The American vs. European Mindset on Life

51 points by mertbio 1 month ago | 53 comments
  • shayway 1 month ago
    While the overall message of the post rings true, I do think it deserves some criticism for the framing device of American vs. European. Let me explain.

    First, it has to be said, online cultural osmosis and working for an international American company are two very narrow experiences of American culture. The anecdote they use to demonstrate German 'European mindset' - their flatmate using used furniture - is not something that one would be exposed to online or through business connections. That they saw it as notable to have used furniture in the first place I find more telling, which brings me to my next point.

    This post is more a condemnation of middle-upper class consumerism and greed than American culture in particular. While it's fair to say the US spawned and championed the mindset, as noted in the post, it's spread far and wide in the decades since.

    Now, why does the distinction matter? Well, there are gazoodles of people in the US with the 'European mindset'. You don't see them through international business connections, you don't see them out and about in San Francisco, you don't see them making blog posts about it - not ones that would be shared on Hacker News, anyway.

    To those in the middle-upper-class tech sphere they don't exist. I'm happy for those who gain something from posts like these, who are inspired to adopt a more deliberate way of living. But furthering the perception that the 'European mindset' is tied to specific material things (in this case, living in Europe) only helps to perpetuate the 'American mindset', and further erase the existence of alternatives to it!

    • saltcured 1 month ago
      Exactly. One of my grandparents was from Germany, and that family did some "heirloom" furniture retention. But, I never saw this as a cultural trait one way or the other. It was very much an economic class thing. My other grandparents were less well off and didn't have as much to pass along, nor the luxury of space to hold onto items that weren't in active use.

      On the other hand, in recent decades I had a German colleague who was fully into treating furniture like "fast fashion". He loved things like IKEA and changing out whole sets of room furnishings on a whim. He tried to rationalize it as sensible to buy cheaper stuff since it was going to "be discarded anyway", and never really seemed to reflect on the idea that maybe he didn't need to change everything so often!

      • dangus 1 month ago
        Plenty of Americans work with this so-called “European mindset.” Most Americans seem to consider the attitude to be changing greatly especially among the most recent generation entering the workforce.

        When I looked up average work week hours it actually looks like the US is comparable to most EU countries. Some states even have much better numbers than some EU members, like Greece (which is trending toward a lengthening work week).

        https://landgeist.com/2022/02/08/average-weekly-working-hour...

      • politelemon 1 month ago
        The author has expressed themselves well and this shouldn't be flagged. I can only assume it has triggered portions of the audience.
        • dang 1 month ago
          The topic is classic flamewar fodder which has a strong tendency to lead to degraded angry discussions, so it's understandable why users flagged it.

          It's important to remember that [flagged] often says something about the comments rather than the article.

          In this case, though, the author's good intention is clear and the discussion seems at least relatively fine, so we can take off the flags and I've done that now.

        • mycatisblack 1 month ago

             Having lived in both systems and currently living in a country that clearly reflects the European mindset, I feel well positioned to compare the two.
          
          Having lived in Turkey, which you feel is heavily influenced by US culture, does not make you well positioned to compare EU and US.
          • cheschire 1 month ago
            And the German way of life does not necessarily reflect that of the rest of Europe either.

            But that’s not the author’s point.

            “The reason I wanted to write this post is to share the idea that there is another way to live.”

            • ahofmann 1 month ago
              The author worked in an American company. And the author is also right that reading mostly english content easily leads to more exposure of the american mindset.
              • hoseyor 1 month ago
                Not only that, he even explicitly states that he has a mostly online perspective.

                It’s a curious phenomenon that I don’t think is nearly appreciated enough that this technocratic, hubristic mindset that is prevalent among people in tech, riding high on some sense of power and high income, is causing major social issues akin to various other aristocratic type mindsets of the past; the figurative princes riding around their hereditary lands with upturned noses at the peasants they abuse that are both the source and base of their en-titled lives.

                Then you add on top of that the insult of immigrants trying to lecture indigenous people they are freeloaders on about how they know better who and what they are, and you have a mixture that seems like it could easily end up boiling over for understandable reasons one day, when the resentment is explosively released because containment by the authoritarian ruling class invariably slips.

              • OfficeChad 1 month ago
                [dead]
              • OutOfHere 1 month ago
                On average, neither Americans nor Europeans know how to spend their time of money well to really better their life andor the world around them. They mostly spend it on wasteful things that lead to them burning out their mental and physical health faster rather than slower. Some of these wasteful things are: gambling without a strategy, unnecessary material goods, expensive cars, excessive vacations, restaurants, illegal or unsafe drugs, alcohol, and tobacco.
                • TailorXBT 1 month ago
                  Mert's new blog post is like a huge "wake-up" call. The point is something everyone is aware of in daily life, but cannot put a name to. Some of us notice the difference in perspective from international game's some of us from work life, and some of us from daily life.

                  So this blog post makes the point clear.

                  Also, I have to add that I didn't understand why this post was flagged. There must be an explanation for it. There is nothing harmful in this post. I think it is unfair.

                  • asimpletune 1 month ago
                    Honestly one of the biggest and most important differences is cars, city planning, and how they effect one’s community. I saw the other day a show hn for making friends and thought that so much of that need comes from not being surrounded by people in cities designed for people.

                    I’ll use a metaphor that I think is funny. If life were an office, it is better from a community standpoint to start your life in an open office, and then eventually decide as you get more senior if you want to work from home completely, hybrid, or stay in the open floor plan. The opposite is a disaster, when life begins as a work from home office, from a community perspective, because you don’t have a good bridge to prior generations and other branches of the human genealogy tree.

                    I’ll end by saying that I love the USA and it has a lot of great attributes as a nation. I honestly wouldn’t have enough time in this comment to go over how many things are done well there. Anyways, I’m just a little worried about the compounding effects from being without community, due to cities designed for cars. Situations like that can be unpredictable and dangerous, with unsavory alternatives suddenly seeming attractive.

                    Roommates, romantic partners, workmates, and college buds are the saving grace in all this.

                    • davidcalloway 1 month ago
                      I totally agree with this! So much of what we've come to think as American culture emerged from the political success of the car.

                      It's the main thing I notice that aggravates me when I return to visit the USA: cars, cars everywhere, and few places that allow walking as a reasonable means of transport.

                    • amai 1 month ago
                      The author has never lived in the US, but thinks he knows the American mindset of life? An the author lived in Germany, but generalizes his experiences there to all of Europe?

                      The author should refrain from geographical comparisons and instead simply say "The materialistic vs the altruistic mindset." Because surprise, surprise you will find materialistic and altruistic people on both sides of the Atlantic.

                      • atoav 1 month ago
                        As someone who lived and traveled across Europe the Author being in Germany even makes this a stronger point. Most of Southern and Western Europe culturally has even less materialism than Germany and similar to the North. If I'd try to look for slightly more materialistic European areas it would be everything post-soviet or post-jugoslavian, but even there only to a certain degree.

                        The main difference between the US and the EU is especially in how materialism is shown. In the US there is a strong trend to equate wealth with visible wealth, while in the EU that son of an Empire with three castles might look like a regular guy when you see him with his slightly upstandard car buying groceries at his retailer. Ans I know such people. European rich people don't look rich if you meet them, because displaying your wealth ostentaciously is seen as vulgar. Rich people feel they need to give back to society, so even if they have castles they are used for exhibitions or other community purposes.

                        This of course also exists in the US, but to a lesser degree and more often as a turn of the century sort of legacy thing

                        • ndriscoll 1 month ago
                          > In the US there is a strong trend to equate wealth with visible wealth

                          That doesn't sound right to me. Visible wealth has always been something I've equated with "came into some unexpected money (probably not even that much) and immediately blew it" even when my family was not exactly wealthy. As I once saw it put on reddit, things like Gucci are what poor people think rich people buy. My impression has always been that rich people generally don't want to draw attention to themselves in the US either.

                          Celebrities may flaunt their wealth (and may distort people's perception of what wealthy people are like), but their whole deal is drawing attention to themselves so that makes sense.

                          • atoav 1 month ago
                            I should have added that this isn't just a personal feeling. Differing consumer sentiment is a field that has been extensively studied (it is useful to know consumer sentiment if you're a US company trying to sell stuff in the EU or vice versa).

                            This one is a good read: Rözer, J., Lancee, B. & Volker, B. Keeping Up or Giving Up? Income Inequality and Materialism in Europe and the United States. Soc Indic Res 159, 647–666 (2022), see<https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11205-021-02760-1>

                      • davidcalloway 1 month ago
                        I'm curious how the author has much experience with the American mindset, since he didn't mention living in America when describing his background.

                        Having said that, as an American living in Germany, I lately agree with his description of the difference. And, frankly, I cannot currently see myself ever returning to my home country other than shorter visits.

                        • hoseyor 1 month ago
                          So you will be relinquishing your citizenship and won’t run back to the USA when things go sideways over there? I’m not sure if you have the historical or political context, but Europe is staring down a hurricane on the horizon, regardless of the pleasant weather right now.

                          Europe as you know it, the things you like about it is fundamentally doomed because the system is designed to doom it. The EU that was a bait and switch, is now basically being run by a central committee called the EU Commission. Is fundamentally authoritarian and prone to the same failures as all hubristic central committees of know it alls.

                          It’s the iron triangle and the EU central committee is not only trying to pick all three while lying about it, they’re also trying to pick things outside of the triangle. It cannot and will not work because it is impossible for any amount of time.

                          You may enjoy it in Europe/Germany, freeloading on all the “social services” that are “free” (even though you will have surely noticed how that is changing quickly) due to the exploitation of what the indigenous people built over decades and centuries, but that’s really what it is, a fraud, even if you don’t realize it.

                          For example, you very likely make far beyond what the average person in Germany makes. You are living a nice life, based on what those old ethnically German people you see here and there did to rebuild the country after the war, and now get a mere €1000 per month to live on. That’s why you have “free and safe and efficient public transportation” and “free education” because they were exploited all their lives.

                          It is not a personal thing, it’s an issue with immigration in general as immigration is inherently freeloading when it is into a country that is more advanced or better. At the very least immigration to better countries should come with massive freeloader taxes, and immigration to worse countries should come with low-tax incentives. Just keep it in mind as you benefit from what you enjoy but did not contribute to, and quite likely also support politics of imposition from your island of exclusivity; the same politics that destroyed America.

                          You may not realize it, but the very same things and people that destroyed the rather nice America of the past are also now destroying Europe. You’re just riding the wave at the moment and get to enjoy the tail end of the oasis. I know this because, as unlikely and weird as it sounds, I know the people whose fathers and grandfathers, their families destroyed America and who are destroying Europe today.

                          • davidcalloway 1 month ago
                            So many assumptions here that it's hard to know where to start. The fact that I prefer a mindset which prioritizes time with friends and family is extrapolated into a caricature of me as a freeloader. It's a bit of a stretch.

                            On that note, you seem to be saying that immigration is a form of freeloading in general. But the expense of my upbringing all happened in America, and I basically arrived ready to contribute right away in Germany. And I've paid plenty of taxes along the way.

                            At the end you make wild assumptions about my political support for which you have no evidence. I'm aware that Germany faces serious issues surrounding immigration, but I didn't think rhetoric which paints the current picture as a catastrophe and inevitable decline into chaos is very helpful.

                            There are so many other points... It's hard to know what set you off by my mere remark that the author is largely correct in his observations and I prefer living in a country that values free time as well as work!

                            • mnky9800n 1 month ago
                              Perhaps they just feel like arguing
                              • hoseyor 1 month ago
                                I’m a bit disappointed that you resorted to deflection. You’re being defensive. It implies to me that you really know what I’m talking about and your subconscious is trying to ward it off.

                                Reality simply is that freeloading is a condition, not something you need to take personal. If you are equally benefiting from things you did not contribute to at the same total cost as those previously invested, then you are freeloading.

                                Should you be able to buy Bitcoin today at the original offering price? Should you have equal control as heirs of a company you did not build?

                                I fail to see why you and seemingly a few other people find that challenging to understand. If you pay the same price to, e.g., ride the “cheap and effective” public transportation in Europe that Europeans have been taxed hundreds of millions in capital costs over several decades to build up, how is that not freeloading?

                                Sure, you can’t even not freeload if you wanted to by paying higher prices and the real issue are the abusive and toxic governments in Europe in my example, but explain to me how a little old lady that gets €1000/month in pension after a life of turning Europe into what it was until recently, being taxed 40% all get life should pay the same price for a rail ticket as an American making double the European salary and paying around 25% taxes?

                                These are not challenging concepts. It’s a bit disheartening that presumably technical/dev type people do not understand basic systems.

                              • Adverblessly 1 month ago
                                > For example, you very likely make far beyond what the average person in Germany makes.

                                In that case, don't they contribute more in taxes than whatever tax-funded services they consume?

                                • hoseyor 1 month ago
                                  Yes, but you are missing the point. It is the issue of riding in at the last minute to benefit from the product of others’ work.

                                  Don’t get me wrong, you’re not the only one that misses this whole issue. It is a gargantuan elephant in the room that very few people seem to be able to even get even when it is pointed out for some reason. It is fundamentally also the very core issue of “communism” and “capitalism” for that matter, albeit in different ways; wanting to exploit the dries of others’ labor.

                                • OfficeChad 1 month ago
                                  [dead]
                              • samuli 1 month ago
                                European mindset is more about everybody being equal, than becoming better than others.
                                • Eddy_Viscosity2 1 month ago
                                  This is a bit idealistic. I don't think its any more true than saying the American mindset is about freedom and the European mindset is about control, in that neither are true.
                                  • amriksohata 1 month ago
                                    Sounds like the road to Communism
                                    • karmakurtisaani 1 month ago
                                      It's a slippery slope. One day you're providing free health care to children, the next you're being rolled into a mass grave in a gulag.
                                  • puskuruk 1 month ago
                                    This blog post doesn’t bring anything new to the table
                                    • fpauser 1 month ago
                                      Interesting post, thanks for this!
                                      • jxjnskkzxxhx 1 month ago
                                        > people who embrace this mindset sometimes mock or dismiss the European approach, often without making any real effort to understand it.

                                        Meh, Europeans do the same with respect to Americans.

                                        • ksplicer 1 month ago
                                          I'd say the German mindset and American mindset is closer than most other European countries. Germany is one of the most capitalistic countries in Western Europe.
                                          • hoseyor 1 month ago
                                            [flagged]
                                            • dang 1 month ago
                                              Can you please make your substantive points without crossing into personal attack? This is possible regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are, and it's what we're trying for on HN.

                                              https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

                                              • hoseyor 1 month ago
                                                You’re being manipulative, the substantive point is that he cannot possibly have an even remotely accurate understanding of anything he is talking about.

                                                Isn’t that what the last decades of ethnic abuse against “white peoples” has been about, accusing them of not knowing how it feels to be {insert some people of color label}, while also at the same time demanding proximity to “whites”?

                                                So why would he know anything about “whites” (for brevity) but “whites” can’t speak on peoples of color even when they are demanding proximity to “whites”?

                                                It is really rather abusive and narcissistic.

                                                It reminds me of an Indian got I met that was exploring the German employment law to travel the world in his employer’s dime, who told me that the German economy and society was not “dynamic enough”, by which I assume he meant how he was being dynamic. And this coming from someone from a society where open defection, levels of pollution, filth, and disease are at levels that most westerners simply do not seem to have the ability to comprehend and refuse to accept when you tell them; and economy that is largely based on fraud, deception, and success is based on being able to pull over over of people, especially westerners who they’ve conflated with the British so they are proud of now conquering and destroying.

                                              • davidcalloway 1 month ago
                                                Ah, now that I see this comment, I'm guessing you're one of the ones that flagged the post.

                                                You're surely more knowledgeable than the author about America and Europe, but he's not commenting about the differences of those two things.

                                                He's only remarking that he's observed a general difference in the mindsets in the two cultures.

                                                As pointed out by another comment, it's a fairly broad observation that many have noticed.

                                                • hoseyor 1 month ago
                                                  No. I do not flag or censor things at all under regular circumstances because I actually practice the belief that it is in fact a human right to free expression unless it is aggressively abusive or actually threatening. I will also tolerate regular harsh and abusive words and in most cases if I don’t tolerate it I will just not read it or look away or even just block. I’m not vindictive like most people seem to be today where an ideological mob forms to suppress heretical ideas that their herding instincts compel them to suppress in order to be a good member of the herd.
                                                • lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1 month ago
                                                  > I am intimately familiar with all of Europe and all of the USA due to deep and broad ethnic, historical, and political roots in both continents, from the lowest low to the highest levels of global control

                                                  > Beware of the man who claims to know it all.

                                                  • rkomorn 1 month ago
                                                    I find it a bit disingenuous that you chose to quote those two bits while ignoring the words between the two:

                                                    > and I find it difficult to fully encapsulate or even identify the essence between the two, because the more you know, the more you know what little you know

                                                    They're evidently not claiming to know it all.

                                                    • lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1 month ago
                                                      Yes, that sentence in full is disclaiming they know it all after claiming they know it all in a seeming attempt to invalidate the author’s account. It is not strictly accurate to say they are not claiming that; what you are pointing out is that they are also disclaiming it. I do not see how that is an improvement.
                                                • somethingsome 1 month ago
                                                  > The European mindset, on the other hand, prioritizes collective well-being and ensuring a high quality of life for everyone.

                                                  Sounds completely false to me, people are not happy in general (maybe only previous generations), and even less happy are people that love their work where there is no reward, only more administrative tasks and regulations.

                                                  The skills are not there anymore, the competency neither, it is not sustainable at all..

                                                  But people like their current comfort and do not think too much what will happen next.

                                                  Taxes most of the time are used to finance some private company, disguised in fundings. Or taxes are used sustain people that don't work and never will. Someone that doesn't work in my country make 3/4 to 5/4 of someone working 100h a week. It's completely nonsense, they have absolutely no incentives to work, and people are incentived to stop working.

                                                  There are almost no working services, and functioning facilities. I really don't identify myself with that so great European mindset.

                                                  I'm maybe only one data point that should move to America, but I cannot agree about 'European mindset prioritizes collective well-being and ensuring a high quality of life for everyone'

                                                  • 1 month ago
                                                    • atoav 1 month ago
                                                      So how is your healthcare in comparison to what you'd have US?
                                                      • somethingsome 1 month ago
                                                        I actually work in close relationship with hospitals, there is a lack in quality of life for doctors, most of their salary is extremely taxed, they are extremely overworked and with very bad working conditions.

                                                        They often move out of the country, and the ones that remains are often not the better ones.

                                                        But yeah, its less expensive, unless you factor all the things that are not reimbursed and the wait times.

                                                        I'm loosing karma, I guess I can't express my data point freely.

                                                        • atoav 1 month ago
                                                          All real problems that many health systems experience (including the US). I can't help but notice that you did not answer my question.
                                                    • silisili 1 month ago
                                                      The US experience is summed up as having lived in a country with some perceived US influence, and having worked for a US company for an undisclosed amount of time.

                                                      The European one by the same, except also having lived in Germany for some undisclosed amount of time.

                                                      Using this 'experience' to speak authoritatively about the US or Europe as a whole is borderline insulting, regardless of content.

                                                      • MrScruff 1 month ago
                                                        Regardless of the author’s authority on the topic, the broad generalisation he’s making is quite a common one and not really that controversial.
                                                        • davidcalloway 1 month ago
                                                          This is exactly what I wanted to say... Lacking credentials, but still accurate observations.
                                                        • _DeadFred_ 1 month ago
                                                          Take this understanding and go read the current Youtube HN thread on how much better and educational, real content we know have. Current understanding is about an inch deep and written from the outset to 'convey' a predetermined perspect or lesson.
                                                          • okwhateverdude 1 month ago
                                                            As an immigrant from the US to NL, and having lived here over a decade and a half, the author's observation is pretty spot on. There are broad differences between the Dutch and Germans (stereotypically, they both like rules, but only the Germans are really strict about them, for example), but overall, they are similar in their mindset toward work. Of others I have met from all over the EU, they too seem to have similar cultural values.

                                                            One of the things I have seen, first hand, is when American's buy EU companies and start running them. Or when they open offices over here. The culture shock and friction is immediate. Meta, for example, basically did no labor law research before announcing a layoff, and got slapped hard by the locals. Took years for that process to finally resolve which induced a ton of stress for everyone working there. You also have founders over here that salivate at the Silicon Valley culture and want to emulate it, but for whatever reason don't actually want to move there. They also induce friction in their companies. For what it is worth, I don't want to work at a company with those kinds of cultural influences. And I want to make sure if those companies operate here, we tax them appropriately and force them to behave in an acceptable way that benefits society.