KDE for Windows 10 Exiles – Upgrade your software, not your computer

86 points by jlpcsl 1 month ago | 82 comments
  • Pet_Ant 1 month ago
    It's not relevant now, but back when I started using Linux (Red Hat 7.1 I think) what made me choose KDE was that with KDE all the apps had a conspicuous 'K' in their names whereas Gnome app did not, so it was easier to get a consistent user experience.

    After that it was Konqueror with the different protocols like "wk:" in the address bar to search Wikipedia.

    Then when I learned more, it just seemed like Qt was a much more capable foundation to build a desktop on, and I wanted to bet on the winner.

    In the end KDE did win the desktop... because they built WebKit (as KHTML) and everything is now a webapp and the desktop is otherwise irrelevant.

    • rhabarba 1 month ago
      > everything is now a webapp

      When, why and how became this a good thing?

      • liotier 1 month ago
        >> everything is now a webapp

        > When, why and how became this a good thing?

        Cheap instant all-terrain deployment trumps most other considerations, especially where technical onboarding is on the critical path to customer acquisition.

        • gspencley 1 month ago
          There are definitely advantages to companies. As an end-user, the only advantages I can think of are data centralization and device portability.

          While we're talking about "webapps", generally, and not SaaS specifically... the two often go so hand in hand that it is the exception to see a webapp that is not also a SaaS product.. and as a consumer I kind of mostly hate SaaS.

          With the above two advantages noted, lets look at the cons:

          - Companies can, and routinely do, push unwanted UX changes on me without my opt-in. Pre-SaaS you would wait for a new version to come out and could see what the reviews were saying before deciding if you like the changes and want the new features. Now you're a guinea pig and get the new "features" whether they are a benefit to you or not.

          - Forces me to have my data on someone else's computer

          - The "other peoples' computer" issue means that if there is a software or a hardware failure that prevents me from being able to do urgent work that it is entirely outside of my hands and my ability to troubleshoot the majority of the time (though this is a double edged sword since for the average non-technical user it can be a big benefit)

          - Can't work without an active Internet connection (though I'll concede that not having an active connection is becoming pretty rare these days)

          - If the company goes out of business, say goodbye to your data in the majority of cases

          - Often goes hand in hand with renting the software rather than paying a flat fee for a perpetual license. Given the choice, I will always opt for a perpetual license. I try hard to have as few recurring payments in my budget as possible. Utility bills are bad enough.

          If, however, by "webapp" we just mean a desktop application that uses a DOM-based rendering engine then I couldn't care less. There are tradeoffs, but they are purely technical and rarely impact UX directly in the way that a general approach to software delivery and consumption does.

        • jollyllama 1 month ago
          Because, relatively speaking, it solves the distribution problem. Distributing to your set of servers is easier than distributing to the set of desktops.
          • neepi 1 month ago
            At the cost of a generally worse end user experience and no offline ability.

            I am glad Apple didn't do that and stayed native for nearly everything. This is a big selling point for me.

            • gjsman-1000 1 month ago
              Which also goes to show how backwards Linux package distribution is at this point.

              If you’re a small company, you can either build a web app which works everywhere; or you can deal with a distribution pushing out a buggy 3-year-old release against your will, with users harassing you about bugs.

              Packaging on Linux for normal desktop apps was dead on arrival. It was never viable except for niche open source apps. The resistance to this fact makes the failure of the Linux desktop somewhat self-inflicted.

            • FirmwareBurner 1 month ago
              When? When the majority of SW dev work became synonymous with web dev.

              Why? Because that's what web devs are comfortable with.

              How became this a good thing? When web apps became the easiest way to deploy cross platform.

              • AnotherGoodName 1 month ago
                Also the native UX kits all suck and have done so forever. There i said it.

                There’s a reason KDE looks better, has better consistency across apps, does theming at the os level better etc. Html/javascript/css for your native app frontend is actually quite reasonable.

              • anonym29 1 month ago
                (edit, misread)
                • rhabarba 1 month ago
                  I did not say otherwise.
              • carlosjobim 1 month ago
                The desktop is only irrelevant on FOSS platforms such as Linux, because the native software is so incredibly bad. If you want the best software, it's in native apps, usually on MacOS.

                A modern classic absurdity: Linux enthusiasts who purchase MacBooks and use them to do all their computing in shitty web apps.

              • blyry 1 month ago
                Plasma on Ubuntu is the what windows 7 could've been. It's been my daily for a couple years now, with jetbrains tooling and vscode. The only reason I boot back into windows is if I have to work on a .net framework app with visual studio. And Ubuntu is even explicitly supported by dell and Lenovo? It's a no brainer tbh. I'm lucky that my corporate IT is cool with it: I showed them how it supports drive encryption, can join our domain and run our patching software to meet all their 'policy'
                • TYPE_FASTER 1 month ago
                  I've been pleasantly surprised at how far I can go using Rider to do .NET development on a Mac. I was able to do pretty much everything, including running SQL Server in a container.
                  • blyry 1 month ago
                    Yeah dude! Did you see linqpad is supported on osx now? I used a Mac for a couple years, last gen Intel, when I was doing mostly node work, but I never really got used to it. One of my coworkers though has been doing full-time .net on a Mac with jetbrains for probably about 2 years now and he said he's just as productive as before at this point.
                    • TYPE_FASTER 1 month ago
                      I hadn't used LINQPad before, thanks for sharing. Going to try it out.
                • jeroenhd 1 month ago
                  Something often ignored by articles like these: you can still use Windows 10 safely past the 10 year support period, if you pay for additional updates: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/extended...

                  Realistically, many people will use registry hacks and other forms of piracy to get those updates for free, of course, just like people did with Windows 7. Only businesses or people afraid of viruses will pay, but that's probably enough for Microsoft.

                  I find it quite confusing to seemingly target people still unaware that Windows 10 is going out of support, but also list FTP/SSH/git/SVN integration as a feature. The people who use version control probably know what alternatives are or aren't available (even if they'd rather not need to find an alternative).

                  • bell-cot 1 month ago
                    Worth noting: For home users, the first year of that Win 10 Extended Support appears to cost only $30. Has MS decided that "make it cheap & easy to be legal" is their best counter-piracy strategy?
                    • jeroenhd 1 month ago
                      I don't think my parents will be paying $30 for Windows 10, and neither will many non-IT friends. Plus, even if you decide to go legal after a year, you're still paying the cumulative price ($60 if you buy a year of support in November 2026). I think their pricing strategy is more "don't blame us for the lack of competition in the OS space, we offered you an alternative to replacing your hardware" than "make it cheap & easy to be legal".

                      If they wanted to make the offer look good, I think they would've put out special offers with OneDrive storage and a year of extra security support for $5 per month rather than $2.50 a month for just updates.

                  • alyandon 1 month ago
                    This really just blows my mind that Microsoft believes people are going to throw their perfectly functional laptops/desktops into the trash. All Microsoft has to do to keep people on Windows and in the Microsoft ecosystem would be to offer a supported version of Windows 11 without the CPU and TPM 2.0 requirements.

                    For me, every one of the older machines in my household (laptops and desktops) that are currently on Windows 10 that cannot run Windows 11 in a fully supported manner will be migrated to a KDE based Linux distro.

                    • jeroenhd 1 month ago
                      Microsoft is selling support for those perfectly functional laptops/desktops past Windows 10's 10 year support window: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/whats-new/extended...

                      ESU costs $30 for one year, $60 for two years. That's a lot cheaper than a new laptop.

                      • freeone3000 1 month ago
                        This is, in fact, the point. They do not want the support burden and negative security posture of supporting billions of computers that cannot have a locked bootloader.
                        • Zambyte 1 month ago
                          The legally enforced monopoly on support is to blame for this, not well-functioning hardware.
                          • beeflet 1 month ago
                            Linux has no problem supporting pretty much every PC hardware ever made, any filesystem, etc. So while it might reduce their costs, they are hedging customers every generation
                            • freeone3000 1 month ago
                              Linux Foundation doesn’t “support” anything in the sense met above. They do not provide antivirus updates, or a help line, or consultation services. They are not responsible in any way if every device running linux gets hacked. It’s simply not their problem — but it is Microsoft’s.
                            • alyandon 1 month ago
                              I get that security is part of the posturing - I just think it is tone deaf to the reality that not everyone is going to be willing to spend $500-$2000 USD just to be able to "run" Windows 11.

                              I have friends and family that will continue to run EOL Windows 10 which is worse unless I convince them to migrate to Linux.

                              • skydhash 1 month ago
                                Negative security?
                                • hulitu 1 month ago
                                  > Negative security?

                                  If you employ snake oil like Crowdstrike or "secure boot" (when the key stays on MS servers).

                              • RedShift1 1 month ago
                                Tbf it was the same story when Windows XP went EoL and by now almost all of those have been replaced. So what's most likely is that Windows 10 will stick around for some time until it silently fades away, just like XP did, regardless of CPU/TPM shenanigans.
                                • sp0rk 1 month ago
                                  As somebody that was using Windows XP up to its EoL, I am fairly certain I was in the minority (at least amongst home users.) I don't think anybody I knew was using XP by the time its end came. The only reason I was still on it at the time was a complete lack of income which meant using very old hand-me-down hardware.

                                  The situation with Windows 10 feels quite different, because most people I know that use Windows are on Windows 10 currently.

                                  • RedShift1 1 month ago
                                    Nah it was the same when Windows XP went EoL, people were also up in arms having to replace computers that worked perfectly fine for them.
                                • Zambyte 1 month ago
                                  Average computer literacy of computer users is at an all time low. If trillion dollar company says it's time to consume more product, they must know something I don't.
                                  • the__alchemist 1 month ago
                                    You can install Win 11, but not in-place. Need to use boot media. This is an obstacle for many people, but not someone who would I stall Linux. (From boot media)
                                    • alyandon 1 month ago
                                      It's about having a fully supported Windows 11 install vs bypassing the CPU and TPM check the installer does.
                                      • the__alchemist 1 month ago
                                        Is there a practical difference? I.e, what does fully supported mean? For context, I had assumed an older laptop was unable to upgrade until I tried it, then did some research. Wondering if I missed something subtle.
                                      • TiredOfLife 1 month ago
                                        You can in place. Even the 11 iot enterprise that officially doesn't have the artificial hardware blocks.
                                    • nicholasbraker 1 month ago
                                      My 85 years old dad uses Win10 right now, but using KDE (or similar environment) seems to be a good alternative. He only uses Firefox and mail anyway.
                                      • neepi 1 month ago
                                        Tried this with my mother. I had to rebuild the machine with Windows 11 LTSC afterwards. Which she hates but less than Linux which was totally unusable for her.

                                        YMMV but this isn't a real option for a lot of people.

                                        • liotier 1 month ago
                                          My 87 years-old dad has no idea what OS he runs and migrating a laptop to KDE gave him a stable system with none of the confusing commercial offers, uncontrolled upgrades and forced account creations.
                                          • neepi 1 month ago
                                            That would have been my post on here exactly two days before I was rebuilding it with Windows 11 LTSC...
                                          • 0xAFFFF 1 month ago
                                            I've been pondering switching to Linux for my mother in-law that has a pretty limited use of her computer (online groceries, emails mostly) and their page is pretty unconvincing in that case. I mean yeah OK, you guys have extensive customization, virtual desktops and all the bells and whistles that appeal to power users, but is it easy to put it in the hands of someone else without having to do customer support all year long?
                                            • neepi 1 month ago
                                              No - support was the problem. I was spending an hour a night helping her through things. It's not just "stupid users can work it out" situation. It's like moving to another country. And there isn't a lot of information out there to solve a lot of problems. And it's even worse trying to do phone support with someone who doesn't understand what they are looking at because it has all changed.

                                              One cost me a 100 mile round trip to turn airplane mode off after I assume she'd accidentally whacked the mouse wheel button on the icon instead of the browser which for some completely unknown reason does that?!?!?!?! I'm not sure that was even what she did but I spent ages trying to work out how she could have even done that in the first place.

                                            • selivanovp 1 month ago
                                              Try again with Ubuntu’s Gnome if you’ll have an opportunity. The “problem” with KDE is that it tries to look like and behave similar to Windows, but it’s not, so older people that remembered how to deal with one UI are confused when what looks similar in reality behaves differently. And it results in frustration.

                                              Gnome, on the other hand, provides a totally different UI, so user immediately identifies that it is different and needs to be learned a bit. But thanks to Gnome being pretty coherent and simple in how UI works, it usually takes very little time to learn and then they just keep using it. I experimented with my parents, father is 70, mother 65, and they both earned default Ubuntu very quickly and don’t have any issues using it, unlike win10+, which constantly raised questions and frustrations that something changed (MS likes to bring idiotic widgets to panels and menus after updates no matter that nobody asked for them).

                                              • neepi 1 month ago
                                                Gnome is just fucking horrible. I considered that but I know she's going to have problems with dragging title bars an accidentally clicking something.

                                                I did just consider buying her a Mac Mini and be done with it. That seems, to this day, the most suitable solution.

                                            • kalaksi 1 month ago
                                              I now run KDE on Fedora after I got fed up with snaps and bugs in Ubuntu 24.04.

                                              For linux newbies, I'd actually suggest checking out Linux Mint with Cinnamon desktop. I used to run Mint a long time ago and recently installed it for someone trying to change from Windows. it was nice to see that they still provide a good, preconfigured UX. And no snaps. It's probably simpler than KDE but not too simple.

                                              • GrantMoyer 1 month ago
                                                I find Plasma much more pleasant to use than Windows' shell. There's no specific big feature that makes it stand out, but it works just a little more smoothly in almost everything it does.

                                                Maybe it's a case of [1], but I think Plasma is ready for the average desktop user. The other parts of the system may have some ways to go.

                                                [1]: https://xkcd.com/2501/

                                                • the__alchemist 1 month ago
                                                  #1: You can install Win 11 on older machines from boot media.

                                                  #2: End-of-updates isn't the security vulnerability large software vendors make it out to be, in the context of PC use. The paragraph below the first picture is FUD.

                                                  • 1 month ago
                                                    • rhabarba 1 month ago
                                                      KDE is actually a good example of why non-Linux users say that Linux users would actually prefer to use Windows.
                                                      • jeroenhd 1 month ago
                                                        Gnome remains the most popular Linux desktop, despite the hatred it receives from hardcore Linux users, just because it's the default in Ubuntu and Fedora.

                                                        Other than Aurora Shell, but many people prefer to separate ChromeOS from other Linux Distros.

                                                        • Zambyte 1 month ago
                                                          This is weird to say when Microsoft has been very obviously inspired by KDE.
                                                          • rhabarba 1 month ago
                                                            When KDE started, it was strongly influenced by CDE. It became more Windows-y with every major(ish) version, while Windows did not get any (relevant) inspiration from CDE.
                                                            • 4ad 1 month ago
                                                              Indeed, KDE is like Windows, which is sad, because I don't like the desktop metaphor, yet KDE is the only group that is concerned with usability and improves the system with every release.

                                                              I actually don't mind the GNOME metaphor... but they make it less and less usable over each release. Philosophically, what they are talking about sounds great, but pragmatically the system is just getting less and less usable. UX consistency is good, but not when it comes at the expense of functionality. Also, I don't like that GNOME has been ideologically captured by the extreme left.

                                                              Back in the day I ran WindowMaker and FVWM, but nowadays, with Wayland, HiDPI screens and expectations of integration, it is not a viable strategy anymore.

                                                          • gbin 1 month ago
                                                            Do you mind elaborating why?