Supreme Court limits nationwide injunctions in birthright citizenship order

41 points by donsupreme 2 weeks ago | 47 comments
  • josefritzishere 2 weeks ago
    Executive Orders do not overrule the Constitution. That would mean there is no law. No law at all. It would make every president a dictator; whose word is law. Something which is unthinkable and incompatible with democracy.
    • sundaeofshock 2 weeks ago
      And yet here we are. This court has decided that Trump is a king and that’s pretty much it.
      • readthenotes1 2 weeks ago
        No, they decided that any particular federal judge is not King and that if there's going to be broad spread relief, there needs to be a class action suit brought, or that the supreme Court needs to step in.
        • HaZeust 2 weeks ago
          Let me preface this by first saying your reply is "No" to a comment that stated the courts just ruled the President as a King.

          You followed that by saying they just decided no federal judge is King (not what OP said), and you supported both of your statements by saying that, "if there's going to be broad spread relief [to an executive action], there needs to be a class action suit brought, or that the supreme Court needs to step in".

          And tell me, what branch of government is the loss of the steadfast check-and-balance known as "universal injunctions" in favor of – and will now require for ANY AND ALL parties to ONLY be recognized for their loss and damages from actions of the Executive ONLY IF they have the means to sue for it and prevail – in a 1:1 cardinality? Could it be the Executive, who OP said this supported Kingsmanship for?

          If a executive action is so unjust, so grotesque, and you need to round up parties damaged by it – outside of the absurdly long time most courts take to make things whole – can't that also be a way to round up people being directly targeted by 1 of 3 branches?

          Example: EO-1 quietly builds a “voluntary” federal digital ID, so no one is harmed and nobody has standing for their own injunctions. Then, EO-2 later makes that ID mandatory to file taxes, get Social Security, renew a passport, etc. Real injury finally appears, but each citizen must sue alone and any victory helps only that plaintiff while everyone else stays locked out. The first order sinks the foundations; the second flips the switch.

          That’s the executive tilt OP warned about.

          • myvoiceismypass 2 weeks ago
            I don't think the person you are replying to is necessarily referencing this recent particular case as you assume.

            In 2024 SCOTUS injected new very very very very broad immunity from prosecution to all past, present and future presidents. Leading a violent insurrection apparently qualifies as a "presidential act"? They are indeed Kings now.

        • Ancapistani 2 weeks ago
          This EO is not even attempting to overrule the Constitution.

          The 14th Amendment includes the language “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof”.

          Is a child born to a foreign national who is present in the US without legal authorization subject to the jurisdiction of the US? Historically, we’ve said “yes”. This EO instructs the executive branch to adopt the position of “no”.

          This is roughly equivalent to the EPA or BATFE changing the way it interprets an longstanding statute in a new way — which, by the way, they do very frequently.

          • biimugan 2 weeks ago
            This is decidedly not equivalent to those things, even roughly. Interpreting a statute (which by the way this Supreme Court has expressly limited, which is ironic given your comment) is quite different from interpreting an amendment to the Constitution. What you're describing is like saying a president can re-interpret the meaning of 'militia' in the 2nd amendment and start confiscating everyone's firearms because they're not members of a militia. Even despite rulings like Heller. This is exactly the argument that the dissent in this case makes.
            • Ancapistani 2 weeks ago
              > which is ironic given your comment

              With all due respect, what about my comment makes that ironic? I’m generally quite careful not to post if the only thing I have to offer is an opinion, and try to keep opinion out of it entirely.

              > What you're describing is like saying a president can re-interpret the meaning of 'militia' in the 2nd amendment and start confiscating everyone's firearms because they're not members of a militia. Even despite rulings like Heller.

              That’s basically what was done prior to Heller. Not for “everyone”, but functionally for several minority groups. Since Heller those efforts have primarily been at the state level (which is somewhat different, even with incorporation).

              > This is exactly the argument that the dissent in this case makes.

              Prior to today, I wasn’t super familiar with the case law here. It does look like SCOTUS has ruled in the past: US v. Wong Kim Ark (1898).

              It’s after 4am here, and Wong Kim Ark is a long ruling. I simply don’t have the attention remaining to read the whole thing right now, but I skimmed it and ran it through my a couple of LLMs. In skimming it, it appears to be applicable here both broadly and specifically. All the LLMs I’ve tried agree with that statement, including when phrased in the negative.

              In short: I was wrong, I believe you’re correct, and this EO should be overturned citing this precedent.

              ——

              As we’ve spoken of opinion, I’ll break with my normal course and state plainly: I believe birthright citizenship should be ended. However, given what I know now, the only acceptable way to do so would be a Constitutional amendment.

              I’m opposed to anything that oversteps governmental authority, regardless of whether or not it happens to serve my own political interests at the time.

            • atmavatar 2 weeks ago
              Jurisdiction has to do with the location of the birth.

              If a child is born on US soil - whether that be US proper or US embassies in foreign countries (which are treated as US soil), they are automatically a citizen.

              Note that it also explicitly skips foreign nationals born inside foreign embassies, which are treated as sovereign land of the hosted country - e.g., a French Embassy is French land, so a child born to a French ambassador is not a US citizen.

              The argument that illegal aliens are not subject to US jurisdiction would also be followed by the absurdity that law enforcement could not arrest them for crimes and ICE could not deport them... due to lack of jurisdiction.

              • Ancapistani 2 weeks ago
                My understanding on this topic has progressed quite a bit. Please see this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44403323

                > Note that it also explicitly skips foreign nationals born inside foreign embassies

                I’m unsure whether or not being on embassy grounds changes anything here in a general sense, but a child born to a foreign ambassador is not a US citizen regardless of birth location. The fact that the parents are foreign nationals working on behalf of a foreign nation means that they are not subject to the jurisdiction of the US.

                Of course, now I’m curious how things would shake out if, for instance, a foreign state appointed a US citizen as their ambassador to the US…

                > The argument that illegal aliens are not subject to US jurisdiction would also be followed by the absurdity that law enforcement could not arrest them for crimes and ICE could not deport them... due to lack of jurisdiction.

                This makes sense, but I want to know more about the specific legal process happening here.

                I believe we can agree on the following. Let me know if you disagree with any of these bullet points:

                    - Ambassadors to the US are not subject to the jurisdiction of the US
                    - Children of ambassadors to the US who are born in the US are not citizens of the US, barring extenuating circumstances such as at least one parent being a US citizen themselves.
                    - The only available remedy in most cases for an ambassador violating US law is ejecting them from the country (deportation).
                
                In light of the above, if we assume in good faith that this administration believes that these people are not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, then deportation is consistent with how similar cases are handled when the person in question is a foreign diplomat.

                To put it another way, if the US could not deport people without jurisdiction we would not be able to eject foreign diplomats. Given that we have done that in the past, _clearly_ the US does not require jurisdiction to for at least _some_ deportations.

              • boroboro4 1 week ago
                First of all this particular ruling has nothing to do with merits of the case. It's very unlikely they will rule in favor of EO in the end, which is while possible (with this court everything is possible) still is highly unlikely.

                > This is roughly equivalent to the EPA or BATFE changing the way it interprets an longstanding statute

                Here we're talking about constitution amendment. While the court does reinterpret constitution from time to time it's not something they do very frequently. Especially if you talk about more than a century precedent. Especially if the original meaning was quite straightforward: obviously a foreign national who is present in the US without legal authorization is subject to the jurisdiction of the US, I haven't seen illegals running around killing people and police choosing to ignore them because, hm, they aren't subject to US jurisdiction.

                • 2 weeks ago
              • whatever1 2 weeks ago
                Very relevant to the high skilled workers who are for decades in a visa status waiting for their green card processing. Their children, if born in one of the 20ish states that did not take legal action against the executive order, will NOT be american citizens.

                In fact, I dont even know whether there will be a path to citizenship or legal status in general for their children, assuming they will probably be adults by the time their parents get their green card.

                • rawgabbit 2 weeks ago
                  Quote

                  >On his first day in office this year, he signed an executive order declaring that babies born in the U.S. may not be citizens if their parents were not here legally or if the parents were here legally but on a temporary basis like a work visa.

                  Does this mean for workers in the US on the H1B visa, their children who are born in the US will no longer automatically be US citizens?

                  • stego-tech 2 weeks ago
                    That’s the gist, yes, at least initially. It never stops at a given category of person, though, and you can assume next steps would be to set arbitrary milestones and dates around who is and is not a citizen based on birthright. Picture the glut of immigrants in the 1800 and 1900s who never got proper citizenship, or only had permanent residency. You can bet that the next step would be to say if you can’t point to a US Citizen direct ancestor after a given year, you’re no longer a citizen yourself.

                    That’s why revocation through Executive Order alone is so dangerous: its intent isn’t merely to get all undesirables today, but all undesirables ever, no matter what the definition of “undesirable” is.

                    • throwaway48476 2 weeks ago
                      Some of us can trace ancestry to service in the revolutionary war.
                      • baseballdork 2 weeks ago
                        Does this make you more of a citizen than literally any other? It shouldn't.
                        • jfengel 2 weeks ago
                          I can't. My family has been here for only about five generations.

                          Probably legally, but I doubt I can prove that.

                          Bye.

                          • 2 weeks ago
                        • reverendsteveii 2 weeks ago
                          As of right now it means they can still be kidnapped and deported while we figure out what that means.
                          • 2 weeks ago
                            • breakyerself 2 weeks ago
                              It's not a great sign that the supreme Court didn't uphold the injunctions, but I still have some hope that even this almost worthless supreme Court would overrule such a blatantly unconstitutional executive order.
                              • rkagerer 2 weeks ago
                                How long do you think it will take for a case with the meat of the matter to work its way to a Supreme Court decision? I heard there were multiple suits filed within days of the order being signed; which one is closest?
                                • breakyerself 2 weeks ago
                                  I wish I could tell you. There was something in the injunctions requiring some kind of relief for the specific parties in the cases so it seems like they're trying to avoid taking it head on.
                            • 2 weeks ago
                              • ChrisArchitect 2 weeks ago
                                • Marazan 2 weeks ago
                                  Federal court orders aren't federal it seems.
                                  • throwaway48476 2 weeks ago
                                    They're federal district courts.
                                    • esseph 2 weeks ago
                                      Not relevant in the history of the country until today.
                                      • Ancapistani 2 weeks ago
                                        A felon in Chicago who (illegally) possesses an unregistered machine gun cannot be prosecuted under the National Firearms Act, while the same person in the same circumstances in New Orleans can.

                                        There’s case law in the 7th Circuit that says that requiring a felon to register it would be tantamount to compelling self-incrimination. That case was not challenged by the BATFE at the SCOTUS level for fear of the precedent being made.

                                        As a result, NFA violations by anyone who cannot lawfully possess a firearm at all cannot be prosecuted in the 7th Circuit. They can still be prosecuted for simple possession, of course, but not for failing to register.

                                        • throwaway48476 2 weeks ago
                                          Circuit splits have existed since the beginning. It's always mattered.