Maybe there is such extension; I don't know; I don't use VS Code and VS Codium etc.)
                                                                                                                                                                                                            • MelodyUwU 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                              clangd, that is the extension. a lot better than the prioprietary trash microsoft pulls onto the store. open source, too.
                                                                                                                                                                                                          • kentonv 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                            The clangd extension is better anyway, and is open source.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            The Microsoft C++ extension is not open source; not sure what people were expecting here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            • int_19h 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                              It's one thing for it to not be open source.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              It's another thing for its license to explicitly prohibit its use with any other IDE, even if it's API-compatible, even if it's literally exactly VSCode recompiled with another name.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              And it's yet another thing to proactively insert checks for that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              • surajrmal 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Why? If I listed an app on the google play store but intentionally limited it from working when installed by alternative means (eg someone relisting it on an alternative app store without my permission) would that be problematic? Why is this different?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                • flufluflufluffy 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  People want to be given everything for free, to be able to put the absolute least amount of effort into the code they write, in the name of “open source.”
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • int_19h 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Because interoperability is good, and things that actively hamper it are therefore bad.
                                                                                                                                                                                                              • chenzhekl 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                I don't like MS, either. BUT, let's be clear. No one is to obligated to work for free on OSS, not even big companies like MS. They have the right to constraint them to work on their own platforms. If you don't like it, you should fork the previous unconstrained versions or develop your own C/C++ add-on rather than complaining that MS stopped supporting your favorite extension.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                • mort96 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  "It's not illegal for them to do this bad thing" is such a common defense of companies doing bad things, as if it was the legality and not the ethics that was being discussed. I don't get it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • johnnyanmac 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If Microsoft is gonna keep trying to enshitty their apps with unmasked for AI pop-ups that will always come back and even go so far to throw ads in at an OS level: yes, I will feel at least a bit entitled to some "free work" for taking hours of my time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I sure do wish my industry didn't need windows. I'd happily go to Linux and never look back.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • ryao 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Am I the only person using tmux+vim+cscope+bash+gcc as a development environment? I do not see the need for these GUIs. I also can develop software from just about anywhere as I only need to SSH into a machine with these things (+git) installed. There are no hostile license terms either.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    As an added bonus, this setup is excellent for pair programming. Just use voice chat via signal or anything else and have the other person connect to the same tmux session over SSH.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    That said, if you must use a GUI based development environment, I know of people happily using netbeans. I am not sure why anyone would use Microsoft’s tools for this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • g19fanatic 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      My dev environment is very similar (no cscope but ctags yes)! tmux + vim + bash + gcc

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Vim is so powerful, most people only know how to edit 1 file at a time and how to exit vim... My typical dev environment has over 10k+ open buffers in 1 vim instance. you want to know what "just works" in this environment? vimgrep w/ ## to find anything across these open buffers AND built in Ctrl+P autocomplete... Get good with splits and tabs inside vim and you'll never be limited... it just works.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • carlhjerpe 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I use helix editor, but I wouldn't say my editor needs are that great, I don't "write software at scale". I mostly write infrastructure automation in , terraform, Nix, python and YAML pretty much.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        For more "developer" focused professions I bet using tools tailored for their needs suits them better, I recently wrote some C# for some Windows software in Visual Studio in a Windows VM and the ootb experience is pretty good.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You're not the only one, but you're probably a small minority with your DE setup.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • cozzyd 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          vim + tmux + tig for me
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • kurtis_reed 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > I am not sure why anyone would use Microsoft’s tools for this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Really?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • EasyMark 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              While I use emacs these days for my embedded and "simple" web gui work, I quite miss visual studio, especially the debugger. I'm not sure why everyone acts like Microsoft tools are so bad. I dislike microsoft for their crappy corporate attitude but I quite liked their dev and debug tools, thought they did seem stuck in c89 for far far too long. I was doing c++ gui work along with signal processing backend and it was always a good experience.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • elashri 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            At least I know one alternative that is on bar (even better according to some people) for the C++ MS extension. What I am worried more about is the Jupyter Notebook MS extensions. I cannot find a suitable alternative and sometimes I am not being able to use it on windsurf/VSCodium (manually installing vsix). I am surprised by that taking into consideration how Jupyter notebooks relevance in data science and ML.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • kazinator 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              This is just Microsoft being classic Microsoft.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • Yizahi 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Good to see some of these neural network people actually pay for their real infractions. Granted, this time it was a banal competitor action, but still nice. Just because a license isn't enforced, doesn't make it safe to violate.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • shmerl 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  FYI, neovim has LSP and DAP support, as well as a bunch of other editors.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Spivak 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    neovim is a truly beautiful piece of software that is impossible to undersell. It has made vim into a full feature complete IDE for every language finally with a good editor :P
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • shmerl 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      100%. I switched to it to get true color themes support in the terminal which vim didn't have at the time, but I stayed with it because of all the extensibility for features like above.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • tcoff91 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Neovim is a godsend, I would be in despair without it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • shmerl 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I learned a bunch of Lua because of it :)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • EasyMark 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I've been thinking of that but nvim + lazyvim is so nice and easy as a text editor. I just need to figure out how to keep the shell plugin from thinking it's smarter than me and linting every single time
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • -__---____-ZXyw 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Protesilaos in this piece https://protesilaos.com/codelog/2019-08-11-why-emacs-switch/ has the following closing paragraphs:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "The gist is that you should be learning by doing. It takes patience and dedication. Study and reuse other people’s code, but do not blindly copy-paste things: patterns of behaviour you do not understand will quickly accumulate, resulting in a potentially fragmented, frustrating experience.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The key is to not expect instant gratification. I know, this is how most of the world works these days. Thankfully, Emacs runs contrary to the zeitgeist: it caters to the user who cares deeply about the quality and functionality of their tools."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      From my reading of the computer history books, it seems like there was a time when this sort of dedication to taking things slow and investing time into your tools and moving steadily towards mastery of all aspects of your craft were seen as de rigueur, part of the game.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Moments like this, you want to imagine that some people will turn back to that. I guess when the next big thing comes along with the hype and marketing and "ease-of-use", we'll be off on the same cycle again, though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • grougnax 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The Microsoft Intellisense is really bad compared to the open-source one clangd, anyway.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • jonstewart 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The hilarious part is that old fart C++ programmers (like me) have been the ones most leery of VS Code. Microsoft’s gonna Microsoft, ‘specially with compilers.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • kstrauser 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "Don't be paranoid", they said.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "That's ancient history", they said.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "Lucy will hold the football this time for sure", they said.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • bryancoxwell 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              What do you prefer to VSCode? Just started a job where I’ll be working in C++ and looking for alternatives
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • jonstewart 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Well, VisualStudio for one. If you’re targeting Windows, you should consider it. VS Code feels slow to me in a way VS doesn’t.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I spent most of the past ~fifteen years working in Sublime and just switched between that and the terminal for build and test—not fancy, but then, C++ coding isn’t a speedrun. Sublime is clean, fast, and portable.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                However, dev tooling has advanced so much now that I started learning and using neovim last year so I could take advantage of good syntax highlighting, LSP, and CoPilot. I don’t get enough daily reps to be good at core vi yet (I am a team manager so most of my time is spent asking questions of devs prefixed with “This is a really dumb question, but”) but despite all the techbros who’ve flocked to it I think neovim is pretty good technology and responsive. You can get the tooling features but control UI/UX; for me, I want as much code on the screen as possible, and I especially resent widgets that eat into vertical space. I started with one of the off-the-shelf all-in-one init.lua configs off github, but it was too complicated and I quickly broke things. What’s worked better is going through a video series on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHTeCSVAFNY&pp=0gcJCdgAo7VqN...) and building up the init.lua I want from scratch. As noted, I’m not great with it, especially the normal vim motions, but I’ve learned to get around, it’s fast, I can see my code without a million distracting widgets, and I get the benefit of clangd and CoPilot.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • dustbunny 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I have almost the exact same opinion. In that I hate distracting widgets and things that eat vertical space. I spent about a week getting nvim setup. I write code all day. I still have VSCode day to day because I'm so used to it/fast with it (I use vim motions within it).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  But to me the appeal of nvim is being able to fully remove everything I dislike.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • voidspark 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  CLion or Visual Studio.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Adverblessly 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Not the parent, but for C++ I like QtCreator.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • miohtama 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Good news is that with Cursor AI, they can rewrite their own extension from the scratch in two hours! (:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • chilldsgn 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This is one of the reasons why I switched to CLion for C++ work, and the fact that VS Code and its derivatives was a pain to configure for C++.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I also use PHPStorm for web dev work and we use MS DevOps at work and that extension is unstable, causes IDE errors for me and I will not use MS products just for this one irksome bug. I prefer PHPStorm for my work, because working with PHP in VS Code has never been a great experience for me. I just want my tools to work, I fight with code, I don't want to fight with my tools as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • LinAGKar 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I did give CLion a try when looking for an editor, but last I checked CLion required you to use CMake. Also, JetBrains has it all split up between different IDEs. I need on e that supports C, C++, Python, Cython, Makefile, TypeScript, SCSS, XHTML, Shellscript, JSON and XML in the same program. I also need a program that can do CMake and C, and a program that can do C# (including project management, building, tests etc), Batch script, PowerShell, Shellscript, Cake and YAML, preferably with the same UI. And it needs to work on Linux. VSCode is the only one I've found that can handle that.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • chilldsgn 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That makes perfect sense. I used VS Code extensively for many years, and it kept on frustrating me over and over. I still use it on the odd occasion to edit a small script, but for larger projects, I prefer a dedicated IDE.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • charrondev 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I can also second the usage PHPStorm over VSCode for PHP work. On a team of 10 PHP devs we have just one that prefers VSCode.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • TiredOfLife 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > This is one of the reasons why I switched to CLion for C++ work

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          So jetbrains allows everyone to use their marketplace and their plugins outside their ides?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I can download the jetbrains php extension add it to my own shell and not pay for it?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • EasyMark 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            they never gave us the impression that they were going to. No rug pulling is the name of the game here.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • chilldsgn 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              For both questions, I don't know, probably not. Sorry, I do not understand why you ask this question. Jetbrains' IDEs aren't open source.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • hmry 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > This is one of the reasons why I switched to CLion

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              You switched to CLion because MS does not allow forks of their editor to run MS-developed extensions?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • chilldsgn 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                No, I said ONE of the reasons. I didn't list every single reason, just some that relates to Microsoft.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • trenchgun 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Abandon VSCodium, Return to Emacs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • silverwind 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Glad I'm using Sublime Text.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • Mystery-Machine 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  How is it not open-source?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It's licensed under MIT + VS Marketplace Terms: https://github.com/microsoft/vscode-cpptools?tab=License-1-o...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you fork it and don't use VS Marketplace, it's only MIT. Or am I missing something?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • flufluflufluffy 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  A company simply starts enforcing the terms of use that were being openly violated… what’s the issue here? The article claims it could stifle competition — HUh?! Cursor and others were relying on an extension created by Microsoft, now that they can’t do that, they will have to use an extension created by either themselves or another third party, increasing the use of that alternate extension. This will literally help competition. There was no competition beforehand, ppl just accepted the Microsoft extension with open arms. I really don’t know why everybody’s freaking out. You can always use a different editor, or make your own extension.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • VyseofArcadia 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    A summary:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Embrace

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yay, MS loves open source!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Extend

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Wow, VS Code is so useful!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > Extinguish

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    shocked Pikachu meme

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • deafpolygon 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This is why it would be better for more effort and time spent in developing open source software such as neovim. Then we can always be sure tooling is free.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • titaphraz 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This was foreseen 3 years ago: https://ghuntley.com/fracture/
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • auguzanellato 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        After Pylance, Liveshare, and remote development (which among the others also includes dev containers support) I’m not really that surprised.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • 3np 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • dismalaf 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Why anyone uses anything from Microsoft is beyond me... It's always been clear that VSCode is a trojan horse for MS' EEE strategy. So just don't use MS stuff. Neovim is great, it has great C++ tools. What's the saying? Fool me once...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • zb3 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              People on this site will never ever learn that if a company (especially a profitable one) invests into something and then gives it away for free, there must be some kind of strings attached.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • extr 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I use cursor primarily because of the great tab autocomplete model, but I've always thought it was a bit scummy they blatantly violate the VS Code licensing. Windsurf ships a special version of the pyright extension for this reason. Why doesn't cursor have to play by the rules too?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • eikenberry 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Visual Studio Code (VS Code) no longer works with derivative products such as VS Codium [..]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  They seem to have this backward. Visual Studio Code is a derivative product of VS Codium.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • voxic11 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    No VS Codium is just a alternative build of Visual Studio Code.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > This is a repository of scripts to automatically build Microsoft's vscode repository into freely-licensed binaries with a community-driven default configuration.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • eikenberry 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I thought it was similar to the Chromium/Chrome situation. The naming implied that. But I don't use it and don't follow it that closely. Thanks for the clarification.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • arjunaaqa 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Didn’t this affect Windsurf also ?
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • alfiedotwtf 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Imagine Debian banning Debian forks downloading from their repos…

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If Microsoft are going to call VS Code “open source”, then the marketplace should not be selective on clients. If so, it’s not Open Source, it’s Sparkling Virtue Signalling!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • jeroenhd 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I don't see why they'd need to make the marketplace fully open for their client to be open source. Fedora packages a Flatpak client that downloads proprietary software, but that doesn't make Fedora Sparkling Virtue Signalling.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Hell, Debian's repository now also include proprietary code (https://www.debian.org/vote/2022/vote_003) so binary BLOBs are perfectly capable of doing distro checks and refusing to run on forks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • hexo 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Good. Now it's time to learn from this important lesson.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • DeepYogurt 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                lol
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • Ekaros 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Is this big deal? Surely with help of AI tools you can implement these extensions in matter of days if not hours. And they will be better.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • paxys 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Shitty move (as expected from Microsoft) but I don't see the bigger issue. The beauty of open source is that you can always roll back to a version that did work. Of course continued developement and support from there on is your problem, but Microsoft never owed that to you anyways. Cursor, Codium and all the other VS Code forks have unlimited VC funding and are worth tens of billions of dollars combined. They can afford to contribute back to the ecosystem.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • ndiddy 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The C/C++ extension isn't open source though, and that's where the "doesn't work on forks" DRM is implemented. At least the clangd extension is open source and is a viable alternative.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • paxys 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well if it isn't open source then they should never have been using it in the first place.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • ForOldHack 2 months ago
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          But what happens when you anger the wizards? Some guy gets 4 two liter bottles of Mt Dew, and in a weekend comes up with a better plugin, and open sources it. Look it up on Monday. I just went from VSCode 1.52 to 1.99, and it's not pretty, but... Can someone convince copilot to rat out it's owners and write out a extension that runs cLisp? And all the emacs code runs in VSCode? ( I am saying this so facietously... ).