"Night of the Living Dead" accidentally became public domain (2019)
76 points by edavis 1 month ago | 68 comments- gus_massa 1 month agoNote that it was released in 1968. The law changed since then. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_notice
> For works first published on or after March 1, 1989, use of the copyright notice is optional. Before March 1, 1989, the use of the notice was mandatory on all published works. Omitting the notice on any work first published from January 1, 1978, to February 28, 1989, could have resulted in the loss of copyright protection if corrective steps were not taken within a certain amount of time. Works published before January 1, 1978, are governed by the 1909 Copyright Act. Under that law, if a work was published under the copyright owner's authority without a proper notice of copyright, all copyright protection for that work was permanently lost in the United States.
- dahart 1 month agoThis March 1 1989 date is when the adoption of the Berne Convention took effect in the US, the Berne Convention being what brings the notion that registration should not be required in order to have legal copyright protections. European artists had that protection for ~100 years at that point. Most countries in the world have adopted the Berne Convention, though I learned fairly recently here on HN that the US is still leaving out a few important bits like the right to sue for statutory damages unless copyrights are registered.
- bluGill 1 month agoYou can sue for damages if you don't have the copyright registered in the US. If you have the copyright registered you can sue for triple damages. (according to my mandatory company copyright training, a real lawyer is welcome to correct me)
Edit: I just remembered that you cannot sue if your copyright is not registered - but you don't have to register until just before you sue. Triple damages applies to anything that happens after the copyright is registered, but that is the only difference it makes.
- tzs 1 month agoI think your training may have confused copyrights, patents, and trademarks.
Patent law allows triple damages in the case of willful infringement, and trademark allows triple damages in the case of a counterfeit mark that the infringer knew was counterfeit.
Copyright does have some things that can increase a damage award but there is no real triple damages mechanism.
The plaintiff in copyright gets a choice. They can ask for either:
• The actual damages plus the profits that the infringer made from the infringement. The latter is only to the extent that the infringer's profits exceeded the actual damages.
E.g., if you lost $100k due to infringement and the infringer made $70k your damages would be $100k. But if the infringer made $120k your damages would be $120k (the $100k you lost plus the $20k the infringer made over $100k).
• Statutory damages. It is often very hard to figure out actual damages so the law allows an alternative. If you elect statutory damages the damages range from $750 to $30000 per work infringed. The amount is determined by the judge or jury.
They can be decreased to as low as $200 if the infringer "was not aware and had no reason to believe that his or her acts constituted an infringement of copyright".
They can be increase up to $150000 if the infringement is found to be willful. This is the closest thing copyright as to triple damages.
The way registration affects all of this is:
• You have to register before filing a copyright lawsuit. There are some exceptions such as when a foreign copyright owner wants to sue over a work not published in the US but infringed in the US, due to Berne Convention requirements but we can ignore those here.
• You can only collect statutory damages for infringement that commences after registration (unless the registration is within 3 months of first publication).
• You can collect actual damages and infringer profits from infringement before registration.
- tzs 1 month ago
- bluGill 1 month ago
- dahart 1 month ago
- Malic 1 month agoThe same thing happened to the 1963 movie "Charade" (with Cary Grant and Audrey Hepburn): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charade_(1963_film)#Public-dom...
- mathgeek 1 month ago> an unfortunate error accidentally made it public domain
Never have I been so torn on my opinion of whether or not this was truly “unfortunate”.
- johnea 1 month agoI'm not torn at all, I would say going to public domain is exactly what should have happened.
Here in SoCal, our past senator cosponsored the DMCA (aka Disney Millennium Copyright Act) to benefit her long time contributor.
Once authors are dead, works should enter public domain.
The "industry" has pushed back this basic principle for many years.
I often say, the only reason "classical music" is even a known thing is because it's not subject to copyright, and orchestras can perform it royalty free.
There will be no such thing with modern media...
- johnea 1 month ago
- nico 1 month agoIt’s wild that copyright lasts this long (life of author + 70 years after death)
- hinkley 1 month agoWho's the leader of the club that's made for you and me?
M I C K E Y, M O U S E
- hinkley 1 month ago
- wodenokoto 1 month agoDid the distributor really have sufficient ownership of the movie to release a minor altered version into the public domain?
I remember a long time ago a language study startup called smart.fm released their material on RSS under a copy left license. Problem was that they didn’t mean to give it away, but worse, they didn’t have the license to relicense the material like that.
I kinda wonder where that puts redistribution of that material.
- sumtechguy 1 month ago> Did the distributor really have sufficient ownership of the movie to release a minor altered version into the public domain?
Probably yes. The way movies are financed is quite the byzantine joy ride if you want to look into it. With random tax incentives depending on where you make it. To finance groups that get control of entire regions. There are quite a large number of videos from independent filmmakers on what is going on. You hear things like 'Disney lost XYZ on a movie'. More than likely they lost someone else's money making sure they recoup first. Like for example the OG star wars has yet to recoup. Probably for some segments of the corporate structure that was created to make that movie that is probably true. Hollywood accounting is a huge mess. So yeah he probably signed off particular distribution rights to get the money to make/distribute the thing.
Many TV show pilots probably fall into the same issue too. I have not dug into it too much but the original pilot of star trek did not have one until a re-release decades later with an obvious digital watermark.
- ralferoo 1 month agoI guess stuff like this would have already been thrashed out at the time, but it strikes me that if a mistake by a third party could invalidate copyright, it'd have been trivial to end the copyright on anything by releasing an unauthorised version without a copyright notice.
I guess it's complicated because the first release with this title was absent the copyright notice, but the article also says that prints existed with the previous title and a copyright notice, so if they were distributed at all, it'd seem to be a slam dunk that it'd be covered by copyright on the original title and the retitled copy without copyright notices was infringing.
- sidewndr46 1 month agoIt isn't the case that a third party mistake can invalidate copyright. But if a third party does so & other groups start treating it as public domain it is on the actual rightsholder to prove they still hold the copyright.
In the case of a self published book, it's pretty obvious. In the case a movie production or otherwise, it gets difficult really fast. Throw in some corporate mergers, acquisitions, & bankruptcies and now you're looking at paying a small team of legal professionals to do research to construct a paper trail for ownership. If the work in question is valuable, obviously it gets done.
In the modern era there is a basically endless stream of video games from a 2-3 decades back where the ownership is completely unclear. The actual video game release rights might be held by one shell company, the video game source code could be held by another group (or even the original author, depending on how lazy people were), and the assets themselves might be held by another group if it was a "branded" or similar content.
- sidewndr46 1 month ago
- cobbzilla 1 month agoIt wasn’t a relicense, the copyright was never validly filed (date was missing), so the copyright was never registered. Only registered copyrights can be enforced in the US. No registration, no enforcement rights. Or at least that’s my layman’s understanding, happy to be corrected.
- kmoser 1 month ago> This error occurred after the film's title was changed from its original moniker Night of the Flesh Eaters. Prints with that title contained the copyright notice, but when new prints were created using the title Night of the Living Dead, the copyright notice was forgotten.
This begs the question: if the original movie was copyrighted, how does releasing the same movie with a different title make the new re-release considered a new (not-yet-copyrighted) work? I thought the copyright protection of the original would extend to the renamed version, since they're 99.99% the same. Theoretically, does changing even one frame necessitate a new copyright?
- bluGill 1 month agoRemember we need to talk about law as it existed back when this happened not the law today. Back then you didn't get copyright protection unless you registered with the copyright office (and a few other things that I'm not quite sure of - none relevant to the law today). So the copyright was never registered, likely because the distributor was expected to register it and they failed to do their job. There might be a lawsuit against the distributor for breach of contract, but it wouldn't be a copyright lawsuit.
Today things are much easier, if you create something it is copyright. If you want to sue you need to register, but you can register at anytime. If you register you can sue for triple damages for anything that happens after you register, but you can still get damages for things that happened before your register. (The above is my understanding of the law, but I'm not a lawyer)
- bluGill 1 month ago
- sidewndr46 1 month agoThis is not the case. If registration were required in the US, 99.999999% of software ever written would be effectively public domain.
- toast0 1 month agoThe copyright rules have changed. Registration and a proper notice was required when this film was published.
Now, fixing a creative work in a tangible medium is all that's required. When does the copyright expire? Nobody will know, because there's no year of publication listed, and no author listed to find out when they die. (Even if there is an author listed by name, maybe it was me; maybe it was the Pulitzer Prize winning author)
- cobbzilla 1 month ago99.9999999% of software written is not published, it’s covered by trade secret law. Copyright only applies to published works. Look into what happens legally when source code is leaked and published.
- toast0 1 month ago
- kmoser 1 month ago
- sumtechguy 1 month ago
- teddyh 1 month ago> Night of the Living Dead's copyright snafu ended up costing him untold amounts of money in both the short and long term.
This has strong vibes of “If only Linus Torvalds had charged for Linux, he would have been a rich man today.”. It does not work that way.
> Somewhat ironically though, it's Night of the Living Dead's freely available nature that helped it become the revered classic it is today, as easy access and constant TV airings ensured that more and more people saw the film.
It’s not “ironic”, it’s completely expected. If it was only an old black-and-white movie, still subject to copyright, today the movie would be a historical footnote at best.
- Ecgberht 1 month ago> If it was only an old black-and-white movie, still subject to copyright, today the movie would be a historical footnote at best.
That's a very ungenerous take. The film is very good and was revolutionary for it's time. Check out other horror films from the same era and the tone is completely different. Night of the Living Dead changed what horror films could be.
And there's plenty of old black and white movies still in copyright that are highly regarded as classics so I don't know what that has to do with anything.
- derbOac 1 month agoI share your perspective; my guess is if it was copyrighted it probably would have had the same status. My guess is it would have been distributed relatively cheaply with the same outcome.
However, I also think it's reasonable to posit it might not have attained the same status had it not gone out of copyright. Easy access can really affect awareness and buzz around films, especially in certain genres like horror.
Horror films were already shifting in tone by 1968. Psycho was a 1960 release, for example, and The Birds was released in 1963. Carnival of Souls has a similar aesthetic as Night of the Living Dead and was released in 1962.
- dfxm12 1 month agoThe movie invented the zombie genre as we know it today, was made by George Romero, which is a credential in an of itself, and Duane Jones' performance as Ben would stand out today almost as much as it did back then. These points, along with the film being poignant and entertaining as hell would ensure that generation after generation would would keep coming back. Remember, lots of films are out of copyright. Not a lot of such films made as much money or have the staying power as Night of the Living Dead.
On top of this, genre films in general, and horror specifically, if anything, have rabid fans that go out of their way to watch movies because of their genre, regardless of accessibility or buzz. Again, George Romero's involvement alone would make sure that even a passing fan of horror (or budding cinephiles) would seek it out.
- dfxm12 1 month ago
- teddyh 1 month ago> Night of the Living Dead changed what horror films could be.
And this would indeed merit the film a historical footnote. But it would be virtually unavailable, and nobody in a position to make it available would take the chance on an ancient black-and-white film. And it would therefore in all likelihood languish in obscurity.
- bbarnett 1 month agoAll older films do not sit dormant for decades, and then are suddenly rediscovered. That's not remotely so. Some are a cult classic when produced, thus no one is ever "taking a chance on it", because it's always been a profitable endevour to pump out on late night TV, or on a VHS, DVD, Bluray, or digital version.
It feels like so much history and reality is missing in this idea of an 'ancient film'.
There were so many films like this, yet under copyright, available on late night TV back in the day. Before most had cable, before most even had VHS machines, you'd turn on TV at night on a Saturday, or at 2am on a Tuesday, and see endless old movies.
Once VHS came out, you could get virtually anything older because the film -> VHS transfer process was cheap, and people wanted content. You'd pay a buck to rent old junk at the store, and the campier the better.
Put another way, it became a cult classic when it was released, and then was always available. Endless copyrighted works were in the same category.
There is no 'chance' taken, for it was always seen as chance-worthy.
But beyond this:
* This film is the first part of a trilogy, Night, Dawn, Day of the Living Dead. Anyone watching any of these films, wanted to see the whole set
* Even if under copyright, as others have stressed, this one is on the list. What list? A list you do clearly not share, which is fine, but horror fan films do.
EDIT:
I'm going to give a little more context here.
In this timescope, there was a show called "I Dream of Jeannie"... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Dream_of_Jeannie
In this show, Barbra Eden wears a 60's envisioned harem costume. There is one important aspect of this costume, and that is that her belly button is covered.
Why?
Because it was illegal.
There is a whole deep dive here, but the point is that Night of the Living Dead was an extremely gory and violent film in its day, immensely groundbreaking, and people desperately wanted to see it.
It didn't become a cult classic because it was easier to distribute. It became one because of what it was.
That's the point I think.
NOTE: This does not invalidate the concept that some films can follow your path, it's just that this one didn't.
- bbarnett 1 month ago
- derbOac 1 month ago
- dublinben 1 month agoThis is exactly the same way that It’s A Wonderful Life became a much-revered Christmas classic. If the copyright hadn’t expired allowing monthlong TV marathons, it would have faded into obscurity. How many people remember The Best Years of Our Lives, which beat it out for multiple Oscars in 1947?
- glimshe 1 month agoWhat is the middle ground? Everybody knows that "free" has a huge appeal. But so does low cost, which arguably vastly reduced piracy for older movies and music. It seems that content providers found ways to unlock content by paying creators fractions of a cent. It would be cool if there was a standard way to acquire license for older content for very little without dealing with the copyright headaches.
- rwmj 1 month agoCopyrighted and then falls into the public domain after 14 years. Plenty of time to monetize, then benefits the public after a relatively short people of time.
- rakoo 1 month agoPiracy is only bad if you want to earn money for each eye watching a minute of a movie. What we're doing right now is piracy, no one pays anyone anything for content
The question shouldn't be about how much it costs but why do things cost anything in the beginning, and if they have to what is the amount a specific piece should be retributed for its contribution to society minus how the non-zero cost impacts society.
AIs are being let off the hook with their massive copyright infringement but when a movie being open directly benefits everyone suddenly that's a problem.
- graemep 1 month agoThe middle ground could be a lot of different things. One might be a reformed copyright system.
The economist I know of who calculated a socially optimal copyright duration, Rufus Pollock, came up with an estimate of 20 something years.
This makes sense from the point of view of finance because the NPV of extra years beyond this is very low. To put it in qualitative terms, no one is thinking about their grandchildren's pensions when they decide to create a work.
Personally I would also have different durations and rules for different types of work: a book, a video, and a piece of software are very different works and need diffferent incentives
- rwmj 1 month ago
- Finnucane 1 month agoI've seen The Best Years of Our Lives several times; it plays regularly on TCM.
- stuart78 1 month agoThe Best Years of Our Lives is a genuine classic. Complex narrative, brilliant cinematography and performances. It is a much more difficult film than It's A Wonderful Life, and absolutely worth watching.
- drewcoo 1 month ago/me raises hook hand . . . Myrna Loy . . .
- glimshe 1 month ago
- joekrill 1 month ago> This has strong vibes of “If only Linus Torvalds had charged for Linux, he would have been a rich man today.”. It does not work that way.
Not at all similar. Linus explicitly made his software free. Romero didn't _intentionally_ exclude the copyright notice, and had no explicit intention of making it free.
> It’s not “ironic”, it’s completely expected. If it was only an old black-and-white movie, still subject to copyright, today the movie would be a historical footnote at best.
"completely expected" is quite a stretch. Simply making it public domain wouldn't be enough. It still has to be a good movie. I'm sure there are countless other public domain black-and-white movies that no one has ever heard of.
- entropicdrifter 1 month ago>I'm sure there are countless other public domain black-and-white movies that no one has ever heard of.
See: MST3K and RiffTrax
- entropicdrifter 1 month ago
- ghaff 1 month agoWe had (many) version of Unix that were superior to Linux for a very long time. We can reasonable debate what Sun (in particular) should have done differently with SunOS/Solaris and Java in particular, but a for-pay-only version of Linux would just have been a fairly mediocre Unix variant.
- Ecgberht 1 month ago
- aaron695 1 month ago[dead]